Why White-mage's lot spells bad game design

this highly situational ability has very niche. i am sighing when i write this cause i expect more much more from this ability. but it only really shines in raiding or some 4 man boss fights. be frankly its major heal spell that has very minor uses. and it makes me mad

players dont actually learn how to use this ability until 65-80 doesn't give you enough time practices this also depends actions of your teammates. and cant count how often my dps and -

I gonna be honest when say this. wish didn't have say this heart-breaking to say this but cure sucks. free-cure sucks. whole cure design currently sucks

Medica should be medica II can currently no one uses medica anymore. unless under the effects planetary delverance watch mind is unnessercy extra button to press just make these two spells and some others strongers. just so can double the power of your aoes.


1-49 whites mages have "no ogcds" and you will feel the effects of this when tanks pull wall to wall. only thing keepin them alive is one button spam for 49 levels. and only reason you cast "holy" is for it stun cause that damage it deal sucks its like hitting monsters wet noodle makes matters worse its 45 spell pbaoe and fire II hits harder

"But hey healers not so post do damage. tell that to scholar who has art of war that bloody murders stuff"

"But you have assize and blood lily .. yah you get blood lily 76 and assize upper 50 when your queueing for leveling rolate or dailies you have joy to use it. if you forced into a dungeon that is below 50 it is torture to play whm"

"but white mages have utility they have fluid aura. "Hiss" you listen here we don't talk about this ability here . its is highest decree of every white-mages frustration's healer job with no buffs. we lost aero III, White Mage Stable -Protect Stone skin had are spell nerfed to hit like wet noodle. sheer mention of this abilities bring sadness and rage to all white mage mains and if this ability is still in game by end walker. then say every healer or white mage start a riot get mad start refusing to heal. dont care if that made this ability make your white mage fart rainbows. if it named fluid aura its bad. lvl15 is where protect should be. but someone in squire enix thought protect was overpowered or bad game design must worser then fluid aura

I tell you what thou I better not see fluid aura II upcoming expansion. or never white mage again

Role Skills - Lets talk about bad game design

Rescue - this looks great on paper guys. but its junk . doesn't save anyone. in fact try save someone its so slow they still manage get hit by aoe becomes meme this point healers use this ability is flat out trolling don't get offending . its just bad

Repose - some reason healer single target sleep only really castable if you swiftcast cause of its massive cast time. its not aoe. frankly not helping you not helping anyones

seems like only good healer role skills you have is swiftcast, surecast. mana regenation ability rest of it garbage should not go on hotbar never used

this shows how much devs do not care

As a WHM main, I have to disagree.

I've been going though the story again on a new character from the beginning. Did the first 3 dungeons as a CNJ and didn't have any problems. They went by really quickly and in Copperbell the tank even did really big pulls, which I wasn't expecting at that level but it wasn't an issue in the least. I could only heal with cure 1 sure, but I was also doing dps the whole time.

Also, holy does more damage than you think. Packs die much faster with than without. The only thing I feel is wrong with WHM is the lack of an AOE dot. I miss aero 3.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

As a WHM main, I have to disagree.

I've been going though the story again on a new character from the beginning. Did the first 3 dungeons as a CNJ and didn't have any problems. They went by really quickly and in Copperbell the tank even did really big pulls, which I wasn't expecting at that level but it wasn't an issue in the least. I could only heal with cure 1 sure l, but I was also doing dps the whole time.

Also, holy does more damage than you think. Packs die much faster with than without. The only thing I feel is wrong with WHM is the lack of an AOE dot. I miss aero 3.

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I personal want see holy do more damage in upper 70-90s cause at that point barely see the monsters hp move at all. after 5-6 casts only take about 10-15% with other dps and tank hitting it was well. trash pulls seem take alot longer or tank pulls so big that you cant fully cast holy without them taking ogcd. or losing 60-80% of there health. at this point have put happy healers cap on and go brr. cause dps isn't opinion anymore

we also need talk about holy animation. how slow that is its bit junk upon casting holy white ball also takes a second before it explodes so actually casting time of holy 3.50 cause of the sheer junk of it

it changes when get higher there brief case where you get cure II realise hey dont need case cure 1 anymore. copperhell mines isnt really were that happens. it starts get 60 gets higher. compared to how holy used to be compared to it is now. sometimes even see there hp bars move. only times start seeing major dents . thing is what trying say is they no longer have be different buttons

cure should have trait that makes it cure 1 and cure II to cure III. simpler to your stone skill. this isn't really removing buttons. its just compressing it into one. depending what level you are. currently kinda sucks get to point were no reason to use cure 1 or free cure for that matter cause have so many ogcds . only really using cure II spam as a last resort when all other opinions are spent.

any white mage main knows holy has aoe jank! most aoe animations you do damage then then animation. holy is different. moment you finish casting you get this lag or 1.50 wait for it explosion before it actually does anything. on that note. look at it from that prospective then you can actually see why holy can be seen as bad all for holy animation change just so get deal its damage quicker so dont have wait for big white ball to explode

Cure 1 becomes Cure 2 I can agree with. Cure 2 becoming Cure 3 is a no. They have different uses plus Cure 3 costs a lot of mp.

Cure 2 can be used for basic heals when you don't have an ogcd or Lilly ready, but I like to use Cure 3 on stack mechanics since it's a close range aoe and everyone is grouped up. Which is the only time I ever use Cure 3 but it still has a use.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Cure 1 becomes Cure 2 I can agree with. Cure 2 becoming Cure 3 is a no. They have different uses plus Cure 3 costs a lot of mp.

Cure 2 can be used for basic heals when you don't have an ogcd or Lilly ready, but I like to use Cure 3 on stack mechanics since it's a close range aoe and everyone is grouped up. Which is the only time I ever use Cure 3 but it still has a use.

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reasons i have issue with cure III boils down to game designs and boss mechanics. there countless times where everyone takes damage or we have aoe that compresses everyone together. i began cast cure III and everyone scatters before cure III is off. and they miss that big bulky heal. don't lie say this never happen to you. if white mage you experience this at least once in your life cycle. stack mechanics was added because this was a problem. cure III had lot controversial issues. so thought they could patch it by adding mechanic. however did not patch it very well. have situations where still people scatter to quickly alot time risk was not worth the reward. only few boss fights in game i can name of head where cure III is dominate

think is cure III needs be buffed mostly ranged. think its way to punishing to white mages upon casting it. specially for its mana cost. not saying change what it does. if cure II changes to cure III cure III still be what it is now it probably cost 1000 have more radius its area of a effect and have higher potency and be more forgiving to the white-mage so not missing much there. cure III can be very unforgiving special if used wrong currently sometimes that cant be helped you only try cast it. and if team isn't it range it misses. you have relay other opinions to keep them alive. while trying keep up

Higher level this makes sense cause hard casting cure that often . unless tanks are complete trolling you refusing to use cooldowns upon big pulls not saying there wont be issues not saying that there wont be times where you wont be hardcasting same button to keep tank alive just major changes and adjustiments but still feel same as they do

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

think is cure III needs be buffed mostly ranged. think its way to punishing to white mages upon casting it. specially for its mana cost. not saying change what it does. if cure II changes to cure III cure III still be what it is now it probably cost 1000 have more radius its area of a effect and have higher potency and be more forgiving to the white-mage so not missing much there. cure III can be very unforgiving special if used wrong currently sometimes that cant be helped you only try cast it. and if team isn't it range it misses. you have relay other opinions to keep them alive. while trying keep up

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Cure III is a simple fix.

1) Change it to Medica 3. Trait Medica 1 into Medica 3. Give Medica 3 the range of Medica 1. Medica 1 is useless in higher levels.
2) This frees up Cure 3 to be the next big single target heal.
3) It also gives consistency. Medica line is aoe, Cure line is single target. Zero chance for confusion.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

reasons i have issue with cure III boils down to game designs and boss mechanics. there countless times where everyone takes damage or we have aoe that compresses everyone together. i began cast cure III and everyone scatters before cure III is off. and they miss that big bulky heal. don't lie say this never happen to you. if white mage you experience this at least once in your life cycle. stack mechanics was added because this was a problem. cure III had lot controversial issues. so thought they could patch it by adding mechanic. however did not patch it very well. have situations where still people scatter to quickly alot time risk was not worth the reward. only few boss fights in game i can name of head where cure III is dominate

think is cure III needs be buffed mostly ranged. think its way to punishing to white mages upon casting it. specially for its mana cost. not saying change what it does. if cure II changes to cure III cure III still be what it is now it probably cost 1000 have more radius its area of a effect and have higher potency and be more forgiving to the white-mage so not missing much there. cure III can be very unforgiving special if used wrong currently sometimes that cant be helped you only try cast it. and if team isn't it range it misses. you have relay other opinions to keep them alive. while trying keep up

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If you're using Cure III and people spread out immediately after, the immediate incoming damage after the mechanic is probably not lethal enough to warrant a Cure III and a Medica II would've sufficed as the total HoT potency would be greater than a Cure III.

A Cure III is mainly used for on-demand raw potency healing, where the next hit would kill your party unless you had that raw HP buffer because your other tools cannot heal that much in the next GCD. The best example here would be Min ILV Coils and Akh Morn's consecutive blasts. It's the same concept of why Cure II heals for 700 potency but is less MP efficient as Cure I (450 potency) vs Regen (1200 potency but only if you have 18 seconds to spare).

If you run into a situation where you do need Cure III to survive the next incoming blast but everyone spread apart and dies, you just have bad teammates. There's nothing wrong with the skill's intended purpose or range. Your teammates just need to play better...

If anything, I'd say Dancer's Curing Waltz needs a radius buff... 3 yalms is much smaller than 6 yalms.

As for Medica, it's in a weird place currently at 300 potency. If it was buffed, it would directly become a better Succor. It's in a very niche situation where you need 100 more potency upfront healing while having Medica II ticking in the background.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

1-49 whites mages have "no ogcds" and you will feel the effects of this when tanks pull wall to wall. only thing keepin them alive is one button spam for 49 levels. and only reason you cast "holy" is for it stun cause that damage it deal sucks its like hitting monsters wet noodle makes matters worse its 45 spell pbaoe and fire II hits harder

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Holy is still a useful skill and isn't weak just because it's 20 potency weaker than Art of War. Just because Fire II does more 4 potency more in Astral Fire III, doesn't mean it's stronger than Holy due to the MP cost associated with Fire II. It's not sustainable with its 3000 MP cost, and swapping over to Freeze is a potency loss (Astral Fire to Umbral Ice is a 0.7x penalty and vice versa), which stacks up overtime when you're spamming both skills in a rotation.

The thing Holy has compared to the other two healer's AOE is the 4 second stun. Even with diminishing returns, the stun component enables WHM to not have to hardcast another heal when the enemies aren't hitting the team, which saves up an extra GCD or 3 from casting another Cure II / allowing to let regen run its course. This translates to an additional 2-3 Holy casts(280 to 420 additional potency per target). That's a huge difference in the early game since enemies generally die much earlier than 1 minute, so it becomes a free invuln every pull. I'd say it only sucks midgame (61-70) since you start feeling the lack of weave slots and start having excess lilies doing nothing when you're playing well thanks to how effective Holy works as a mitigation tool. After you get the Afflatus Misery though, you can pretty much get DPS back via throwing away your excess lilies while running to the next pull, thereby making Holy indirectly giving us a huge DPS increase again.

Holy vs Art of War, as a SCH lover if I had a choice I'd prefer holy. Art of War has no flavour of its own and shouldn't have replaced Miasma II, but it seems the wanted to give SCH a Holy/Gravity equivalent, but with a lack luster animation and nothing that really offers a benefit. Gravity can be cast from afar and free-cast thanks to Lightspeed. Holy can stun. Art of War is cast from the same place as Holy and you're left dodging AoE's on trash pulls a WHM can stun and the end result doesn't feel that satisfactory. Sure Miasma II was satisfactory, but it was a part of a bigger mix of abilities and didn't need that big AoE mentality of WHM and AST because each had their own way.

That said, I do agree that Holy should do more damage. IMO: WHM should feel powerful, SCH should feel tactical and AST should feel technical. One thing that bugs me about the evolution of healers is that over time they just kept nerfing Holy for balance reasons, and then come ShB, SCH & AST get their rDPS aspects watered down and I think, "couldn't we have just kept Holy at a higher potency then and let SCH & AST have their thing?" Now they all feel unsubstantial.

Cure III does seem highly situational, but most of the time Medica & Medica II are your best bet over Cure III (And Plenary Indulgence on top). I think it probably get more raid usage when people stack together, but I think maybe oGCD's have made this less used?

Then 1-49 level climb is the old healing experience. I think it's still valuable to learn. 1-49 teaches you how to heal well when you're in a tight spot you might experience when your oGCD's are all on cooldown but without putting you in one. Levelling is the ideal place for the game to teach you how to play your job.

Rescue works, I've successfully rescued people and have been rescued. The problem is that some mechanics can be quick and you've got to be quick and you're not always going to be. I don't think it's a flaw in the ability, just the nature of encounter design meaning if you're wanting to use it you got to be quick to react.

Fluid Aura I agree isn't great, but some spells can be situational. Cure I I think should upgrade into Cure II after a certain level. On WHM I have Cure I removed from my crossbar, on AST I have Benefic I remove from it and Physick from my SCH's.

I think there's certainly things to complain about WHM and healers in general, but WHM is probably the most fluid of the healers and has a healing kit that makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

1-49 whites mages have "no ogcds" and you will feel the effects of this when tanks pull wall to wall. only thing keepin them alive is one button spam for 49 levels. and only reason you cast "holy" is for it stun cause that damage it deal sucks its like hitting monsters wet noodle makes matters worse its 45 spell pbaoe and fire II hits harder

"But hey healers not so post do damage. tell that to scholar who has art of war that bloody murders stuff"

"But you have assize and blood lily .. yah you get blood lily 76 and assize upper 50 when your queueing for leveling rolate or dailies you have joy to use it. if you forced into a dungeon that is below 50 it is torture to play whm"

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Even with no Ogcds, white mage is doing fine below 50. Low level dungeons are filled with locked rooms or mechanisms that require you to interact. Brayflox Longstop can do wall to wall pulls, but even SCH has hard time handling it due to not having aetherflow yet. However, Cure II spam can still handle it just fine. if not, maybe the problem lies on other roles such as tank or DPS. killing things too slow or DPS not having aoe skills yet still doing pulls for example.
Once Regen and Holy are acquired, WHM can handle pulls well. 3 healers have different
ways to handle pulls. I don't think WHM is as miserable as you stated it is.
Don't even bother mentioning Aurum Vale. Doing big pulls in that dungeon is basically suicide

That said, low level dungeon is never fun to any jobs. This is not an issue unique to white mages

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

I tell you what thou I better not see fluid aura II upcoming expansion. or never white mage again

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Sadly, such healer design are well received by bigger audience. Many angry healers in this forums claim ShB healers are so bad that healer numbers are few, but in fact, the number of healers, especially White Mages, grow exceedingly large.

Despite not having utility, not enough weaving window, less efficient than Diurnal Astro, it seems to me that the majority of player base just don't care.

One can even say ShB white mage is now at the best position it could ever be by just looking at the statistics

While I disagree on the issue WHM has in leveling experience, I do agree that WHM traits need some rework. Free cure fishing is stupid and not practical. Repose and Fluid Aura have their use but are way limited to certain situations

Rescue is one of the best skills in the entire game, what are you on???

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Originally Posted by FusionSamurai

Rescue is one of the best skills in the entire game, what are you on???

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agreed
my ONLY complaint is that i can only use it once per boss fight, and i need it at LEAST 3 times per boss fight. but its easily the best healer ability in large group content.
now if only we had the pushback of fluid again, to help organize mobs into the correct positions. (remove the dmg if u want, i just want the pushback)

I actually think of all the healers, WHM is currently sitting at the most decent spot as the "dumb and easy healer class". Every game needs one in my opinion.

That said, they did screw up big time with Fluid Aura ... I don't even understand why they nerfed it this way in the first place to be honest. Was it really menacing the "meta" in any way ? It was actually a useful skill when ARR came out and i'm upset they turned it into what it is now. It doesn't even deserve a slot on a hotbar ...
So yeah, i think for sure they should give back proper utility to WHM, along with a couple more DPS skills.

Also sorry but Rescue is absolutely god tier. Like Claire just said, if i had one complaint about it it would be its stupidly long CD.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Sadly, such healer design are well received by bigger audience. Many angry healers in this forums claim ShB healers are so bad that healer numbers are few, but in fact, the number of healers, especially White Mages, grow exceedingly large.

Despite not having utility, not enough weaving window, less efficient than Diurnal Astro, it seems to me that the majority of player base just don't care.

One can even say ShB white mage is now at the best position it could ever be by just looking at the statistics

While I disagree on the issue WHM has in leveling experience, I do agree that WHM traits need some rework. Free cure fishing is stupid and not practical. Repose and Fluid Aura have their use but are way limited to certain situations

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This gets a yes, but also a no from me.

In some regards, I do actually agree that WHM is in the best state it's ever been. It pulls it's weight at all levels of content and is mathematically somewhat competitive in Savage which is a rare treat at the end of an expansion. It's kit is straight forward, effective and punchy. It's not perfect but IMHO I feel that it flows better than SCH and AST and it's kind of strangely ironic that it has the most interesting DPS kit of all 3 healers even if it's not strictly the most potent in actual play.

However that's where my agreement ends.

IMHO WHM is popular because SCH is just hateful to play at the end game now, whereas AST feels like a mountain of unrewarding busywork. Even if it is a tweaked and reskinned level 34 ability with a firework dropped ontop, wings feels great. The Lily system isn't amazing mathematically, but dropping bombs on trash or on a boss during a buff window feels great. AST is just so much more subtle whilst SCH is left wondering where it's last fairy cast vanished off to.

And then of course there's the mildly important issue that healer kits exist in a game that doesn't come close to requiring any of it. The disconnect between the job design and content design is just getting bigger and bigger each expansion it seems.

IMHO Healers should be buffing/debuffing DPS with enough healing side effects to keep the group going. But instead SE seem to insist on pushing themselves further and further into a corner.

To be honest i think unfortunately this will be difficult to change, and not only because there's more people playing FFXIV recently, but also just because of the way boss mechanics are designed in general.

Every mechanic is always a gimmick that a certain role has to fill, for instance you have two tanks and the boss will execute a mechanic that requires a tank swap, so here you go.
After that there's a room-wide AoE, so healers get to press their button.
DPS just have to not stand in bad stuff and keep their rotations up.
Sometimes people will need to pair up to soak some damage, etc ...

There's no mechanic that requires you to bring a specific job in your party, and i'm sure most of us understand the logic behind it ; It's to avoid certain classes to become required and others made useless. This way, everyone can play whatever they want to play.

This leads to the standardisation of jobs that we know today ; everything pretty much plays alike (especially for tanks and healers).
So unless they start to have actual healer intensive mechanics in boss fights, that require us to plan around, and possibly bring a certain combination of jobs, regardless of which healer class we pick, our role will remain :
- Heal tank
- Heal after room-wide AoE
- Rez when people die

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This gets a yes, but also a no from me.

In some regards, I do actually agree that WHM is in the best state it's ever been. It pulls it's weight at all levels of content and is mathematically somewhat competitive in Savage which is a rare treat at the end of an expansion. It's kit is straight forward, effective and punchy. It's not perfect but IMHO I feel that it flows better than SCH and AST and it's kind of strangely ironic that it has the most interesting DPS kit of all 3 healers even if it's not strictly the most potent in actual play.

However that's where my agreement ends.

IMHO WHM is popular because SCH is just hateful to play at the end game now, whereas AST feels like a mountain of unrewarding busywork. Even if it is a tweaked and reskinned level 34 ability with a firework dropped ontop, wings feels great. The Lily system isn't amazing mathematically, but dropping bombs on trash or on a boss during a buff window feels great. AST is just so much more subtle whilst SCH is left wondering where it's last fairy cast vanished off to.

And then of course there's the mildly important issue that healer kits exist in a game that doesn't come close to requiring any of it. The disconnect between the job design and content design is just getting bigger and bigger each expansion it seems.

IMHO Healers should be buffing/debuffing DPS with enough healing side effects to keep the group going. But instead SE seem to insist on pushing themselves further and further into a corner.

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You always have a way of saying what I want to say, but better. It is a joy to read your posts, truly.

The only thing I want is an upgraded version of fluid aura, a water-themed utility attack like whirlpool that pulls enemies into a central spot for easier AOE control. It would be especially useful for pulls with lots of ranged mobs that the tank is having trouble LOS'ing into the rest of the pack.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

I personal want see holy do more damage in upper 70-90s cause at that point barely see the monsters hp move at all.

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Do bear in mind that WHM's in the 70-80's are already casually capable of topping mass-pull charts purely by lacing Holy spam with the odd MIS/ASS, and that the degradation of health bars is the absolute worst way of gauging the actual power of a spell, especially in terms of AoE skills, which are intentionally designed to hit less than ST-spells as a tradeoff for hitting more targets.

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reasons i have issue with cure III boils down to game designs and boss mechanics. there countless times where everyone takes damage or we have aoe that compresses everyone together. i began cast cure III and everyone scatters before cure III is off. and they miss that big bulky heal. don't lie say this never happen to you.

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It doesn't, because I don't cast it reactively. 99% of the time I'm under a stack-marker, my CureIII's go off at the same time as the animation. I've gotten so used to doing this that you will often avoid seeing the healthbars actually go down from the mechanic in question due to the heal being bang on target. In short, if your concern is people "running away", then you're casting it too late. Be more pre-emptive with it.

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we also need talk about holy animation. how slow that is its bit junk upon casting holy white ball also takes a second before it explodes so actually casting time of holy 3.50 cause of the sheer junk of it

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Snapshotting is a thing. There's a reason why you can cast Holy into a running pack and stun them despite seemingly being miles out of range. The animation has to play out, but the effects are earlier than presented. Similar applies in reverse seeing as you only have to avoid telegraphs, not actual enemy animations. In almost all cases, these are registered ahead of time, even if the playing field doesn't immediately represent it, and this in itself doesn't present any real problem with Holy (which is best used when the enemies are already in position, not while they're farting around).

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it changes when get higher there brief case where you get cure II realise hey dont need case cure 1 anymore.

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Do you know what's funny? Watching Asmongold's streams. Every time he heads to old synced content, his chat is always calling out healers using Cure I. You know why they're using it? Because you're not getting the same level of MP regen as you would with Assize, Thin Air, and Lucid at higher levels -- with Cure II spam being a good way to go OOMP. CureI can proc free CureII's, and is still a 450 potency on a shorter cast than CureII. Someone like me (when we have no oGCD's and no Holy in lower content such as Stone Vigil) will casually heal/damage mass-pulls simply by using a very simple CureI/Stone rota, which is enough to keep the tank alive while weaving in damage and also avail of the FreeCure system to save MP doing it. Other healers would assume that all they can do is spam CureII and the usual Regen/MedicaII's, which is a good way of going oom during wall-to-wall pulls where you might not get a lot of OOC downtime to regen enough MP for comfort between packs.

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cure should have trait that makes it cure 1 and cure II to cure III.

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Except it shouldn't, because all three Cure's do different things and serve completely different purposes, whereas all versions of STONE are basically higher potency versions of a singular baseline spell that does nothing different other than hit harder. Some people are already complaining about how WHM has so little to press as it is, yet you'd ask to have three healing options merged into a singular for no good reason.

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any white mage main knows holy has aoe jank! most aoe animations you do damage then then animation. holy is different. moment you finish casting you get this lag or 1.50 wait for it explosion before it actually does anything. on that note. look at it from that prospective then you can actually see why holy can be seen as bad all for holy animation change just so get deal its damage quicker so dont have wait for big white ball to explode

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On the contrary, I wager most WHM mains would disagree with your entire post and its shoddy reasoning.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Except it shouldn't, because all three Cure's do different things and serve completely different purposes, whereas all versions of STONE are basically higher potency versions of a singular baseline spell that does nothing different other than hit harder. Some people are already complaining about how WHM has so little to press as it is, yet you'd ask to have three healing options merged into a singular for no good reason.

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Except they don't.

Cure 1 is laughed at once Cure 2 becomes available so there's zero reason for Cure 1 to exist once Cure 2 does. It should absolutely be upgraded via trait.

As I've said before, Cure 3 should be a direct trait upgrade from Medica and rename it to Medica 3 keeping the larger aoe range. Medica 1 is useless in higher levels.. This frees up Cure 3 to be the next big single target heal. It also gives consistency. Medica line is AoE healing, Cure line is single target. Zero chance for confusion.

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Except they don't.

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Except they do, and it's an absolute fact that you can check in-game at your leisure, but I suspect you are replying to my comment at face value rather than as a reply to a different proposition. It doesn't change just because you go from primarily using one of them to primarily using the other later on, and it's certainly not even remotely comparable to the likes of StoneI>StoneII>StoneIII single-button trait progression, which is what the person I replied to is proposing for Cure.

People laughing at one after gaining the other doesn't change the fact that they do not act the same way at all and never have done -- so long as a faster-cast FreeCure and an AoE version exist, in a game that can have you flim-flam from older to newer content on a whim, where you absolutely would still use CureI, especially without your ream of oGCD's, Holy, or a full complement of MP-Regen tools in either dungeons or synced trials/raids. The problem most people have is the lack of real usage for CureI later in the game, which is true, but also a different discussion.

I'd rather Square actually improve on all three Cure buttons for engagement rather than merge them. If it keeps up, then what's next? Merge Regen, Medica, and MedicaII into "Regenica"? I mean, it's two AoE heals and two HoTs, so we may as well cull some more buttons seeing as they are similar and/or more commonly used later on.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Except they don't.

Cure 1 is laughed at once Cure 2 becomes available so there's zero reason for Cure 1 to exist once Cure 2 does. It should absolutely be upgraded via trait.

As I've said before, Cure 3 should be a direct trait upgrade from Medica and rename it to Medica 3 keeping the larger aoe range. Medica 1 is useless in higher levels.. This frees up Cure 3 to be the next big single target heal. It also gives consistency. Medica line is AoE healing, Cure line is single target. Zero chance for confusion.

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I can't believe I'm disagreeing with you Deceptus, but yea. Each Cure really does have its separate uses;
Cure 1 is maintenance healing on single target with added bonus of Free Cure.

Cure 2 is single target tempo heal, keep yourself ahead of the curve in terms of Damage to Hp ratio.

Cure 3 is Ahk Morn super spam/big successive damage hits solution.

If anything, Medica and Medica 2 have really been the out of place spells in terms of naming conventions.

If anything, the should have been named Cura and Curaja.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Cure 3 should be a direct trait upgrade from Medica and rename it to Medica 3 keeping the larger aoe range. Medica 1 is useless in higher levels.. This frees up Cure 3 to be the next big single target heal. It also gives consistency. Medica line is AoE healing, Cure line is single target. Zero chance for confusion.

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Medica really does seem strange now being eclipsed by Medica 2 in almost every way. Cure 3 is fine the way it is tho so I wouldn't want to merge it with Medica but I could still see upgrading Medica to Medica 3. I would increase the MP cost to 1300 and extend the range to 25 yalms giving WHM the largest radius aoe heal with the added benefit of increasing the duration of Medica 2's regen if already applied by 3 seconds. This way healers would naturally prioritize Medica 2 before spamming the slightly more expensive Medica 3 but with a real payoff for using it. It would be 400 potency minimum with the extended regen included. It would also mean a choice between Cure 3 for more upfront healing if the group is stacked well and Medica 3 to reach people further away for slightly less healing. Medica 2 could still be spammed if MP is an issue but for even less upfront healing.

Lets break this down a bit because I see a lot of your points being repeated and I'd like to rebut them.

This is by no means directed at you specifically, just the general idea of your post.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Cure 1 is maintenance healing on single target with added bonus of Free Cure.

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Freecure is a trap trait and most high end healers realize that. It doesn't proc reliably enough to fish for it with Cure 1. There are a multitude of spells / abilities (with short CD's) that are higher potency than Cure 1 that you can cast or use. If anything, Regen should be your maintenance healing GCD. It's 25% more MP than Cure 1 (400 for Cure1 and 500 for Regen) and does over 2.5 times the healing (450 pot vs 1200 pot.)

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Cure 2 is single target tempo heal, keep yourself ahead of the curve in terms of Damage to Hp ratio.

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Which is the precise reason that most high end healers say Cure 1 is pointless. If that situation, Cure 1 would be having you in a negative HP to damage ratio. Whereas you could just wait a few GCDs and bomb the tanks health with a beefy Cure 2.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Cure 3 is Ahk Morn super spam/big successive damage hits solution.

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Which is why my argument is Medica 1 is pointless when Cure 3 exists. Because if you're not using Cure 3 for burst AoE damage, you're using Medica 2 for a fire once and forget (instead of multiple Medica 1's)

The case can be made that leveling up and until lvl 50, Cure 1 might have a use (mostly because your gear is bad combined with the fact low level mana regen SUCKS) but after that? I haven't used it a single time because there are flat out better uses of a GCD.

Because that's one of the healer complaints. That damage isn't enough to warrant Cure 1 being cast repeatedly. It's either small enough mob damage that a Regen can handle it, or large enough that it needs a Cure 2 and/or an OGCD.

Tanks / DPS don't have to be at 100% HP at all times and due to that, Cure 1 as a maintenance heal is pointless.

Look, I'm not saying I'm 100% right on this or I'm the best healer there is. I've just been around this game a long time (since day 1 of 2.0) and have seen a thing or two and how the role has changed over the years.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Lets break this down a bit because I see a lot of your points being repeated and I'd like to rebut them.



Freecure is a trap trait and most high end healers realize that. It doesn't proc reliably enough to fish for it with Cure 1. There are a multitude of spells / abilities (with short CD's) that are higher potency than Cure 1 that you can cast or use. If anything, Regen should be your maintenance healing GCD. It's 20% more MP than Cure 1 (400 for Cure1 and 500 for Regen) and does over 2.5 times the healing (450 pot vs 1200 pot.)



Which is the precise reason that most high end healers say Cure 1 is pointless. If that situation, Cure 1 would be having you in a negative HP to damage ratio. Whereas you could just wait a few GCDs and bomb the tanks health with a beefy Cure 2.



Which is why my argument is Medica 1 is pointless when Cure 3 exists. Because if you're not using Cure 3 for burst AoE damage, you're using Medica 2 for a fire once and forget (instead of multiple Medica 1's)

The case can be made that leveling up and until lvl 50, Cure 1 might have a use but after that? I haven't used it a single time because there are flat out better uses of a GCD.

Because that's one of the healer complaints. That damage isn't enough to warrant Cure 1 being cast repeatedly. It's either small enough mob damage that a Regen can handle it, or large enough that it needs a Cure 2 and/or an OGCD.

Tanks / DPS don't have to be at 100% HP at all times and due to that, Cure 1 as a maintenance heal is pointless.

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I mean, I will agree with you on that. The Cure's all do separately have their uses, whether or not they are used all the time is the real point. I was merely stating that they are useful, and pointing out the flaw with the naming conventions.

I don't disagree with the reasons you've stated now, more that even recognizing that they are not used in high level play, they still have their uses in the most commonly run content, Dungeons.

I'm one of those people that like efficiency, if a beefy tank buster is coming and the Tank is at 85% health, I will use Cure 1, cause it will top him/her. Free Cure proc after that is gravy IF I decide to use it.

Apologies if my disagreement was misleading. I do very much respect your input and debates.

The real flaw with the naming conventions is that english is the only client that uses the 1, 2, 3 when all other clients use the traditional names of cure, cura, curaga etc

Cure 1 I have found has a very small niche past 50: identifying bad healers.

repose however DOES have some slight use being one of the last pieces of crowd control we have. Those being deep dungeons (it was invaluable on floors 80-100 on mine and my bonding parter's clear, especially when we tripped a luring trap) and more relevantly, delubrum reginae savage where sleeping the golems casting demolish is crucial as its one of two ways to stop them casting demolish if they arent burned down after 3 holies

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Cure 1 I have found has a very small niche past 50: identifying bad healers.

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I've used it once or twice after 50. If you're in Ultimate, you're out of oGCDs, and you really need to bump a straggler's HP a bit before a nasty party-wide hit and you need to do it faster than the 2.5 seconds a Cure 2 would hit them in, that's the only spot I've seen its use.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I've used it once or twice after 50. If you're in Ultimate, you're out of oGCDs, and you really need to bump a straggler's HP a bit before a nasty party-wide hit and you need to do it faster than the 2.5 seconds a Cure 2 would hit them in, that's the only spot I've seen its use.

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Personally, it's all Instant oGCD equivalent -> Shield Equivalent for me (I really don't play Scholar anymore, I just cant). That literally gets me through most double or singles; such amazing healing in this game btw /sarcasm. Sometimes, and I mean SOMETIMES, I cast Medica 2, just to shake things up.