Thancred's Handicap Solution

Ceruleum powered cartridges instead of aether charged ones. Never understood why this problem was never thought up and fixed for him on the Source after Shadowbringers. Thoughts?

Probably gameplay reasons primarily, I can't imagine they want to have two versions of a character, and yes G'raha exists he's more of a visual difference not AI.
EW might do something about it.

Because from what I understand, ceruleum and earth-aspected aether are the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because from what I understand, ceruleum and earth-aspected aether are the same thing.

---

So? it's ammo. If garlicans can use it so can Thancred.

There isn't a lot of point bothering with ceruleum if a friend can just make some ammo.

Most ceruleum processing facilities are currently under the control of

the Telophoroi

and whatever comes out of the processing plant in Northern Thanalan is probably already allocated and unavailable for Scion use, and as Jeeqbit said, why bother when you have a magic buddy who can charge some cartridges for you so you don't have to engage in commerce for something that is incredibly limited in supply.

Someone probably asked Tataru to requisition some, to which she promptly replied, "Ceruleum gunblade cartridges, Thancred, in this economy??!"

Cereleum is basically aether-enriched petroleum which hrothgarian gunblades as used by GNB and Thancred are not designed to use as their propellant.

Garlean gunblades don't even use cereleum anyway, as they are basically just guns with a greatly elongated bayonet built into the barrel, that use gunpowder or a similar explosive to fire a solid charge or bullet out the barrel (cereleum instead is used in vehicles and machines like airships and juggernauts for fuel).

Hrothgar gunblades however use cartridges of aether to instead trigger a blast of aetheric energy along the blade and don't actually fire anything solid, hence are more like swords with an aether-powered rumble pack attached, so using cereleum in them would be a very bad idea - it would blow the gunblade to pieces if you tried to do so. Not surprisingly the hrothgar regarded Garlean gunblades as a cheap knockoff to the real thing.

Also, as Rongway said above, Thancred is already getting Urianger to create his cartridges for him so there is no point to even try to use cereleum-derived cartridges in his gunblade as an alternative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Garlean gunblades don't even use cereleum anyway, as they are basically just guns with a greatly elongated bayonet built into the barrel, that use gunpowder or a similar explosive to fire a solid charge or bullet out the barrel (cereleum instead is used in vehicles and machines like airships and juggernauts for fuel).

Hrothgar gunblades however use cartridges of aether to instead trigger a blast of aetheric energy along the blade and don't actually fire anything solid, hence are more like swords with an aether-powered rumble pack attached, so using cereleum in them would be a very bad idea - it would blow the gunblade to pieces if you tried to do so. Not surprisingly the hrothgar regarded Garlean gunblades as a cheap knockoff to the real thing.

---

I feel the Hrothgar may be more than a little biased in their assessment. The Garlean gunblade is more range focused than the Hrothgar original, but we've seen it in action enough to see it's clearly got a bit more going on than just being a gun with an elongated bayonet attached. You can't carve big magical X shaped projectiles into the air with a gun.

That said though, I also don't really a point in using ceruleum in our gunblades, we can already create all the ammo we need using either our own or a friends ability to enchant the cartridges.

As far as I can tell, Ceruleum is basically just oil. There's very little special magical properties to it. It wouldn't really do anything in a cartridge for the gunblades used by the GNB class, except maybe explode inside the thing...

The short and simplified explanation of how the Gunblades work is that you load up the cartridges with Aether, you put them in the gun and when you pull the trigger it lets out Aether that you then use to do some quick magics in the middle of the fight, in most cases to just hit harder...

The real question is why did Thancred take up GNB in the first place when it used a weapon he was incapable of maintaining by himself?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The real question is why did Thancred take up GNB in the first place when it used a weapon he was incapable of maintaining by himself?

---

I actually used to wonder that myself, but if you think about it it actually makes sense. Just because he needs someone to imbue his ammunition for him now and again does not negate the obvious benefit of being able to use aether again in any capacity, so if anything I'd say it's a good fit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The real question is why did Thancred take up GNB in the first place when it used a weapon he was incapable of maintaining by himself?

---

He can no longer manipulate aether himself, Gunbreaker is probably the only job where someone else can do the manipulating of aether ahead of time for you and the end user just has to remember which cartridges are which and trigger the effects when needed.

-----

Gunbreaker is sort of like a DnD Wizard if you think about it, just with a gunblade and cartridges instead of a spellbook and spells. It's the same preparing abilities ahead of time and triggering them when needed sort of magic though.

Also when you get right down to it a hrothgarian gunblade is just a very weird sword, which could still be used effectively in the most ancient and basic way possible if all else failed, as a cutting/stabbing weapon at close range, all the cartridges do is increase the damage the blow does significantly. And Thancred is well trained in close quarters fighting with edged weaponry due to his experience in GLA and ROG.

Really though, it's a meta thing, SE needed at least one of the Archons to be a tank for Trust purposes, and Thancred's 'hero' ideals fit well with GNB, especially his feelings of regret and guilt over what happened to both Minfilia and her father, and his determination that won't happen again with a certain girl in the First, so taking up the gunblade as her bodyguard and protector made perfect sense, even despite his aetheric handicap.

I would say it's more for meta reasons (tank trust that use one of the playable job). Realistically, someone as professional as him would use garlean gunblade since it is intended for non-magic user. True he can have the other to imbue his cartridges, but what happen if he was alone or separated from the group?

From an old thread I made asking about how magitek functions, I learned that Garlean gunblades are powered by ceruleum, so I thought "what if Thancred's gunblade could be modified to use ceruleum as a power source through cartridges instead of needing a friend to charge his aether ones".

Though I didn't know that ceruleum is such a rare and expensive thing to get in Eoreza. Now I wanna see Tataru actually make a funny comment about it in game. xD

But yeah, I just find it weird for a character like Thancred that specializes in sneaking around now always needing someone nearby to charge his GNB cartridges. It feels too much of a handicap for him, especially if he gets stuck in situations where he gets separated from an ally that can charge his cartridges and he's used up all the ones he has on him. Yeah, sure. He can just use the gunblade like a regular sword if something like that were to happen, but how long will that benefit him until he runs into something he can't just cut with a regular sword? I don't know, it's a situation like that that got me thinking about what can help get rid of Thancred's handicap in the first place so he can do things by himself without a "cartridge charge buddy" always needing to be with him at all times.

I hope Thancred incorporates Garlean tech into GNB job during or after Endwalker so be at least has some way to not get backed into a corner without ammo to use for his gunblade.

That, or maybe his cartridges could be put in a special container that gathers aether from his surrounding, them as he moves about?

Problem is that garlean gunblades are considered a cheap copy. Their advantage lies on being easy to mass make.

Its similar to the lasguns of the imperial guard in 40k: Might not the best weapons but they are reliable enough and cheap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

I feel the Hrothgar may be more than a little biased in their assessment. The Garlean gunblade is more range focused than the Hrothgar original, but we've seen it in action enough to see it's clearly got a bit more going on than just being a gun with an elongated bayonet attached. You can't carve big magical X shaped projectiles into the air with a gun.

That said though, I also don't really a point in using ceruleum in our gunblades, we can already create all the ammo we need using either our own or a friends ability to enchant the cartridges.

---

Let's also add Garlean doesn't just stop with gunswords. They already have used from the higher figures gunhalberd, gunwrist, gunhammer so generally speaking anything that you can attach some manner of ranged firearm in something works although the less trained and suitable soldiers won't be good at wielding them

And here i always thought at the first sign of weakness we should put them down like we do with horses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jettinson

Let's also add Garlean doesn't just stop with gunswords. They already have used from the higher figures gunhalberd, gunwrist, gunhammer so generally speaking anything that you can attach some manner of ranged firearm in something works although the less trained and suitable soldiers won't be good at wielding them

---

Garleans basically added an atachment to melee weapons that allows ranged combat. It kinda follows Oda Nobunaga's idea that troops with guns can prevail against any other ranged unit and require less effort and cost to train them, and the next evolution would be "make those ranged units to not be as weak in melee" and you have a versatile force that can hold their own, be ranged or close combat,even if they are not as good as an specialist unit, while eorzean troops have far more rigid roles (either you are ranged or close combat unit, not both) and lack flexibility. You need years of training with the bow or magic to be of an use on the battlefield, meanwhile the garleans can just can give their troops guns and just tell them to point towards the enemy, because gun tech in Eorzea is centuries behind

Garlean empire behaves similarly to the roman empire and look how many evolutions the gladius had adapting it so it suited better to the different foes and battlefields. They just saw the gunblades and they adapted the versatily it gave by being able to cover several situations with the same weapon.

Don't worry about it.
If they want Thancred to do fine with his Gunbreaking abilities they will surely come up with a solution that is explained in a single line of dialogue.
ShB showed us they have no qualms about coming up with any excuse to fix things for coolness or fanservice sake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

He can no longer manipulate aether himself, Gunbreaker is probably the only job where someone else can do the manipulating of aether ahead of time for you and the end user just has to remember which cartridges are which and trigger the effects when needed.

-----

Gunbreaker is sort of like a DnD Wizard if you think about it, just with a gunblade and cartridges instead of a spellbook and spells. It's the same preparing abilities ahead of time and triggering them when needed sort of magic though.

---

Been a bit but I'm pretty sure WAR doesnt use aether?

It isn't a poetic body guard job he could take up before taking charge of Ryne. Nor a job that would allow for their symbiotic relationship.
But... lore wise it seems like it would have been the better choice, though the less totally appropriate one.



(If only he'd met a mentor from the east that could teach him how to go from rogue to Ninja he wouldn't have needed to change. After all, the Nin storyline establishes they don't use aether.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bhearil

Problem is that garlean gunblades are considered a cheap copy. Their advantage lies on being easy to mass make.

Its similar to the lasguns of the imperial guard in 40k: Might not the best weapons but they are reliable enough and cheap

---

Can be prevented by making a custom garlean gunblade. And speaking of ceruleum, I don't think a gunblade use that much. If he asked, I'm pretty sure the city state leaders will supply him with a lifetime of ceruleum for his gunblade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

Don't worry about it.
If they want Thancred to do fine with his Gunbreaking abilities they will surely come up with a solution that is explained in a single line of dialogue.
ShB showed us they have no qualms about coming up with any excuse to fix things for coolness or fanservice sake.

---

Now I'm curious, do you mind giving us examples? Admittedly, I may have forgotten a lot of things in ShB :/

I'd assumed most if not all the Jobs we can play as involved using Aether. Certainly got brought up a lot whenever people asked for playable Garleans lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Been a bit but I'm pretty sure WAR doesnt use aether?

It isn't a poetic body guard job he could take up before taking charge of Ryne. Nor a job that would allow for their symbiotic relationship.
But... lore wise it seems like it would have been the better choice, though the less totally appropriate one.



(If only he'd met a mentor from the east that could teach him how to go from rogue to Ninja he wouldn't have needed to change. After all, the Nin storyline establishes they don't use aether.)

---

Warrior's Inner Beast is probably aether, considering the warrior armor is specifically magicked to make it both call forth and control the Inner Beast.

Where does the NIN storyline say they don't use aether? The lore book specifically calls ninjas out for using aether.

Quote:

---

"By manipulating the aether present in heaven (ten), earth (chi), and man (jin), and further combining their effects in predetermined sequences, the shinobi is capable of manifesting an impressive array of arcane phenomena."

---

The solution would be for them to call a friend from Baldesion to bring a Re-Aetherification Plot Device to restore Thancred's aether. Or mention the problem to G'raha Tia for him to invent a solution an Allagan solution. It would be consistent with the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Warrior's Inner Beast is probably aether, considering the warrior armor is specifically magicked to make it both call forth and control the Inner Beast.

Where does the NIN storyline say they don't use aether? The lore book specifically calls ninjas out for using aether.

---

[double checks Nin questline]
Oh hey, you're right.
Sorry, I was mistaken.

I misrembered this line to say that the energies Ninjas use is similar to aether, and not that we both have 2 different understandings of the same everpresent magical energy.
Err... that he was saying we had similar energies and not that we had similar understanding of the same one.
(If that makes sense)

https://i.postimg.cc/SskChXhp/similar.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jettinson

Let's also add Garlean doesn't just stop with gunswords. They already have used from the higher figures gunhalberd, gunwrist, gunhammer so generally speaking anything that you can attach some manner of ranged firearm in something works although the less trained and suitable soldiers won't be good at wielding them

---

*cough*gunscythe*cough*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

*cough*gunscythe*cough*

---

YOOOOOOO!!
That idea is jrpg as hell in all the best ways~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The real question is why did Thancred take up GNB in the first place when it used a weapon he was incapable of maintaining by himself?

---

Good question but I think it's implied the other hrothgar dude trained him during SB?

Correct, the Hrothgar Thancred trained under is introduced in the level 80 GNB quest. Later shows up in Bozja, too.

He explains he took up the gunblade in ShB for its defensive capabilities (to keep Ryne safe) and, GNB being the "lightest" Tank, it's not too outlandish a transition imo

If you're concerned about Thancred running out of ammo when he is off doing his sneaky thing, I imagine he just gets his daggers out at that point. Sneaking about is much more rogue-friendly, and there's no reason at all why he can't switch jobs and use his rogue skills in those situations. He just tanks when he's needed as a tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

If you're concerned about Thancred running out of ammo when he is off doing his sneaky thing, I imagine he just gets his daggers out at that point. Sneaking about is much more rogue-friendly, and there's no reason at all why he can't switch jobs and use his rogue skills in those situations. He just tanks when he's needed as a tank.

---

He keeps shukuchi or something similar as a GNB (uses it on the Frog boss illussion to bypass it), so its obvious he can still use his repertoire of skills as long as they dont require personal aether to perform.

Why use ammo that could potentially destroy your weapon when you’ve magical friends to keep the ammo coming. I mean we could even do it for him if he needed us to.

I would imagine the scions would band together, to imbue enough cartridges to keep Thancred supplied for a good long time, lets also not forget Thancred always keeps a few tricks up his sleeve.

Don't machinists use an aetherometer to gather aether for their magic bullets?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pells

Don't machinists use an aetherometer to gather aether for their magic bullets?

---

Their aetheroconverter converts machinists' own aether into bullets, rather than gathering ambient aether. Gunbreakers don't use bullets for their gunblades anyhow, just cartridges.

It seems like gunbreakers just fill cartridges full of aether over time which they then "fire" to make their sword do an effect instead of shoot a bullet. And I don't think GNB players would want to give SE an excuse to give them an ugly lunchbox anyway.