I would like to preface this by stating that I am not an end game raider. I haven't done the current raid tier nor have I even stepped foot in Ultimate content. I am here merely as a WHM player that has been here since ARR to express my concerns about my class and how I believe it can be improved upon. My goal with this post is to improve the QoL for WHM as a whole, while also improving upon its current toolkit in a way that will allow WHM to remain a powerful Healer choice for end game (and as I said, I'm not a Raider so please take my suggestions with a grain of salt).
1st off, rework and reintroduce old skills as low level version of our existing toolkit. Since the trait system can be utilized to enhance these skills at the appropriate levels, this not only prevents the issue of button bloat but it also enforces good learning habits for players to take with them as they level up the job. Skills like Fluid Aura, Stoneskin and Divine Seal (or Largesse for those of you that joined when SB was released) could all be reworked and reintroduced to be the low level version of Aqua Veil, Divine Benison and Temperance respectfully so that players learning to play with WHM are given their toolkits at a much earlier stage and learn how to handle them each as time goes on with each upgrade coming more naturally in the leveling process instead of just being handed new tools at the tail end of leveling and having a harder time of it because they haven't learned how to properly manage them at lower levels.
Secondly, the return of an AoE DoT. This is more a suggestion applicable to all healers really than simply WHM alone but I am suggesting just to complete our "rotation". If Healers can, at bare minimum, maintain a Single Target Nuke and Dot, why should our AoE rotation be any different? If the concern is that it will increase healer damage too much, couldn't they simply make the AoE DoT apply the same type of DoT as the single target version in a similar fashion to Thunder on BLM so as to prevent that from happening? This not only gives healers something else to do in AoE trash pulls apart from their AoE nuke skill but it alleviates the burden of these pulls by allowing the mobs to die quicker as well since now Healers won't have to manually apply their DoT on each individual target.
To my next point, I would like to address the Lily system. With the changes to cast times on our attack spells as well as the increase in potency coming in EW, the Lily system is currently looking to become obsolete just when it finally got a solid foundation in ShB. To address this issue, I would to expand the Lily System to remain relevant for WHM with the introduction of 2 new Afflatus abilities, Afflatus Reminiscence and Afflatus Tenacity as Lily Equivalent versions of Medica 2 and Cure 3 respectively. These abilities would cost 2 Lilies, as opposed to the single Lily cost of Afflatus Solace/Rapture so as to not only prevent overshadowing those skills but to also grant WHM a much less punishing usage of the Lily system by speeding up the process in utilizing Afflatus Misery at a much lower DPS discrepancy than it currently is. Since the current reason that WHM lacks raid utility is because they offer the most damage out of healers, which might no longer be true with the introduction of SGE, WHM needs more damage to remain relevant in the end game scene. With these 2 new skills, the damage lost by utilizing Lily Skills is greatly diminished and WHM can get that extra damage it so desperately needs.
On the topic of the Lily System, I would also advocate for Afflatus Rapture to be moved to level 58 so as to both be closer to acquisition as Solace as well as make up for the missing skill gap that is currently there, with Afflatus Reminiscence and/or Tenacity taking up the current level slot of 76 so as to prevent that gap from occurring.
Now, on to a more controversial topic, Lilybell and the Thin Air nerf. Since we don't really know what end game for EW is going to look like, its hard to gauge just how useful Lilybell is going to be but at a cursory glance, the skill is.....lacking. While the max potency of the skill is extraordinarily high, the condition of activation is less than ideal; Coupling the heal to the WHM taking damage is bound to cause problems rather than resolve them. The best times to utilize such a skill is on multi-hit Raid damage attacks, such as J-waves in TEA, but there hasn't been many instances that would require such an ability and Cure 3 was our answer to those moments when they did pop up but with the nerf to Thin Air making Cure 3 spam much more costly to do, it feels like Lilybell is meant to make up for it but really doesn't because as an oGCD ability, it doesn't gain the benefits of skills that boost the healing potency of abilities, such as Temperance or PI. A single Cure 3 with PI can heal for almost as much as 2 tics of Lilybell, meaning that we'd still have to utilize our GCD to healing in order to make up for that lower healing value so it kind of defeats the purpose. To make it even worse is that any wasted stacks left on Lilybell upon finishing its duration only restore half the potency. This does NOT warrant a 3 minute CD as it currently stands nor does it make up for the nerf to Thin Air.
So, I would like to suggest that Lilybell be added to the Lily System as well at a cost of 3 Lilies, a reduced CD of 90 seconds so that its technically available more often than 3 minutes, that it restores MP for the WHM as a secondary Lucid Dreaming and that the Lilybell heals on a fixed interval similarly to a Regen, going off every few seconds instead of relying on the WHM to be hit to proc. Now, I know the unlikelihood of a WHM holding on to their Lilies in Ultimate or even Savage content to even warrant saving them for something as meh as Lilybell but hear me out. By turning Lilybell into a GCD ability via the Lily System, it will now benefit from more of WHM's toolkit, namely Temperance and PI, meaning that the heal can become even more potent than what is currently being offered. Not only that, but costing 3 Lilies means that Afflatus Misery becomes a DPS gain for WHM since Lilybell will be able to grant instant access to the skill on its own. Finally, by adding the secondary MP restore to it, WHM can remain a strong progression healer due to having another means of getting more MP from its toolkit.
I know these suggestions won't address all of WHM's pain points but I hope they at least get some more ideas and talks going in regards to the future of WHM. Please feel free to criticize as I am very interested in discussing alternative opinions on the matter.
WHM Revisions and Ideas
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10-21-2021, 05:10 PMSilver-StriderWHM Revisions and Ideas
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10-21-2021, 05:19 PMinhaledcornHonestly, I don't think that's totally necessary. I think if they just make Thin Air a skill that applies the Lily effect to any of WHM's healing skills, you get the same thing you want without increasing the button bloat. Basically, new Thin Air would be like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Additionally, I believe I've already discussed with you why Lilybell costing lilies is a bad idea. Since Lilybell is an oGCD, using it on cooldown will always be a dps gain for nourishing the Blood Lily. On top of that, making it cost three Lilies, as per your suggestion, means that every other Lily action is basically unviable.Quote:
Thin Air
Your next healing spell will cost 0 MP.
Additional Effect: When the spell is cast, nourishes the Blood Lily
Healing Gauge cost: 1 Lily
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10-21-2021, 06:45 PMSilver-StriderThere's 2 ways I'm reading your Thin Air suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
1) Thin Air now costs a lily to use. That would be a massive nerf to Thin Air cause then I would always have to hold on to a Lily on the off chance someone dies or I have to pay the full price for a rez.
or
2) I need a Lily to cast my next healing spell to nourish the Blood Lily and if I don't have 1, I'm out of luck towards making progress for Misery, and even if I do have a lily to burn, it wouldn't result in a DPS gain because I would still need to cast 2 other Lily skills as well as Misery vs the 4 Glare casts that Misery is competing with.
Neither option resolves the issue with the Lily system being a DPS loss for WHM and creates new problems instead.
Now, I do concede that Lilybell costing 3 lilies can potentially make the other Lily Abilities unviable, in which case, Lilybell's CD can be adjusted so that it isn't always available, giving the other Lily skills a time and place for usage; Hell, with how much I packed into Lilybell, it would actually warrant the 3 minute CD that its currently looking to be strapped with and I appreciate giving me that insight for it.
However, the primary reason I suggest putting it on both the Lily System and on the GCD is because it doesn't interact with WHM's toolkit in its current form. It doesn't gain benefits from Temperance or PI and unless Asylum is up with it, the 400 potency heal tics just aren't enough to justify a 3 minute CD. Not only that but it actively goes against normal healer protocol and encourages the WHM to take damage so that they can sit there and cast Glare more since the Lilybell will heal the party; IT'S THE LEYLINES OF WHM!!!! I can already see WHM's trying desperately to squeeze out the most damage possible while Lilybell is up, siting in an easily avoidable AoE just so that they can cast Glare and that is a problem. Lilybell in its current form is a TERRIBLE ability, from either a DPS perspective or a healer one. It needs to be changed and I'm entirely open to any and all suggestions to do so. -
10-22-2021, 02:25 AMHozomeen
I really think the current Lilybell version looks very strong, and am confused that you think it's lacking.
Even if only one of the stacks pops, that's 1200 AoE healing potency. Isn't that already extraordinarily powerful? On mechanics like J Waves or Terminal, Lilybell pretty much provides 5 uses of Indomitability. The issue I see is that damage and healing propagation could lead to the heal being triggered before everyone in the group has taken the damage that triggered the heal when it hit the WHM. But from the media tour footage it doesn't look like that will happen. -
10-22-2021, 02:57 AMSebazy
Lilybell's potential throughput is absolutely vast in the right situation. As you say, Timult style AoEs will be it's bread and butter.
It has two issues the way I see it though. The first is that it's dependant on the WHM taking damage to heal anything. Hello World style mechanics where damage is frequent but quite specific and potentially not on the healers will be a problem for it. It has the potential to end up being a 15 second Earthly Star that you can't pop early in the worst case.
Which leads me onto the second issue. Why is it a 3 minute CD given that weakness? Really it should be 2 minutes. Sure, against J Waves it's more powerful than Macrocosmos, but those tend to be once a fight style AoEs. For more typical AoE damage, Macrocosmos is just plain more flexible and on a significantly shorter cool down. -
10-22-2021, 04:55 AMSemirhage
That's a common bit of design weirdness with WHM's cooldowns. Ooooo, it's 20% more potent than X from another healer that's cool! Oh it has three times the cooldown. That's dumb, that means it's actually less impactful 90% of the time. Nevermind.
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10-22-2021, 05:24 AMAcece
Whm should be able to manually use Lilly bell, ast can pop microcosmos early idk why whm can't either. Also the CD should def be 2 min in line with microcosmos.
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10-22-2021, 06:02 AMNaoki34No, but, I don't know if you're aware that it's already done, Yoshi-P isn't going to consult you for WHM gameplay in Endwalker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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10-22-2021, 06:03 AMSilver-StriderI have 2 main issues with current Lilybell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hozomeen
My main issue with the skill is how it procs. It requires the WHM to take damage, meaning its only useful in unavoidable damage situations, in theory. If order for WHM to remain as a high damaging healer, it needs to be able to utilize its few oGCD abilities as effectively as possible in order to gain damage so that its raid contributions remain somewhat balanced out with the other healers. My worry with Lilybell is that, in order for WHMs to use it more than as a 15 second Horoscope, it will encourage WHMs to take avoidable damage so that they can focus on DPSing instead, hence why I called it WHM's Leylines. That's not a healthy direction to go with for this skill. If it was just an oGCD that I could trigger on the fly like Earthly Star, so that I don't have to take damage for it to work, then it would be less problematic.
Another issue I have with it is that, with the nerf to Thin Air, Cure 3 is now just too expensive to reliably spam in those situations that would warrant its usage. Thin Air with Cure 3+PI helped not only to alleviate WHM's long standing MP issues that its had since ARR but it also gave WHM the ability to power thru mechanics that required stick healing thresholds to be met to survive. The answer, it would seem, would be Lilybell since now we can just replace Cure 3 with Rapture/Medica 1+2 to make up the difference in potency that Cure 3+PI once had but Lilybell being a level 90 skill means we can't utilize in content that once was just a few Cure 3's away from completing, so J-waves in TEA just became a more daunting task for WHM to contend with than before. Not only that but, other than Rapture, Medica 1+2 have a longer cast time than Cure 3, meaning weaving in an Assize or Asylum will now cause us to clip more heavily into our GCD in order to utilize those tools, making it less effective overall.
Then there's the overhealing, the lack of synergy with other parts of WHM's toolkit and the lack of interaction with the lily system, which are all just personal nitpicks really but I still feel it's wasted potential for growth that I would like to rectify. Lilybell has potential, I see that much but not in its current state. -
10-22-2021, 08:22 AMinhaledcornThin Air has already been massively nerfed. The only thing this changes is that you can't use Thin Air on Glare, Holy, or, yes, Raise. The other healers have to eat the Raise cost. You just have to either deal with it, stop dps from being dumb, or leave them on the floor to think about what they did. You want Afflatus Medica II and Afflatus Cure III. This basically does the same thing without adding to the button bloat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
The problem right now with Misery is that it's not DPS neutral. This is easily fixed by making the potencies equal to 3 casts Glare/Glare III (when the trait is granted upgrading Glare to Glare III). This also leads to some interesting optimization since using Misery under buff windows essentially gets you two extra casts of Glare.
From what we know currently about Lilybell: 1) it's cooldown is absurdly long and 2) the WHM has no control over it. If it was 90s and the WHM could manually trigger the skill, Lilybell would be an extremely powerful and effective healing tool. Heck, I would even throw in a duration buff to 30s. Now, you have plenty of chances to plan out how it's used. WHM doesn't need this sort of thing on the GCD. What it needs is more oGCD healing options, especially since Assize isn't really used as a healing tool, and WHM now has more convenient weaving windows.
Speaking of Assize, Assize should be split into two buttons: Assize (for the heal) and Banish (with the damage and mp regen). This leaves Assize to be used as its intended purpose but still leaves WHM with a good damage ability with some MP regeneration to be used for damage windows. Honestly, I would give WHM Fluid Aura back with 2 charges on a 45s timer and just give it the damage aspect. No knockback or Bind. Again, more damage options on WHM since it's supposed to be the "my damage is my damage utility" healer like Sage. While, yes, this is increasing button bloat, something I criticized about adding new Afflatus skills, but healers want more damage options, and I think this fills that idea while still fitting within WHM's identity. -
10-22-2021, 11:16 AMSilver-StriderOk, I'm just going to chalk this up as a troll now.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
The only reason to bring a WHM currently in end game is for the safety net it provides in preventing wipes due to its ability to effortlessly cast rez without issue and now you're advocating that it loses even this. On top of this, you don't even know that Misery already does what your saying for it to do and is still a DPS loss because Misery is only equivalent to 3 Glare casts, despite needing a total of 4 GCDs to even cast. Finally, you chastise my suggestion of adding 2 Afflatus skills and yet suggest adding 2 more buttons yourself.
If this isn't a troll attempt then its just flat out terrible because it fixes nothing that is currently facing WHM. -
10-22-2021, 05:25 PMinhaledcornWhoa, just because you don't like the suggestions does not mean I am a troll. That is extremely disingenuous of you. I'm trying to engage in conversation with you, it is not fair for you to shut me down like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
WHM being the "prog healer" is something set by the community, not the developers. They likely disliked how WHM is being played by the community, especially since, after prog is done, people generally switch to AST. The change to Thin Air fundamentally changes how WHM is going to operate now, probably closer to how the developers want it to be played. On top of that, they likely disliked how WHM could Raise continuously when MP basically exists as a Raise gatekeep now, especially since the other healers had to eat the Raise MP penalty. This does overall hurt progression groups, but this does, hopefully, make WHM more attractive even speedruns.
Additionally, I've been reading the problems other WHMs have said about their kit, and I trust their word on it more than mine since my knowledge on WHM is more surface level than anything. From what I've heard from them WHM:
lack oGCD healing (since Assize isn't really being used for healing)
Misery isn't DPS neutral (even if my suggestion doesn't make it DPS neutral, just making it equal to 4 casts fixes that, too), and Lilies are generally being unused except during downtime.
lack of weave windows (which has been addressed)
lack of DPS options
WHM is going to change how it's played and used. My suggestions refocuses on WHM's very powerful GCD options while not making them bad to use, on top of giving more DPS and oGCD healing. I'm trying to focus WHM's playstyle identity as the "Black Mage of healers". While I did add buttons, which I admitted to in my initial post, by the way, it was only done in an attempt to address some of the problems that face WHM going into Endwalker. Your suggestions add to the button bloat without addressing anything else WHMs have been complaining about. -
10-23-2021, 12:38 AMSilver-StriderThe problem is that, with the nerf to Thin Air, there isn't a reason to bring a WHM in EW. AST will now have the superior MP management between the 2, even more so with the inclusion of Astrodyne, it already offers more rDPS than WHMs aDPS can match, it has oGCD heals that are available mostly on 40-45 second intervals meaning a health rotation of healing options are almost always available to it when need be, Neutral Sect grants it Shielding capabilities when needed and Macrocosmos is a DPS neutral GCD skill with a powerful heal comparable to Lilybell but is much more flexible.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
The lack of oGCD healing is a problem for WHM but its clear that SE wants WHM to remain a GCD focused job, hence why I suggest expanding on the Lily System, which would not only resolve the issue of Misery not being DPS Neutral but also addresses the issue of Lilies being unused. However, there's no way to resolve this issue without creating more Button Bloat, which you yourself also demonstrated. Since Misery requires 3 Lilies to be used to activate, adding in Reminiscence and Tenacity that utilize 2 Lilies will reduces the requirements to activate Misery, so that the current DPS loss of using Misery is much less severe to a point its practically non existent so utilizing Lilies over Glare is a non-issue. Not only that but because they're free, it helps alleviate some of the MP burden WHM has considering that Medica 2 and Cure 3 are the most MP heavy skills in their toolkit.
A lack of DPS options is something all healers are facing really and I do lightly touch up on this by asking for an AoE DoT to be returned. It wouldn't solve the issue but its something at least.
I'm fine with changing WHM but EW hasn't done that other than nerfing it to be inferior AST. -
10-23-2021, 09:34 AMinhaledcornAST is going to be in a terrible place come EW because the DPS it can add is horribly inconsistent. Astrodyne needing three different seals, and AST losing a lot of the ways it can guarantee those three seals will mean Astrodyne is something it can't rely on for damage. On top of that, Lord is also a part of its damage it can't guarantee. Lightspeed is basically going to be used exclusively with Astrodyne instead of high movement phases like it can use it currently, so it can't get fast raises. AST's mp economy was also nerfed as Draw only gains 500 mp now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Thin Air, as it will exist going into EW, will basically be constantly held at 1 charge to be used basically on Glare and maybe 1 Raise in prog and Medica II in farm. This doesn't expand WHM's gameplay in any way, and your suggestions keep trying to pigeonhole it into this "prog healer" mentality. That, by design, keeps it from being competitive with AST, so your desire for a competitively viable WHM goes against your very design philosophy. -
10-23-2021, 12:46 PMSilver-StriderThe MP nerf on Draw is negated by Astrodyne restoring MP. You need 3 seals to activate Astrodyne but the MP restore remains whether you have 1 seal or 3 different seals, meaning that AST's MP economy remains more or less the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
Lord/Lady of Crowns are DPS Neutral, depending on the situation. Lord refunds the damage you lose healing while Lady heals while you do damage. If in a pure DPS race where no healing is required, then getting Lord is a DPS gain but that's really it in that regard. The only real RNG involved with AST is getting 3 seals in order to get the full benefits from Astrodyne. You are also forgetting that Macrocosmos will be a DPS neutral heal tool for AST since its both an attack and a heal spell so that they don't lose any damage with using it, whereas the WHM has to choose to attack or heal with their GCDs.
As for my suggestions that you say don't expand on WHM's gameplay, I'm curious if you understand my suggestions or their intentions. Let me explain how exactly my suggestions help.
Currently, Afflatus Misery is a DPS loss for WHM to use.
Afflatus Solace/Rapture are GCD heals that, upon using 3 Lilies will activate the GCD skill Afflatus Misery. Let's look at what that means.
Rapture/Solace > Rapture/Solace > Rapture/Solace > Misery
Total Potency: 900 DPS.
Compare this to Glare in the same time frame.
Glare > Glare > Glare > Glare
Total Potency: 1200 potency. (1240 potency in EW with Glare 3)
Now, my suggestion is to have Afflatus Reminiscence and Tenacity cost 2 Lilies, so that the build up to use Misery is reduced by 1 GCD, meaning there's only 3 Glares in comparison to 4.
Rapture/Solace > Reminiscence/Tenacity > Misery
Total Potency: 900
Glare > Glare > Glare
Total Potency: 900 (930 in EW)
The DPS discrepancy is virtually non-existent with a mere 30 potency to show for it but I also want to put Lilybell on the Lily System at 3 Lilies to cast, so.....
Lilybell > Misery
Total Potency: 900
Glare > Glare
Total Potecy: 600 (620 in EW)
That's a DPS gain of 280-300 potency.
The MP saved from using Reminiscence/Tenacity over Medica 2/Cure 3 is merely a byproduct of them being included into the Lily system and not the sole reason for their inclusion. It has nothing to do with the "Prog Healer" mentality and everything to do with giving WHM more damage and sustain to keep it a strong option in Endgame. The rest of my suggestions were merely QoL improvements to WHM so that the toolkit is more complete at an earlier stage of gameplay to address how awful WHM is before getting its complete toolkit, which is no different to the QoL changes that BLMs are getting to smooth out their leveling process.
The only issue I haven't addressed is the lack of oGCD healing tools for WHM to weave in and there really isn't a way to do that without even more button bloat. I suppose you could add a small heal to Divine Benison and Aqua Veil but than that's pretty much just a carbon copy of AST's Celestial Intersection and Exaltation and it's only 2 skills that we'll be weaving in already so it doesn't really solve that issue much either.