My two requests for PLD in Endwalker

1. Make Clemancy an OGCD that costs 50 Oath gauge. Lower potency as needed.

2. Give PLD a slow cast raise that can be cast in battle. Seeing as they do not have Swiftcast, it should remain a slow cast.

PLDs have classically been known for their minor white magic utility in older FFs such as FF1, FF3 (Mystic Knights in NES, Knights in later versions), and FF4. In particular, having access to actually usable heals and a raise is thematic to the job and missing for PLDs currently.

What do you think?

I think, unfortunately, it might be a little close to release for them to consider adding anything.
They're probably working on balancing raids right now.

As for my takes on the ideas: I'm not sure #1 is a good idea... considering how damage centric this game is if you give us the option to use our meter for a defensive move OR an offensive move, it's tough to find situations where the defensive move is the "right pick." That's why DRK's MP defensive move has to at least be DPS neutral. That's also why the took energy drain away from SCH to try and force healers to use their resources to heal instead of squeeze in more DPS.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I think, unfortunately, it might be a little close to release for them to consider adding anything.
They're probably working on balancing raids right now.

As for my takes on the ideas: I'm not sure #1 is a good idea... considering how damage centric this game is if you give us the option to use our meter for a defensive move OR an offensive move, it's tough to find situations where the defensive move is the "right pick." That's why DRK's MP defensive move has to at least be DPS neutral. That's also why the took energy drain away from SCH to try and force healers to use their resources to heal instead of squeeze in more DPS.

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Well, look at how much WAR changed in 4.3 with the Byakko patch. Even if this kind of change can't be done before the release of EW, maybe it could happen eventually. I just want to plant the seed.

While having the Oath gauge be used somehow offensively sounds like a good idea, I also think keeping it as a strictly utility/defensive tool is good too because it does fit thematically for PLD. I don't think SE has released any information on how it would be used offensively, have they? The problem with Clemancy now is exactly as you described: PLDs have to use every GCD and all MP towards offensive purposes, leaving no room to use it or face a massive DPS loss. Enabling Clemancy as an OGCD would resolve, and currently, PLDs are the only tank that cannot self heal without losing DPS.

I agree with moving Clemency to the Oath bar. 50 gauge is probably too much, as it doesn't have the same defensive value as Sheltron. I would set it at 20. As for the oGCD status, I'd just set it so that you gain a swiftcast proc on a successful block every 20-30 seconds. If it's an emergency you can chain cast it, but otherwise you should get healing instant casts that you can weave in every so often. I think that's reasonable.

Giving raise abilities to tanks should be avoided at all costs. There are already way too many jobs with easy raise potential. As it is, I very much want to see a hard cap be placed on the number of battle raises that can be used per team per fight, especially in harder difficulty settings. 3 carts and you're out. I wouldn't mind seeing PLD have an out of combat raise for flavor, but people in this game hate flavor abilities with a passion and would inevitably start pushing boundaries.
5 months later: "My raise ability is only usable outside of combat and is a waste of hotbar space, please make this a combat raise."
10 months later: "My slow cast combat raise is a dps loss, please make it instant cast."
15 months later: "Players die after my instant cast combat raise with unlimited uses because they raise during a mechanic, please make it equivalent to Healer LB3."
Best to kill this idea with fire.

Remember when PLD had out of combat Raise from cross class skills? Pepperidge Farm remembahs...

That said, moving Clemency to the Oath Gauge would be insane without a potency reduction, especially at 20 gauge. The HP it restores at 1200 potency/600 on self, 1200 on target is far more valuable than increasing block rate to 100% unless you absolutely need those blocks.

Like if you did that, PLDs would default to being main tank, since they could just Cure II x 2 themselves as an oGCD every 4 auto attacks... roughly every 9 seconds. Ludicrous. Hell, you could roll double PLD comp, and just have the PLDs take care of all tank damage, letting the healers comfortably settle all raidwides and raidwides only. Phew. Not a good idea. With a higher oath cost though, it'd be less efficient at healing than it currently is, though far more useable in all situations without being broken.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

1. Make Clemancy an OGCD that costs 50 Oath gauge. Lower potency as needed.

2. Give PLD a slow cast raise that can be cast in battle. Seeing as they do not have Swiftcast, it should remain a slow cast.

PLDs have classically been known for their minor white magic utility in older FFs such as FF1, FF3 (Mystic Knights in NES, Knights in later versions), and FF4. In particular, having access to actually usable heals and a raise is thematic to the job and missing for PLDs currently.

What do you think?

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Making Clemency and ogcd will make into an offensive cd. The only reason why Clemency is a defensive utility is because you have to give up a gcd, preferably in requiescat window, to cast a heal instead of a weaponskill and it also breaks combos. So there is some through put into it but the heals you get are very strong, comparable to a WAR using aoes and NF. It just becomes a gauge dump and will almost always be picked over shelltron, similar to how WAR works because a tank that can keep itself alive longer without heals means healers can keep dpsing or raising a dead member without worry. Clemency is fine as is. Maybe needs a nerf but imo giving up a gcd for a Clemency that heals 50% of your HP is worth it imo.

PLD or any tanks getting a raise outside of "eureka" content will never happen. PLD had a raise as a cc from CNJ back in the day (including protect and stoneskin) but it was used outside of battle and made the PLD feel like a "holy knight" before clemency was added but regardless, it was a niche option the open world but even I only used it a few times. Mainly when odin spawns and helped the healers raise people around me. Putting Lost Sacrifice as a tank role skill might make things interesting as a tank battle raise but then they would have to balance all content around that and I doubt they would want to put that much work into when Eureka and Bozja already gives you the option to make tanks into healers.

If anything needs to be change, is that Cover needs to be turned into a tank role because the potential for it being used to great effect is unlimited. Imagine healers getting targeted with a stack maker and the tanks just cover them and invul thus negating any dps missing positionals or leaving leylines, etc from having to stack.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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That's why it shouldn't be oGCD by default. You can use it as an oGCD on a block proc, but that's time gated, the same way that Equilibrium is. If you want to cast it on demand, it has a cast time cost, which is a major deterrent in itself. You can't even get the healers to hardcast Cure 2, let alone a tank. Even now, you can chain cast Clemency if you really want, but it's going to cost you time and dps.

It's also going to reduce your access to other utility moves that you may want to use. One of the weaknesses of the gauge system is that there's really no trade-offs attached. There needs to be more gauge costing abilities to keep the system interesting.

no raise
if anything RDM and SMN should not be allowed to be used in combat

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Making Clemency and ogcd will make into an offensive cd. The only reason why Clemency is a defensive utility is because you have to give up a gcd, preferably in requiescat window, to cast a heal instead of a weaponskill and it also breaks combos. So there is some through put into it but the heals you get are very strong, comparable to a WAR using aoes and NF. It just becomes a gauge dump and will almost always be picked over shelltron, similar to how WAR works because a tank that can keep itself alive longer without heals means healers can keep dpsing or raising a dead member without worry. Clemency is fine as is. Maybe needs a nerf but imo giving up a gcd for a Clemency that heals 50% of your HP is worth it imo.

PLD or any tanks getting a raise outside of "eureka" content will never happen. PLD had a raise as a cc from CNJ back in the day (including protect and stoneskin) but it was used outside of battle and made the PLD feel like a "holy knight" before clemency was added but regardless, it was a niche option the open world but even I only used it a few times. Mainly when odin spawns and helped the healers raise people around me. Putting Lost Sacrifice as a tank role skill might make things interesting as a tank battle raise but then they would have to balance all content around that and I doubt they would want to put that much work into when Eureka and Bozja already gives you the option to make tanks into healers.

If anything needs to be change, is that Cover needs to be turned into a tank role because the potential for it being used to great effect is unlimited. Imagine healers getting targeted with a stack maker and the tanks just cover them and invul thus negating any dps missing positionals or leaving leylines, etc from having to stack.

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Cover doesn't work like that. If you use Hallowed Ground and then Cover someone, you take the damage relative to whatever mitigation they had at the time minus your defense. You won't take damage from damage that hits you directly, but damage from a covered person circumvents immunity making it a non-option.

Of course, in the past, at least in Extreme content, tanks have had enough raw HP that they can eat group stacks by themselves. Might not hold after the stat squish, but if you threw an Intervention on the Healer, and the tank was shielded, they may be able to cover the group stack, eat it solo, and still live.

Personally what I want the most for PLD is for Shield Swap to come back and replace Shield Bash.

Regarding white magic, I am already glad they started adding damaging magic since Stormblood to be fair.

I agree that something needs to be done for Clemency. Making it oGCD is part of the solution probably, but not the shield oath.
You most likely will still never use it and would keep shielding instead. And it would not be as good for solo play either.

Honestly, I think that the Paladin job gauge is one of the most lackluster of all the job gauges.
Just add one more resource to it that would be dedicated to healing abilities or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I agree that something needs to be done for Clemency. Making it oGCD is part of the solution probably, but not the shield oath.
You most likely will still never use it and would keep shielding instead. And it would not be as good for solo play either.

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It doesn't need to be ogcd to be generally useful; it jut needs to be mostly DpS neutral rather than a 525/375 potency loss each cast. Give Clemency a trait that makes it give a 30s buff that increases the potency of the next Holy Spirit/Holy Circle by 350/250 potency and you will see it used more.

Paladin already has enough utility as it is, it does not need a raise, nor do I want to see the raise tax be thrown onto Paladin, let alone have people use that as an excuse to lower Paladin's overall damage output. "Paladin has a raise so should do less damage than all the other tanks" for a situation that may or may not occur, even though mp and GCDs lost isn't enough of a cost. Granted SMN and RDM have finally started moving away from this design choice thankfully, much of that mindset still is here.

As for Clemency, in normal content, I find it is extremely rare that I ever have a need for it, much the same in Savage and Ultimates, with the exception of prog. Sure, there are times when healers go down and you might have to use it. Overall Clemency is very situational in nature, great prog tool, great solo play tool, terrible normal play skill.

But adding Clemency to oGCD will very much remove it's ability to spam, if oath gauge is the cost, if mp is still a cost a potency nerf would be required, and lastly as an oGCD it would be moved into the ability category instead of a spell so would not gain any effect from Requiescat.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Paladin already has enough utility as it is, it does not need a raise, nor do I want to see the raise tax be thrown onto Paladin, let alone have people use that as an excuse to lower Paladin's overall damage output. "Paladin has a raise so should do less damage than all the other tanks" for a situation that may or may not occur, even though mp and GCDs lost isn't enough of a cost. Granted SMN and RDM have finally started moving away from this design choice thankfully, much of that mindset still is here.

As for Clemency, in normal content, I find it is extremely rare that I ever have a need for it, much the same in Savage and Ultimates, with the exception of prog. Sure, there are times when healers go down and you might have to use it. Overall Clemency is very situational in nature, great prog tool, great solo play tool, terrible normal play skill.

But adding Clemency to oGCD will very much remove it's ability to spam, if oath gauge is the cost, if mp is still a cost a potency nerf would be required, and lastly as an oGCD it would be moved into the ability category instead of a spell so would not gain any effect from Requiescat.

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I think PLD should have the lowest damage as utility should be traded for damage. Thematically speaking, PLD should have most utility and should be lowest DPS of the four tanks. This is good, healthy, proper game design in my opinion. RDM and SMN should have lower DPS than BLM since BLM offers no utility. Having a Raise would be massive utility when pugging, and save a lot of wipes.

Clemancy is never used because it's GCD and MP, making it a massive DPS loss. Adding it to Oath Gauge, no MP cost and OGCD means it's actually usable without lowering DPS, and giving you a fourth tool to use Oath Gauge on: Sheltron, Intervene, Cover, or Clemancy. I think this would make PLD a lot more enjoyable and better for utility. It shouldn't be affected by Requiscat as that should be for DPS rotation only, not utility, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I think PLD should have the lowest damage as utility should be traded for damage. Thematically speaking, PLD should have most utility and should be lowest DPS of the four tanks. This is good, healthy, proper game design in my opinion. RDM and SMN should have lower DPS than BLM since BLM offers no utility. Having a Raise would be massive utility when pugging, and save a lot of wipes.

Clemancy is never used because it's GCD and MP, making it a massive DPS loss. Adding it to Oath Gauge, no MP cost and OGCD means it's actually usable without lowering DPS, and giving you a fourth tool to use Oath Gauge on: Sheltron, Intervene, Cover, or Clemancy. I think this would make PLD a lot more enjoyable and better for utility. It shouldn't be affected by Requiscat as that should be for DPS rotation only, not utility, in my opinion.

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That's a hard nope, damage type is a massive factor in determining DPS of tanks. Warrior and Dark Knight have heavy burst openers, so their damage has to have a bigger drop off to compensate. Paladin and Gunbreaker have less burst in comparison therefore have to have a higher sustain.

It is also worth pointing out Paladin has one less personal mitigation tool, when compared to the other 3 tanks, which is a fair trade off. Further, Paladin has the highest cost factor to it's utility than any other tank. 50 gauge is a requirement to use one of two actions, and has to be weighed up against Sheltron usage. Divine Veil requires co-ordination, and Passage of Arms can be a loss in DPS, if required to channel (this should only be done in down time where a loss will not occur, but some exceptions may apply).

Raise on a tank is not healthy nor does it make sense, and while I do not agree with Lyth's want for restrictions on raise, I do agree that we have more than enough jobs with a raise currently.

Thus far I find your opinion completely out of touch with how the job currently plays, and would add nothing of benefit to Paladin, and personally think your ideas would ruin probably the best designed tank at present. If it ain't broke it don't need fixing.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

2. Give PLD a slow cast raise that can be cast in battle. Seeing as they do not have Swiftcast, it should remain a slow cast.

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This.

I suspect that Paladins will eventually get Raise as a level 90 or 99 skill-- it's definitely coming, look forward to it.

I prefer Clemency to stay as it is.
A niche skill you like to have when things get ugly, which can happen a lot in DF.

Being able to cast it mostly whenever you want feels great.
Yes, Paladin doesn't have the same self-healing capabilites without sacrificing dps as Warrior, but that's what's remain of class indentity, something a lot of people have complained about for Shb.

As for the raise ability, I don't know.
We know what happen with balance and raise, rdm already suffered a lot for that
But having it on a slow cast could balance it already since it would be a big dps loss.
So why not I guess ? But it would make paladin a must have for prog then if other tank don't have something to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I think PLD should have the lowest damage as utility should be traded for damage. Thematically speaking, PLD should have most utility and should be lowest DPS of the four tanks. This is good, healthy, proper game design in my opinion.

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Considering how damage centric this game is, if any class did notably less damage than the other classes in its role it would be dropped like a rock. This has happened before and we have every reason to believe it would happen again.

Additionally, more utility wouldn't be a very compelling tradeoff. Maybe it could be a useful prog tool for when everyone is messing up, but as soon as people have it down and are actually pushing for a clear the PLD's lower damage is just a liability and they'd be better off swapping jobs at that point.

If PLD had more/better utility to make up for the lower damage, it might lead to some clever cheese strats, but that would still regulate the job to a niche pick you'd not only use just in certain fights, but also only if your static/PUG is behind the idea. And "niche" is not a healthy place for a class to be.

It's also questionable how much the utility would be useful to pugging in the first place. We can't say until we see the proposed tools.

But extra survivability and better prog tools aren't even all that valued. You mention a rez and the casters next:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

RDM and SMN should have lower DPS than BLM since BLM offers no utility. Having a Raise would be massive utility when pugging, and save a lot of wipes.

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However, when parties were recruiting for TEA, Red Mages were being flat out rejected from groups. Sure, the Rez Mage and can be instrumental in keeping your pull together, but even for prog BLM and the overturned SMN were just bringing so much more damage that RDMs got widely passed up.
Sure, that's Ultimate content, but that's also the Rez Mage being rejected from the most lethal level of content.

I can see where you're coming from, especially from a thematic standpoint, but I don't think FF14's design could allow a "this is the defensive tank" sort of class to succeed.

Clemency is fine as it is, not every button needs to be useful in every scenario. Leave a little flavour on jobs.

What I would like though, is for Divine Veil to put a shield on the PLD first, and then pressing it again spreads it to the party. Makes it a flexible option then, a choice between personal or party mitigation.

I would rather clemency stay the same, making it an oGCD would just make PLD feel more homogenized, if you want to heal more efficiently you can already sacrifice damage to do it and that fits thematically. My personal request would be an ability similar to shield swipe, an ability that's triggered/available on block or comes from a resource gained from block (stacks).

Let's take a look at some of the ideas in this thread.

1) I want to be able to instant cast raise on a job that can invuln through mechanics.
2) I want WAR to use Cover, an iconic PLD ability with thirty years of history behind it.
3) I want an oGCD heal that I can use on demand without a recast timer attached. Something that no healer in the game has access to.

What worries me is that the dev team will probably try to implement these.

Clemency costing oath IS an idea, but I would suggest its heal value is directly tied to your oath gauge and it empties it on use coupled with a cooldown. currently I barely touch my oath gauge if im not MT, mainly using it to cover someone who got rezzed
The question is, do we want it to keep its solo potential? That should be a guide to how strong it should be.

Slow cast raise- cost it 100 oath and make it on the condition that a melee gets a raise too.

Warrior getting cover? Absolutely not. Warrior already gets the best survivability and dps, lets not give it paladin's niche of party support too.

How about we just stick with a no cast raise? I know that pre-expansion everyone is keen to get in their game breaking suggestions in the hopes that the dev team is clueless enough to implement them (hint: they are), but lets all have some restraint. Tanks have enough design problems to worry about without PLDs using Hallowed Raise to bypass raid mechanics in prog.

This might be me, but I would very much like the game devs to crack down on raises and invulns this next expansion, even if only on harder difficulty settings. Part of what made Titan historically challenging wasn't the threat of falling off, but rather the fact that you had to sit and think about what you had done at the bottom of the cliff. Even Warcraft players are able to work with restrictions placed on their battle raises. I think we need to set some minimum standards of competence.

Sure, PLD could get a raise or whatever other likely ridiculous option has (and will again be) been put forward on these forums, but perhaps we should be looking at something that won't get it penalized into oblivion instead? Like oh, say, another personal mitigation button? PLD's utility is certainly wonderful, but being relegated to permanent OT is something that rubs a lot of PLD players the wrong way. Having even one more personal mitigation tool could do a lot insofar as convincing groups to let their PLD MT.