Dungeons Need a Gear check system

I've been doing lots of dungeons and raids with my fc master, we've been queing for high level dungeons, people have been coming into dungeons with 1 - 15 level gear or they completely neglect the right side of their toon. It makes a healers job harder if the tank has too low a level gear. Thus my fc master and me have had to leave the dungeon when we group up with people that don't care about gearing for a dungeon. WE need a gear rating system that makes sure everybody has gear that is equal level gear or higher.

Don't we have this?
If your iLVL is too low you can't que in.
Every dungeon is 110% clearable with a full party at this minimum iLVL, so I'm not sure how much more of a check is actually needed.

I'm fairly certain dungeons only start requiring item levels at LV50. I don't believe Sastasha up to Aurum Vale has ilv requirements.

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Originally Posted by Kemiko

I'm fairly certain dungeons only start requiring item levels at LV50. I don't believe Sastasha up to Aurum Vale has ilv requirements.

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That's correct.
For some reason, ARR dungeons and story trials are still an exception to this rule although some of them, like Brayflox or Stone Vigil, can hit quite hard and it's really noticable if someone in the party is joining with starter gear. They may have left ARR dungeons out of this because it's extremely easy to cheese the ilvl with gear only being tied to level, not class/ role for the most part. You could show up in lv 30 crafter gear and pass the ilvl req.
So they'd have to adjust that aswell. Easier to just add it for HW onwards where you can't cheese as much.
Easier to just make it from HW onwards

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Don't we have this?
If your iLVL is too low you can't que in.
Every dungeon is 110% clearable with a full party at this minimum iLVL, so I'm not sure how much more of a check is actually needed.

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You can cheese min ILV by having few high level pieces. For example WHM with full 270 except ilv1 weapon can enter almost all HW content and then not being able to heal anything. A little extreme case but very much possible.
TBH the min ilv should be per piece and not average.

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Originally Posted by AleXwern

You can cheese min ILV by having few high level pieces. For example WHM with full 270 except ilv1 weapon can enter almost all HW content and then not being able to heal anything. A little extreme case but very much possible.
TBH the min ilv should be per piece and not average.

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I feel it should have a floor on the minimum that's below the average iLvl required but beyond that be fine.

That way someone doesn't have to replace every item on them by the time the next iLvl increase happens.

Just choosing random numbers here:

Like avg iLvl required is 400. Minimum individual iLvl required is 320.

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Originally Posted by AleXwern

You can cheese min ILV by having few high level pieces. For example WHM with full 270 except ilv1 weapon can enter almost all HW content and then not being able to heal anything. A little extreme case but very much possible.
TBH the min ilv should be per piece and not average.

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This is not a real problem because the only way that this happend is if the person is trolling. Like ppl that remove gear inside the dng, beside from that is not a big problem.

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Originally Posted by Felien

This is not a real problem because the only way that this happend is if the person is trolling. Like ppl that remove gear inside the dng, beside from that is not a big problem.

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Had a tank in Snowcloak (min iLvl 80) with a lvl 43 weapon and lvl 46 body piece. The rest of the left hand side was under 80 but the right hand side was tomestone accessories and thats what got them in. I think they saw that the accessories were cheaper and started from there.

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Originally Posted by MrMagic

Had a tank in Snowcloak (min iLvl 80) with a lvl 43 weapon and lvl 46 body piece. The rest of the left hand side was under 80 but the right hand side was tomestone accessories and thats what got them in. I think they saw that the accessories were cheaper and started from there.

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How did the run go?

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Originally Posted by AleXwern

TBH the min ilv should be per piece and not average.

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So people can be locked out by having gotten unlucky with wrist drops, even while the rest is fine? No.

Weighted contribution would be fine.

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Originally Posted by MrMagic

Had a tank in Snowcloak (min iLvl 80) with a lvl 43 weapon and lvl 46 body piece. The rest of the left hand side was under 80 but the right hand side was tomestone accessories and thats what got them in. I think they saw that the accessories were cheaper and started from there.

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This is not perfect but i don't see it as a problem at all, btw i'm a main healer. I really don't undestand why is a big deal, just because you are going to need the heal him more than 1 time in the hole dng? Need to remamber that Snowcloak is a lv 50 dng so is that far.

I wish that once the player hit lv 50 they recive enought poetic to buy a full set of the ironwoks gear, because could help then get into HW even faster. HW and SB, they can already do that.

And let's be honest we have always complete the expansions with some parts of our gear or acc max ilvl from the last expansion.

So why some ppl want that they need to buy the BIS for every level? Plus the Sync is not even close to be good, just try to do A1S sync looks like A1 back then.

I wish more people would run undergeared into Dungeons, so that i dont fall asleep on the job as a healer.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

How did the run go?

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Complete and utter wipe fest. Tank was also playing badly and standing in everything so the terrible gear just compounded the issue. I ended up tanking the bosses a bit with Titan as the tank wouldn't bother using Provoke after they had hit the floor. There was no problem with the healer. They were the one who brought it up and if they decided to vote kick I would have clicked yes. They were a Mentor though and decided to push through it and offer advice.

Bunnies went well. Markers and party chat were ignored by the other English speaking DPS until 2/3rds through the fight. It was a slow dungeon.

My point was that the stats are weighted toward the main hand then body / pants so the gear on that tank was a terrible combo.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I wish more people would run undergeared into Dungeons, so that i dont fall asleep on the job as a healer.

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Aslong as you dps, you shouldnt be bored.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Aslong as you dps, you shouldnt be bored.

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Spamming one Button and pressing a second one every 30sec is hardly something i'd call fun.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Don't we have this?
If your iLVL is too low you can't que in.
Every dungeon is 110% clearable with a full party at this minimum iLVL, so I'm not sure how much more of a check is actually needed.

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No.

A player with a bunch of Scaevan accessories (and Menphina earrings), no leftside and level1 weapon would be i156. This would be enough ilvl to queue into any 2.00-3.00 duty. However, this is nowhere near the amount of stats you *should* have if done synced.

This is all on DRG (since I have the Scaevan set already for Reaper).

I just queued into Fractal Normal on DRG, a dungeon that I'd meet ilvl for with the above gear. I have 6809hp, 527str, 0/0 defense. This is barely "better" than ARR stats in a 3.0 Level 60 dungeon.

Queuing into Fractal Normal with all my gear but syncing to the min.ilvl, gives me 10351hp, 781str, 853/672def.

It's possible to cheese the ilvl so that you have significantly fewer stats than intended even at minimum ilvl - And let's be real, the minimum ilvl isn't the intended ilvl, even leveling through MSQ their first time, the MSQ will give you plenty of gear to be way beyond the min.ilvl.

But hey, let's kick it up another notch.

Let's say we're all Scaevan, Menphina's earrings, no belt, Level 1 weapon (no belt because I don't have one atm).

Wouldn't you know it, I'm i310. Enough to queue all the way into Fractal Hard. Mind you, I don't even have a belt on. So what kind of damage difference is this compared to all gear, synced m.Ilvl?

My autoattack with this setup is roughly 500/autoattack, and my True Thrust is 1000.

With actual gear at m.Ilvl, my autoattack is 1300, and True Thrust is about 2500.

Quick maths, this is way less than HALF the output of minimum item level.

Want some perspective? M.ilvl with gear at level 60 (Sohm Al), my autoattack is ~600, and my True Thrust is ~1300.

That's right. "i310" with level1 weapon, no belt, all Scaevan+Menphinas, is literally weaker than Level 60.

It's very easy, especially for a weak weapon, to ruin somebody's output. If you have a piece significantly far behind, you are also far behind the listed ilvl. The listed ilvl does not accurately reflect your stats.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So people can be locked out by having gotten unlucky with wrist drops, even while the rest is fine? No.

Weighted contribution would be fine.

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Abania m.ilvl is 260. Shire is 270. MSQ gives gear better than that.

It would be impossible to be locked out due to how absurdly low the ilvl requirements already are, unless somebody refused to upgrade past Level 60 NQ vendor gear (which is terrible gear for its level). If that's the case, go spend a tiny amount of gil to upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Luin

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The OP has called the minimum ilvl requirements insufficient, noting the possibility of certain slots being far below the level dropped or immediately prior to the content being run.

The most direct "solution" to this "problem", as noted in the post I responded to, would be a slot-by-slot ilvl check.

I merely responded to note that the only problem with average ilvl is that it weights all slots equally, despite their having different value per ilvl. If they were weighted properly, how a player gets to that item level would be irrelevant. If I'm running Gubal Library (level 59-60 dungeon that only even drops i148s) with a weighted average of i200 (largely due to my i270 weapon) it hardly matters that I am missing a ring.

We could argue for or against higher ilvl requirements for any and all content, but that is a separate issue. By all means, feel free to request higher ilvl requirements to access DF contents, but such has little to do with this thread.

I once did The Swallow's Compass, as a sch, with Garuda book. I was doing some glam photoshoot in the morning and forgot tiochange back the weapon in the afternoon for the usual roulettes. I managed, but lol.. i tought, never again xD

No Sorry, It was Bardam's mettle

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

That's correct.
For some reason, ARR dungeons and story trials are still an exception to this rule

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I suspect the sheer speed at which you level at that point has something to do with that.

With all the exp buffs and stuff that are currently in place, expecting players to keep up to date on gear that early is impossible.
With so much exp thrown out players with have outlevelled any new gear they get before they've even put it in their armory chest.

This Is doubled by the fact that even just doing the msq you end up so far ahead. You can easily be level 48 and only just reached quarn or cutters cry in the story. This then makes any gear you get useless because your already 10 levels higher than the quest / dungeon level and reward.

After 50 though I think the requirements are about right though maybe some tuning on slot balance wouldn't go amiss.

But smashing library at 59 in full 130 ironworks is still good enough gear to get the duty done smoothly. even if you could be 145? at theat point.

Same way shire would take you all the way to 70 and augmented cryptbunker 530 will probably easily last you right up to 90 in 6.0.

Basically the best augmented tome gear from the previous expansion and then just replace any bits you do get upgrades for via guaranteed drops if you get any appropriate ones otherwise augmented tome gear all the way to new cap is fine.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So people can be locked out by having gotten unlucky with wrist drops, even while the rest is fine? No.

Weighted contribution would be fine.

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Generally I agree, but you occasionally can have situations where weighted backfires. The most infamous run for me was Akademia Anyder where the tank had entirely augmented scaevan gear on left side aside from weapon (which was stage 1 relic) and maybe the belt. Right side must have been higher level gear so the tank barely qualified, but since left side gear definitely matters more than right side, they were barely able to handle single pulls and got kicked right after the first boss.

I dunno what the solution to that is other than maybe have a minimum ilvl for individual pieces that's lower than the min average ilvl, but that might be getting too in the weeds. It was a pretty unusual situation to say the least.

They could check the standard deviation in addition to the average item level, so that you cant qualify for something because only a few really high ilv gear pieces. ive seen people in the alexander normal raids wearing dungeon gear from like the aery or the vault but they managed to get in because of some shire accessories.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Generally I agree, but you occasionally can have situations where weighted backfires. The most infamous run for me was Akademia Anyder where the tank had entirely augmented scaevan gear on left side aside from weapon (which was stage 1 relic) and maybe the belt. Right side must have been higher level gear so the tank barely qualified, but since left side gear definitely matters more than right side, they were barely able to handle single pulls and got kicked right after the first boss.

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How is that not nonetheless a significant improvement over their ilvl being propped up only by their right side, with their Defense and Weapon DPS (and Strength and Vitality, to a lesser extent) being that of one 40 ilvl too low?

Again, at that point you're merely arguing for increased ilvl requirements, not a change to the system itself.

By all means, do both, but an unweighted system allows for a far greater shortfall in stats (especially those most meaningful) than does a weighted one. Having each slot contribute to the average ilvl rating as much as it can contribute to your overall stats is objectively better.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Aslong as you dps, you shouldnt be bored.

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I'd agree with you if WHM had an actual DPS rotation...

IMO it's long overdue for a per item ilvl minimum check on everything from the level 50 content forward, assuming that it's possible to get the gear from the vendors so that someone has the option to get vendor gear to bring themselves up to whatever item ilvl floor requirement is there. If SE does implement an item ilvl floor check, the UI should point out which gear fails the check despite the overall ilvl passing the requirement so the player can fix the offending pieces and carry on. With as easy as the 130/270/400 gear is to get, the ilvl floor should be set so that someone can use the appropriate gear set from 50-59, 60-69, and 70-79 if they so choose.

I'm all for catching the edge cases, as bringing up the bottom end is going to be better for everyone involved.