10k heal on a 60 second cooldown. Really Devs?

After getting my dancer to max item level. Granted not BiS but still wouldn’t make a lick of difference. Item level 530, curing waltz heals for only 10k non Crit on a 60 second cooldown is ridiculous. Why do we even have it? You not always gonna be near your dance partner for the double affect. You can’t survive an aoe with that. What were the devs thinking? Hopefully we get another charge at least or buff the potency higher to match the long cooldown.

Did you perhaps expected a cure III?

DNC is a DPS, not a healer or a Blue mage. Healing abilities on other role than Healers are meant to complete the survivability of the party, not replace it.
If it could heal half the health of your party it would be too strong.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Did you perhaps expected a cure III?

DNC is a DPS, not a healer or a Blue mage. Healing abilities on other role than Healers are meant to complete the survivability of the party, not replace it.
If it could heal half the health of your party it would be too strong.

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I disagree. A strong heal wouldn't impact anything other than fun anyway. I love supporting my healers during dungeons. Especially with an inexperienced group, where dancers feel like sad clowns from my limited experience.

Expecting to heal enough to survive an AoE on a DPS, really player?

Healing for potentially 600 Cure Potency on the whole party as an oGCD is already very strong for a DPS healing skill

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Did you perhaps expected a cure III?

DNC is a DPS, not a healer or a Blue mage. Healing abilities on other role than Healers are meant to complete the survivability of the party, not replace it.
If it could heal half the health of your party it would be too strong.

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The whole surviveability is pretty much a joke, OP definately has a point. Any good healer doesn´t need any party support next to some badass raid aoes where you die without medigation. We need more tools again and content which force the players to use it. The whole gameplay is broken af for the lie of balancing we don´t even need.

FFXI DNC can heal using TP
Curing waltz 1,2,3,4,5
Divine Waltz 1,2 ( AoE heals)
And Healing Waltz ( esuna)

To be honest, dancer is what got me into FFXI and i love the job there, A DD who can not only dps and debuff, but can heal if needed

My point im trying to get that it of probably a left over from FFXI to make it have something but...ffxiv is too "Holy Trinity" for it to really to have a constant, good heal

Just like i wish FFXIV red mage had more healing abilities, sadly this game ( ffxiv) is heavily balance in mind, so jobs can't really do anything unique without being unbalance even the slightest.

I feel you op

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Originally Posted by Hoehenflug

I disagree. A strong heal wouldn't impact anything other than fun anyway. I love supporting my healers during dungeons. Especially with an inexperienced group, where dancers feel like sad clowns from my limited experience.

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A strong heal on just one DPS would absolutely impact the balance of the game, as that one job would have so much more utility than others. Raids wouldn't accept any other Ranged because of that.

There have already been some 'no healer' Savage clears, not to mention the recent solo heal clear of TEA.
E4S for was cleared (when it was current content!) with a Paladin, Warrior, Dancer and 5 Summoners.
That shouldn't really be possible, and it completely invalidates the healer role. So when that's posible as it is, with the already limited healing capabilities of those DPS classes... why on earth would you expect more?

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

A strong heal on just one DPS would absolutely impact the balance of the game, as that one job would have so much more utility than others. Raids wouldn't accept any other Ranged because of that.

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Imagine we would have more and better mechanics which even force DPS too survive on its own, more than just one boss at once and ofcourse any jobs with more raid or selfish utilities to use. But no, we´ve to avoid AOE´s and if just one single person fails, we gonna wipe.

Balancing doesn´t mean fun or having an impact on the gameplay. Bard for example has a cleanse and how many fights in the past spreaded debuffs? E8s... and how many Bards got prefered there? None. (And DNC is way too common with SAM anyway, but because of unbalanced DPS and not utility.)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There have already been some 'no healer' Savage clears, not to mention the recent solo heal clear of TEA.
E4S for was cleared (when it was current content!) with a Paladin, Warrior, Dancer and 5 Summoners.
That shouldn't really be possible, and it completely invalidates the healer role. So when that's posible as it is, with the already limited healing capabilities of those DPS classes... why on earth would you expect more?

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It just shows, that a lot of stuff is going wrong with the casualization of the game and its raid design.

Having a dps get a "cure 3" even on a 60s cooldown kinda kills the small amount of gameplay a healer has at this point. It might be nice in pug but in a static it means even more broil spam.

Dancer is BY FAR the most mobile job in the game. If you're not near your dance partner when you want to use your curing waltz, that's on you. Only real exception is if you're having to handle a savage raid mechanic, in which case the healers on your team would be aware of this and help you keep your health up without the need for curing waltz.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Did you perhaps expected a cure III?

DNC is a DPS, not a healer or a Blue mage. Healing abilities on other role than Healers are meant to complete the survivability of the party, not replace it.
If it could heal half the health of your party it would be too strong.

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I do not expect a cure III. Your argument is invalid because Paladin has a heal and so does red mage and they are a tank and dps. Dancer is a dps/buffer job. I am not even asking for a spam heal but just a bit more powerful heal to equate the long cooldown. If healers die which they do often and I am doing well you think I should just die because they did? I am not even talking about savage and tea. Just regular raids like the nier ones. Both healers die and other alliance healers/rezzers are maybe a little to busy to help rez my healers. You saying I need to just die to an aoe because my self heal is way to weak. Come on, use your head.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

FFXI DNC can heal using TP
Curing waltz 1,2,3,4,5
Divine Waltz 1,2 ( AoE heals)
And Healing Waltz ( esuna)

To be honest, dancer is what got me into FFXI and i love the job there, A DD who can not only dps and debuff, but can heal if needed

My point im trying to get that it of probably a left over from FFXI to make it have something but...ffxiv is too "Holy Trinity" for it to really to have a constant, good heal

Just like i wish FFXIV red mage had more healing abilities, sadly this game ( ffxiv) is heavily balance in mind, so jobs can't really do anything unique without being unbalance even the slightest.

I feel you op

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Thank you. Some of these people just don't get it. I'm not even asking for a spam heal. Just a bit stronger heal to accommodate the long cd it's on. 10k is very bad.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

A strong heal on just one DPS would absolutely impact the balance of the game, as that one job would have so much more utility than others. Raids wouldn't accept any other Ranged because of that.

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Your comment makes no sense at all. Dancer doesn't have the damage a machinist does nor aoe song 100% uptime utility as a bard. A stronger heal will not impact the ranged role. Come on now lol.

Entire group stacked up for aoe heals, curing waltz from both the dancer and their partner crits healing the entire group for 40k, my assize comes off cooldown, extra 40k healing. Oh look that healed the entirety of a raidwide lemme just glare for another 2 minutes before the next stack raidwide.

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Originally Posted by Eclipse12187

Entire group stacked up for aoe heals, curing waltz from both the dancer and their partner crits healing the entire group for 40k, my assize comes off cooldown, extra 40k healing. Oh look that healed the entirety of a raidwide lemme just glare for another 2 minutes before the next stack raidwide.

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So casting an extra GCD heal to glare the next 1min and 58s is better imo?

Waltz is a perfectly fine ability. It's a supplemental heal that rewards good timing (using it after a stack or shared mechanic) and/or group coordination. 10k might sound small, but when doubled with your dance partner it's basically a free Indom or Assize worth and even more healing than Rapture or Medica. Unlike Clemency or Vercure, Waltz costs no resources or even a GCD. Good DNC's in Savage can get anywhere from 300k to over half a million total raid healing from Waltz over a fight. It's not the devs fault if you aren't using it right.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

E4S for was cleared (when it was current content!) with a Paladin, Warrior, Dancer and 5 Summoners.
That shouldn't really be possible, and it completely invalidates the healer role

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This is a huge exaggeration. A tiny, tiny handful of amazing players (less than 0.1%) who know a fight perfectly and managed to beat it without a healer does not "completely invalidate" the healer role. For nearly the entire playerbase, the current heals that dps have don't affect the game in the slightest and are perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

So casting an extra GCD heal to glare the next 1min and 58s is better imo?

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All I’m saying is that the heal from it is significant as it is and does not need to be buffed. It’s a hell of a lot more potent than schs 10 gauge aoe heal. Healer gameplay has its own set of issues and buffing curing waltz to satisfy someone’s support dps fantasy makes my job more glare presses. Make it more potent and I wouldn’t even need to use that aoe. all raid damage is predictable once you’ve done the fights enough, the only time a fight is “engaging” to me as a healer is when I’m learning it or teaching new players as they’ll give me more opportunities to well… heal.

I would gladly replace Hyoton—a completely useless ability—with a heal.

Even better, replace it with a rez.

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Originally Posted by Hoehenflug

I disagree. A strong heal wouldn't impact anything other than fun anyway. I love supporting my healers during dungeons. Especially with an inexperienced group, where dancers feel like sad clowns from my limited experience.

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I disagree, we all have roles to play and DPS isnt a healer nor should i substitute one if it did do as much as cure III it would be on a even longer cd 90/120/180 and than u start to wonder whats the point. its fine as is people just want thier job to do everything

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I do not expect a cure III. Your argument is invalid because Paladin has a heal and so does red mage and they are a tank and dps. Dancer is a dps/buffer job. I am not even asking for a spam heal but just a bit more powerful heal to equate the long cooldown. If healers die which they do often and I am doing well you think I should just die because they did? I am not even talking about savage and tea. Just regular raids like the nier ones. Both healers die and other alliance healers/rezzers are maybe a little to busy to help rez my healers. You saying I need to just die to an aoe because my self heal is way to weak. Come on, use your head.

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Yes exactly. All your healers died so you're gonna die to the next AoE. That's normal. You died to the AoE because healers weren't healing you which is because they died.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Your comment makes no sense at all. Dancer doesn't have the damage a machinist does nor aoe song 100% uptime utility as a bard. A stronger heal will not impact the ranged role. Come on now lol.

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MCH and BRD also don't have
- 100% uptime one party member buff
- Burst Crit and DH buff
- major party buff

And it's already the most popular choice among the three. And now you're saying it has to be able to heal enough to withstand an AoE, without having to stack with your dance partner, every 60 seconds. Wow.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I do not expect a cure III. Your argument is invalid because Paladin has a heal and so does red mage and they are a tank and dps. Dancer is a dps/buffer job. I am not even asking for a spam heal but just a bit more powerful heal to equate the long cooldown. If healers die which they do often and I am doing well you think I should just die because they did? I am not even talking about savage and tea. Just regular raids like the nier ones. Both healers die and other alliance healers/rezzers are maybe a little to busy to help rez my healers. You saying I need to just die to an aoe because my self heal is way to weak. Come on, use your head.

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Vercure and Clemency come at a GCD cost
PLD is a huge MP cost and Red mage needs to use it twice to be comparable to healers so there is the balance
now Curing waltz is an ogcd and essentially has two Cast at once its handy but not over powered or centralizing where DNC is required so healers can DPS more
60 seconds isn't that long of a cool down aswell
and it seems you are talking about alliance raids
where it doesn't even matter you die you die thats it who cares its a 24 man

Why not? It'll continue the pattern of nerfing healer damage engagement and potency ever downward, while also making their healing capabilities more and more worthless to the group as time marches forward. Next expansion healers can be limited jobs.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

This is a huge exaggeration. A tiny, tiny handful of amazing players (less than 0.1%) who know a fight perfectly and managed to beat it without a healer does not "completely invalidate" the healer role. For nearly the entire playerbase, the current heals that dps have don't affect the game in the slightest and are perfectly fine.

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And a no healz E4S isnt even the craziest thing ive heard of. I saw a group of 8 tanks clear UCoB. So by Seraphor's logic not only is healer completely invalidated, so is DPS. Tanks are all that matter. Nevermind that most of the players probly couldnt clear phase 1 under those circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Eclipse12187

all raid damage is predictable once you’ve done the fights enough

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Actually the most stuff is predictable since it just repeats from fight to fight. AOE / TB -> mechanic -> AOE/TB -> mechanic -> etc.
There are like 0 random factors when we talk about damage income, unless someone missplays hard. So yeah.... with that knowledge, pretty much every utility on DPS classes is there to be there, but noone knows why. 99,9% of all content doesn´t even need medigation. A WHM or AST hot will do enough until the next AOE appears. Maybe E12s endphase is the only current mechanic, which force a bit more healing and medigation.

So overall it wouldn´t even make that big difference if those tools get buffed or thrown in the bin. One or another might be helpful to survive one more AOE when a healer died, but that´s it. All the stuff on DPS classes don´t have that big impact on the gameplay and this SHOULD change. More utility and better survive-abilities are highly welcome, stronger content of course too. (We don´t even need to argue about balancing at this point. This is no PvP game where you can use all your skills. And in PvE it´s all about damage.)

If DNC is getting an oGCD C3 on a 60s timer i want second wind with a potency of a C2 and a self-rez on a 60s cooldown for us DRG mains so i can just rez every time i get animation locked or backflip off the arena

Ah yes. A stronger Curing Waltz, so that I every regen or heal I do as a healer are overwritted by a panicked DNC in most content.
Totally what we want.

Curing Waltz is fine. It's a medica equivalent additional heal great to have but it's not meant to do healers stuff.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It just shows, that a lot of stuff is going wrong with the casualization of the game and its raid design.

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This isn't a new thing. Summoners used to be able to tank with Titan Egi. You could do Ramuh EX without a tank.
The game as a whole is getting progressively more balanced and removing more cheese strats like this, it's not a downhill trend.

Ignore it, just a leftover ability from when it was designed as a healer and nobody can convince me otherwise when you take the skill effects into count.

I think it’d be cool if Curing Waltz was a GCD. Not that I think it should become one, since we really don’t need that level of healing, but it’d be cool.

I like the way Curing Waltz currently works because it encourages using it to support others rather than as a self-heal. If you try to use it solely on yourself it’s not much help at all. But if you use it in combination with the second aoe from dance partner, suddenly it becomes a much more useful heal. It’s a good way to leverage the extra mobility Dancer has as well, since repositioning is necessary to get the most out of it. Higher potency on the heal would mean they’d have to either increase the cooldown by quite a bit, or remove the second aoe from dance partner, which would make it much less interesting to use in my opinion

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This isn't a new thing. Summoners used to be able to tank with Titan Egi. You could do Ramuh EX without a tank.
The game as a whole is getting progressively more balanced and removing more cheese strats like this, it's not a downhill trend.

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Of course it´s not a new thing, but it´s getting downhill gameplay wise. Classes get more and more cutted, we´ve no skilltrees or something, nothing to experiment with, nothing which could make a change when 2-3 ppl are dead or the last fool isn´t able to do 1 mechanic properly, which last in a wipe every time.

DPS have no chance for a turn-around, unless you play rezzmage. Tanks on the other hand are fully braindead. Tanking these days means to press invul when a TB comes, nothing more. Healers have to use some buttons every 30s to heal raidwides. This "balancing" is lame and straight up boring. The content is not even difficult to play nor the classes are.

I would highly prefer any cheese strats, maybe here and there a meta class, customization and a well better raid-design to let those non-existend utilities shine. It´s way more fun and engaging than what we have now. Playing 123 and moving from A to B isn´t a good game design by all means. Having the same "useless" tools on any subclasses isn´t a big deal too. We don´t need a bunch of subclasses who play similar in their category just with different animations.
It just shows how uninspired and lazy SE is. They don´t want to put effort into balancing or a better game design anymore. "Fast and easy", that´s their choice...

Games should force the player to grow and shouldn´t get dumb´d down until grammy with her 5y old grandson is able to clear everything too. Give all DPS better and unique utilities and make the content harder with debuffs, adds, 1-4 bosses at once and DPS checks. This would be a big thing.

As long as RDM's cure continues to be nothing more than dualcast-bait then I don't see why dancer of all people should get stronger heals.

Doesn't the dancer already have the lowest dps so don't see why it need a cd for healing. If I remember right in ffxi you could use a dancer as a main healer in it.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Doesn't the dancer already have the lowest dps so don't see why it need a cd for healing. If I remember right in ffxi you could use a dancer as a main healer in it.

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No, DNC comfortably outshines both BRD and MCH in 8-man content at higher levels in terms of rDPS. Suggesting it should also have more healing capabilities than what it already has is foolish to say the least.

OP, why are you furious about a 60s cd heal that restores ~15% of yours' and your teammates' HP, as long as you stack with your partner?

WAR e.g. has a 15% shield every 90s for the whole party, PLD only 10% if they are getting healed by spells.

A simple "stack on me" heal that outshines tanks party shielding capability is nothing to sneeze at. If that is not enough, you can even buff every other Waltz with Improvisation. Additionally, DNC beats their role counterparts in terms of rDPS. What more do you want?

Get ready for that numbers squish that's coming for Endwalker; then that number will be really low. :P

I've been looking forward to this for a long time now, because I feel like as the numbers have gotten higher, it tends to distract folk from the important stuff.

Lashing out protective Sambas with an extra Healing cherry on top (which spreads from both you and your partner for a good chunk) -- not to mention Standard, Technical, and Devilment -- as one of (if not THE) most mobile classes in the game right now (not to mention other perks), and people are asking for the heal to be bigger?