Long story short... calling people out for playing badly is against ToS; it's harassment. And overall, I understand this sentiment.
This is why I've always tried to be as encouraging as possible. If we wipe, be like "Hey, it's okay, that caught us off guard, but we know for next time, we can do this!" I want players to grow and improve, not shrink inwards and suffer for negative experiences.
Here's the problem: As a healer, sometimes there's those players that just... can't be kept up with, you know? The players who stand in EVERYTHING, expecting to just be babysat through every mechanic?
What's the best way of dealing with those players as a mentor?
I had such an experience tonight. I forgot to turn off my mentor crown before going into Alliance Raids (As much as I WANT to offer advice, it's pointless since someone always pulls immediately and there's no time to type!) I had to start leaving two players (My alliance's tank, and a monk) dead whenever we could get away with it. The tank in particular was being a total smartass, sassing every comment everyone made. I had to apologize to the party for being less free with the revives due to limited resources, and the tank sassed me by saying "Resources are things like woods or metals, mana is a pool, you have enough." It was becoming very clear this guy had no intention of changing their ways. So I just grit my teeth and resolved to do my best to keep everyone else alive as best I could - and the tank if I had resources to spare.
We had some first timers I regrettably couldn't explain mechanics to, and they thought it was their fault, so I had to try to encourage them, like "No, no, it's okay, most of you are fine, especially you, other healer, promise!" When we finally won after several very sloppy wipes, I praised the people who were clearly being down on themselves, including two first timers and someone who hadn't done it in a long time. The tank jumped on this. "Saying the rest of us sucked, huh? How did you become a mentor when you're that toxic?" Flabbergasted at his aggression, I told him off for it, explaining that they stood in EVERYTHING and NO healer has enough resources to babysit that. I ended on "No offense, but I'm not the problem" and just left, when I had originally intended to stick around and offer more detailed advice to the others so they'd be better prepared for next time. And it feels bad. (And yes, I'm basically openly admitting to breaking ToS, because I admit my mistakes and learn from them. Case in point: coming here to ask for advice!)
How do the rest of you handle players like that? Is there some kind of community guideline, or is it on a case-by-case basis? In the event of a case-by-case basis, in this kind of scenario, what would YOU have personally done? How does one encourage the players who need encouragement without drawing the ire of people like this tank, and IF the tank gets on your case, how do you deal with it?
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09-04-2021, 01:16 PMRanylynSerious Question: New Mentor seeking community advice on dealing with bad players.
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09-04-2021, 01:29 PMKes13a
one reason I never got the mentor icon is because, I dont mind helping people. not in it for the rewards or a title.
I help where I can. I do my best to be supportive of new people, let them know if I can whats coming up etc. if the mechs are tough for first timers certainly try and explain it to them.
difficult people, be they tanks, healers or dps, I just deal with and move on. if they die, I raise them as I would anyone else, and I certainly wouldnt leave them laying on the floor.
but thats just the way I heal, everyone is equal, even if they are an idiot. I have one job, to heal and to rez, and toss in damage if no one needs healing or rezzing. to me, leaving people laying on the floor is just plain rude. so I couldnt do it even if they are a complete jerkface. -
09-04-2021, 01:29 PMItMe
Don't offer advice, ask if anyone wants help.
If no, you've done your job.
If they're looking for help and still stink, do your best and you've done your job. -
09-04-2021, 01:38 PMSturmChurroAgreed. A player should only offer advice if asked, or in rare circumstances. The only time I will ever offer 'unsolicited' advice is if we have wiped several times, and I state the mechanic, and what should be done, rather than calling someone in the party our for doing something wrong... I'm pretty sure you can get reported and banned for calling someone out anyway - not worth it. If I think DPS is low, and I'm annoyed, I might say "our" dps seems low, or something along those lines, again not calling anyone out, and including myself even though I know it's not me (usually).Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
In the case of a tank like this, you can always use the kick function, if that is what you think is necessary. -
09-04-2021, 01:52 PMRanylynI generally try to do that exact thing, actually. Ask if anyone needs help, not offer it if no one speaks up, and so on. Fortunately, I've never had BOTH someone who DID want advice AND someone who spoke up about wanting the blind experience in the same party, yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
The problem is... more and more, lately, I've been seeing parties that... honestly... make me feel like *I'M* the problem, like "I'M the one carrying these people to the endgame! I'M the reason I see people who don't dodge easily avoidable AoEs in Post Shadowbringers trials like the Seat of Sacrifice, or the Cloud Deck!" And I just... it feels like I'm failing as a mentor. My advice goes in one ear and out the other and nothing ever changes and somehow those people make it to endgame without understanding the core fundamental mechanics. There has to be more I can do as a mentor, and I just don't know what. (Doesn't help that every time I poke my head into the Novice Network, several other mentors are too busy teaching people how to make a Healers Adjust Superbolide Removal macro to actually mentor. I stopped going to help out in there since memelord mentors are just making my job harder.)
I dunno, am I just stressing over nothing? Am I seeing a losing battle where it's not even my fight to fight? I admit I have a bad habit of getting too emotionally invested into my tasks, and taking things so seriously that hobbies become jobs. It can be hard for me to tell, sometimes.
In response to SturmChurro, regarding kicking, IIRC kicking someone for being a bad player is also against ToS, but you have a fair point. I'm always afraid to kick people but harassment is a kickable offense and their attitude was absolutely crossing into that. I'll try to be more mindful of it in the future, thanks!
EDIT: So just to clarify: Everyone messes up sometimes. I'm not going "One vuln stack is one bad player." I mean people who consistently just STAND in everything. People who have several seconds to move to safety just 5 steps away and just sit there, every time, without any kind of obvious lag tells. Just in case I wasn't clear. -
09-04-2021, 02:15 PMItMeSeems to me like you're really putting your heart into this ♡Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranylyn
That's admirable~
I used to be a middle school teacher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranylyn
I would sometimes feel the same way when I had to meet a student much more than halfway in order to try and help them.
I learned that not everyone is interested in learning (compounded in your situation since they're not at school but chilling in a videogame), and that it wasn't my job to force them to learn (this is especially true for you too).
You're not there to make everyone better at the game, that's an impossible task.
Do what you can, help those that want it, and maybe try to encourage disinterested parties. The fact that you're fretting about this shows your heart is in the right place, but the failures of other players is not automatically put on your plate as your responsibility to correct. Heck, the game is designed so people can get carried through a pretty surprising amount of content cuz some people are just here for the story. And if the game isn't stopping them and saying "time to get better," a mentor probably shouldn't either.
If you're approachable and have a nifty bag of helpful resources you're doing super ~
I fear I rambled a bit there, but hopefully that helps~
If you are truly unsatisfied and can't shake the feeling that you should be doing more... maybe spend some more time in the Novice Network?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranylyn
That's a good place for helpful people to be. -
09-04-2021, 02:17 PMSturmChurroThe thing is, if someone doesn't want to learn, or is set in their ways - they simply aren't going to take any of your advice to heart. They have their own way of doing things, and nothing you say or do will really change that. A person who is willing to receive advice has to be actively wanting to improve. It really just requires a certain mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranylyn
Kicking for "difference in playstyles" is supposedly a legitimate kick, however one shouldn't go around and say they are kicking a player because they "are bad", or whatever, as that would probably be a legitimate report and maybe even a strike or warning. If that player is actively harassing you or others, then that is also worthy of a report, if you so choose, as well. -
09-04-2021, 02:22 PMRanylynQuote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
As an IRL tutor, myself, everything you just said makes perfect sense to me. While I've never had a student who TRULY "refused" to learn, they were ALL resistant, because they were falling through the cracks of the education system so how could I help them when the professionals couldn't?
I guess that's where this urge to be a better mentor is coming from, if I had to guess. I've never "failed" to teach a student before. It was always just a matter of working with them for a bit, learning how they learn, recontextualizing their classwork into a format they can digest, and once we have proof it works, start teaching them how to convert the things their textbooks and teachers say INTO that format. For example, for someone who just looks at a wall of text and locks up, it was sometimes a matter of things like color coded charts to break it up into easily digestible pieces, etc.
The thing is... that's a process that takes WEEKS. I have MINUTES with players in FF14. I can't compare the two experiences, they're apples and car tires.
Thanks for helping me put it into perspective by bringing up the school teacher angle. You've really helped me a lot, and I'm very grateful!
You too, SturmChurro! You've given me a lot to think about! -
09-04-2021, 03:04 PMFyrebrand
So you're a mentor, with every single combat job at level 80, despite having only played for a few days?
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09-04-2021, 03:05 PMVyrerus
Yeah, it's definitely like ItMe put it. Ask if anyone needs help/hints/advice, and if they don't ask, then that's OK.
A lot of players are resistant to learning anyway, in what's supposed to be a fun game, because it's supposed to be a fun game. They don't want to sit down and read to learn things, even if it's helpful. There's also the fact that it's pretty much a meme at this point that most people who are mentors are terrible players, teachers, people, and whatever else. So a lot of people are predisposed to try and more or less, "callout" that a mentor doesn't know what they're talking about/is bad person etc.
It helps to ignore these types of people, and do what you think is best. Especially if you're succeeding in spite of their mishaps.
Herding MMO players is somewhat like herding cats. It verges on the impossible. You could know exactly what needs to be done for a fight, all of the jobs involved, and how best to disseminate that information to your group... and there will always be the people who think you are wrong or you've misremembered or you're going off some guide that's inferior to their guide. So they'll argue with you, out of ill placed confidence on their part.
It's somewhat related to the Dunning-Kreuger effect, which describes the psychological phenomena where a person who isn't very skilled at something may think they are a master of it, whereas a near master of something will downplay their mastery, because they know exactly just how many mistakes they are making (Basically one person isn't aware that they aren't good, and they have no reason to think they are bad, so they continue thinking they are good(and perhaps even have a superiority complex). The other person is aware that they can be bad, and are bad sometimes, so they think since they aren't perfect that they can't be good). -
09-04-2021, 03:08 PMRanylynI just made my forum account today. I've been playing since 2019. Just in case there was any confusion. They synced it up but I still needed to make a forum account (Username, etc) to tie to my main account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
That said, Vyrerus, the Dunning-Krueger effect is a VERY apt thing to bring up. I've been acutely aware of it ever since I first learned about it since I tend to be something of a jack of all trades but master of none. I know enough about things to realize how little I know about things, which used to lead to frustration like "How are others even more ignorant than me on this topic!?" It took me years of my life to reprogram my brain to stop being toxic about it, since I finally learned to acknowledge that I was above average and only recognized my own failures because of it. That's when I grew to understand the failures of others. And I feel like in focusing so hard on my own failures as a mentor, I was basically failing to recognize that it's not always my fault, and being too hard on myself again.
Definitely something to think about! -
09-04-2021, 03:11 PMJijifli
Just do what my own NN has told someone to do on this very question.
Don't give advice. Clearly they don't want it.
Only if they ask you for it, willingly, without even you asking if they want it or not, should you, otherwise, you're deserving of any response you'd get for daring to assist someone. -
09-04-2021, 03:18 PMAlyaNimfa
Just 2 cents from a sprout:
Please keep helping and being kind to us! We don't know mechanics and we are learning, it's people who don't flare up and take time to explain before a pull that get us through and teach us. While not every new player will show appreciation a lot of us will listen and will learn. I usually show my appreciation at the end with a comm (even though I don't know if they're really all that sort after).
This game is massive, and even FCs aren't very helpful. It's tough to get things explained, it's demoralizing being in an dungeon and spending more time licking the floor than playing (especially when you have no idea what killed you).
You are appreciated, keep going!
I've never been in a novice network, but I hear they're rough so never really had a desire to figure out how to join it. Random helpy nice people are GREAT. -
09-04-2021, 03:30 PMRein_eon_Osborne
In general—like others’ had already mentioned—give advice only when asked.
The only time I personally would proactively give out advice is when said players’ gameplay is so detrimental to the group that it risks wipes, or already wipes the group. Even then I only do so if I’m sure my words are as least offensive as possible, or if I have the energy to handle in event the recipient isn’t being receptive.
Sometimes there are just those days you don’t feel like helping & would rather invest your energy for yourself, and that is fine. Don’t force yourself to help if they’re aren’t willing to receive your help. -
09-04-2021, 03:35 PMRanylynPeople like you are definitely part of why I love helping newer players. Thank you for doing your best!Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa
People deserve a supportive hand to help them along the learning curve, especially earlier on before markers become standardized. Sometimes things aren't clear or intuitive, and it's super easy to get demoralized. Even I sometimes forget the jank in older fights (Recently, the level 53 dungeon's second midboss made me go "Wait, RED was stack and BLUE was spread, right?" I was right, but I actually paused to question it since it's not clearly telegraphed like later fights that have a very clear Stack Marker!) so how can we expect newer players to have everything mastered already?
You also make a good point about FCs; a lot of them just care about getting more members and not forming a good community. I remember back in 2019 when I world Transferred from Diabolos to Brynhildr to join the same FC as my friends. Before I even loaded in, I had an FC invite from "the biggest FC on the server" just trying to bolster their numbers. It was utterly ridiculous; who was I to these people, and why did they want me? I naturally declined. I wish I had good advice regarding FCs; I just tend to stick with friends these days, due to bad experiences with random ones. -
09-04-2021, 03:45 PMKrotoan
The only thing I can find to criticize was your need to "tell off" the tank. It sounds like you tried your best but were hard blocked by the limits of the medium and people you were trying to teach.
Once that tank had tried to say that it was my fault I would have ignored them and left. If a valid attempt has been made and people will not listen or adjust to the point that you cannot pass basic content.. there's nothing more I think anyone could really expect of you.
Arguing with someone like that rarely has a good outcome and there are much better uses of your own time , such as helping people who want to improve or are simply ignorant instead of hopeless.
Keep trying. I think you have the true spirit of the "Mentor" program in mind. There are literally thousands of people out there who are receptive to assistance and guidance and for every "bad seed" there are hundreds of sprouts ready to grow. -
09-04-2021, 03:55 PMKolsykolSometimes someone needs help but doesn't know that they need help.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
And it's a total Russian roulette whether they'll lose their shit at you or be grateful.
You shouldn't be rude about it but even if you really bend over backwards to be as polite as you possibly can be people will interpret it as a personal attack if you notice that they're not doing a single positional and/ or are standing in front of the boss and get hit by AoE.
It's like they're embarrassed that someone noticed they don't know what they're doing and instead of accepting the help they get mad.
Heck even if they don't care about positionals and don't even want to make that effort, instead of saying that they often either lie to your face and pretend like they have a permanent true north buff or they get mad.
Or both. -
09-04-2021, 04:14 PMAziraSyuren
"Can I offer some advice?"
And, if you get particularly exasperated, apologize preemptively for anything negative about your tone.
Mentoring through example is also an option. Most people don't take note (maybe unless you're playing a healer), but some do, especially your friends who might be new to the game. -
09-04-2021, 05:30 PMJettinson
Experience will always vary, people will learn the hard way or easy way, in the end don't force yourself too hard and chances are better if people ask first.
Major examples always comes to mind with Dun Scaith where people rarely ask about mechankcs but if they die they put question marks or such and then you come in with the help.
Some will pre give advice because many do come from just roulette and want to be done over with just how every run in World of Darkness explain the Cerberus mechanic.
People will tell you off and whatever, nothing you can do about that attitude, just keep yourself chill.
But remember that many do appreciate advice, they have their way of expressive stuff from silent to such -
09-04-2021, 05:40 PMKageTokage
I've run into only a single person who retorted with "I'd rather do this blind" when I pointed out the few meaningful mechanics in an ARR EX trial, though I've run into multiple who started getting cheeky when I politely pointed out something they were doing noticeably wrong.
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09-04-2021, 05:45 PMAyuhra
First off: Don't stop helping people.
Second: That tank sounds like the sort of person who just will not take advice no matter how politely it's given. I think with those people once it's obvious that they aren't listening just don't bother. Not worth getting into any arguments over.
I'm not a mentor and never will be because I am so often just awful at this game but even as a veteran ...who is quite bad... I will take advice when it's given politely and is actually advice. It sounds like you give actual advice. (Non-helpful comments are ones like "Wow, I haven't seen that mechanic in ages, we usually get the boss down before that!" or "lol, fail group". Not... really anything a player can take from comments like those.) -
09-04-2021, 06:10 PMJeeqbit
I would suggest keeping calm and not responding to people like that and if they say anything rude, report them.
Just heal them and continue doing DPS. It's really not a big deal. If they want to be good at the game they will google guides and join the balance. If they want to be a casual that doesn't understand how the game works then they will just keep being that. There is not a lot of casual content where it really matters if someone dies all the time, but if they do that more than once every 60 seconds then you can wait for swiftcast to give them time to think about their mistakes.
Saying "most" is attacking the ones not included in "most" and even if they didn't perform well it's not worth being rude to them or making the game a rude place. It's just casual content and if you need to resurrect them 50 times, then resurrect them 50 times.
You don't need to explain the mechanics. If people want to know the mechanics they will look up a guide, otherwise maybe they want a blind run. If they ask about the mechanics then you could consider answering them if you have time.Quote:
I had such an experience tonight. I forgot to turn off my mentor crown before going into Alliance Raids (As much as I WANT to offer advice, it's pointless since someone always pulls immediately and there's no time to type!)
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09-04-2021, 07:13 PMRinhi
as a mentor who has gotten a ton of CT alliance raid roulettes lately: keep trying to help people, the big majority of players, not just sprouts will appreciate it, especially when they've forgotten the mechanics
what I usually see (and myself do) is players not saying anything past the greetings and start to do it blind unless it becomes clear that it'll be a run where a refresher on mechanics or tips are needed, where 1-3 other players will usually start to ask if tips are needed and subsequently explain the mechanics that need to be done
even then, you'll have probably 2-4 players doing less than the bare minimum or even straight up being afk and one tank that provokes on cooldown because it's funny ecks dee, but after having mechanics explained to them, people tend to put in a bit more effort than before, even those that already knew everything -
09-04-2021, 09:21 PMLianaThorneSurprisingly enough darling, some don't want to be on this cesspit of a forum unless they have to. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
Don't judge by join date on here xD -
09-04-2021, 10:01 PMItMe/fistbumpQuote:
Originally Posted by Ranylyn
It shows beneath our avatars when we joined the forums (looks like they joined within the last few days) but how can you tell how old someone's account is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
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09-05-2021, 12:21 AMKarthunk
The problem with "mentors"is that for every good one there are 20 who constantly give bad advise or are toxic. People learn the phrase "burger King crown" fairly quickly because they experience it first hand.
I spend roughly a hour last night helping a wht that was given what I can only fathom as troll information about how to play a wht from a mentor.