Sage - Single target damage v other healers

Let's get the obvious out of the way, ok it's a healer not a dps.
It does however have to compare with the other healers - or players will simply go back to those.

So, what do we think about Sage single target dps, which the class does need for various solo quests etc?
To me is feels a bit lacking, especially compared to the other healing classes,

I feel that Ekurasia needs to be off GCD. It's really clunky at the moment.
Phlegma cooldown could use some tweaking. Maybe down to 30 seconds from 45.
SGE suffers wall to wall big pulls. I can go all day with my AST but SGE struggles a bit to keep up after expanding all my GCDs.

It's not difficult to give a new healer comparable ST DPS to an existing healer. Sage is a bit different by having to augment their ST skill to make it a DoT, but it still accomplishes the exact same thing.

Sage does have Phelgma as well, which you will want to get those two charges in the raid's burst window. I think it is the highest potency attack any healer has access to with the exception of Misery, but Misery doesn't work the same way. This should give some separation but it we just have to wait and see as it is probably still a bit early to tell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

It's not difficult to give a new healer comparable ST DPS to an existing healer. Sage is a bit different by having to augment their ST skill to make it a DoT, but it still accomplishes the exact same thing.

Sage does have Phelgma as well, which you will want to get those two charges in the raid's burst window. I think it is the highest potency attack any healer has access to with the exception of Misery, but Misery doesn't work the same way. This should give some separation but it we just have to wait and see as it is probably still a bit early to tell.

---

When you adjust for cooldown time, Phlegma is the highest potency healer attack, full stop. Misery can only theoretically be used once every 90s. Phlegma's CD is half that but isn't half the potency.

And that's before you consider that Misery can't be used until 1 min 30 seconds after a fight's start at the earliest, while Phlegma is frontloaded and able to be used twice in an opener, and once every 45s thereafter. It's more comparable to assize in this way, but it outclasses assize for single target too, but assize is at least off global...

And then, there's still another difference. Misery costs 4 GCDs (so an average potency of 225), which is why it's been considered terrible for ST since even before endwalker (but if you can't avoid GCD healing, it helps make up the loss). Just spamming the (older, lower potency) glare is better, and the new glare leads even more.

-

As far as healer DPS goes, I expect sage will be the strongest. But we need a bit more time and logs to know for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LachleinStratos

SGE suffers wall to wall big pulls. I can go all day with my AST but SGE struggles a bit to keep up after expanding all my GCDs.

---

I kinda disagree on this. Sage as a bunch of really powerful tools to deal with mass pulls. You just need to be careful not to overlap them.
Thats been my experience. Even in the runs I've had where the party was subpar (not doing enough AoE dps, dragging it out for me and the Tank) E-Diag spam was able to triage long enough for Addersgall to come back.
But thats kinda true for all Healers. If the party is slow enough that you're forced to exhaust everything down to relying on GCD spam, every healer struggles a bit. AST and WHM less so because of Cure IIs potency but the MP drain if you go too hard on it can cause problems.

The most success i've had with mass pulls was rotating E-Diag and Toxikon while layering in Taurochole, Kerachole and Holos to keep the damage reduction on the tank for as long as possible. It almost seems a c rime that Haima and Panhaima dont share a cooldown AND stack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Assize and Phlegma are off global

---

Phlegma isn't off global cooldown. It's a spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrimGale

Phlegma isn't off global cooldown. It's a spell.

---

Oh, huh, thanks. I'll fix that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

When you adjust for cooldown time, Phlegma is the highest potency healer attack, full stop. Misery can only theoretically be used once every 90s. Phlegma's CD is half that but isn't half the potency.

And that's before you consider that Misery can't be used until 1 min 30 seconds after a fight's start at the earliest, while Phlegma is frontloaded and able to be used twice in an opener, and once every 45s thereafter. It's more comparable to assize in this way, but it outclasses assize for single target too, but assize is at least off global...

And then, there's still another difference. Misery costs 4 GCDs (so an average potency of 225), which is why it's been considered terrible for ST since even before endwalker (but if you can't avoid GCD healing, it helps make up the loss). Just spamming the (older, lower potency) glare is better, and the new glare leads even more.

-

As far as healer DPS goes, I expect sage will be the strongest. But we need a bit more time and logs to know for sure.

---

How does Phlegma outclass Assize? It has more potency, but it doesn't mean anything because it's a GCD skill that replaces a Dosis , so the effective DPS gain is only 180p. Assize is also much better with 2+ targets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LachleinStratos

I feel that Ekurasia needs to be off GCD. It's really clunky at the moment.
SGE suffers wall to wall big pulls. I can go all day with my AST but SGE struggles a bit to keep up after expanding all my GCDs.

---

I disagree on both, Eukrasia feels weird due to how different it is from other tools but its not clunky, if anything being able to toggle it off would help but making it an oGCD in a class so oGCD heavy like Sge i feel it would be a mistake and about the pulls, maybe you don't understand/use the tools properly? So far I've been doing the msq on it (lv89) and a bunch of the leveling shb dungeons and never struggled not even in pulls that were famous for being hard (i.e wall to walls in holmister or mt gulg), in fact my impression when clearing those was a big "holy shit this is strong af"

If anything I'd say that the job suffers from having mechanics like addersting which you barely use aside out of combat scenarios due to the dps cost generating the resource has or holos which is a worse kerachole and could appreciate its change from hp heal to shield heal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

How does Phlegma outclass Assize? It has more potency, but it doesn't mean anything because it's a GCD skill that replaces a Dosis , so the effective DPS gain is only 180p. Assize is also much better with 2+ targets.

---

This thread is discussing single target DPS, which is the most relevant in raid settings. That said, I do acknowledge the limitations in comparisons. Assize is off global, Phlegma is GCD, and Misery is 4x GCD. I still think Phlegma is very strong.

Assize and Misery are both very good in casual/dungeon settings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

This thread is discussing single target DPS, which is the most relevant in raid settings. That said, I do acknowledge the limitations in comparisons. Assize is off global, Phlegma is GCD, and Misery is 4x GCD. I still think Phlegma is very strong.

Assize and Misery are both very good in casual/dungeon settings.

---

I know this is about ST. You said that Phlegma outclasses Assize but you didn't reply to my question. Phlegma is strong and I agree, but it isn't better than Assize.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

I know this is about ST. You said that Phlegma outclasses Assize but you didn't reply to my question. Phlegma is strong and I agree, but it isn't better than Assize.

---

So, again, we can't compare them on every point because none of the abilities are "exactly the same but only differing in potency" or anything like that. Trying to look at the whole picture - well if you look at WHM for example, it has glare, dia, assize, and PoM in its standard rotation. Misery if it comes up but you actually want to try to avoid it - using it is mitigation for a failure case.

Phlegma is sort of comparable to assize in that it is ST burst DPS. A WHM is going to use assize in its opener, and every 45s thereafter. A sage is going to use 2x phlegma in its opener, and sometimes every 45s thereafter but the 2 charges mean it can hold one to line up with burst windows.

Now in a dungeon setting, of course, 400 potency with no diminishing return, assize is super good. In a single-target raid setting, 400 potency burst is... not bad, but not *that* good either. And then it won't line up with raid windows very often, because you have to use it on CD or lose potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

I know this is about ST. You said that Phlegma outclasses Assize but you didn't reply to my question. Phlegma is strong and I agree, but it isn't better than Assize.

---

Phelgma is stronger on ST. I think that is what it boils down to. It can't outclass Assize as the two skills are classed and function differently. There's no contest to be won by either skill here.

(I am not trying to cause trouble with this but wanted to add.)

Some starting points:
- Phlegma is a spell and thus a GCD
- Assize is an ability and thus an oGCD
- Dosis is a spell
- Glare is a spell

Because Assize is an oGCD a WHM can could use Glare and kinda clip Assize in the 1 second left in their GCD. So for one GCD a WHM's output is more like Glare + something like 80% (minimum) Assize. (effectively because you might clip into your next Glare.

While for SGE Phlegma takes up a whole GCD in place of Dosis. So for one GCD a SGE's output is more like Dosis + (Phlegma - Dosis). Phlegma may not outpace Assize usage because in practice Phlegma's potency is effectively reduced to maybe 20%? if you wanted to compare it indirectly to Assize.

I don't have any numbers to share but intuitively (Glare + Assize) > (Phlegma) every 45s. I think that is what some posters were getting at earlier too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superskull85

(I am not trying to cause trouble with this but wanted to add.)

Some starting points:
- Phlegma is a spell and thus a GCD
- Assize is an ability and thus an oGCD
- Dosis is a spell
- Glare is a spell

Because Assize is an oGCD a WHM can could use Glare and kinda clip Assize in the 1 second left in their GCD. So for one GCD a WHM's output is more like Glare + something like 80% (minimum) Assize. (effectively because you might clip into your next Glare.

While for SGE Phlegma takes up a whole GCD in place of Dosis. So for one GCD a SGE's output is more like Dosis + (Phlegma - Dosis). Phlegma may not outpace Assize usage because in practice Phlegma's potency is effectively reduced to maybe 20%? if you wanted to compare it indirectly to Assize.

I don't have any numbers to share but intuitively (Glare + Assize) > (Phlegma) every 45s. I think that is what some posters were getting at earlier too.

---

You don't clip Assize in Glare. OGCDs take 0.7 seconds animation lock usually. Glare is 1.5 second cast timer with a 2.5 sec recast, so you can fit an Assize in a GCD. Notable exceptions to the 0.7 second animation lock would be like RDM's displacement (because moving back causes a 1.1 animation lock).