(Opinion)Monks in Shadowbringer feels broken...

(Please read the entire post...I DO NOT WANT TO REMOVE MONK POSITIONALS. Only Monks wonky positional dancing in comparison to other jobs positionals)

So for the main stay of playing in the earlier parts of FF14, my main was monk. Even with Stormblood, my main still remained Monk. Yet after being gone for 2-3 years I feel like SE has systematically completely flubbed this Job. I'll Explain.

Even with all the wonky positional aside(which I agree is off putting in comparison to other Melee...seriously SE, 7 years and still positional dancing?)I feel like every other melee in FF14 has gotten something to grow their arsenal. Dragoon got another attack for their rotation to become a 5 button combo.(cool) Ninja got new ninjutsu to use.(Make sense) Samurai is just Samurai. and Monk got what? A new Chakra AOE? 2 abilities only useful with downtime/transition?

Now many can disagree with my upcoming opinions but here is what I see are key issues with Monk:

1. Get rid of the positional dancing. No other melee has to shift that many times to do their rotation. Even with the advent of Riddle of Earth, all SE did is add another button in a already heavy button bloat Job they need to spam to even be competitive to other melee jobs that do not have this problem.

2. Why do we still have so many stances? Why does Earth Stance even exist when it is completely arbitrary on the very few times you will even use it? Even Fists of the Wind feels like less progressive in comparison to other jobs when we already have Shoulder Tackle for gap closers.

To me, these two problems if fixed could easily make Monk better. I understand there will always be "positionals" like every melee in this game has...but nowhere near the wonkiness of Monk. I hope with Endwalker, Monk gets to a better place and I hope to see everyone in 6.0!

i agree on monk getting no new skills that arent nearly useful as other melees. honestly SE should just remove all positionals in the game because its boring and not really engaging mechanic.

MNK is getting a large rework with EW. Wether they fix the issues the class has we will just have to wait and see

Speak for yourself, at the moment Monk's fast pace (what you call spammy/bloated) and positional are the only thing I find interesting from the selection of DPS jobs. Your grand ideas would destroy what people who actually play Monk like about it. Please don't.

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Originally Posted by Unsung_Wanderer

Speak for yourself, at the moment Monk's fast pace (what you call spammy/bloated) and positional are the only thing I find interesting from the selection of DPS jobs. Your grand ideas would destroy what people who actually play Monk like about it. Please don't.

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Yeah, I actually found monk more fun to play as a melee player. I switched to it at the start of the tier. Only recently switched back to sam just because muscle memory makes it easier for me.

Positional dancing is actually why I enjoy MNK so much. Planning my next positional movement so that I avoid AoE dominates a lot of my focus but that's the entire point.

The stances are there for class fantasy, but it's an MMO so obviously people will only pick the one that does damage.

Fists of Wind was used as the main stance at level 80 because it unlocked GL4 until a patch got rid of Greased Lightning altogether, and they were able to get us to use a form of earth by making it a buff that reduces damage and eliminates positionals.

The main use for Fists of Wind otherwise is when moving between mob packs or for that extra movement to avoid an AoE, but you can use Sprint for that and it's much better.

I think it would be more effective to make Fists of Wind and Fists of Earth a temporary buff rather than a stance, so that they won't be ignored as much.

Jobs may be far from perfect, actually they're closer to a bad state rather than a good one.
But positionnals are MNK identity. If you remove the "cool things" from DRG, SAM and NIN, they would have barely anything to bother with due to their low number of positionnals.

Positionnals are the bane of casuals and the last bit of fun for veterans. As a casuals, you can ignore positionnals.

You feel like MNK is broken? Laughs in MCH
Boy, MCH has artifact actions and the job rotation doesn't change at all from 66 to 80 and there's so much more issues.
At most, MNK feels empty and barebone and you can only cross your finger that all job will finally feels as complete as DRG or BLM.

No to removing positionals. The job is already the easiest, most braindead melee job in the game, we don't need to dumb it down any further. If it's too complicated for you, that's fine, just play something else. Not every job needs to be adjusted to appeal to every player because that's impossible. Monk's positionals aren't hard, it's easy to minimize movement once you understand the rotation. So ultimately it's no harder than swapping to flank and rear the same as it is on dragoon or ninja.

Your other complaints, though, people have brought up multiple times in the DPS section of the forums. Monk does suffer from a bloat of irrelevant skills and over the expansions, they kept removing skills we do use while replacing them with skills we don't. So I'll give you that. But we also know that the skeleton of the job as it is now is just the framework that they will likely be building on come Endwalker. When they reworked the job, they could go about adding in more skills to a job that already had very few, so we'll just have to wait and see what they do.

Oh, another thread complaining about positionals. Thankfully the majority so far still appears to be in support of them or we might actually see them removed.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

MNK is getting a large rework with EW. Wether they fix the issues the class has we will just have to wait and see

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I've heard this a few times, can you give me a link to that?

Please don't remove positionals... the class feel so dull as it is atm and it's the only thing that really differenciate it from the melees
(they've been streamlining other classes they don't feel that different from one another *tanks*)
I hope they'll add an extra stuff to the monk cause it feels dry...

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Originally Posted by wereotter

No to removing positionals. The job is already the easiest, most braindead melee job in the game, we don't need to dumb it down any further. If it's too complicated for you, that's fine, just play something else. Not every job needs to be adjusted to appeal to every player because that's impossible. Monk's positionals aren't hard, it's easy to minimize movement once you understand the rotation. So ultimately it's no harder than swapping to flank and rear the same as it is on dragoon or ninja.

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I understand if you didn't read my entire post...may have been kinda long. But this is what I said at the bottom: "I understand there will always be "positionals" like every melee in this game has...but nowhere near the wonkiness of Monk. I hope with Endwalker, Monk gets to a better place and I hope to see everyone in 6.0!"

So I don't want to remove "positionals" but "positional dancing". Even Dragoon has a shift from rear to flank, but again nowhere near the extent of times Monk or any other melee job in this game. If you think positionals is what makes Monk unique and not things like "Dragoon jumps" or "Ninja does Ninjutsu" or "Samurai Combos" then I do not know what to say. Every class has positionals, and Monk having the most does not in my opinion make it unique...just less inventive mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

Please don't remove positionals... the class feel so dull as it is atm and it's the only thing that really differenciate it from the melees
(they've been streamlining other classes they don't feel that different from one another *tanks*)
I hope they'll add an extra stuff to the monk cause it feels dry...

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Why can noone read a actual post someone writes and actual misquote them or take them out of context?
I literally said "positional dancing" and that "positionals will always exist", yet the multitudes of readers here still wanted to read what they wanted to read and ignore what I actually wrote!

Amazing...

I

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I understand if you didn't read my entire post...may have been kinda long. But this is what I said at the bottom: "I understand there will always be "positionals" like every melee in this game has...but nowhere near the wonkiness of Monk. I hope with Endwalker, Monk gets to a better place and I hope to see everyone in 6.0!"

So I don't want to remove "positionals" but "positional dancing". Even Dragoon has a shift from rear to flank, but again nowhere near the extent of times Monk or any other melee job in this game. If you think positionals is what makes Monk unique and not things like "Dragoon jumps" or "Ninja does Ninjutsu" or "Samurai Combos" then I do not know what to say. Every class has positionals, and Monk having the most does not in my opinion make it unique...just less inventive mechanics.

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If you're playing the job right, monk has to move for positionals about as much as dragoon does.

I actually love MNK's positional rotation. Once you get it down it feels very natural to play, though at a certain point it becomes so attached to basic muscle memory that you can fall asleep doing it. When MNK gets it's rework I pray they don't take that core part of the job away.

[Opinion] Just go play Dancer or Whm or whatever braindead job you prefer. I enjoy having to think about my positionals and Monk is super fun to play because of that. The last thing we need is to dumb down the jobs that have a sliver of depth left even more to cater to the baby's that are to lazy to somethimes moves an inch to the left to hit the flank..

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Originally Posted by wereotter

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If you're playing the job right, monk has to move for positionals about as much as dragoon does.

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Are you kidding? Seriously?

Dragoon:
True Thrust-No Positional
Disembowel-No Positional
Vorpal Thrust-No Positional
The other 3 are rear or flank.

Monk:
Every weaponskill is a positional many times shifting from rear to flank when Dragoon's entire rotation for 5 combo is rear then another 5 flank!

And you wanna say that Dragoon has to do positional dance as much as Monk does?

Just wow!

MNK was reworked in 5.4 already. Where did you read that it was being re-worked again in Endwalker? I can't find that yet in any search online. It all points back to 5.4 patch.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I understand if you didn't read my entire post...may have been kinda long. But this is what I said at the bottom: "I understand there will always be "positionals" like every melee in this game has...but nowhere near the wonkiness of Monk. I hope with Endwalker, Monk gets to a better place and I hope to see everyone in 6.0!"

So I don't want to remove "positionals" but "positional dancing". Even Dragoon has a shift from rear to flank, but again nowhere near the extent of times Monk or any other melee job in this game. If you think positionals is what makes Monk unique and not things like "Dragoon jumps" or "Ninja does Ninjutsu" or "Samurai Combos" then I do not know what to say. Every class has positionals, and Monk having the most does not in my opinion make it unique...just less inventive mechanics.

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My answer was for Kunoz

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Are you kidding? Seriously?

Dragoon:
True Thrust-No Positional
Disembowel-No Positional
Vorpal Thrust-No Positional
The other 3 are rear or flank.

Monk:
Every weaponskill is a positional many times shifting from rear to flank when Dragoon's entire rotation for 5 combo is rear then another 5 flank!

And you wanna say that Dragoon has to do positional dance as much as Monk does?

Just wow!

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When you play dragoon you swap positionals for fang and claw and wheeling thrust and adjust your rotation accordingly. For monk, you do the same, you stay on the flank or rear as long as possible before you have to swap. So mid rotation might look like

FLANK
Dragon Kick
Twin Snakes

REAR
Demolish
Bootshine
True Strike

FLANK
Snap Punch
Dragon Kick
Twin Snakes
Snap Punch

REAR
Bootshine
True Strike
Demolish

So yes, it's a little more, but when monk can go 4 GCDs without moving that's only one fewer than dragoon has to go before moving. If you're moving back and forth for every move you do, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

My answer was for Kunoz

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Thank you for clarifying that by quoting. Take care.

I like having a class that actually requires some degree of dexterity to play well. I'd hate it if Monk lost any positional benefits to its weaponskills.

in the end it don't matter monk is among the least played classes in the game and that was before their changes too it's just a boring job why play monk when you can be a awesome samurai or dragoon

Having played MNK since 2.0, I definitely do want to see a good rework of it for Endwalker, but positionals are fun and should absolutely stay. I would like to see a more developed combo system firstly, and also more spirit focused abilities (like in FFT and FFE, my favorite iterations of the monk job).

I like playing MNK in PVP in its current form. There's no positional attacks to worry about, it's fast paced and there's a risk versus reward angle at play when getting into close range using a gap closer.

I won't comment on the PvE side of it, as I don't play it in PvE - but I hope any rework doesn't change things too drastically.

The quantity of positional weaponskills don't particularly feel like an issue. Granted I've been MNK since ARR, but it's second nature to just hit the positionals and it's not a hinderance.

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

in the end it don't matter monk is among the least played classes in the game and that was before their changes too it's just a boring job why play monk when you can be a awesome samurai or dragoon

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why should i go into weird fantasy equivalent dwarves when i could play a human?
i like fisting, and dragoon should be a tank class, but nobody is ready for the latter fact

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Originally Posted by Tactical

i like fisting, and dragoon should be a tank class, but nobody is ready for the latter fact

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uwu wats dis

I started as monk in ARR and it's still my most played class, but it really needs a MCH style rework at this point. Every expansion we lose moves that we gain back the next expansion with a new name, things like Greased Lightning lose meaning and are eventually removed, and the most baffling of all to me: the first class to get combo actions that change to more powerful versions when positionals are done correctly was not monk but DRAGOON.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

(Please read the entire post...I DO NOT WANT TO REMOVE MONK POSITIONALS. Only Monks wonky positional dancing in comparison to other jobs positionals)

So for the main stay of playing in the earlier parts of FF14, my main was monk. Even with Stormblood, my main still remained Monk. Yet after being gone for 2-3 years I feel like SE has systematically completely flubbed this Job. I'll Explain.

Even with all the wonky positional aside(which I agree is off putting in comparison to other Melee...seriously SE, 7 years and still positional dancing?)I feel like every other melee in FF14 has gotten something to grow their arsenal. Dragoon got another attack for their rotation to become a 5 button combo.(cool) Ninja got new ninjutsu to use.(Make sense) Samurai is just Samurai. and Monk got what? A new Chakra AOE? 2 abilities only useful with downtime/transition?

Now many can disagree with my upcoming opinions but here is what I see are key issues with Monk:

1. Get rid of the positional dancing. No other melee has to shift that many times to do their rotation. Even with the advent of Riddle of Earth, all SE did is add another button in a already heavy button bloat Job they need to spam to even be competitive to other melee jobs that do not have this problem.

2. Why do we still have so many stances? Why does Earth Stance even exist when it is completely arbitrary on the very few times you will even use it? Even Fists of the Wind feels like less progressive in comparison to other jobs when we already have Shoulder Tackle for gap closers.

To me, these two problems if fixed could easily make Monk better. I understand there will always be "positionals" like every melee in this game has...but nowhere near the wonkiness of Monk. I hope with Endwalker, Monk gets to a better place and I hope to see everyone in 6.0!

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Hmmmmm. EDITED because i need more time to think on this one.

- Okey yeah, I'm sorry, but i just don't know how to take this post seriously. :(

I'm sorry to ask this, and if this sounds like a dumb question; please forgive me, but... do you even have a level 80 Monk or a Monk at all? I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from when you say something like: "The Monk positional feels Wonky"

EDIT2: I only ask, because since ARR Beta, all I've ever played much in terms of Combat jobs, is the Monk, so it's really all i know when it comes to combat in this game; I've "tried out other Combat jobs, but i never liked them except for Monk- and the reason seemed always like a easy one for me, Monk just feels the most interesting to me. So coming from my mindset as a diehard Monk playing, i'm trying to understand what you mean by "Wonky"?

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

in the end it don't matter monk is among the least played classes in the game and that was before their changes too it's just a boring job why play monk when you can be a awesome samurai or dragoon

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MNK has an abysmally low play rate barely outdoing BLU because it's the worst treated job in the game for the past 2 expansions. Surprisingly, when a job is poorly designed, people don't want to play it. Outstanding logic, I know.

NIN and SMN aren't played very much either, but that's because they involve more effort to play than the far more popular RDM, SAM and DNC.

It's just how it will always be. If a class is complicated like MNK not having fixed combos like other classes and having positionals, it's immediately less simple than just playing an RDM. It's good for there to be some that aren't simple even if they are played less, because then people that want something complicated to master are satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

NIN and SMN aren't played very much either, but that's because they involve more effort to play than the far more popular RDM, SAM and DNC.

It's just how it will always be. If a class is complicated like MNK not having fixed combos like other classes and having positionals, it's immediately less simple than just playing an RDM. It's good for there to be some that aren't simple even if they are played less, because then people that want something complicated to master are satisfied.

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Funny you cite them... ninja, summoner, and monk are the only jobs I really play... having jobs that have a complex play style are very good for those of us that want something deeper, and its important that we keep some of them rather than dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator. Simple jobs already exist for those who want that.

Riddle of Earth annulling positional requirements feels like a temp-fix for those that don't like that part of Monk. We already had True North, but they clearly thought Monk needed a bit more help. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually remove a couple of positional bonuses from skills, maybe removing it from "Twin Snakes" and "Demolish" since those would be the least used when doing your rotation. They may also be adding new skills to the combo in Endwalker, that may also have positional requirements.

SAM has 2 positional requirements. DRG has 3. I don't play Ninja, but I believe they also have 3. But MNK has 6(lol), I think they're going to trim down some of the MNK positionals for sure. Like I said before, I can see them removing 2 positionals at least.

The positionals on MNK aren't that bad. Think of it like this.

Dragon Kick → Twin Snakes → Snap Punch
Bootshine → True Strike → Snap Punch

That translates to...

Sides → Sides → Sides
Rear → Rear → Sides
Sides → Sides → Sides
Rear → Rear → Sides
repeat

You spend 4 GCDs at the sides, then 2 at the Rear, repeat. It's simple if you think of it like that.

Every third combo you are swapping Snap Punch for Demolish which has a Rear requirement. That means you spend 3 GCDs at the Rear instead, which either comes before the other 2 Rear attacks, or after the other 2 Rear attacks. One way or another, it's 3 Rear attacks in a row.

Hmm... I may have been wrong about the MNK rework in EW. I clearly remember hearing/reading about it, but can't seem to find anything one it. For now I'm going to guess I misread/heard sorry about that

MNK was already reworked in a patch but some of the changes made some things a bit in need of a review, and those will probably be looked at for EW along with adding new things.