Monk - Greased Lightning :(

I just came back to FF14, and what have they done to my monk? I really missed the actively stacking version of greased lightning... It felt so good to ramp up in speed as you fought... Sadge.

Monk's changed a lot.

I think one thing I'm certain of, is I don't miss the TP management, I recall how the way greased lightning used to work drained TP fast, like really fast. xD

Part of me kinda misses it too, MNK feels a bit too basic but MNK has been a problem for years now with useless abilities and weird mechanics.

Hopefully in Endwalkers it improves and we get a rework.

This is the reason I ditched MNK.I main the job since 2.2 but have to reluctantly changed my melee main in 5.4.
Funny thing is by patch 5.4, The only bozjan weapon I have is MNK weapon.
And because of that I have to upgrade weapon to i535 for the job which I didn’t play anymore.
So ironic, I can literally only laugh to myself like an idiot.

I miss the days of Double TK, three GL stacks and 60 second Perfect Balance, but alas the damage from ShB has already been done. Though I don't agree with SE's methods of "if we can't make it work then we'll just friggin delete it," them not wasting time on GL is for the better because they utterly mishandled every attempt to expand on it.

Now we can hope for a better implementation of Chakra, which they definitely won't screw up. And they surely won't tie anymore useless skills to the fist stances or reimplement old skills with way more limitations! This time for sure r-right guys?!

Monk is likely in the middle of a massive rework. Endwalker will likely see the class remade from the ground up. Greased Lightning was really fun, until it didn't fit the game. Every transition or unhittable phase and your damage is gone and it became a lot less fun. So right now it looks bad, with many skills that are very niche or straight up never used, but hopefully September we'll get a peak at what they're planning and fingers crossed it's good.

Removing GL was overkill, I was perfectly fine with the changes to Form shift and perfect balance and Tornado kick.

It was unfortunately outdated with how they design fights now. More and more fights have sections where you just can't hit the boss for 20+ seconds and some you can't even move for Anataman. Even then, it requires an ability slot to be taken by an ability whose only purpose is ensure 30% of your damage doesn't drop during things beyond your control. It also becomes this issue, if you're adding 2,3,4 skills that extend or prevent your GL from dropping, and a Mnk literally always wants it up, why not have it as a permanent trait? It's the same logic that caused them to remove the Protect spell.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the concept of GL. A class that just gets faster and faster the more aggressive they play? That's awesome to me. That's my playstyle in a lot of action games. Hell make GL have 100 stack cap and harder to maintain so good skill play is rewarded by faster and faster damage. Encourage greedy aggressive play and make Mnk really get good at weaving between attacks. I'd love that. But from a design standpoint in current game I get why they removed it.

I miss the green/lightning aura so much!

And MNK was my very first class too, but removing such a core concept like GL was too much, it literally killed the class to me.

The reason why Greased Lightning stacks were removed is obvious, and it was.. a fix, to the problem, but I still much do not like it.
I do not like that Greased Lightning is now a passive trait... It could have been fixed, rather than deleted.

Any person can look at my join date and see that I am new to the FFXIV forums, I was not around here before patch 5.4 was a thing, but I did have a idea, for a rework to Greased Lightning stacks, that may or may not have fixed it, back before patch 5.4...

My idea was thus: third action of a combo still grants a stack, but stack duration is now up to a maximum of 45 seconds, and the third action of a combo will neither grant the full 45 seconds, nor refresh the duration to the full 45 seconds; as instead, the first third action of a combo grants only 10 seconds to Greased Lightning stack duration, while the third action of a combo after the first, will extend the duration of Greased Lightning stacks by 10 seconds, up to a maximum of 45 seconds.

keep in mind that even at super slow 2.5 GCD, that would be 7.5 seconds to gain 10 seconds, so as long as the Monk keeps combos in flow, it would be easy to build up to and stay at the 45 second maximum, and this would be essential, for Greased Lightning stacks to not be lost when ever bosses can not be attacked.

in most cases, those moments when bosses go away last around 20 to 30 seconds, so 45 seconds would persist through, and that fixes the loss of stacks problem, while this design will make it not BrainDead easy/straight-forward to maintain Greased Lightning stacks and the Greased Lightning stack duration, as well.
while, in the case of 10 seconds every combo being "too generous" or "too easy", it could even be just 7 or 8 seconds, to make the stack maintenance, and to reach the maximum duration, a little more difficult.

Alas.. we have boring and dull Greased Lightning passive traits, these days.. that part of Monk's literal identity was deleted.. pre-monk Pugilist story even still explains Greased Lightning as stacks for some reason, RIP.. and I doubt that Monk would ever revert to Greased Lightning stacks, but I still want to share what my idea was, even though it is far too late.

MNK could have easily had a rotation similar to BLM astral and umbral but for fire and wind fists. The closest we got was the pre 5.4 opener with fire into wind. A real missed opportunity for the weaponskills to change in their respective stances similar to how the Inner Chaos works. It would effectively double their gcd rotation without actually increasing the skill bloat. Imagine FoF doing some beefy crits and DH then switching to FoW to apply dots and buffs. Some examples of the same skill but in different stances:

Fist of Fire dmg +5%, GL4:
-Bootshine deals 100% Direct hit crit with DK buff
-Twin Snakes increases chakra gauge by 1 if performed from rear
-Demolish reduces cd of elixir field and shoulder tackle by 5 secs
-Snap Punch unchanged
-Forbidden chakra increased potency

Fists of Wind dmg +5%, GL4:
-Bootshine unchanged
-Twin Snakes adds movement speed for set duration regardless of stance
-Demolish unchanged
-Snap Punch adds a dot
-Forbidden chakra refreshes all dot timers

Just some random ideas. All I can hope for in 6.0 is that MNK doesn't get another skill that counteracts its playstyle at lvl 90 i.e. Six sided star.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

I miss the green/lightning aura so much!

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That animation was sharp as hell, i do miss it.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I miss the days of Double TK, three GL stacks and 60 second Perfect Balance, but alas the damage from ShB has already been done. Though I don't agree with SE's methods of "if we can't make it work then we'll just friggin delete it," them not wasting time on GL is for the better because they utterly mishandled every attempt to expand on it.

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I mean, if the problem was the attempted expansions onto GL (via Anatman, etc.), and the version just prior to those expansions was frequently held as the best state MNK has ever been in... couldn't they have just deleted the pointless additions and gave back the tools (e.g., 60-second PB) that they previously removed as to shoehorn those additions in? Voila. Fixed without having to delete a thing.

More than a lack of vision, it seems like Monk over the last 2 years has suffered from a developer-perceived need to apply the sledge hammer over the chisel. 4.3's problem wasn't the double or even triple TK builds; it was how optimal play punished ping. Had they simply move the GL generation from Riddle of Wind to Wind Tackle, that'd have mostly been fixed. There were occasional issues with Tornado Kick, since it's now used rotationally, being unable to see use just before a jump? Then you remove its cooldown, which it has zero need for anyways. Incredibly simple, yet far more effective than the nerfs and dung-presented-as-diamonds additions of Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

I miss the green/lightning aura so much!

And MNK was my very first class too, but removing such a core concept like GL was too much, it literally killed the class to me.

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YES.

I want it back ( the glow ) :(.........
I am hoping that they're keeping it for a new mechanic and that's why we don't have it anymore.

The devs wants phase transitions to be part of the normal gameplay but monk wasn't designed for that also spamming form shift until the tank pulls isn't very fun

I hope next expansion they make monk more flashy maybe we could be like that one monk boss in that one dungeon and toss tigers around

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Monk's changed a lot.

I think one thing I'm certain of, is I don't miss the TP management, I recall how the way greased lightning used to work drained TP fast, like really fast. xD

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Only if you didn't properly use Invigorate & Purification <<

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

Monk is likely in the middle of a massive rework. Endwalker will likely see the class remade from the ground up. Greased Lightning was really fun, until it didn't fit the game. Every transition or unhittable phase and your damage is gone and it became a lot less fun. So right now it looks bad, with many skills that are very niche or straight up never used, but hopefully September we'll get a peak at what they're planning and fingers crossed it's good.

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Even with boss interrupts, MNK damage was fine. It just meant that the skill ceiling was raised high.

It had nothing to do with skill ceiling. GL was literally 20% of Mnk's damage and a lot of fights started having phases where you literally couldn't keep it up causing you to have to rebuild your damage. No amount of skill matters when you literally can't do anything as you watch the timer run out. Yes it could be rebuilt with PB or form shift but that was the point. Perfect balance, Form Shift, Anatman, Riddle of Earth all of these abilities were almost exclusively used to maintain, rebuild or extend GL timer. Then when you include Fists stances and SSS before the tweek you're looking at a class that had the most niche or unused skills of any class. One or two is understandable. Six is a bit much. The simple fact is Monk as it was designed in 2.0 Doesn't fit the design philosophy of 5.0 and beyond. I'm not saying it didn't have it's charm, it just didn't fit the game anymore.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

It had nothing to do with skill ceiling. GL was literally 20% of Mnk's damage and a lot of fights started having phases where you literally couldn't keep it up causing you to have to rebuild your damage.

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"A lot of fights"? Even back when GL was a mere 10 seconds, across all of Twisting Coil there were only 2 forced drops, in T9 meteor phase and T13 transition. Plenty of Monks dropped it far more often, but those were the only two actually unavoidable.

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Perfect balance, Form Shift, Anatman, Riddle of Earth all of these abilities were almost exclusively used to maintain, rebuild or extend GL timer.

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Perfect Balance: Let's not pretend 4.3 Monk didn't happen. It did, and it was pretty damn good. There, PB had nothing to do with GL maintenance, only the initial generation. In all else, it simply interplayed with Tornado Kick. I.e., not just for GL maintenance.
Form Shift: Was not used solely to maintain GL, but instead often for alignment across forced downtime. (It also would work fine, if not better, as a passive -- no button required.) I.e., not just for GL maintenance.
Anatman: We already have a community consensus that Anatman was redundant rubbish in the context of RoE. A redundant tool being added later does not suddenly break a mechanic that worked until then.
Riddle of Earth: The points at which RoE was useful also marked resource wastes or awkward cooldown alignments for many another job. Ultimately, it would have been better if transition phases, or at least those that stopped character control, also paused all buff durations (and maybe even ability cooling, as not to unfairly favor high %oGCD-damage jobs), but it is what it is.

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The simple fact is Monk as it was designed in 2.0 Doesn't fit the design philosophy of 5.0 and beyond. I'm not saying it didn't have it's charm, it just didn't fit the game anymore.

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I fully disagree, as the problems stemmed more from conflicts in the most recent design additions alone, and two very simple long-time oversights (there being no need for all stacks to fall at the same time, nor to tie so damn damage %damage to GL), rather than any and all iterations upon building up and expending a speed-affecting buff being doomed to fail. The latter idea smacks of Hw-era DRG complaints, where some called it a fundamentally impossible design simply because they couldn't be bothered to learn how to use it.

But even if it were somehow as impossible a fit as you say, leaving a job utterly gutless is no solution. When literally just having removed the job-specific changes of the latest expansion would leave you with a deeper, more engaging, and more cohesive job... that's a problem.

Outside of the glow I personally don't care much about GL as it was coming back.
To me I'd like to see them go deeper into the combo actions and make that part of the identity of MNK.
Rework the combos to be less monotonous and with more moment to moment decisions.
Not really sure how I am not a game designer but personally I feel like it'd fit the fantasy more.

I want to it to be less predictable with actual decision making, sorta like on SAM for example if there's downtime and you have to sorta run a calculation in your head whether to skip the filler phase to line things up correctly.
Or with more dynamic refreshes of Demolish and Twin Snakes.
Our burst phase is sorta another good example of what I mean where our base combos are thrown off and our combos change, I want to see more of that but not necessarily so on rails.
I want it to feel rewarding to actually understand what's going on and having to make decisions.
It feels rewarding on SAM imo when things get thrown off because of downtime and you adapt and line things up perfectly, it feels like you're rewarded for skillfull play.

On MNK I just feel like it's awkward currently, it doesn't even necessarily feel good to try and adapt your burst phase to lineup correctly after things get thrown off.
And MNK is a Job that shouldn't be on rails imo, it should be more dynamic and fast-paced.
The only skill that really feels that way is Forbidden Chakra.

That was actually the original design philosophy of the job. When first making Mnk the idea behind the job was "Combo Master". They've also said for a long time they didn't know how to really fix the job is. Either way next month we should get a peak at what our job will become.