What will the Endwalker Changes do to Job Skill Ceilings and Floors?

So we're seeing a lot of job changes in Endwalker, many of which are affecting the challenge of these systems. Some classes are seeing activities made easier (WHM faster GCDs, longer BRD songs/DoTs, removed MNK positionals), while others are receiving powerful new aids (MNK dash to allies).

How are these changes going to impact the difficulty of the jobs you play and the relative execution difficulty of jobs? Who will be the easiest? Who will be more challenging?

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

How are these changes going to impact the difficulty of the jobs you play and the relative execution difficulty of jobs? Who will be the easiest? Who will be more challenging?

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Pretty much everything seems to become easier so far especially MNK and SMN with their reworks. Everything else is getting some buffs and new strong skills. That said, nothing will be more challenging and while i was convinced that DNC has been the most braindead and self-carry class in this game, i´m convinced that the new SMN will fight against it about the throne. The primal - loop and 1 button for any actions looks boring af. Being a good DNC is probably going to be harder than being a good SMN.
Why MNK got positionals removed is a mystery. There was no need to do that.

If the content isn´t somehow challenging and mobility-depended, it´ll get stale and boring really quick gameplay-wise. (Again...)

A lot of classes are getting dumbed down to the point there is going to be little room for error and if there is an issue it will be a player issue not doing battle encounter mechanics.

Monk is getting dumbed down, SMN overall will be dumbed down, MCH is already dumbed down, BLM no longer manages Enochian, DRG no longer manages BotD and probably a few others.

I feel like the most challenging will be classes with high APM to do a whole lot of work classes with less APM will have to do.

That's kinda the parallel with say GNB and WAR. GNB does a whole bunch of attacks while WAR only does a couple and the GNB is effectively doing 3x the work for similar damage.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

BLM no longer manages Enochian

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This is not true. The only change is that Enochian is automatically applied when you go into Astral Fire or Umbral Ice from neutral. This means that you no longer need to hit the action 'Enochian' but you still have to maintain Astral Fire or Umbral Ice in order to reap the benefits of Enochian or to gain Polyglot. You still manage it in the exact same way you did before, it just saves you popping a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

This is not true. The only change is that Enochian is automatically applied when you go into Astral Fire or Umbral Ice from neutral. This means that you no longer need to hit the action 'Enochian' but you still have to maintain Astral Fire or Umbral Ice in order to reap the benefits of Enochian or to gain Polyglot. You still manage it in the exact same way you did before, it just saves you popping a cooldown.

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this , and Drg didnt managed BotD at all...even if u didnt hit anything u could refresh it.

NIN is the DPS I know best, so I'll just comment on that, but it's not a very interesting set of changes. The new actions add just a little bit. Phantom Kamaitachi is just an extra Ranged attack during Bunshin. Most of the time it's a tiny DPS gain, but if you are forced out of melee range and you save Phantom for that, it's a lot better. But NIN already had Raiton for that, so Phantom is really unimportant. On the other hand, Raiju is an animation-lock and gapcloser, twice in a row. It's a moderate DPS gain, but restricts your movement, which can be dangerous. Similar to Assassinate which NIN is losing.

The skill ceiling is pretty much unchanged. The new abilities aren't hard to optimize, and don't increase CPM at all. There's a potential optimization where you count your GCDs to see if using Phantom costs you an Aeolian Edge, but it's not really a practical thing to do. Mostly you just use the new abilities when they light up. Maybe you save them if mechanics force you away from the boss. I wouldn't say they require much skill to use.

The Raiju combo increase the skill floor slightly. It changes your rotation a bit, but it's not hard to utilize correctly: It's not an oGCD weave, it doesn't interrupt your combo (I think), and it gives you a long time to use it. The biggest issue is just the frequent animation locks, since it's a gap-closer, that might get unskilled players murdered by mechanics.

I'd rather hear about SAM. It probably changed the most (aside from the MNK/SMN reworks) in terms of floor and ceiling, because of the charges on Tsubame. I dunno how much that changes the rotation though. Does it make it more forgiving? Or make it even longer and more complex?

They are obviously raising the floor a bit overall with the various QoL changes (such as Enochian, or the changes to make most buffs on a 60/120 CD, or even PLD getting a longer ranged combo).
But the ceiling is not going to be changing much.

More and more changes to make things easier, if the content itself is also easier (judging from the undertuned Tower of Zot and multiple sources say its routine and run of the mill) then its just a huge blow to challenge.

i dont understand the end game here with this approach, if content as a whole has less mechs and the jobs require less to know then what exalty are we playing? a mario game with no pitfalls because they are a "nuisance to casual players"

Tower of Zot is MSQ. MSQ dungeons are very much run of the mill by design. They claim Endwalker will be bigger then anything they've done so here's to hoping we get a more current Mario games with the first half being EZ and the 2nd half being much more difficult and counts as the real game.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Tower of Zot is MSQ. MSQ dungeons are very much run of the mill by design. They claim Endwalker will be bigger then anything they've done so here's to hoping we get a more current Mario games with the first half being EZ and the 2nd half being much more difficult and counts as the real game.

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all of the levleing dungeons are almost better than most of the 80s, Mt gulg and Qitana raval being superior to the pick and mix of unmemorable dungeons and most certainly Relict and paglth'an...ya know the "expert ones"

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Pretty much everything seems to become easier so far especially MNK and SMN with their reworks. Everything else is getting some buffs and new strong skills. That said, nothing will be more challenging and while i was convinced that DNC has been the most braindead and self-carry class in this game, i´m convinced that the new SMN will fight against it about the throne. The primal - loop and 1 button for any actions looks boring af. Being a good DNC is probably going to be harder than being a good SMN.
Why MNK got positionals removed is a mystery. There was no need to do that.

If the content isn´t somehow challenging and mobility-depended, it´ll get stale and boring really quick gameplay-wise. (Again...)

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I'd actually say that MNK will require more brain-power outside of the burst phase.
And good riddance to the awful burst phase it was just awkward unless you had 100% uptime and even then you needed perfect sks more or less and it became misaligned.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

all of the levleing dungeons are almost better than most of the 80s, Mt gulg and Qitana raval being superior to the pick and mix of unmemorable dungeons and most certainly Relict and paglth'an...ya know the "expert ones"

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I think the only one out there of those listed that are superior would have to be Mt Gulg. The rest really feel the same. So I get your point. I think the content I enjoy the most even now is Ivalice Raids.

Then you have Bozja. I adore Bozja.

I feel like when it comes to Roulettes they have to make the content easy for dailies. Which of course leads to less challenging or engaging stuff.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

They are obviously raising the floor a bit overall with the various QoL changes (such as Enochian, or the changes to make most buffs on a 60/120 CD, or even PLD getting a longer ranged combo).
But the ceiling is not going to be changing much.

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You have the definition for "skill floor" backwards. A skill floor is the minimum amount of skill needed to play and enjoy a game/class/piece of content. So any QoL changes that make a class easier or more accessible would be lowering the floor, not raising it. Likewise, a skill ceiling is how much skill or practice you need to play at the highest tier of play.

I'm more curious about Reaper's hypes.
Back in SB, Tons of people said they're going to main SAM and as the result the first month of stormblood are flooded with low-performances SAM everywhere that almost became a meme.
I can foresee some Reapers use the wrong side teleport/Gate and die gracefully to AoE.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

I'm more curious about Reaper's hypes.
Back in SB, Tons of people said they're going to main SAM and as the result the first month of stormblood are flooded with low-performances SAM everywhere that almost became a meme.
I can foresee some Reapers use the wrong side teleport/Gate and die gracefully to AoE.

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I do think history is going to repeat itself, Reaper and SAM I just think appeals a lot more to the '' average joe, I just want to push buttons ''.
I actually stayed away from SAM for a long time because I didn't want to play something where people would think that of me and also I don't like to play what is the most popular I feel like I am '' just another X '' at that point.
I do love MNK and I've played it since ARR but it's one of the reasons why I've stuck with it too.

With Reaper tho I don't rly care and I generally don't anymore.
I am just going to play what I want and I may very well swap over to Reaper if I think it's more fun than MNK.
I am still not 100% sure if I am going to level Reaper first and do the MSQ on it or do it on MNK right away, but I feel like I've played MNK for so long and suffered through it that at this point imma just do what I want and not care.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves, I am a good SAM player and been praised for it many times ( yes it's that bad with SAM players that when someone is good they stand out... ).
If people want to meme and judge then I mean if it's the same as with SAM I won't really disagree in a general sense, but personally I won't worry because I do know that I am capable and put the work in.
It's going to hurt my soul watching a lot of other Reaper players who don't do the same way that it hurts my soul watching a lot if not perhaps even most SAM and MNK players.

Lets do our part to disprove the meme.
At least about ourselves xD.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I do think history is going to repeat itself, Reaper and SAM I just think appeals a lot more to the '' average joe, I just want to push buttons ''.
I actually stayed away from SAM for a long time because I didn't want to play something where people would think that of me and also I don't like to play what is the most popular I feel like I am '' just another X '' at that point.
I do love MNK and I've played it since ARR but it's one of the reasons why I've stuck with it too.

With Reaper tho I don't rly care and I generally don't anymore.
I am just going to play what I want and I may very well swap over to Reaper if I think it's more fun than MNK.
I am still not 100% sure if I am going to level Reaper first and do the MSQ on it or do it on MNK right away, but I feel like I've played MNK for so long and suffered through it that at this point imma just do what I want and not care.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves, I am a good SAM player and been praised for it many times ( yes it's that bad with SAM players that when someone is good they stand out... ).
If people want to meme and judge then I mean if it's the same as with SAM I won't really disagree in a general sense, but personally I won't worry because I do know that I am capable and put the work in.
It's going to hurt my soul watching a lot of other Reaper players who don't do the same way that it hurts my soul watching a lot if not perhaps even most SAM and MNK players.

Lets do our part to disprove the meme.
At least about ourselves xD.

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Nice comments, I totally agree.
we main monk had it rough more than any other melees, to the point that we had stop getting upset and not expect anything fancy anymore, and yet they still managed to disappoint us.

I stopped playing MNK in 5.4 and played tons of SAM and DRG knowingly I won't main these two but I still need to have one melee main and I don't want to be Reaper main if I still have hope for MNK.

The worst part is when I saw the job trailer and I went back to play MNK to see how rusty I am since 5.4 but you know what ?
My skills barely dropped at all despite haven't touch it for months, if it were the old GL mechanics, my skills would have dropped drastically for sure.
That's how boring MNK was in 5.4.

I've bet everything on this rework because I still really want to main MNK. This Blitz system looks promising and I've planned to spend the first 2 precious hours on early access to try it on dummy solely to test the new MNK.

For me, It's the moment of truth.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

all of the levleing dungeons are almost better than most of the 80s, Mt gulg and Qitana raval being superior to the pick and mix of unmemorable dungeons and most certainly Relict and paglth'an...ya know the "expert ones"

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you could add Heroes' gauntlet, so three bland expert dungeon in a row, it was hard to motivate myself to do expert roulette those last month because of that...


Also for Sam vs Reaper debate the difference is at least a bad reaper is still bringing 3% raidwide dps every 120 sec + 100 potency regen aoe heal every 30 sec, a bad sam who doesn't dps bring nothing.

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Originally Posted by Raidoser

you could add Heroes' gauntlet, so three bland expert dungeon in a row, it was hard to motivate myself to do expert roulette those last month because of that...


Also for Sam vs Reaper debate the difference is at least a bad reaper is still bringing 3% raidwide dps every 120 sec + 100 potency regen aoe heal every 30 sec, a bad sam who doesn't dps bring nothing.

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A bad reaper will also do less dps than a bad sam, so that point is quite moot

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

They claim Endwalker will be bigger then anything they've done

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SE claimed that again and again. In other words "We´ve bigger dumbdowns planned for the whole game, so don´t worry. You´ll still be able to enjoy the world of Eorzea with more powerful skills, less brain activity and Netflix nearby. Please don´t forget to subscribe for this ̶g̶̶a̶̶m̶̶i̶̶n̶̶g̶-experience!".

Anything which is "bigger" might be the new island. Everything else is just copy & paste and downscaled / -reworked for whatever reason. Even the new mobs are just reskins from e.g. gobbues once again. I won´t trust in any words from Yoshi or SE. They made even drastical changes like 1h right before the patch released.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

A bad reaper will also do less dps than a bad sam, so that point is quite moot

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i can see you saying that because maybe our definition of bad players differ, this is how i see it for DPS Job.

Bad Player : Average life time : the time between his raise and the next boss mechanic or will stack vulnerability throught the roof at least helping some healer test their limit of "how long can i maintain that dude alive until he get one shot ??", can still hit some of his buttons like cooldown (mostly the offensive one).

Average Player : Dodge most mechanic, do the basic raid mechanic to avoid a wipe, can do his rotation but it isn't optimised.

Good Player : Dodge everything so healer forget he even exist, optimize his rotation/cooldown while using his support skill to help the raid, adapt his gameplay to the situation if needed.

Unicorn Player : Perfect dodging, perfect rotation and use of his support skill, is polite, respectful, patient, helpful, always on time, come with beautiful long blonde hair on his magnificient white horse, is the untold fantasm of all static leader but most importantly doesn't exist.