GNB Mit

I'm just wondering how you all feel about the current state of GNB mitigation. I think its lackluster and feels weak. What do you think?

Its mitigation is more sustained than other tanks I feel. A fast recharge flexible "weak" mitigation with Heart of Stone, paired with a fairly quick recharge Hot. His combo gives a bit of heal and shield too.
Camouflage is pretty decent, 10%+increased parry rate is especially useful against packs.
Nebula (if it's the name, can't remember) is fairly standard now, and Heart of light is basically the same as the DRK thing. It doesn't have has strong of a damage reduction or heal as the others (PLD Clemency, WAR lifesteal, DRK best CD in the game) but it still works pretty well.

Camo should have had 20% chance to dodge instead of this 10% parry. Otherwise GNb's kit is fine.

It feels pretty damn good to me. I feel like a lot of people sleep on GNB mitigation or aren't using their cooldowns properly.

GNB is the 3rd place in terms of mitigation when comparing to other tanks, but thats by no means bad. Camo being an extra CD, with the parry element is nice especially on packs where most damage is physical, aurora is as strong as an equilibrium/unbuffed clem only over time, and an argument can be made for HoS being stronger than shelltron despite having less % mit due to the nuances of how shelltron works (nullifying passive block, overwritten by crits, doesnt stack with parry, not immediately available)

Overall whilst you're not almost immortal like WAR, or very beefy like drk with TBN, youre by no means squishy, and ironically have better mitigation than the tank with the shield.

its perfectly fine. having 4 CDs that actually mitigate all types damage is nice,Brutal shell little shield is also pretty handy too some bosses it can take a couple of Autos to break.

Aurora is the weak link that its better as an aggro tool than a sustain I do hope it gets some sort of buff that makes it a little more useful like a heal buff like Nature minne

GNB is the tank that get's the better DPS at the cost of mitigation. Now with that said I find it can be the most mitigation heavy tank in the game next to PLD. I find myself constantly cycling rampart, camouflage, nebula, aurora, heart of stone. You can quite literally have a mitigation going at all times, and you should since GNB's rotation isn't stupid tight like PLD is.

GNB damage is high and mitigation is supplemented by it's oGCD's being another rotation in and of itself.

Other tanks can get away with this as like PLD. The rotation is so strict to fit in your goring blade, Circle of Scorn, Spirits within, Attonements that you only have time to throw your mitigations in weaves. PLD's opener is literally it's rotation and you have to keep it going through a whole fight. During PLD burst phase you have to weave in your Sheltrons with Holy Spirits/circles and Sprits, scorns and not miss your Confiteor.

GNB to me has a much looser rotation outside of your burst and allows for filler during it's burst phase i.e. rampart, aurora, HoS, camo, nebula. But you have to keep that mitigation train rolling, which is where the GNB challenge sets. I always start a fight with Rampart (get the mitigation train rolling), Bloodfest (setup for burst and Burst Strike finisher), Rough Divide or Lightning Shot (depends on pull), into No Mercy.

Once you pop your No Mercy you better have 1-2 cartridges, spam your DOT's, Blasting Zone, Continuation burst, finish with Burst Strike. Rampart should last the whole opener then it's back into your 1,2,3 combo with Burst Strikes for effect. Once Rampart falls off it's Aurora, heart of stone (best during 1,2,3 combo for Brutal Shell buff), Camo. I TRY to save Nebula for tank busters if I can, but sometimes you need to use it. GNB just has two rotations...it's attack rotations and it's mitigation rotation.

I seem to survive well enough with proper CD usage, though I will never claim to use them perfectly all the time. Could they use a little more? Maybe. But I think instead of more actions they need to make certain actions a bit stronger like Aurora or make Superbolide less anxiety inducing.

GNB has acceptable mitigation in raids, bad mitigation in dungeon. For those wondering what criteria I'm comparing it to, it's DRK and WAR.

GNB needs to be babied in dungeons because aurora is just not very good with it's weak HoT, and no way to sustain itself other than putting on standard mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

GNB has acceptable mitigation in raids, bad mitigation in dungeon. For those wondering what criteria I'm comparing it to, it's DRK and WAR.

GNB needs to be babied in dungeons because aurora is just not very good with it's weak HoT, and no way to sustain itself other than putting on standard mitigation.

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Yeah, this is sort of why I made this thread. I can tank paradigm and 8 man's without really feeling like I'm taking dmg but you do a gauntlet or something and you're popping everything constantly and picking your teeth up afterwards. I would like to see HoS last for at least 10 seconds, remove aurora (because the hot tick is ridiculously small when I'm running around with 208k) and see a beefier camouflage. Keep the parry and make it 20% dmg reduction.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

Yeah, this is sort of why I made this thread. I can tank paradigm and 8 man's without really feeling like I'm taking dmg but you do a gauntlet or something and you're popping everything constantly and picking your teeth up afterwards. I would like to see HoS last for at least 10 seconds, remove aurora (because the hot tick is ridiculously small when I'm running around with 208k) and see a beefier camouflage. Keep the parry and make it 20% dmg reduction.

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Aurora is a minimum 60k+ heal in good gear, more with crits. It is the equivalent or wars equilibrium in healing, its not a small amount. Making camo have that change you suggested would make camo way too strong, it'd be stronger than rampart even though it is bonus mitigation. You should always be cycling your cooldowns in dungeons anyway, and if you have 200k health your gear is good enough that if you mitigate properly you should barely need healing in dungeons anyway.

Bro, aurora sucks. Period. Equilibrium has the benefit of giving you all the healing when you need it at that very moment. A HoT has to wait to receive it's total benefit. Also, equilibrium can be buffed when used with ToB.

Point being, I wouldn't even say Equilibrium is great healing on it's own, let alone aurora.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Bro, aurora sucks. Period. Equilibrium has the benefit of giving you all the healing when you need it at that very moment. A HoT has to wait to receive it's total benefit. Also, equilibrium can be buffed when used with ToB.

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They're different skills. Regens aren't bad, you don't have to wait until you're low on HP to use Aurora. Use it when you're high on HP or early in a pull and it's just as good because it smooths out incoming damage. Plus it can be used on other party members.
Thrill isn't up for every Equilibrium.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Point being, I wouldn't even say Equilibrium is great healing on it's own, let alone aurora.

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Well, you'd be wrong. It all adds up to reduce healer GCDs spent on healing.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Bro, aurora sucks. Period. Equilibrium has the benefit of giving you all the healing when you need it at that very moment. A HoT has to wait to receive it's total benefit. Also, equilibrium can be buffed when used with ToB.

Point being, I wouldn't even say Equilibrium is great healing on it's own, let alone aurora.

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Aurora only sucks as much as the people using it. Put it another way, lets take that 60k number i mentioned before, that means aurora is essentially "mitigating" 60k worth of damage provided your healers arnt overhealing you like idiots. In order for a rampart to mitigate 60k worth of damage on a 200k hp tank you would need to take 1.5* your healthbar in damage while the 20% mitigation from rampart is up. Outside of some nasty split busters which you arnt invulning for some reason you arnt going to take that much damage. Provided you have a remotely competent healer, its nothing to sniff at, let alone suggest removing like the person i responded to suggested.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Aurora only sucks as much as the people using it. Put it another way, lets take that 60k number i mentioned before, that means aurora is essentially "mitigating" 60k worth of damage provided your healers arnt overhealing you like idiots. In order for a rampart to mitigate 60k worth of damage on a 200k hp tank you would need to take 1.5* your healthbar in damage while the 20% mitigation from rampart is up. Outside of some nasty split busters which you arnt invulning for some reason you arnt going to take that much damage. Provided you have a remotely competent healer, its nothing to sniff at, let alone suggest removing like the person i responded to suggested.

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I will say this from healing many gunbreakers on my WHM alt, aurora is not noticeable and I would gladly see it go away for changes to HoS or Camo.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Well, you'd be wrong. It all adds up to reduce healer GCDs spent on healing.

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Me? Wrong? Impossible.

Anyways, not really. WAR gets so much healing from NF, I could go with or without it and not feel much a difference. Its good because by the time I used it, things are mostly dead and the healing feels more notable then. You cannot say that about aurora.

Gunbreaker feels fine to me & Aurora is good.

Would be nice if Heart could transfer your Aurora as well as your Brutal Shell. Dodge instead of parry on camouflage would be nice too, and probably fit better with a skill called camouflage.

Nah, keep the parry rate on camouflage. Evade rate is useless on bosses, normally. Evade could be good during magic pulls, but camo already gives -10% dmg taken anyway.

The only reason GNB's mit feels weak is because its invuln has an opportunity cost, and most people don't understand how regens are supposed to be used.

It's not talked about much, because it's far from ideal, but Brutal Shell being on the second hit of the standard combo actually lets GNB heal itself every other GCD if you really need to heal. Like it sucks, but I've won fights that way when the healer goes down. Pop Aurora on the DPS that either needs it or I suspect will not get hit to make it worthwhile, and then Keen > Brutal spam.

Also, Heart of Stone is better than Sheltron by a country mile, because you can apply it to other people, and it takes your Brutal Shell and puts it onto them as well. Like, sure, PLD has other skills in place that share the same resource as Sheltron, but one's on a long cooldown, and the other needs the PLD to have another CD up to really make ends meet.

I generally prefer other tanks for dungeons though, because GNB's AOE rotation is boring AF, and I prefer the gameplay of the other tanks. HoH has me burnt out on feeling great when doing the Continuation combo, but it's still cool AF. Though in some cases the shield from Brutal Shell is really really nice, especially when it prevents a damage based knockback by itself.

Non food buffed with 2649 tenacity, aurora is ticking between 6800 and 11k. It ticks 5 times so you're looking at about 60k over 18 seconds. Will it keep you up? Nope. Will it save your healers mana? Nope. Will it give you survivability on a group pull? Nope because everyone is hitting you harder then it ticks for and faster. It's shit and I'd rather have a beefier camo.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

Non food buffed with 2649 tenacity, aurora is ticking between 6800 and 11k. It ticks 5 times so you're looking at about 60k over 18 seconds. Will it keep you up? Nope. Will it save your healers mana? Nope. Will it give you survivability on a group pull? Nope because everyone is hitting you harder then it ticks for and faster. It's shit and I'd rather have a beefier camo.

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Nah bro you're clearly mistaken, these armchair experts obviously know more about the tanks you healed or the jobs I've tanked as. 60k so significant brah, look, it's 60k, what do you mean you're not wowwed by that amount? That's like 27% of my hp brah, so much HP wow! If we do not like it, well, that speaks more to our incompetence in casual dungeon content cause we clearly don't know how to use our cool downs.




Get real, guys. You're not fooling anyone but yourselves.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Nah bro you're clearly mistaken, these armchair experts obviously know more about the tanks you healed or the jobs I've tanked as. 60k so significant brah, look, it's 60k, what do you mean you're not wowwed by that amount? That's like 27% of my hp brah, so much HP wow! If we do not like it, well, that speaks more to our incompetence in casual dungeon content cause we clearly don't know how to use our cool downs.




Get real, guys. You're not fooling anyone but yourselves.

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I get the argument that the amount it heals in the duration of xyz content is significant but what's funny is that number at the end of xyz content compared to healer output and heals received would actually show everyone how terrible it is.

You guys make a really compelling argument at making sure nobody wants to listen to you.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

You guys make a really compelling argument at making sure nobody wants to listen to you.

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Then don't. Enjoy your aurora and 60k total hp healed, while I'll be enjoying my spammable shield and on demand bene. Hell, paladin even has the superior invuln and clemency should they desire it.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Then don't. Enjoy your aurora and 60k total hp healed, while I'll be enjoying my spammable shield and on demand bene. Hell, paladin even has the superior invuln and clemency should they desire it.

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It's all about balance. If Aurora is bad, it can be buffed.
I often was happy to have it in overworld and frontline stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

It's all about balance. If Aurora is bad, it can be buffed.
I often was happy to have it in overworld and frontline stuff.

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The only tanks ever getting buffed mid-expansion are Warrior.
PLD gets all the TLC it needs on launch, GNB gets its blade dulled, and DRK gets another rotten tomato thrown at it.

Alright then.
So what do we do ? :) What do we discuss ?
Go on, say something that isn't "everything is terrible. The devs don't listen to us. They always play favorite. No use talking".

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Originally Posted by RinaB

Non food buffed with 2649 tenacity, aurora is ticking between 6800 and 11k. It ticks 5 times so you're looking at about 60k over 18 seconds. Will it keep you up? Nope. Will it save your healers mana? Nope. Will it give you survivability on a group pull? Nope because everyone is hitting you harder then it ticks for and faster. It's shit and I'd rather have a beefier camo.

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It should tick 6 times not 5, and as I showed earlier that 60k healing makes it more effective than a rampart when used effectively, which part of that maths dont you get Im happy to explain again. It objectively does provide survivability in a group pull so im not sure where youre getting that from.

Edit: looking at camos numbers and aurora, to have a "beefier camo" in exchange for aurora youd have to buff the shit out of camo (like buffing it to 20% still probably wouldnt hack it due to the uptime difference) at which point youre creating a situation where gnb could have more cooldown power than it necessarily deserves when it comes to dealing with TB's.

@hierro:
In conjunction with my healers, and by planning out auroa uses i can go pretty much the whole section I tank in e12s without receiving a gcd other than maybe a regen from my healers. Also again, im not sure if you saw that quick calculation I showed earlier, but healing 27% of your HP is actually more mitigation than a rampart will give you most of the time, and its on a lower cooldown, can you dispute that, id love to see your reasoning.

I don't know why you guys keep saying "60k".

It's only 60k if every tick of it crits.

The reason aurora is "bad" is because HoTs, and DoTs, exist to be higher return but over longer duration.

Aurora isn't stronger than anything other than small-pack Abyssal Drain. It's equal to equilibrium, but part and parcels over 18s.

No one would say "Regen is good" if it was 700 instead of 1200.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

@hierro:
In conjunction with my healers, and by planning out auroa uses i can go pretty much the whole section I tank in e12s without receiving a gcd other than maybe a regen from my healers. Also again, im not sure if you saw that quick calculation I showed earlier, but healing 27% of your HP is actually more mitigation than a rampart will give you most of the time, and its on a lower cooldown, can you dispute that, id love to see your reasoning.

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Bro.
Bruh.
Brah.
Breh.

Under what context do you think I'm talking about? Please, divinate. Is it raids, where I said it's mitigation is perfectly serviceable, or is it dungeons where I specifically make the rant about?

This may require putting on your thinking cap.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Bro.
Bruh.
Brah.
Breh.

Under what context do you think I'm talking about? Please, divinate. Is it raids, where I said it's mitigation is perfectly serviceable, or is it dungeons where I specifically make the rant about?

This may require putting on your thinking cap.

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I missed you saying the raid part, ill admit that, the rest of it still applies to what you said about dungeons which youre still ignoring, 27% heal is more impactful (especially in dungeons where things are generally pretty weak) than using actual mitigation sometimes, you were also saying it is "bad", i still dont think it is bad in dungeons, and what i said still applies to that, most of the time in dungeons your health drops so slow that a 27% heal is still impactful provided folks arn't overhealing. I still dont see why just the fact that it is over time makes it bad. Also no need to be an ass about it lol, we're just talking about game balance. Id still love to see your reasoning as to why free 27% healing is bad when that free 27% is offering more mitigation than your other cds when used properly.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I don't know why you guys keep saying "60k".

It's only 60k if every tick of it crits.

The reason aurora is "bad" is because HoTs, and DoTs, exist to be higher return but over longer duration.

Aurora isn't stronger than anything other than small-pack Abyssal Drain. It's equal to equilibrium, but part and parcels over 18s.

No one would say "Regen is good" if it was 700 instead of 1200.

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I agree with your reasoning if we were talking about GCD HoTs, they need to be higher potency than other options to justify their existance, when it comes to oGCD hots though I disagree, theyre essentially free at that point with only the caveat that they dont heal immediatly. If regen was 700 instead of 1200, but it was an off global people would say its good cos its free.

Jobs skill sets aren't designed around casual content (dungeons). They are so easy and you barely take any damage doing double pulls that cooldowns are hardly needed at all. If you are struggling in dungeons, it's the low dps not killing things quick enough, and not the lack of mitigation.

GNB Aurora is actually an average cooldown. Its not top tier, but its not trash either and anyone who thinks it's bad doesn't understand how to play GNB optimally.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I missed you saying the raid part, ill admit that, the rest of it still applies to what you said about dungeons which youre still ignoring, 27% heal is more impactful (especially in dungeons where things are generally pretty weak) than using actual mitigation sometimes, you were also saying it is "bad", i still dont think it is bad in dungeons, and what i said still applies to that, most of the time in dungeons your health drops so slow that a 27% heal is still impactful provided folks arn't overhealing. I still dont see why just the fact that it is over time makes it bad. Also no need to be an ass about it lol, we're just talking about game balance. Id still love to see your reasoning as to why free 27% healing is bad when that free 27% is offering more mitigation than your other cds when used properly.

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I will gladly tell you why it's bad in dungeons. Earlier I mentioned my own personal standard, DRK & WAR. Once per big pull, I can use aurora and potentially heal up to 27%. Aside from this healing, GNB has nothing else aside from traditional mitigation that all tanks have, and camo.

However, as DRK I can use TBN every 15 seconds and that's 25% hp everytime, and STILL have abyssal drain at my disposal which easily beats out aurora in a big pull. As WAR, well, I have bene basically that I can use a couple times per pull via NF+CC, and this doesn't even mention ToB+Eq.

Compared to the aforementioned, aurora is bad. GNB has no real sustain. It requires attention, more than any other tank purely out of the virtue of having less than all the others in terms of dungeon mitigation.

Also, if a bunch of things are hitting me for about 5k per hit, rampart reduces it to 4k a hit. If I have 8 targets, that's about 8k hp that I saved per round of hits. After four rounds of hits, I've mitigated more than aurora, and that's after like 12 seconds and rampart can still mitigate more, I don't understand how aurora could do more than rampart to mitigate a pull.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I will gladly tell you why it's bad in dungeons. Earlier I mentioned my own personal standard, DRK & WAR. Once per big pull, I can use aurora and potentially heal up to 27%. Aside from this healing, GNB has nothing else aside from traditional mitigation that all tanks have, and camo.

However, as DRK I can use TBN every 15 seconds and that's 25% hp everytime, and STILL have abyssal drain at my disposal which easily beats out aurora in a big pull. As WAR, well, I have bene basically that I can use a couple times per pull via NF+CC, and this doesn't even mention ToB+Eq.

Compared to the aforementioned, aurora is bad. GNB has no real sustain. It requires attention, more than any other tank purely out of the virtue of having less than all the others in terms of dungeon mitigation.

Also, if a bunch of things are hitting me for about 5k per hit, rampart reduces it to 4k a hit. If I have 8 targets, that's about 8k hp that I saved per round of hits. After four rounds of hits, I've mitigated more than aurora, and that's after like 12 seconds and rampart can still mitigate more, I don't understand how aurora could do more than rampart to mitigate a pull.

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Okay so this is the foundation where we are disagreeing then. I wasnt talking here about comparisons to other classes i was talking about wether aurora is an intrinsically bad skill, not is it bad compared to NF or TBN, because i established page 1 that GNB is worse than WAR and DRK and better than PLD. Being worse than something else does not make a thing intrinsically bad it just makes it worse than the other thing. In a vacuum GNB is not bad at dealing with dungeons, no tank is, and in a vacuum aurora is an effective heal over time. And with proper cd rotations you can still heal a gnb through a dungeon with no more attention needed than the other tanks (because dungeons are balanced around the very low end).

EDIT: on the topic of "less than all the others" im still going to say its better than pld, cos if your pld is having to spam clem somethings very wrong, and outside of clem, pld has less to use.

On your final paragraph, again i refer you to the maths not anedote. On a 200k hp even if we were to say that aurora only healed 40k, you would need to take your entire healhbars worth of damage while rampart is up for the rampart to mitigate 40k (200k*0.2=40k). Now it might just be the folks i run with, but outside of maybe the large pull at the start of pag, i dont remember trashpacks dealing my whole healthbar 20s, but id happily go and check.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I agree with your reasoning if we were talking about GCD HoTs, they need to be higher potency than other options to justify their existance, when it comes to oGCD hots though I disagree, theyre essentially free at that point with only the caveat that they dont heal immediatly. If regen was 700 instead of 1200, but it was an off global people would say its good cos its free.

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Except if Regen was OGCD, then so would be cure.

The cost is equivalent to other healing abilities - OGCD and 60s.

Instant return always beats return over time, and this is why return over time is tuned to higher total sums, because it has to be. Aurora would be better if it was instant return and the same strength.

Aurora is serviceable, but so is One Nuke + One DoT.

Here are some examples of more thematic and/or better Auroras

a 1200 Potency shield.

600 heal / 600 potency shield

1800 potency HoT

For 18 seconds, a portion of all damage dealt is stored. at the end of 18 seconds or upon reactivation, heal for that amount.

"---------------. ---- shield for that amount."

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Instant return always beats return over time, and this is why return over time is tuned to higher total sums, because it has to be. Aurora would be better if it was instant return and the same strength.

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I like a lot of those suggestions, but I would like to focus on this statement. This is not necessarily true, a HoT has the advantage of more consistency over an instantaneous heal through crit rolling. An instaneous heal will have higher highs as it only needs to roll a crit once, but a HoT will have multiple chances to get crit rolls across its duration. Given enough time theoretically they'll end up healing the same amount, but if you hit an equilibrium for example an it doesn't crit thats it until your next equilibrium, whereas with a HoT whilst its less likely to get the full amount, it'll more likely get more than the lowest amount. Theres also niche scenarious, for example a small trickle of damage when you're on high health can be covered by a HoT with little to no overheal, wheres a burst heal could overshoot. Again small things but its not as black and white as presented.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I like a lot of those suggestions, but I would like to focus on this statement. This is not necessarily true, a HoT has the advantage of more consistency over an instantaneous heal through crit rolling. An instaneous heal will have higher highs as it only needs to roll a crit once, but a HoT will have multiple chances to get crit rolls across its duration. Given enough time theoretically they'll end up healing the same amount, but if you hit an equilibrium for example an it doesn't crit thats it until your next equilibrium, whereas with a HoT whilst its less likely to get the full amount, it'll more likely get more than the lowest amount. Theres also niche scenarious, for example a small trickle of damage when you're on high health can be covered by a HoT with little to no overheal, wheres a burst heal could overshoot. Again small things but its not as black and white as presented.

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I'd define these are pretty rare circumstances to consider, but fair enough.

Aurora being closer to an effetive 1400 HoT is still far below the margin I'd want it at to remain a HoT, and if Aurora can outpace or match the incoming damage, you're literally in zero danger. Natural regen and Brutal Shell will cover you until the heat death of the universe.

Whenever people have to explain in great detail why something is good and break it down to the microscopic level to justify its existence it's usually because they're delusional and said thing is shit. Aurora sucks and it either needs to have potency increase or buff camo and get rid of it. Camo is weak as hell for a class specific mitigator especially if you want to compare it to TBN.

I would like to see them reduce the regen cooldown to about the same as N.Flash on WAR or TDN on DRK. If it is the same, then maybe just a touch faster? Or increase the regen potency.

Maybe another tool that reflects all types of damage for 15 seconds.

Heart of Stone is the TBN, NF/ Raw Intuition equivalent, which has similar cooldown. Aurora shares the same cooldown as Equilibrium, it's equivalent.

Also reflect in pve outside of Eureka and Bozja, would be pretty busted, so no thanks.