Tanking and Small Pulls

What is the consensus when a tank does small pulls?

Picture it. Everyone loads in and say their preferred greetings. The tank runs out of the gate and pulls 2 tadpoles.

How do you react?

Annoyance IRL, but then I'll just ask the tank if he can do bigger pulls. NDB, it'll just be a bore otherwise.

As a healer; don't really care TBH.

I'm long past the old days (in that other game) when content was so boring that I just wanted it over with ASAP.

These days; if I don't feel like spending 10-25 mins in a dungeon, I simply do not queue for one that day.

I adhere to the speed of the tank. If they don't want to Wall-To-Wall, that is really not something I have an issue with.

When I'm a bit tired after work, slow pulling is actually pretty nice, sometimes.

It is up to the tank ability to pull small or big. It could be the tank is new to the game/new to the dungeon, or just reach the il required, god know
could simply ask the tank/healer for bigger or smaller
So, personally don’t mind as long as we clear it.

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Originally Posted by Eldtagg

I'm long past the old days (in that other game) when content was so boring that I just wanted it over with ASAP.

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Honestly, the content is super fun most of the time. I just like being able to use my skills, think on my feet, and have activity other than pressing maybe 2 or 3 skills because there's no need for the other ones. Wall-to-walls are exciting and allow me to utilize more of my toolbelt than single-pack pulls.

I'm also ADHD so there's that.

I usually try and encourage bigger pulls by being very nice and charming! Tanks shouldn't be scared, ever! ^^

Sometimes it actually works! Other times... I'll have to help out a little with the pulling!

Healers privilege? :D

Personally, I enjoy the occasional wipe. Those have been getting increasingly rare tho.

Or maybe am just not playing enough anymore :P

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

Honestly, the content is super fun most of the time. I just like being able to use my skills, think on my feet, and have activity other than pressing maybe 2 or 3 skills because there's no need for the other ones. Wall-to-walls are exciting and allow me to utilize more of my toolbelt than single-pack pulls.

I'm also ADHD so there's that.

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Absolutely!

I was talking about that other game (WoW) where dungeon-levelling was so boring (but efficient) that you just wanted to get to max level and be done with it ASAP.

Sorry if I wrote my post badly.

In that other game a should have been 10 min dungeon run turning into a 30 min run because of inexperienced players could easily tilt you into a rage monster.

In FFXIV I can spam the same dungeon over and over for glam without ever getting bored of it.

I also enjoy wall-to-wall tanks but I have no issue with players taking it slow in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Eldtagg

These days; if I don't feel like spending 10-25 mins in a dungeon, I simply do not queue for one that day.

I adhere to the speed of the tank. If they don't want to Wall-To-Wall, that is really not something I have an issue with.

When I'm a bit tired after work, slow pulling is actually pretty nice, sometimes.

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Love your attitude, man. :D

[Faith in humanity +1]

No rush for me.

I haven't really come across a truly slow tank very often. Some wall pull, some go pack by pack, but as long as the dps is semi-decent and the tank isn't afk'ing after each pull, you'll mow through fast enough.

It's only a problem for me if the tank is rude when the healer says they'd be happy to take more, or is stalling a lot.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

What is the consensus when a tank does small pulls?

Picture it. Everyone loads in and say their preferred greetings. The tank runs out of the gate and pulls 2 tadpoles.

How do you react?

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I quit, blacklisted him (to send him to learn how to play, I'll see him again in 200 blacklists) and restarted after a manga moment. It's not much, 30 minutes of waiting compared to the boredom it represents.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

I quit, blacklisted him (to send him to learn how to play, I'll see him again in 200 blacklists) and restarted after a manga moment. It's not much, 30 minutes of waiting compared to the boredom it represents.

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I'm not sure if you're serious, but thank you for the laugh either way.
When it's getting late and I'm not feeling it, leaving is definitely an option.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

How do you react?

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If I think their gear / skills seem up to it, I'll encourage them to try for a little more.
Otherwise it's whatever man. Sometimes you get a fast run and sometimes you don't. That's part of it being a roulette lol.

1) i'll let the tank do their job in manner that is agreeable to them
2) join in reporting anyone who is ass to the tank, they're ruining my stinking experience too with their running/recuing ahead and shittalking
3) if dungeons ends up taking 80min... reconsider if i wanna use duty finder tomorrow, can i trap some friends to run whatever i need to run with me
...
0) if the tank gets kicked out i'll just leave myself too

Having played all roles in dungeons for me it's usually leave the tank to run at their pace. Unless something is said at the start of a dungeon you don't know if the tank is new, inexperienced, nervous, etc. and people being nasty about it never helps anyone.

Personally I'm not a fan of tanking (least favorite role in the game), but I'll do it occasionally for levelling jobs and to help folks out - I'm a nervous tank so I don't tend to do big pulls until I'm comfortable with the dungeon and party setup. If the healer (and ONLY the healer) wants me to "pull big" I will do, but if they then get nasty after wiping then I'll just leave (no issue for me). Flip side, when I'm healing or DPS I'm fine with the Tank going at their own pace - if I didn't like a potentially long dungeon I wouldn't have queued or I would have used a pre-formed party rather than roulettes. If other folk get nasty with tanks (or healers for that matter) when there's no justification then I'll happily vote kick them.

I've been doing a lot of leveling, going through MSQ on two characters, so the majority of tanks I encounter have been the single pulling kind. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, although wall 2 wall pulls tend to me more exciting, especially when I'm healing.

I've yet to spend more than 30 mins in a dungeon single pull runs can be pretty quick regardless with holy spam and some half decent DPS. I prefer a tank pull at the pace they are most comfortable with than try to wall 2 wall because it's 'what they're supposed to do' and give my poor whm bum a heart attack by failing to understand proper CD management.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

What is the consensus when a tank does small pulls?

Picture it. Everyone loads in and say their preferred greetings. The tank runs out of the gate and pulls 2 tadpoles.

How do you react?

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I think to myself, "Good, they're checking to see if the healer and DPS are competent, and hopefully they'll ramp it up once they see that the group can handle it"
If after the 3rd pull, they're still going slow, I'll let them know that I think we're ok to do more, but I'm not going to make a fuss about it.
Also important to let them know that they don't have to go from "cautious pulls" to "balls-to-the-wall" pulls.
If they were doing one pack at a time, let's try two now, and so on, and so on

depends on what im playing as. do i have any AoEs yet? do i want the content over quickly, or do i just want a casual relaxing run?

As a healer: "more dps time for me ^.^ "
As a dps: ima pop every cooldown i got on this thing then lb its corpse"

Most leveling dungeons (15-49,51-59,61-69,71-79) it’s abit harder to W2W (wall to wall) if even possible.

Otherwise your hindering progress if your not doing W2W as a tank, a debate can be made to have healers DPS more but even then it hardly matters due to how trivial dungeons have become. If you can’t be asked to dare yourself into tackling more enemies on evened content, probably switch to another job

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Most leveling dungeons (15-49,51-59,61-69,71-79) it’s abit harder to W2W (wall to wall) if even possible.

Otherwise your hindering progress if your not doing W2W as a tank, a debate can be made to have healers DPS more but even then it hardly matters due to how trivial dungeons have become. If you can’t be asked to dare yourself into tackling more enemies on evened content, probably switch to another job

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Most leveling dungeons until you get to ShB dungeons are pretty light and breezy in terms of wall-to-walls. Gets easier as you go in the ShB ones too as you get more comfortable with the added necessity for attention and proper use of cooldowns, but the initial first few Holminster runs may come as a bit of a surprise because of the boost in difficulty compared to the dungeons you’ve ran prior.

Depends on mood / time of the night.

Bad day / almost time to go to bed ? I kill reluctantly the first 2 then if I see him pull just 2 again I quit cause not in the mood to waste powerful CDs and take 30min to do what can be be done in 15.
I have been playing for 6 years and it only happened 5 times, 2 of which in HS when SMN was all about the 1min CD for AOE and nothing between so you would absolutely want a big pack or it would feel super frustrating.

Normal day / beginning or middle of evening ? I sigh and begin "casual play" mode where I mostly solo target to still have it engaging for me (still doing more DPS than most pugs on 3 targets so it is not really hindering).

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

I usually try and encourage bigger pulls by being very nice and charming! Tanks shouldn't be scared, ever! ^^

Sometimes it actually works! Other times... I'll have to help out a little with the pulling!

Healers privilege? :D

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I try to do 2 packs-1 pack-2-pack etc, mostly to spread cds evenly and be more safe and let the healer breath a bit.

As new player though (I’m lvl 80 but started 3 months ago), nothing more annoying than DPS or healers rushing ahead to pull.
Targeting in this game is already not that good and having to do extra steps just for agro instead of getting them all in a single AoE... especially if you try to pull 2+ packs.

I don’t know why people do that. Personally I always played DPS in games but always stayed behind the tank.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

0) if the tank gets kicked out i'll just leave myself too

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You’re a good man lad, I’d do the same. Thankfully I never find myself in this situation (as tank or dps).

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

I try to do 2 packs-1 pack-2-pack etc, mostly to spread cds evenly and be more safe and let the healer breath a bit.

As new player though (I’m lvl 80 but started 3 months ago), nothing more annoying than DPS or healers rushing ahead to pull.
Targeting in this game is already not that good and having to do extra steps just for agro instead of getting them all in a single AoE... especially if you try to pull 2+ packs.

I don’t know why people do that. Personally I always played DPS in games but always stayed behind the tank.



You’re a good man lad, I’d do the same. Thankfully I never find myself in this situation (as tank or dps).

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I'd like to let you know that while the sentiment is great, the most healers have to do on downtime is spam 1 aoe spell over and over, and if youre pulling small enough packs they may not even get to do that. It is 100% safe to pull 3 packs at a time for most level 80 dungeons, level 70 and level 60 dungeons. I remember levelling WHM, and telling a tank who was pulling small "You can pull big. I want to feel alive."

We died, of course, but went right back into that pull and were fine, and the rest of the subsequent pulls were also fine. If you notice even in small pulls that your health is going down consistently, ask your healer if they'd be fine with big pulls. Sometimes they're playing hooky with your health just to have something to do other than press 1.

As a tank, I typically have gotten bigger with my pulls as time goes on. I can also count on both hands how many times I've died because of said pulls, in my hundreds of dungeon runs. What I do is aggro one enemy with my ranged attack, run past the rest while AOE-ing, and do the same for the next few packs until I've hit a wall where I can't go on any further. Any stragglers are typically brought back to me by DPS, and what isn't I can quickly aggro using my enemy list to target and ranged attack/voke. Then it's just a matter of dodging AOEs and using my 123 aoe combo.

As a healer, in the beginning of a level cap dungeon I let the tank know they can pull w2w, and if it's not a level cap dungeon I let them know they can pull more than 2 packs. With only 2 packs or 1 pack, I'll just spam my aoe and might not even heal the tank because they don't hit hard enough to do enough damage before the next pack. It's boring. But with more than that, I get the chance to actually heal, maybe even use CDs.

I'll ask if the tank can do larger pulls as I'll ensure to keep them alive and let 'em know of any skills they might need to use when pulling larger packs.

It's not just about clearing the dungeon faster, for me anyway, killing several small packs of mobs just isn't as fun as pulling a big back and nuking them down with all our big AOE skills.

Tanks set the pace. If you don't like it, you can politely leave and re-queue (after whatever penalty you get for leaving). And I don't mean this negatively. People deserve to play with other people who share their playstyle.

If I see a tank single pulling in a levelling dungeon I will usually pull ahead and bring mobs to them in order to nudge them to go faster regardless of my role. Contrary to popular belief, the tank does not actually set the pace on their own, it’s a team effort. Since we are no longer living in the days of Flash and aggro management, there is no reasonable excuse for a tank to not aoe multiple packs and rotate their cooldowns.

I see some people citing gear as a concern, which is baffling because gear in this game is extremely easy to get. I usually check both the tank’s and healer’s gear at the start of the dungeon, and depending on what I see I may leave outright if they are using severely outdated or NQ gear which I know will slow the dungeon down significantly-or worse, gear intended for crafters/gatherers. Another easy sign to know when you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing is when they are a tank/healer who hasn’t unlocked glamours yet in post-50 content. Those players don’t care about how they look and don’t seem to care about playing correctly either.

Simply put, I do not want to spend 30-40 minutes in a dungeon when I know that most can be completed in under 20, if not 15 minutes or less. If a tank is new to a dungeon and they don’t want to use trusts, please pull at minimum 2 packs at a time. This lets me know that you are at least trying to play somewhat efficiently. However if they cannot do even that, or explode on me or other party members for pulling ahead-I will not deal with their ego. I’ll simply leave and they can find someone else to carry them while I bake cookies in Limsa.

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

I try to do 2 packs-1 pack-2-pack etc, mostly to spread cds evenly and be more safe and let the healer breath a bit.

As new player though (I’m lvl 80 but started 3 months ago), nothing more annoying than DPS or healers rushing ahead to pull.
Targeting in this game is already not that good and having to do extra steps just for agro instead of getting them all in a single AoE... especially if you try to pull 2+ packs.

I don’t know why people do that. Personally I always played DPS in games but always stayed behind the tank.



You’re a good man lad, I’d do the same. Thankfully I never find myself in this situation (as tank or dps).

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Oh, I'll let ya know if I pull and am sure you'll be fine if you just use a single AoE while I spam a single healing spell right next to you so you can actually aggro them all! Basically you'll have to use less spells to aggro them if a healers pulls for you :p

I don't do that to people that tell me it's their first time. However, if I see them using their skills properly, I'll encourage em to go a little more ham! They're a Tank after all, not some meek RDM! :3

No need for anyone to pull ahead if the tank does the pulling tho! :p

In the end its about having fun and uh... Using a single spell all dungeon isn't quite... Fun! That's the healers curse, or is it a gift? I don't know anymore :D

Also, wipes aren't a bad thing or something anyone should throw a fit over! It's a very natural thing and part of progression, learning etc.

Don't be scared to go ham, little tanks! Your healers will keep you alive, or we'll wipe. Both is fine and more fun than no risk at all, no? ^^

Make sure to let your healers know youre gonna go ham beforehand tho, same when pulling for your tank :P

Here are a few things about me.
I have a tank char, but I also have a lousy memory, so remembering how the dungeon/raid looks like from start to end is simply not possible for me atm.
So instead of risking it, I do small(er) pulls, so we do not get overwhelmed.
Sometimes I have friends with me on Discord that reminds me, "You can take the tree groups here with np," and sometimes, I might remember parts of the dungeon.
Now, why do I tell you this? Because I also don't blame anyone except myself if we wipe not the healer and def. not the DPS, but me and I hate to fail, so take it carefully instead of wiping is a must for me.
Some may think I'm wrong to blame everything on me, but I also have a healer (in a different game), and I know how hard it is to heal an unknown tank and at the same time do some DPS, so in my eyes tanking is always easy whats hard is for the healer to keep me alive.

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Originally Posted by Aron73

Here are a few things about me.
I have a tank char, but I also have a lousy memory, so remembering how the dungeon/raid looks like from start to end is simply not possible for me atm.
So instead of risking it, I do small(er) pulls, so we do not get overwhelmed.
Sometimes I have friends with me on Discord that reminds me, "You can take the tree groups here with np," and sometimes, I might remember parts of the dungeon.
Now, why do I tell you this? Because I also don't blame anyone except myself if we wipe not the healer and def. not the DPS, but me and I hate to fail, so take it carefully instead of wiping is a must for me.
Some may think I'm wrong to blame everything on me, but I also have a healer (in a different game), and I know how hard it is to heal an unknown tank and at the same time do some DPS, so in my eyes tanking is always easy whats hard is for the healer to keep me alive.

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A wipe a day, keeps the doctor away ^^

Dying doesn't mean you did anything wrong per se, or that you or anyone else is to blame :p

We're a team, so we live and/or die together. And we're having fun doing it :D

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

A wipe a day, keeps the doctor away ^^

Dying doesn't mean you did anything wrong per se, or that you or anyone else is to blame :p

We're a team, so we live and/or die together. And we're having fun doing it :D

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I will keep those kind words in mind. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

What is the consensus when a tank does small pulls?

Picture it. Everyone loads in and say their preferred greetings. The tank runs out of the gate and pulls 2 tadpoles.

How do you react?

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I kill what the tank pulls (and heal as needed if I'm the healer) then wait for the tank to pull more.

Not everyone is an experienced tank. Many are trying to get a feel for what they're doing and how to use their defensive cooldowns. I'd rather go slow than have an inexperienced tank get overwhelmed so the party dies.

Then there are experienced tanks that go slow at first because they're not certain what the rest of the party is capable of doing. No use pulling wall to wall if the healer only casts Medica, Helios or Succor, or the DPS will only spam their base single target attack. Once they're satisfied they've got a competent group, they'll pick up the pace.

If you're assuming a tank in high level dungeons, trials or raids knows what they're doing because they got the job to a high level, think again. You can level a tank job to 80 without stepping foot into instanced group content as a tank. A lot of players pick up a tank job for the "survivability" when doing solo content. They don't have to worry about healing or use of defensive cooldowns that way even if it means things die slower. Sometimes they'll decide they want to try real tanking after they reach level cap, and they're at a serious disadvantage if roulette throws them into something like Bardam's Mettle for their first duty as a tank.

Be patient. Make polite suggestions if they're aren't wilting under those 2 tadpoles (which does happen when the tank is not only inexperienced but undergeared).

If you're desperate to be in control of what a tank does, then be the tank yourself.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If you're desperate to be in control of what a tank does, then be the tank yourself.

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Amen brother !
If I could, I would visit your world and /pet you as I do for every kind lalafell.

Sadly this is something you see in other games aswell. I remember my last few weeks in WoW doing dungeons, people were spitting at a tank for basically nothing (even not healing him). Because he didn’t take 2 packs or something. Was sad to see.

Basic behavior would be to stay behind the tank and let him do his thing, if he’s new/inexperienced yea give some tips but let him/her get the hang of tanking too. Like if you aggro, stay close to the tank so they can grab them easily with an AoE. But I rarely see that.

I will only say about the max level dungeons, as before that I'll just assume your are learning, but everyone that already have any job to lvl 80 should know how lvl 50+ dungeons works by then, whatever your base job, so I would be pretty ticked if you still single pull at max lvl. Tanking is just about going in a straight line, take 2 packs of mobs, pop 2 cd and aoe, it's probably the role with the less responsibility in shb as bad dps makes it hard for the healer to sustain his resources and the healer should know his kit and not spam cure1. Max lvl dungeons are supposed to be wall to wall, the healing is minimal and if you can't do it, there is a big problem and I'll wonder if you even tried to learn anything during your leveling -if you don't have any disabilities- (I'll not attack people in game, i'll just put music or a video and wait for it to finish). But people that defend those that actually can't support wall to wall pulling at max lvl are just ableist.

On top of that, saying a tank should be the one leading the pace is just giving even more stress to the stressed people too, there's no rule about that and if someone dont know the way (in a straight line and where 95% of the dungeons are just 2 packs per wall post lvl 50 somehow) you can just lead the way and if you pull it's way easier for them to take enmity with aoes.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

On top of that, saying a tank should be the one leading the pace is just giving even more stress to the stressed people too, there's no rule about that and if someone dont know the way (in a straight line and where 95% of the dungeons are just 2 packs per wall post lvl 50 somehow) you can just lead the way and if you pull it's way easier for them to take enmity with aoes.

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It's pretty simple. You let the tank set the pace because if the tank gets overwhelmed and dies, everyone else is dead. You're going to end up wasting a lot more time having to rez and run back than you will if the tank is only pulling one group at a time.

Not everyone is a MMO vet, not even if they're level 80. You don't know if that player boosted and so only has 10 levels of tanking for Trust as experience.

Tanks do start pulling more once they're feeling more confident. If you don't want to deal with a novice tank, make certain you party and queue with a tank you trust.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's pretty simple. You let the tank set the pace because if the tank gets overwhelmed and dies, everyone else is dead. You're going to end up wasting a lot more time having to rez and run back than you will if the tank is only pulling one group at a time.

Not everyone is a MMO vet, not even if they're level 80. You don't know if that player boosted and so only has 10 levels of tanking for Trust as experience.

Tanks do start pulling more once they're feeling more confident. If you don't want to deal with a novice tank, make certain you party and queue with a tank you trust.

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How can they get overwhelmed and die... it's literally a question of running through 2 packs, using an aoe on each pack then spamming aoes, if you die or not is depending of the healer and the dps, not about whatever you can do as a tank outside of pressing 2 of your cooldown.

Worse, taking single pull make the cooldown usage hectic because of the cd's and the speed of killing, same if you have a scholar, single pull make them burn through ressources way faster than double pull and make them have burn through their mana way faster

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's pretty simple. You let the tank set the pace because if the tank gets overwhelmed and dies, everyone else is dead. You're going to end up wasting a lot more time having to rez and run back than you will if the tank is only pulling one group at a time.

Not everyone is a MMO vet, not even if they're level 80. You don't know if that player boosted and so only has 10 levels of tanking for Trust as experience.

Tanks do start pulling more once they're feeling more confident. If you don't want to deal with a novice tank, make certain you party and queue with a tank you trust.

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Then I'm not sure why they would buy boosts and then do trusts and never learn how to play their role?

I know people talk about big pulls like it's pulling 10 things all at once (Yes, certain times big pulls can get this big), but a lot of the big pulls are... well... tiny at the beginning of the game. ARR and HW dungeons are especially guilty of this. Sohm Al for example has 2 lizards to pull and then there's another 2 lizards like 10 feet away and then you hit a wall. So the BIG pull in question is 4 things. 4!

I will cut a tank some slack if they have the sprout symbol and the new player notification pops up. But when does it end on the personal responsibility front? What dungeon/trial/level can I queue in and be confident that people know how their role works? I'm not talking about knowing everything about the dungeon/trial/whatever in question. I'm talking just doing their part as well as they can.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

I'm not sure if you're serious, but thank you for the laugh either way.
When it's getting late and I'm not feeling it, leaving is definitely an option.

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I'm serious.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's pretty simple. You let the tank set the pace because if the tank gets overwhelmed and dies, everyone else is dead. You're going to end up wasting a lot more time having to rez and run back than you will if the tank is only pulling one group at a time.

Not everyone is a MMO vet, not even if they're level 80. You don't know if that player boosted and so only has 10 levels of tanking for Trust as experience.

Tanks do start pulling more once they're feeling more confident. If you don't want to deal with a novice tank, make certain you party and queue with a tank you trust.

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If you die to a two pack pull either the healer was AFK and/or the tank stood in every orange circle possible. In which case, the pull size or their experience isn't the issue but their blatant lack of common sense. Medium pulls simply don't deal much damage. If you can't handle them, you have no business queuing for 60+ content. Let alone 80. Go back into the baby dungeons and get a better handle on the game mechanics.

The whole excuse "people aren't MMO veterans" needs to stop. The above isn't an example of a novice player getting their feet wet. It's someone who hasn't figured out even the basics of their chosen job yet willingly queued for Shadowbringers content and expected everyone else to simply "deal with it." Likewise, boosting is not an excuse. Go spam ARR dungeons or use Trusts. Forcing three other people to go slow because you couldn't be bothered to run Stone Vigil or use Trust NPCs is just selfish. This hypothetical person clearly didn't care about the experience of anyone else. So why should they care about theirs?

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

How can they get overwhelmed and die... it's literally a question of running through 2 packs, using an aoe on each pack then spamming aoes, if you die or not is depending of the healer and the dps, not about whatever you can do as a tank outside of pressing 2 of your cooldown.

Worse, taking single pull make the cooldown usage hectic because of the cd's and the speed of killing, same if you have a scholar, single pull make them burn through ressources way faster than double pull and make them have burn through their mana way faster

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You're talking like a veteran MMO player.

Try seeing things from the perspective of someone who has never played a MMO before, who doesn't understand AoE or mitigation or defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

Then I'm not sure why they would buy boosts and then do trusts and never learn how to play their role?

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Here's a little anecdote to demonstrate how we end up with new players who don't really know what they're doing. A friend from my old FC was just telling me last night that he convinced his sister to start playing and he plans to have her on his raid team when Endwalker releases. I asked him what other MMOs she's played in the past and he's "I don't know, do they have MMOs on Xbox? She's only played Xbox games until now".

That's how you get players at level cap who don't have a clue what they're doing.

They do it because they get told that end game is where the game in a MMO begins and that leveling is boring.

They do it because they feel pressured into it by friends who want them to rush to level cap but aren't willing to play with their friend and guide them to learning the job.

They do it because they don't understand that being a Paladin or Warrior or Dark Knight or Gunbreaker means being a tank and frequently don't even know what a tank is. The Holy Trinity does not exist outside of MMOs and isn't even used in all MMOs.

One of the big problems I see with character creation is the available starting classes are lumped together as either Disciple of War or Disciple of Magic. That does nothing to tell the player what role the class plays in a dungeon and what's expected of the role. It's not helpful to a new player that's just trying to pick a class that sounds cool to them with no idea what to expect.

SE needs to revamp character creation in a lot of ways, but especially when it comes to starting classes. Break classes down by role, list what jobs they become and also list what other jobs in each role can be unlocked through game play later. That way when someone goes "I've heard so much about Dark Knight, I want to be one" they can think "okay it is a Tank role so until I'm able to unlock it, I probably want to play Gladiator or Marauder because they will be similar".

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If you die to a two pack pull either the healer was AFK and/or the tank stood in every orange circle possible. In which case, the pull size or their experience isn't the issue but their blatant lack of common sense. Medium pulls simply don't deal much damage. If you can't handle them, you have no business queuing for 60+ content. Let alone 80. Go back into the baby dungeons and get a better handle on the game mechanics.

The whole excuse "people aren't MMO veterans" needs to stop. The above isn't an example of a novice player getting their feet wet. It's someone who hasn't figured out even the basics of their chosen job yet willingly queued for Shadowbringers content and expected everyone else to simply "deal with it." Likewise, boosting is not an excuse. Go spam ARR dungeons or use Trusts. Forcing three other people to go slow because you couldn't be bothered to run Stone Vigil or use Trust NPCs is just selfish. This hypothetical person clearly didn't care about the experience of anyone else. So why should they care about theirs?

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And you're assuming that everyone else in the group will be a veteran MMO player who knows exactly what they are doing. I'm leveling another alt right now and most of my dungeon groups have been all sprouts. I've had to coach many of them in what to expect. My Titan party went through 7 wipes before we got him down because they didn't know the fight and were having a hard time remembering what to do even though I gave them a couple of tips before we started (like avoid Landslide at all costs) and continued to give them tips as we progressed (when he disappears move to the edge but don't stand in red, always move immediately when you see something under you instead of trying to finish a cast first, get the player out of the gaol fast, etc).

But at least I've got the patience to help them through rather than rage quit a group because they aren't performing to some high standard.

Like it or not, players not being MMO veterans is a very real thing. It's even worse when they get convinced to boost their character by others so they get overwhelmed with 30+ skills all at once and they're trying to sort out what they're supposed to do with them. It's something that those of us who have been playing them for decades need to remember.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

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For most of what you said it was about sprout and stuff, and those we are helping them. The problem is at max level.

But you need to understand that if they boosted without a friend, then get overwhelmed: it's their fault, not ours.
If it was with a friend: the friend could have helped them, and if you boosted, that means you know boost exist so you could literally have looked the job online to see what's the role of which job you wanted to pick, if you didn't and get deceived, not our problem.
And if you began at low level, you could have swapped during your leveling, you could have learned if the job attracted you and people will guide you during the leveling if you ask. There's the hall of the novice too that will explain all those things.

I'm not leaving if I see someone single pulling, i ll just do with it, but that doesnt remove the fact that if they are in my expert roulette and not a first timer: they are just sucking hard. You underestimate the number of people with multiple jobs at lvl 80, even in -reclears- of extreme or savage that will still single pull, dont use cds or know half of their kit. If you are at lvl 80, you need to at least have an idea of what is expected from you.