So how is whm doing?

Haven't seen anyone talked about whm at all, so What are your thoughts on White Mage so far?

It's basically the same, not much different. The biggest difference I've seen so far is I'm 1-button spamming MORE :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Not much has changed. Just a few fine details - Misery is a bigger DPS loss, thin air is worse... but much is otherwise the same.

Over all I'd say it feels like a nerf that we would get during say 5.3 rather than an expansion with new skills.

Still getting used to the 1.5s cast time of Glare. Keep missing it since I'm so used to it aligning with the GCD.

So far, I haven't felt the change of Thin Air negatively. Actually like that one, since you can use it more targeted than before. Need to res someone? TA + rez, boom mana saved and you still have another charge left. With the old version, you felt compelled to "make use" of the time it was active, and it was annoying if you couldn't use it optimally.

And while I'm kind of disappointed that Glare and Holy got only so little potency upgrades, I must say the new holy is really pretty.

Overall, feeling pretty comfortable. The WHM was working well for me before, and continues to do so (lvl 85 now).

I feel like i'm the only one who is fine with the Thin Air change. it being on a 60s cooldown now mean that practically every Rez will cost no mana. Plus MP cost on some of the more expensive GCD heals got reduced & Lucid Dreaming buffed. Everything got improved to accommodate for Thin Air being "weaker"

I like 1.5 cast times more than I thought I would.

-Glare 3 and holy 3 are pretty
-having some movement wiggle room for casting and dodging is nice.
-plays more or less the same. Still able to heal dat tank.
-getting a replacement skill for fluid aura would have been neat.

Otherwise, it's same old straightforward whm. Functional as always.

It's WHM. Nothing new.

1.5s Glare does actually feel great, but WHM still feels neglected. Why does AST have a massive Star but Asylum is the same and Cure III is still a ridiculously small radius. Why is Holy the only healer aoe you can't weave with? Why did WHM's GCD heals only get 0.5 sec less cast time but AST got 1 sec? Why did Benefic get 100 potency and Cure get 50? Why is Thin Air nerfed? Why does Assize not have charges? Why is Aquaveil so bad compared to Exaltation? Why are lilies an even bigger potency loss? Why does WHM still have so few oGCDs to weave even after the 1.5s Glare change?

...And so on. It functions, but it could have been so much better. It's a shame, I don't dislike WHM, it's a comfy, straightforward healer, but that doesn't mean it has to be clunky and inferior. All the comfy dps classes have far better depth and flow.

WHM feels like WHM. Having gotten to 85 the only real difference I've noticed are the fancy spell effects of Holy III and Glare III.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's WHM. Nothing new.

1.5s Glare does actually feel great, but WHM still feels neglected. Why does AST have a massive Star but Asylum is the same and Cure III is still a ridiculously small radius. Why is Holy the only healer aoe you can't weave with? Why did WHM's GCD heals only get 0.5 sec less cast time but AST got 1 sec? Why did Benefic get 100 potency and Cure get 50? Why is Thin Air nerfed? Why does Assize not have charges? Why is Aquaveil so bad compared to Exaltation? Why are lilies an even bigger potency loss? Why does WHM still have so few oGCDs to weave even after the 1.5s Glare change?

...And so on. It functions, but it could have been so much better. It's a shame, I don't dislike WHM, it's a comfy, straightforward healer, but that doesn't mean it has to be clunky and inferior. All the comfy dps classes have far better depth and flow.

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It's remarkable how in their pursuit of accessibility, White Mage feels the most... incomplete. I almost get the impression they're afraid to expand beyond the tried and simple GCD healing paradigm they seem determined to force it into. I just can't wrap my head around how they could look at WHM and AST then conclude both are properly balanced. AST is just... better in virtually every way.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

AST is just... better in virtually every way.

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I think there will come a point in the not too distant future that WHM will have to have some sort of buff system, similar to AST.
There's just no feasible future for WHM - unless - the damage goes through the roof which again, is pretty useless with the potential of Sage.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It's remarkable how in their pursuit of accessibility, White Mage feels the most... incomplete. I almost get the impression they're afraid to expand beyond the tried and simple GCD healing paradigm they seem determined to force it into. I just can't wrap my head around how they could look at WHM and AST then conclude both are properly balanced. AST is just... better in virtually every way.

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In what way is AST better? (i have all jobs on 80 but didn't check AST since EW)
WHM just plays as WHM does, don't feel a big difference with EW. Decent DPS and great healing. Just did Duty and got Amaurot and all went fine, nobody died, almost 20% of group damage.

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Originally Posted by Anirab

In what way is AST better? (i have all jobs on 80 but didn't check AST since EW)
WHM just plays as WHM does, don't feel a big difference with EW. Decent DPS and great healing. Just did Duty and got Amaurot and all went fine, nobody died, almost 20% of group damage.

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AST equivalent skills of WHM's cost less and have a shorter cast time, even after the cost reduction WHM received. Coupled with Astrodyne and the nerf to Thin Air, AST now has the superior MP economy of the 2.
Exaltation's cure potency makes it more potent in the majority of cases in comparison to Aqua Veil.
Earthly Star's radius buff encapsulates the entirety of most arenas, meaning it will be incredibly rare that it misses healing allies and cleaving enemies.
AST's extensive oGCD kit allows it to continue to DPS while WHM would need to expend GCDs on heals to accomplish the same thing but when coupled with its raid contributions of cards and Divination, allow AST to surpass WHM in terms of rDPS.
Lilybell is still too restrictive in its usage vs Macrocosmos

I'm really enjoying new whm. The extra benison shield stack and the 60s cd targeted mini cd nice for smoothing out dungeon runs. Even the bell comfy despite long cooldown. So even if I get stuck with a tank that has subpar cd usage but pulls large regardless, there's enough tools in the kit to keep dpsing and keep them alive. I like bell because although it is 3m cd, with the structure of [2 large pulls -> boss] (and sometimes a mini pull on top of that) it gives me free license to stand in aoe and heal the tank at the same time, for 1 pull per midboss.

Rn I tend to regen tank, maybe apply regen again right as we reach the last pack, swiftcast holy, lily aoe, bubble, PoM, then into holy spam, saving benison to pair with regen so the ogcd isn't wasted. Tank will be fine on 1st pack if he uses cds at all after holy stun wears off in ~9s, so it usually 2nd pack where it is questionable, so I'd save wings for 2nd pack, but now have an extra benison and a 15% for 8s from aquaveil. regen + bubble usually sustains 3 mobs okay, so just having this little bit extra for 6-9 mobs feels so smooth. But most of all because it's ogcd and so I can use it while dodging or without interrupting dps. When bubble cd down, now can use bell + purposefully eat aoe.

Mixed feeling on the new cast time. I find it more awkward bc now when I press button based on the skill cast, it doesn't queue since its too far from the cd time. It will take a while to get used to it, but I didn't enjoy ast for the same reason. That said, it also gives you space to cast and dodge better, without clipping. Even slidecast will clip a bit, so whm feels much more mobile now.

Thin air change nice for ressing ppl but less nice for spamming skills.

I don't think all skill should get star treatment. Star seems absurd, might as well be raidwide aoe without a reticule if so large.
I like that c3 is dense heal with limited radius, so it rewards placement. But maybe the potency needs tweaking? idk. It feels okay to me.
I like playing reactive healer and whm rly nice for that. Sage seems so confusing like the buttons needlessly spread out and cleric stance but not cleric stance, but whm nice straightforward healer.

I love WHM but is agree it's not the best it could be.
One thing that always bothered me about the 5.0 rework is how Cure II and Afflatus Solace and Medica and Afflatus Rapture are the exact same buttons but for some reason need to be separate buttons. Under no circumstances have i ever found myself wanting to cast Cure 2 over Afflatus Solace when i had a lily stack ready. So why not turn these buttons into 1 via trait and use the extra room we freed up for things missing from WHM toolkit?

I'ts WHM, played some wall to wall pulls with the new instances and nothing feels much different.
if you like playing reactive (none shield with strong heal throughput) then that's what you still get as a playstyle.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I love WHM but is agree it's not the best it could be.
One thing that always bothered me about the 5.0 rework is how Cure II and Afflatus Solace and Medica and Afflatus Rapture are the exact same buttons but for some reason need to be separate buttons. Under no circumstances have i ever found myself wanting to cast Cure 2 over Afflatus Solace when i had a lily stack ready. So why not turn these buttons into 1 via trait and use the extra room we freed up for things missing from WHM toolkit?

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I generally try to keep at least one available for "I need to heal and move" moments, so if I only have one I'll usually use cure II/medica rather than burn it. If I've got more than one though yeah, no sense not using it.

• The new 1.5s nuke cast time feels better, but that's for healers in general; it looks visually weird for WHM, especially under the effect of PoM though. Our WoL must be -that- good with their stomach crunches.
• I get to weave in Benison & any other abilities freely. That's a positive. Lilies often sits at 3 stacks unused though...
• Speaking of lilies, I wish their potencies are set to be slightly stronger than regular Cure II. I wish for Misery's potency to be ramped up as well.
• Still haven't seen MP problem just yet outside super super super terrible runs, but we'll see for sure when raids are here.
• The Thin Air change has made me use it more strictly to get off a free raise rather than for Cure III or even Medica II. We are early into an expansion so I'm seeing a lot more deaths than usual, yet I expect this button will be more abandoned later on.
• My [1] hotkey will probably start to cry sometime soon... lol

Just got Lillybell, I mean, I just got Liturgy of the Bell and boy is that skill underwhelming.
The cooldown is obviously too long, and the potency is far too weak if you dont get hit enough.
Only really useful for Ahk Morns, but I dont think a skill should only have a use against an extremely small selection of opponents.

Whm is ok and that’s it. Astro is just way better in all situations and has infinite mana and a million ogcd tools.

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Originally Posted by lilwitch

I don't think all skill should get star treatment. Star seems absurd, might as well be raidwide aoe without a reticule if so large.
I like that c3 is dense heal with limited radius, so it rewards placement. But maybe the potency needs tweaking? idk. It feels okay to me.

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Cure III requires placement, it doesn't really reward it. It's 400 less potency than Medica II and only just equal to a Plenary Rapture. The only place Cure III ever shone was rare mechanics with continuous high damage, such as Tumult or Terminal during prog. Now Lilybell does that job. There is almost no place for a 600 potency GCD with such limitations. 600 isn't even that great anymore.

While Star is absurd, I can see why they did it. The unfortunate reality is you have no control over whether players stand in Asylum or Cure III radius. Especially in content like Alliance raids, these abilities often just won't catch everyone and you'll be forced to GCD heal for the 3 people out in Narnia. The idea of a reward for placement sounds good, but the content doesn't allow for it outside of organized high end raids and trials.

There's also the obvious fact that giving one pure healer a massive radius on their ground placement heal and not the other, puts the first at a massive advantage. Why play WHM and try to get people to bunch up for your mana draining 600 potency GCD, when AST is detonating a free 720 potency nuclear heal-bomb that even deals damage instead of costing it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Cure III requires placement, it doesn't really reward it. It's 400 less potency than Medica II and only just equal to a Plenary Rapture. The only place Cure III ever shone was rare mechanics with continuous high damage, such as Tumult or Terminal during prog. Now Lilybell does that job. There is almost no place for a 600 potency GCD with such limitations. 600 isn't even that great anymore.

While Star is absurd, I can see why they did it. The unfortunate reality is you have no control over whether players stand in Asylum or Cure III radius. Especially in content like Alliance raids, these abilities often just won't catch everyone and you'll be forced to GCD heal for the 3 people out in Narnia. The idea of a reward for placement sounds good, but the content doesn't allow for it outside of organized high end raids and trials.

There's also the obvious fact that giving one pure healer a massive radius on their ground placement heal and not the other, puts the first at a massive advantage. Why play WHM and try to get people to bunch up for your mana draining 600 potency GCD, when AST is detonating a free 720 potency nuclear heal-bomb that even deals damage instead of costing it.

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I would be all for a heal four that really hones in the fact the white mage is the defacto king of pure healing by providing a % based regen effect based on health that provides more healing as the target gets weaker. A supreme heal defining spell maybe. Cure 4 600 potency+regen 2.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

I would be all for a heal four that really hones in the fact the white mage is the defacto king of pure healing by providing a % based regen effect based on health that provides more healing as the target gets weaker. A supreme heal defining spell maybe. Cure 4 600 potency+regen 2.

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WHM doesn't need more direct healing abilities. We have a plethora of those. We need an overhaul because some minor rework isn't gonna cut it at this point.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's 400 less potency than Medica II and only just equal to a Plenary Rapture. The only place Cure III ever shone was rare mechanics with continuous high damage, such as Tumult or Terminal during prog. Now Lilybell does that job. There is almost no place for a 600 potency GCD with such limitations. 600 isn't even that great anymore.

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I think that rly lacking any hint of nuance. Sure, m2 does more over time, but that's the tradeoff of a HoT - more if you can afford to wait.
Liturgy on 3min cd. C3's the highest group heal that's spammable, and you can thin air at least one of them if necessary. Idk, it just feels comfy to me, and it's easy enough to precast for stacks. If ppl spread out, can plenary too yeah.

WHM is the same for better or worse.

Agree with Lilybell's needing a CD reduction because 3 is way too long same goes with Sage's Haima, which should be 90s

1.5s feel great so no more clipping and proper weaving.

WHM not having a raid buff is something they want to avoid as they likely want AST and SCH to be buffers while SGE and WHM are personal.

They probably want WHM to be simple and there's not more to add to simple.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

WHM is the same for better or worse.

Agree with Lilybell's needing a CD reduction because 3 is way too long same goes with Sage's Haima, which should be 90s

1.5s feel great so no more clipping and proper weaving.

WHM not having a raid buff is something they want to avoid as they likely want AST and SCH to be buffers while SGE and WHM are personal.

They probably want WHM to be simple and there's not more to add to simple.

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Being simple doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and the changes WHM got are far from making the job simpler. Bell is so niche that its practically useless in every situation outside of its niche as its just a worse Earthly Star for the most part. The Nerf to Thin Air has also made death much harder to recover from as a WHM since you're pretty much reliant on Lucid Dreaming as we lose any Lilies we had while Assize barely breaks even with Glare and is completely eclipsed by our still costly GCD healing toolkit. All WHM got that I would count as a net positive thing is Aqua Veil and even that pales in comparison to AST's Exaltation.

Overall this expansion has been horrible for WHM

Make lilies give mana and make Misery DPS neutral and WHM will be significantly more competitive with AST.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

Make lilies give mana and make Misery DPS neutral and WHM will be significantly more competitive with AST.

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Maybe it would be competitive with SGE but AST is so horribly overtuned that even with these changes it wouldn't be enough.

While I've yet to touch the Extreme trials, White Mage, as usual, feels very samey. Sure, the cast time reduction on Glare is a joy to have, but otherwise it's... well... there just isn't anything to say? Our numbers increase over ten levels?

I've been pleasantly surprised that Liturgy of the Bell also triggers on DoT ticks on you, so its optimal usage is expanded from Akh Morns and Tumults to Almagest and its clones, but otherwise White Mage doesn't really dazzle or shine, despite the spell effects.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Being simple doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and the changes WHM got are far from making the job simpler. Bell is so niche that its practically useless in every situation outside of its niche as its just a worse Earthly Star for the most part. The Nerf to Thin Air has also made death much harder to recover from as a WHM since you're pretty much reliant on Lucid Dreaming as we lose any Lilies we had while Assize barely breaks even with Glare and is completely eclipsed by our still costly GCD healing toolkit. All WHM got that I would count as a net positive thing is Aqua Veil and even that pales in comparison to AST's Exaltation.

Overall this expansion has been horrible for WHM

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I don't disagree, I think WHM has a lot of room for a creative design but I think at the end of the DAY, SE intends to keep WHM as brain dead as it is because it's the simple job for beginners.

Personally, WHM should have had more complexity toward level cap. Thin Air is a nerf for there's two charges so it's somewhat flexible for rezzing now. People complained about WHM having unlimited MP but honestly WHM rn is starved for MP. They should have kept Assize's 10% MP refund.


SB was where WHM was truly rock bottom with has useless the gauge was and Plenary unusable. EW whm is virtually the same as ShB so it just lacks in creativity. I don't understand why Misery is a dps loss when they want you to GCD heal.

At the end of the day, WHM's fate was sealed when they deemed it to be beginner-friendly,

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Originally Posted by lilwitch

I think that rly lacking any hint of nuance. Sure, m2 does more over time, but that's the tradeoff of a HoT - more if you can afford to wait.
Liturgy on 3min cd. C3's the highest group heal that's spammable, and you can thin air at least one of them if necessary. Idk, it just feels comfy to me, and it's easy enough to precast for stacks. If ppl spread out, can plenary too yeah.

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After 6 seconds Medica II is almost the same potency as Cure III. After 9 seconds it outright beats it. Raidwide mechanics very rarely hit within less than 6-9 seconds of each other, which means waiting for the HoT isn't much of a tradeoff and Medica II is almost always better. For the rare situations (usually once or twice per fight) where you get back-to-back heavy raid damage, Lilybell covers it. Cure III spam just isn't necessary anywhere, it's a new healer panic reaction.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

They probably want WHM to be simple and there's not more to add to simple.

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Even if they didn't add many more buttons there are plenty of improvements they could make.

-Thin Air nerf reverted.
-Assize gets 2 charges
-Tetra either gets 2 charges or a cooldown reduction
-Aquaveil actually does something useful like Exaltation
-WHM gets an oGCD that grants some lilies (WHM is the only healer that starts empty on their main heal until 30 sec into a fight)
-Lilies become dps neutral.
-Freecure is deleted.
-Holy, Medica I+II, Cure II have a 1.5 sec cast.
-Cure III radius increased to 8-10y and potency to 700.

Sounds like a lot of "buffs" until you realize AST would still be the better healer. There are so many QoL tweaks and small improvements WHM should have got, without even needing to change the class much.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

I don't disagree, I think WHM has a lot of room for a creative design but I think at the end of the DAY, SE intends to keep WHM as brain dead as it is because it's the simple job for beginners.

Personally, WHM should have had more complexity toward level cap. Thin Air is a nerf for there's two charges so it's somewhat flexible for rezzing now. People complained about WHM having unlimited MP but honestly WHM rn is starved for MP. They should have kept Assize's 10% MP refund.


SB was where WHM was truly rock bottom with has useless the gauge was and Plenary unusable. EW whm is virtually the same as ShB so it just lacks in creativity. I don't understand why Misery is a dps loss when they want you to GCD heal.

At the end of the day, WHM's fate was sealed when they deemed it to be beginner-friendly,

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If SE's design is to make WHM brain dead easy, they're failing horribly.

I absolutely love the shorter cast time on Glare. It just plays 1000% better with being able to weave in oGCDs. I've been waiting for this for so long. Much more fluid and smooth.

Aside from that, it's almost the same as before. I can't say anything about the lvl 90 ability yet.

But now that lilies are such a DPS loss I'll probably have them full most times outside of large dungeon pulls (How many enemies for Misery to not be a DPS loss?) or when you need a lot of AoE heals.

The single target damage reduction skill is nice, but why does AST and SGE have a healing attached to it and WHM not? Why is WHM the only healer without any sort of AoE shield? Why are some of WHM's casts still longer than most other healer spells (Cure II now feels long somehow...)? Why does Freecure still exist?

Same old, same old.
If anything, I feel like I really have to keep an eye on my mana when spamming stone, which was never an issue before.

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Originally Posted by Limonia

The single target damage reduction skill is nice, but why does AST and SGE have a healing attached to it and WHM not? Why is WHM the only healer without any sort of AoE shield? Why are some of WHM's casts still longer than most other healer spells (Cure II now feels long somehow...)? Why does Freecure still exist?

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SGE's skill is just a healing buff.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It's remarkable how in their pursuit of accessibility, White Mage feels the most... incomplete. I almost get the impression they're afraid to expand beyond the tried and simple GCD healing paradigm they seem determined to force it into. I just can't wrap my head around how they could look at WHM and AST then conclude both are properly balanced. AST is just... better in virtually every way.

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I'm starting to think they're not even "meant" to be balanced. Out of the 4 healers, WHM is the only one a brand new player can start with, so it's likely intentionally designed to be as idiot-proof as possible, and if anyone wants anything more ...exciting, well, there's any of the other 3 for that, specially since AST is just WHM, but better.

I'd say this is also true for tanks, to an extend, but even the simplest of tanks (yes, I'm looking at WAR) is still fairly complex next to WHM.

So I finally got some time to play white mage after playing sage in tower of zot. I got to say the experience is night and day, sage can weave in the heals while I need to gcd heal as white mage especially for the last 2 groups.

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Originally Posted by rewd

SGE's skill is just a healing buff.

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Ah, I get what you mean; I was comparing Aquaveil to Exaltation and Taurochole though. Not the ability SGE gets at the same lvl as WHM.

the mp economy on whm is atrocious. dying once at any point is unrecoverable unless you have loads of piety melded



meanwhile, every other healer is mp positive without amy piety