Why All the One-Button Mechanics?

Mana Management - Eclipsed in most content and in most cases by hitting on CD a button that typically serves no other purpose.

Knockbacks - Mostly eclipsed by hitting a button that, for all but one role, serves no other purpose.

Positionals - Eclipsed by hitting a button that serves no other purpose.

Etc, etc.

...If the mechanics are worth having, why do we then bloat our bars just to either (A) ensure they're typically non-mechanics or (B) bypass any need for polish to said mechanics?

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Consider it this way:

Is MP a worthwhile mechanic? Is the game better off for having it?

If so, is the game also better off for having devalued all parts of managing one's MP besides hitting a certain button once per minute?

If not, why is the button there?

Similarly, are knockbacks fun to have in the game? Is the game better off for having them?

If so, is the game also better off for most knockbacks being a matter of hitting a certain button, rather than pre-positioning?

If not, why is the button there?

We're increasingly told that previously held and often more meaningful skills, mechanics, etc., need to be pruned due to limited bar space, but at the same time, we're spending bar space specifically on buttons that do nothing but remove mechanics we've already spent time developing or devalue related play that we seem to generally think the game is better having than not having. ...Why?
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:: I am not advocating for the removal of these MP, positionals, displacement, or the like.
:: I am not asking for even more buttons by which to make mechanics into non-mechanics.
:: I am advocating that we not spend valuable button-space on watering those mechanics down and would assert that if those mechanics are worth having at all (and I believe they are), then they're worth polishing and making wholly meaningful.

Things being complex for the sake of it is bad design. No reason to have more than one thing to press for these.

It used to be worse in the case of casters. I could get rid of a good deal of the knockback /draw in mechs in a given fight due to how short the surecast cooldown was. The devs fixed that by increasing the cooldown a lot. My guess is that the idea of it is you can basically remove one mech (though it doesn't always work) for a fight but you have to pick which one. If you mess up the mech, you can stop from being thrown off of the platform for example. I know I've done that before, you just can't keep doing that for the entire fight.

I'm not sure I follow...
Are you suggesting there'd be less of a problem if our (for example) knockback tools were more than one button?

Honestly, using a gap closer instead of a knockback immune is much more fun.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I'm not sure I follow...
Are you suggesting there'd be less of a problem if our (for example) knockback tools were more than one button?

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Quite the opposite.

I'm asking why we're creating or working around mechanics that will typically only ever amount to hitting the button of appropriate type rather than the more nuanced play of, say, MP management, prepositioning, etc.
Or, put inversely... Why are we devaluing mechanics that are capable of being much more nuanced response cues and which, until Stormblood, were predominantly meant to cause those response cues instead of mere typal button presses?
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Compare Arm's Length (on a non-tank) to any gap-closer, for instance, especially one with a potency-cost if held for a knockback. The latter isn't made just to remove a mechanic. If you banked it correctly, you come out on top. If there were no knockbacks in that period and you delayed it to outside your damage-bonus window despite that, you fall slightly behind. It therefore interacts interestingly with knockbacks, whether by intent or mere incidence. But, it remains a valuable tool even outside the presence of those specific mechanics. It isn't merely a matter of "Incoming Mechanic Type [A]. Hit Button [A] to remove it again from the game, except in the rare event it's more frequent than your cooldown."

i think it just adds more variety to a fight? don't want to deal with a mechanic? anti-knockback.

some part of the fight went melee positional unfriendly? true north.

I know some people that complain sometimes that a fight should just cater to their class because they just want the big deeps. but that kind of thinking if a fight is designed that way would be less interesting imo.

if you want to fight a dummy go fight a dummy any where in the open world or Stone Sea Sky.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Honestly, using a gap closer instead of a knockback immune is much more fun.

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See, there was a time when I would have said "You get one or the other", primarily because it helps cement a playfeel for the class.

The Dark Knight can be knocked away, but they'll be back on you. The Paladin will never leave. The warrior has neither, but they'll chuck a mother trucking rock at you now that they're out of melee.

Different solutions to the same problem, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

i think it just adds more variety to a fight? don't want to deal with a mechanic? anti-knockback.

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So, the ability to have no mechanic adds variety... while the mechanic being immunized does what, exactly? What makes having pressing a button up to once per 2 minutes so much more diverse and enjoyable than... prepositioning, for instance?

While there may, in the rare case of very frequent knockbacks, be some added decision-making in determining which knockback to immunize, the ability to not do a given mechanic will necessarily occlude... doing that mechanic, and in many a fight Arm's Length and Surecast are sufficient for every knockback.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

if you want to fight a dummy go fight a dummy any where in the open world or Stone Sea Sky.

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I've asked for these mechanics to be more polished and meaningful, rather than watered down or otherwise half-assed. At no point have I asked that the average raid fight become even more like striking dummy practice.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, the ability to have no mechanic adds variety... while the mechanic being immunized does what, exactly? What makes having pressing a button up to once per 2 minutes so much more diverse and enjoyable than... prepositioning, for instance?

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Useful as an... oh crap button I suppose. Or maybe you're in the middle of a combo and don't want to be interrupted? any myriad amount of reasons.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While there may, in the rare case of very frequent knockbacks, be some added decision-making in determining which knockback to immunize, the ability to not do a given mechanic will necessarily occlude... doing that mechanic, and in many a fight Arm's Length and Surecast are sufficient for every knockback.

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say you don't want to lose uptime by having to deal with a knockback. now you can ignore pre-positioning and just keep on wailing on.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've asked for these mechanics to be more polished and meaningful, rather than watered down or otherwise half-assed. At no point have I asked that the average raid fight become even more like striking dummy practice.

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that comment wasn't directed at you more to the general gamer that complains that a fight doesn't cater to their class and want to have to deal with it being inconvenient for them.

I'm all for more polished and meaningful fights but ymmv.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

say you don't want to lose uptime by having to deal with a knockback. now you can ignore pre-positioning and just keep on wailing on.

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I'm more than aware of the benefit. I maximize its use, myself. And I do get satisfaction out of doing so. I just doubt it's more than I'd get from using more versatile tools well, if I didn't already have that otherwise useless tool taking up their would-be role.

Let me rephrase:

When you have, say, a knockback mechanic with a minimal interval never less two minutes spread, we're essentially paying bar space just to not engage in a fight's design. That in turn both reduces apparent urgency and theme in that fight and reduces the need for polish or satisfying usability across other, more versatile skills -- say, Aetherial Manipulation, Fists of Wind as actually doing something of note, Jump and the various Dives as a much more timely kb-immunization period over their animation locks, Shields as notable kb-mitigation or -nullification, etc. That seems, to me at least, too large a hole in the long term for the satisfaction of having hit a particular extra-and-otherwise-useless button at the right time to climb out of.

Or, put another way, it just feels like a very half-assed impasse, atm. Either the cooldowns of nullifying abilities should be longer or the mechanics more frequent, such as to at least generate nearly as much gameplay through choosing when to use the nullifier as otherwise seen through all the various other skills or play that would interact with the non-nullified mechanic (Sprint, gap-closers, move-to's, prepositioning, shields, etc.), or the specific nullifier should be removed and other, more versatile, job-specific, and/or granular/nuanced ways of interacting with the mechanic improved upon.

having that button though makes up for other people not going along with the "plan", or doing their job "properly" or other jobs that just simply don't have the luxury. there's no accounting for player skill level either.

what if jump isn't up? shields weren't put up in time? manipulation is on cd cuz i fat fingered it?

mistakes happen and this allows everyone a "get out of jail free" card?

Positional should be scrapped honestly. They're not interesting at all. Not rewarding and already at a point where more and more content completely nullifies them anyway.

Knock back immunity I think isn't a bad idea if anytbing I'd say its issue is one of consistency. Of the top of my head ifni made a list the list of knock backs arms length or something had no effect on would be bigger than the ones it did.. thats the problem and why most players never even put it on there hot bars because it rarely works. Why have a knockback immunity that 75% of knockbacks totally ignore... so yeah that is a questionable skill.

My management... well a this point they could go the way ofntp and just get rid of mp entirely they've totally andbutterly killed the concept of resource management.

I think that positionals are on their way out. I'm predicting that they will experiment with this on Reaper, if they're not outright removing them.

Knockback mechanics tend to be lethal in platform fights. If you don't want a dedicated knockback-prevention button, then there should be a minimum range on gapclosers so that you're not forced to burn them for potency.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that positionals are on their way out. I'm predicting that they will experiment with this on Reaper, if they're not outright removing them.

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I don't think they would have revamped the direction marker if they planed to get rid of positionals.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I don't think they would have revamped the direction marker if they planed to get rid of positionals.

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Why. The direction marker was revamped to show which direction the boss is facing for mechanics purposes. It was done specifically for bosses without positional requirements..

So if anything it would suggest positional are on the way out. Especially with how much recent content basically ignores them.

They're useless as is anyway. Been mathed to equate to less than 1% of your damage on 3 of the 4 jobs that require them. Then with the super focus on accessibility and simplicity as well another reason why it wouldn't be surprising if they went... as much as I may hate that focus. I would happily see positional get canned.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Why. The direction marker was revamped to show which direction the boss is facing for mechanics purposes. It was done specifically for bosses without positional requirements..

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Really?
When/where did they the devs say that?

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I don't think they would have revamped the direction marker if they planed to get rid of positionals.

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What does this have to do with positionals?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you don't want a dedicated knockback-prevention button, then there should be a minimum range on gapclosers so that you're not forced to burn them for potency.

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Is "forced" really the right word, though? We're talking a typical difference of 20-40 potency per charge... versus at least a global's worth of uptime, if not however long is required to get a Raise and then 25% of your potency for 90s thereafter.

If the dedicated knockback-prevention button weren't there, it'd more than fair game to ask that the players advantaged by having a gap-closer think some 30 seconds in advance to utilize that otherwise free advantage.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

[Positionals are] useless as is anyway. Been mathed to equate to less than 1% of your damage on 3 of the 4 jobs that require them. Then with the super focus on accessibility and simplicity as well another reason why it wouldn't be surprising if they went... as much as I may hate that focus. I would happily see positional get canned.

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Note the bold, though. They certainly weren't useless until they were deliberately devalued to next to nothing.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Not rewarding and already at a point where more and more content completely nullifies them anyway.

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Here, too, consider: Neither the current reward nor the current accommodation have anything to do with the fundamental design of positionals.

Take this shocking notion, for instance. What if... bear with me here.. we didn't have bosses leap to where their entire rear sectors are inaccessible, instead being even just a quarter of their hitbox deeper into the arena, for instance? Or, in the cases where, thematically, they need to leave the platform entirely and thus cannot be accessed by rear or flank, that they become positional-less over that period only. Huge, fundamental change, I know, but it's just a hypothetical.

I mention this only because we often seem more eager than we should to conflate a poorly managed (or, less euphemistically, sabotaged) situation with a poor design. If it a gameplay loop we are discussing, then we ought to be looking it as a gameplay loop, determine whether it's worth having or not, and either reward and situate it appropriately, or remove. We should not remove it just because it is not presently sufficiently rewarding or situated.

In the end, though, I think the idea of positionals is honestly going to come down to one thing: Do the people who actually enjoy melee DPS, for their gameplay, enjoy the added business of positionals? If not, we should see if there are any parts within the broader mechanic that are responsible for the dislike, and if there are any parts that would be missed.

But, imo, the last thing we need is even more gameplay being gutted in the name of accessibility towards those who had little to no prior interest in the affected role (e.g., "would-be" tanks who don't actually enjoy managing enemy positioning, appropriately timing mitigation, or healer-interplay, etc., anyways). The actual invested/interested party should be at the center of any decision to remove (or keep, for that matter) a given mechanic or its related area of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

My management... well a this point they could go the way ofntp and just get rid of mp entirely they've totally andbutterly killed the concept of resource management.

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Again, that it has been murdered has no bearing on its fundamental design. The same question stands: Do we want it (A) not dead (revitalized, polished, and meaningful), or (B) gone?

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

what if jump isn't up? shields weren't put up in time? manipulation is on cd cuz i fat fingered it?

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Every single one of those things apply also to Arm's Length and Surecast. Those skills that are already parts of our kit just don't also require an extra button of (arguably) bloat.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

mistakes happen and this allows everyone a "get out of jail free" card?

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But, again, is that a good thing? Is a "your mistake doesn't matter (as long as you use this otherwise useless thing)" good design?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But, again, is that a good thing? Is a "your mistake doesn't matter (as long as you use this otherwise useless thing)" good design?

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I'd say it avoids ticking some people off, so yes.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Every single one of those things apply also to Arm's Length and Surecast. Those skills that are already parts of our kit just don't also require an extra button of (arguably) bloat.


But, again, is that a good thing? Is a "your mistake doesn't matter (as long as you use this otherwise useless thing)" good design?

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I'd say it avoids ticking some people off, so yes.

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Wait, how is that a decent reason, though?

Having to follow a rotation doubtless ticks some people off. Yet we don't give it a nullification button. Nor, if an ability had been given by which to prevent the need to optimize one's sequence of weaponskills or spells for a time, would we protect it absolutely just as to "avoid ticking some people off."

A fight mechanic bugged and was therefore far easier than it should be, even if only part of the time or under rarely-known conditions? Nope, can't fix that; it might tick some people off.

Since they removed the aggro reducer from lucid dreaming i Always found the ability a bit stupid.. i mean.. It Is a Button that doesnt interact with anything.. why they cant Just increase mp regeneration to match the use of LD so i free a space from my hotbar. I mean, its not an ability that require skill or wathever, maybe the only real utility Is After you hot ress but still.. i think mana shift was way more fun an rewarding to use

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Wait, how is that a decent reason, though?

Having to follow a rotation doubtless ticks some people off. Yet we don't give it a nullification button. Nor, if an ability had been given by which to prevent the need to optimize one's sequence of weaponskills or spells for a time, would we protect it absolutely just as to "avoid ticking some people off."

A fight mechanic bugged and was therefore far easier than it should be, even if only part of the time or under rarely-known conditions? Nope, can't fix that; it might tick some people off.

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Does it have to be a "decent" reason?

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Does it have to be a "decent" reason?

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Generally, yes.

• X has opportunity costs (limiting the complexity available to job kits and the timings available to certain mechanics and, indirectly, thereby the cohesion available to said kits and the designs available to boss fights.
• X diminishes the value of previous opportunity costs (the mechanics in the given fight designs and their relevance to job kits themselves).
• X obfuscates issues of quality to the detriment of said quality (greatly reducing incentive to make job kits more cohesive, unique, impactful, or the like and, indirectly, likely costing us a degree of cohesion, impactfulness, or diversity in job kits).

Should X not require at least a decent reason for its presence?

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Originally Posted by Garten

I mean, its not an ability that require skill or wathever, maybe the only real utility Is After you hot ress but still.. i think mana shift was way more fun an rewarding to use

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Mana shift instead of Lucid would be better I think. Casters mostly MP self-sufficient, with shift there if someones pool needs boosting a bit to patch up some mistakes.

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I also agree with the basic proposition that if these buttons need to exist then they also need a bit more depth to them, something to make you think about when to use them.

The tank gap closers are definitely the most interesting of the "ignore mechanic" buttons because how you use them to maximize your DPS is affected by your own knowledge of the encounter. i.e. used during your burst window for direct damage or held until needed for a knockback to maintain uptime.

It's not even that I think Lucid Dreaming is actually a bad designed ability, but it was much meaningful before when healers actually had to pay attention to their mp pools - back when they had to use more GCDs for healing, and LD usage was very strategic. Nowadays you always have oGCD mp-less tools to heal available. Mp - might - only an issue if they have to chain rezzes back to back.

This kind of ties in with other stuff. I find positionals kind of weird to how the encounters are designed as a telegraph memory game. I really think that a positionals-heavy job like Monk is kind of misplaced, and even, what's the point again? Between True North and that new iteration of FoE, there's not even the need of a Monk to worry about positionals anymore - It's kind in the same place as Greased Lightning.

If positionals would be a must-have, they all should be at the level of a Ninja - relevant just for 1 or 2 actions. A monk could probably have other mechanics to make up for it, maybe something interesting and that resonated more with the fantasy of a combo-fighter.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

It's not even that I think Lucid Dreaming is actually a bad designed ability, but it was much meaningful before when healers actually had to pay attention to their mp pools - back when they had to use more GCDs for healing, and LD usage was very strategic.

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While I did find Lucid Dreaming's predecessors more bearable just due to MP feeling less of a pretense back then (despite those skills still watering them down and precluding more meaningful mechanical tie-ins), consider:

If you end up using more MP or all the more constantly over time, that only makes it all the more important to hit your MP-granting CD as quickly as possible (reducing any space for nuance).

Lucid Dreaming or its predecessors would only have that kind of attention to timing if they, say, returned a portion of missing MP (encouraging you to make expensive casts just prior, and to hold if your portion of missing MP will increase by more than the portion of CD for which you hold it), or had other timing-affecting effects bundled with it.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

This kind of ties in with other stuff. I find positionals kind of weird to how the encounters are designed as a telegraph memory game.

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My very anecdotal and subjective $0.02:

Positionals only really become all that interesting (rather than mere APM bumps with no additional button cost, though such are still enjoyable and, as far as blatant APM bumps go, well designed) in those very contexts of positional telegraphs and some degree of rotational flexibility.

:: If I do A and thus arrive at position X at time Z, I get hit and burden the healers. If I instead do B, altering slightly from my normal sequence, I'll instead arrive at position Y at time Z and be fine. That said, if I do B, then later on...

Such applies a fair deal of enjoyable complexity. It's for this reason that you saw so many Monks, for instance, so annoyed by the loss of Fracture and Touch of Death, as they not only granted positional-less GCDs every 18 | 30 seconds' time, respectively, but allowed for rotational adjustment at many SkS tiers.

New player here, just came over from that other MMO and what the OP is talking about is what I think is a major mistake the devs have made. I think its going to cause a lot of the new players like myself to eventually quit. The devs have mistaken complexity for depth of play. As near as I can tell a "simple" rotation in this game is about 10 or more abilities. Thats kinda insane.

The long rotations are fun, finding the best way to execute them in the various encounters is one of the foundations of the combat system, it's like combining playing an instrument with a game of dodgeball. I personally think it's great and have no desire to change the fundamentals.

A lot of the extra-rotational abilities kind of suck though, the ones that just sit on the sidelines waiting to be pressed on cooldown to do 'the thing' with no thought.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I did find Lucid Dreaming's predecessors more bearable just due to MP feeling less of a pretense back then (despite those skills still watering them down and precluding more meaningful mechanical tie-ins), consider:

If you end up using more MP or all the more constantly over time, that only makes it all the more important to hit your MP-granting CD as quickly as possible (reducing any space for nuance).

Lucid Dreaming or its predecessors would only have that kind of attention to timing if they, say, returned a portion of missing MP (encouraging you to make expensive casts just prior, and to hold if your portion of missing MP will increase by more than the portion of CD for which you hold it), or had other timing-affecting effects bundled with it.


My very anecdotal and subjective $0.02:

Positionals only really become all that interesting (rather than mere APM bumps with no additional button cost, though such are still enjoyable and, as far as blatant APM bumps go, well designed) in those very contexts of positional telegraphs and some degree of rotational flexibility.

:: If I do A and thus arrive at position X at time Z, I get hit and burden the healers. If I instead do B, altering slightly from my normal sequence, I'll instead arrive at position Y at time Z and be fine. That said, if I do B, then later on...

Such applies a fair deal of enjoyable complexity. It's for this reason that you saw so many Monks, for instance, so annoyed by the loss of Fracture and Touch of Death, as they not only granted positional-less GCDs every 18 | 30 seconds' time, respectively, but allowed for rotational adjustment at many SkS tiers.

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This is also why I'm going to miss Egi Assaults and Further Ruin management (and to a lesser degree Aero on AST), as they fit the same context through a caster lens. When can I afford to hardcast and how do I squeeze the most I can out of Phoenix so that I can align as many of these stacks with Bahamut as possible?

Charge actions in general also open up a lot of flexibility. If major raid cooldowns got the same treatment we could do fights where the major 'burst' windows are shifted around all over the place to account for mechanics, without sacrificing the casual player's ability to manage them or just go ham till they get the basic rotation down. It's one of the core things that makes NIN so engaging in a general melee uptime context. It's also why I wish we had abilities that started partially charged (Ideally with less than maximum stacks, Lilies would be an example of this), and that SE would implement some kind of buff that keeps those actions from ticking till we start a pull in any instanced content. Thereby allowing SE to swap the 'can only be executed while in combat' lines on most skills to 'cannot be used while Preparing for Battle'.

Because it's part of a skill check. While on paper, its really simple, as a caster, pop that CD every 60s for +MP. I can attest that sometimes I forget and let it slip..

Like spell interruption, just kick/pummel or X, or stun. It's just a button.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

Because it's part of a skill check. While on paper, its really simple, as a caster, pop that CD every 60s for +MP. I can attest that sometimes I forget and let it slip..

Like spell interruption, just kick/pummel or X, or stun. It's just a button.

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Every button added is a "skill check" of some sort. That doesn't make that check significant, however, let alone worth its real estate.

Consider what skills we have pruned over time, from Power Surge to Largesse, etc.. Lucid Dreaming, now short of its enmity reduction, is worth its space less, even, than either of those, as at least Power Surge had the possibility for mis-spending and Largesse created optimization windows.

100% agreed.

This is most egregious for MP management, where skill choice is replaced with "slam these buttons off cooldown."

Not to mention that most DPS roles have no real primary resource constraint at all.

And cancelling knockbacks as another example is just nullifying an interesting mechanic. I could see having a "oh no" button on a very long cooldown to recover from fumbles, but reliably nullifying mechanics is boring.

Mana management? Can hurt if you’re not proactive in your lucid cooldown. It’s just an arbitrary thing to see if you’re paying attention.

Knockbacks? I’ve never been fond of them as a mechanic in general and there are certain times when a knockback will ignore the prevention cooldown anyway. I’d rather they either make all knockbacks able to be negated or none of them do it’s consistent.

Positionals? Well I’m outspoken on this one, true north is a bandaid for a symptom. We’d be better off without positionals and I’m genuinely surprised they didn’t scrap them for EW. I was so sure it was finally going to happen and they’d fix their melee design at last.

Role skills would be an excellent target for button pruning though. It’s not a bad idea to start getting rid of a few.

For MP management, I would really prefer they make mana potions more in-demand. I know it doesn't sound appealing to rely on consumables, but it helps drive the player economy and that adds depth to the game and game world.