Meoni asked Yoshida about the flashiness of Sage and the short talk time about Scholar and wondering if Yoshida had anything planned for Scholar to make Scholar players not feel left out.
Yoshida basically apologized for that saying it was his fault... more in the video. There was quite a bit of back and forth with the interpreter.
https://youtu.be/86QBb22z86c?t=334
Meoni Interview with Yoshida- Sage vs. Scholar
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10-13-2021, 10:38 PMReiryuuMeoni Interview with Yoshida- Sage vs. Scholar
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10-14-2021, 04:09 AMSpiralMask
I do hope they at least got the catalyze/galvanize order swapped so that you can deploy a shield that actually exists, since between galvanize being "on top" and the forced delay between applying a shield and being able to successfully deploy it, it tends to get hammered into nothing.
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10-14-2021, 05:00 AMrewdThere is no delay anymore. You can shield and deploy right away now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiralMask
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10-14-2021, 05:40 AMSpiralMasknow THATs interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
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10-14-2021, 05:44 AMRecon1o6
anyone else notice how he didn't actually answer the question
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10-14-2021, 05:45 AMEaMett
So nothing new since "there wasn't much the players weren't satisfied with [regarding scholar]".
I don't get it, should we get upset at whoever the community manager is? What gives? -
10-14-2021, 05:51 AMEloah
Honestly, meme'd skill aside, it would of been nice if they at least addressed the issues with the 60, 70, and 80 skills, specifically Dissipation. Also, why a movement speed boost and not an skill/spell speed boost?
Additionally, it looks like SCH and SGE will be inversions of one another. SCH shields by default and needs another skill to produce a pure heal (Emergency Tactics). Whereas, SGE has pure heals by default and uses another skill to produce a shield (Eukrasia). But, shouldn't ET be adjusted to be more in line with Eukrasia; a shorter CD and given at a lower level. Also SCH is still the only healer without an AoE heal below level 20. -
10-14-2021, 05:52 AMRecon1o6
I mean scholars are only really complaining about
All their dots being stripped
All their debuffs being stripped
Most of their utility stripped
Missing selene
Unresponsive fairy
ghosting fairy
poor fairy embrace ai and lack of manual embrace
Being locked out of their kit on dissipation
Being locked out of their kit when seraph is using the fae tether
Bane and shadowflare missing
Energy drain constantly getting taken away
Energy drain constantly being nerfed
Potencies being nerfed with no thought given to content where those potencies are important (ie ucob and uwu)
silly animations like art of war
lack of damage causing mobs to take forever to kill
terrible levelling kit
and more but i have barely touched sch so i can't really comment further. -
10-14-2021, 05:55 AMEloahCurious how this is possible? It's still two buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
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10-14-2021, 06:26 AMPaulHYeah i am confused Adlo and then Deployment tactics - well Recitation, Adlo and then DT for guaranteed crit unless I am doing something wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
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10-14-2021, 06:37 AMrewdhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1jAnDzo6Fc&t=340sQuote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
They even showcased it in the job action trailer where the SCH uses DT right after Adlo. -
10-14-2021, 06:42 AMEaMettThe shield is already there, hard to tell which gets spread. Though I'm wondering if they did swap catalyze and galvanize in the hit order. From that video... Hard to tell, everything hits like wet noodles.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
Honestly doubt they made any changes to server ticks so I would be surprised if this deployment change is really different. With that said, new short dps cast time means you can always deploy on the next gcd. -
10-14-2021, 06:42 AMBrandedbladeAccording to the reddit video on healers they seemed to have noticed that Adloquium applies it's shield near the end of the cast as opposed to the end of the animation. Which indirectly means the shield is applied faster. From what footage i've seen of deployment it did activate nearly instantly. Even if that wasn't the case, the fact that you have weave space again means you only loose the dps of the one gcd cast of casting the shield, so dps wise it's the same cost as a Succor to do an Adlo-deploy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
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10-14-2021, 06:52 AMrewdI don't understand what you are implying with "the shield is already there"?Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
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10-14-2021, 07:18 AMAnotherPersonLook at 6:55 to 7:10 on that Deployment tactics and Adloquium. Adloquium gets deployed, before the cast finishes - the shield component goes off. Then Deployment tactics can immediately spread the shield. This is a very good change for Deployment tactics and Adloquium.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
SCH definitely seems to have a lot of clunkyness removed, though it's unsure still how much that has changed. We'll have to play SCH on Endwalker to find out exactly how responsive the fairy is currently and if there will be any issues with ghosting and such. All things considered, SCH will definitely adhere to the medic tactician role with the direction in which the skills are upgrading. -
10-14-2021, 07:27 AMRyuDragnierFrom a video, it was mentioned that Seraph still has ghosting, and we still have the Dissipation/Fey Union/Seraph being in constant conflict with each other. It was also mentioned that the fairy was very responsive on ability uses, with them able to weave her abilities between Broil IV casts. Though it's unsure how well it'll do when it's not on a closed testing server.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
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10-14-2021, 08:00 AMCalystoJust pointing out some hypothetical things ; because some of the skills are direct parallels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
In case gcd heals/barriers are needed (if that even happens) they seems in favor of SGE.
-Barriers get get the same potency (Aoe has a different formula but it 320)
-SGE get ogcd+instant cast instead of 2s cast
-If you really need the gcd aoe heal(let's say for a full hp doom), 300 spamable potency instead of 200
-zoe+pepsi seems better than recitation+emergency and still can crit.
Also, haima seems like SGE parallel to excog ; but better ?
-I'm not sure if the same hit can consume more that one stack
-50 less total potency, reccource free, longer recast but
-You got an aoe version :
-I guess that would be the parrallel to consolation (less potency but pure shield)
I may be biased ; but I can't find much comparing them that (on the paper) doen't give SGE at least way more flexibility than SCH. -
10-14-2021, 08:08 AMReiryuuMr. Happy mentioned in his SCH overview, he didn't really feel the fairy was any more responsive, but he took that to mean it was because he was remotely connected to the server rather than being there in person so latency may/apparently does have something to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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10-14-2021, 08:26 AMzcrash970Eh...yoshi-p actually does that a lotQuote:
Originally Posted by Recon1o6
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10-14-2021, 08:39 AMEloahThat's basically it, SGE appears to have a bit more flexibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calysto
I'm not saying SCH is bad, and I'm not one of those SCH players that cry for the return of a million DoTs. But it would of been nice if some of the skill clunkiness was addressed; especially now that we have another Barrier healer to bounce off of.
Dissipation has been an issue since it's inception. It's going on 3 expansions without a significant change.
SCH's only AoE heal prior to Succor is Whispering Dawn at level 20. And while that's not bad per se, the other healers get a spammable AoE at 10. At least move WD to level 15, so SCHs have it in all dungeons.
With how SGE operates with Eukrasia, it would make more sense to move Emergency Tactics to a lower level, like maybe 40; and reduce the CD to maybe 5 seconds.
SCH also needs more DPS options, not in the form of DoTs, but comparable big skills like the other healers have. Energy Drain and Ruin II are just so lackluster. All the other healers have big skills/spells that deal AoE damage with fall-off, can't SCH get something like that.
And this new capstone skill is another in a long list of disappointments. Why movement speed, why not attack speed, like the former Fey Wind, or an AoE Esuna like the old Fey Caress. Almost anything would be better than just movement speed, it doesn't even make sense on SCH, unless they are trying to go for a military march or something.
I'm trying to just get all of this negativity out of my system before the launch. -
10-14-2021, 09:10 AMAnotherPersonNope, haima is a stacking shield mechanic which refreshes the shield only when the current shield breaks. It's used for weakening multiple successive hits /autos, not for tankbusters (unless said tankbuster hits multiple times in one instant). If the tankbuster is coming and you throw a haima on the tank at low hp, the tank's most likely goanna die before the rest of the stacks get consumed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calysto
Sage's parallel to Excog is their 10% mitigation upfront 600 potency heal. - Same cooldown, just different usage. -
10-14-2021, 09:30 AMSebazy
The key point here is going to be how Sage's inflated self potency stacks up vs how powerful Chain is.
I can see a lot of healers having to prog as SCH if Savage lands with some stern DPS checks. I'd be inclined to guess that this is the reason that SCH got what appears to be a bit of a raw deal when taken in isolation. -
10-14-2021, 09:39 AMrewdAre Sage's potencies inflated, though? SGE has no oGCD damage spells, so its GCDs kinda have to be more powerful, otherwise it wouldn't be able to compete with Assize, Energy Drain, Star and Lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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10-14-2021, 10:04 AMSebazy
My thinking is that being able to dump it’s Phlegma charges with raid buffs will add up pretty nicely. Take Chain out of the mix and I can’t see SCH being remotely close. Chain is pretty tasty though and I can’t see groups being too keen to give it up.
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10-14-2021, 11:03 AMEaMettThanks! I was looking at that first application which was weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
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10-14-2021, 11:06 AMrewd- They addressed some of the clunkiness of the job, though. We can deploy without giving the game buffer time to apply shields; we can toggle Fey Union on and off without DPS loss; pet scaling seems to have been drastically reduced; pet seems to be more responsive, but we will probably have to try this ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
- SCH not having an AoE makes sense. You already barely need AoE anyway at that level, but SCH has the fairy, whose Embrace works like an AoE heal in a light party. AST and WHM needs an AoE skill because they don't have a pet. You could make an argument for SGE having Kardia and Prognosis, but this makes sense too. In order to mimic Embrace, you need to DPS and to costantly reapply Kardia. We know SE's stance on healing, so they are never putting so much responsibility on someone, especially at low levels when someone might be new to healing and feel overwhelmed.
- SCH got movement speed because it's useful and also fits job identity (it's fun to imagine SCH as a general telling troops to move). It's not haste because it interferes with other job's rotation; it's not AoE Esuna because it would be extremely underwhelming as a level 90 skill and too situational (and it would be OP in TEA, so AoE Esuna is 100% never coming back in any shape and form). Movement speed also makes sense with the damage reduction buff. -
10-14-2021, 11:09 AMEaMettCan't really count on potencies being final but I think it's stupid strong in the media tour iteration. I think it was something like SCH > AST has 10-15% more DPS than SCH > WHM has 10-15% more dps than AST > Sage is somewhere here, above WHM. I'll double-check the potencies again (since I'm basing this off of the leaks). That's without raid buffs of course, so AST should line up with WHM in the end. But I have a hard time seeing chain making that much up though. Again potencies aren't final so it might be a futile exercise to compare them like this, but I believe that this is part of the reason why Sebazy said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
We also need to account for mobility and stuff. SCH is looking a little more on the static end. At least in an optimized setting where you would want to avoid ruin II at all costs. (though I will admit to not diving into number crunching since the embargo lifted) -
10-14-2021, 11:43 AMDrekorThere was a video... forget who but basically galvanize goes up immediately when the server resolves your cast rather than waiting for the client side to resolve it. So similar to how you can slide cast with like 0.2-0.3s left on your cast bar you'll literally see galvanize come up before you even finish casting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
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10-14-2021, 12:02 PMNobleWinterPreviously the lag in application for Galvanize meant you could spam the Aldoquium and not lose the original shields potency if a tank was taking heavy dungeon mob damage. I wonder how this instant application will change how we approach single target healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drekor
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10-14-2021, 01:27 PMGeminaI certainly appreciate that he voiced his awareness of how it made us feel, and took full accountability. It took him a bit to actually get to the question. The impression I got from his answer sounded like this in my head, "Competitive with Sage? If anything we had to design Sage to be able to compete with SCH."Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiryuu
When looking at things from this perspective, it's easy to see that SCH is spoken for. It has multiple expansions under its belt, while SGE is fresh out of the academy. The real question is in huge contrast to Meoni's. "Despite its flashy appeal, can Sage even hope to compete with SCH?"
I guess I can understand if this is where Yoshi is coming from. When you think about it, the issues SCH has prevents it from being just this God of a healer. They're like Anima, and still crazy strong despite the binding chains. While it's cool to think about SCH that way, I don't think it's a valid reason to not acknowledge the issues SCH has. I don't want to feel like I'm 'bound by chains', and that is indeed how the job feels right now. -
10-14-2021, 05:21 PMEloahI wasn't really referring to animation and response time clunkiness, as that we'd have to wait and see for ourselves. I was referring to the skill clunkiness, and how basically a good portion of out capstone skills fight each other for dominance. SCH's skills need a bit more synergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
Also I'm aware that the lack of an AoE pre-20 isn't that big of a deal, and it really only affects one dungeon. But my point was more about the logistics behind it. This isn't only a SCH exclusive issue, but there are a few jobs where skill acquisition makes no sense. Either you get it too soon, too late, or it becomes outdated/unusable in some way. AST's Diurnal Sect makes no sense now since you can't use it until level 34. DRK Syphon Strike restores MP from the start, but MP isn't used until level 30. MCH's battery gauge unlocks at level 40 but Hot Shot is level 4. Ninja's Hide/Trick Attack, and I'm sure there are others.
These issue aren't major, just odd, and at endgame mean nothing. But, when people get synced down they get thrown in your face again. Truthfully, they are more nitpicky than anything, but I have heard people talk about them, but usually only about the ones on the jobs they main, because it's so glaring to them. Hence my bringing up the lack of AoE.
As for the movement speed, it's being meme'd because its gonna become troll-y. I'm sure someone is going to use it during a forced March mechanic and kill everyone. Speed can be useful, yes, but if you aren't in control, it's not as good as it sounds. That's why I made those suggestions, at least they would provide the old utility, and not be a hindrance in any way. But if those are no good, maybe give just the SCH a buff to cast times or attack power. Almost anything would be better than movement speed.