Breathing new life into PVP

we all know how big of a joke PVP is and how people are loathe to do it. even my personal friends who get high into the seasonal feast rankings tell me how unfun and miserable it is. the ladder climb is also very terrible because as a new player who's coming in a few weeks into the season, the floor is a lot higher. you're not going to have an easy time climbing if you're a bronze going against a team of gold/plat players.

to preface this very little of this suggestion involves changing or reworking pvp gameplay systems, only reward systems.

1) Wolfsmarks to Wolfcollar Conversions
immediately i think this would get people back into playing pvp. i think a rate of 5k, or 10k, or 20k for 1 wolfscollars would work. this would still shape up to be a significant time investment.

2) WoW-ification of PVP Armor
so what i mean by this is how in warcraft they have 3 sets of pvp gear.

further in i describe "unranked ranked pvp currency armor" in wow there are 2 pvp currencies, honor and conquest. honor can be acquired through various pvp activities, both ranked and unranked. conquest is the ranked pvp currency which can be obtained the same way, just in much smaller quantities. the ranked pvp armor can only be obtained via reaching a certain ranking within the pvp season it's available.

baseline unranked pvp currency armor: dungeon reskin (or in this case the usual pvp armor we get around the launch of the expansion.

unranked ranked pvp currency armor: rf/normal/heroic reskin (think prototype alexandrian vs alexandrian armor. it's the same armor but it's missing a lot of the bells and whistles and extra ornamentation.)

ranked pvp armor: mythic reskin (again, think prototype alexandrian armor vs alexandrian armor). this could be the top 100 ranked armor.

3) Allow the purchase of recolor top 100 ranked armor/mounts
basically just make it spaced per expansion. in this hypothetical, if you wanted to buy the ranked pvp gear from this season, you would need to wait until endwalker. to compensate this could be significantly more expensive to buy with wolfscollars.

honestly i don't find pvp very fun, but if it had greater rewards or a greater rewards system like i describe, i'd probably put the time in and do it.

Or just get rid of it. PvP doesn't work at all in this game due to the netcode

Pvp is a complete mess because there is not a real reason to do it honestly. In WoW there was a gear incentive to work towards that had rankings. There is no Arathi Basin or Warsong Gulch type thing to do that is fun. Also do not get me started on my entire skill tool kit being thrown in the trash.

Never really considered it a thing honestly. Also the Glamour closet is so god awfully limited in FF14 that even getting the glams is pointless because they take up closet space. It is almost like they created the Glam system and never finished it or designed it when the game was free to place figuring they could monetize more closet space but then went back to pay to play and threw out the idea.

The devs do not seem to honestly really care about the state of pvp from what I can see as pve is the big draw of the MMO and there is no point in competing with WoW in this area.

1- Really this should be in the PVP section

2- I enjoy PVP, I've played in other games for well over 10 years in which PVP was not only an afterthought, but was a core component of the game design. I enjoy PVP in FFXIV for what it is - a nice diversion from all of the PVE. I hope that it will get some improvements, but I don't expect that it will ever be more than a minor feature for the dev team.

3- I hope that we never ever ever see anything remotely like "a WoW-ification of PVP Armor so what i mean by this is how in warcraft they have 3 sets of pvp gear." as @grinkdaboy outlined. I've been on another game with the PVP season , gear, currency and ranking endless grind. I did it, but it requires a big investment, and that can take away from the fun for a lot of people, and it can lead to all kinds of gameplay issues.

What is much more fun is being able to hop into a match and having the outcome determined by your skill, tactics and coordination, rather than by the fact that your opponent outgears you, and by that fact can one-shot you.

PvP in this game is really fun. I've done it in other MMOs and it's not even that different. There is a bit of a delay for example when you stun someone, but it still works and it's fine.

I don't do PvP very much because there is too much PvE content to do and that is priority for me.

I prefer Feast, but I don't do ranked Feast because I only had a 33% win rate which was not going to get me into the top 100. It's only 33% of the time that I have 3 team members who know what they are doing, coordinate effectively on the same target and stay alive when being attacked.

Personally I do not think there should be limited time mounts. They should all be fixed grinds. That alone motivates people to do PvP in their own time already.

They are already breathing new life into PvP with the regular moogle tomestone events, which reward you for doing Hidden Gorge.

What bothers me about PvP in all MMOs is these objectives. I just want to kill the other side and as I get lots of kills, what often follows is the other side still wins which feels so disconnected from how many kills we got.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Puremallace

Pvp is a complete mess because there is not a real reason to do it honestly. In WoW there was a gear incentive to work towards that had rankings. There is no Arathi Basin or Warsong Gulch type thing to do that is fun. Also do not get me started on my entire skill tool kit being thrown in the trash.

Never really considered it a thing honestly. Also the Glamour closet is so god awfully limited in FF14 that even getting the glams is pointless because they take up closet space. It is almost like they created the Glam system and never finished it or designed it when the game was free to place figuring they could monetize more closet space but then went back to pay to play and threw out the idea.

The devs do not seem to honestly really care about the state of pvp from what I can see as pve is the big draw of the MMO and there is no point in competing with WoW in this area.

---

i'm not saying make it compete with wow, i'm saying borrowing some of the few ideas blizzard does right with their pvp. pvp was designed as a core part of the game of wow from its inception, and obviously asking them to restructure it like that would not be feasible. i'm saying upgrade its reward structure, because there is just so much stuff that is gated behind content that 99% of the playerbase doesn't care/know about. and i'm not asking for it to be anything more than cosmetic

Honestly they need to bring something in to replace Garo at the bear minimum. I get that we're unlikely to get a repeat of that event since Garo is on a bit of a hiatus and it was a tie in event to commemorate the re-airing of the original season - but we need /something/ to replace it long term. I'd be all for other SE properties filling that void.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

i'm not saying make it compete with wow, i'm saying borrowing some of the few ideas blizzard does right with their pvp. pvp was designed as a core part of the game of wow from its inception, and obviously asking them to restructure it like that would not be feasible. i'm saying upgrade its reward structure, because there is just so much stuff that is gated behind content that 99% of the playerbase doesn't care/know about. and i'm not asking for it to be anything more than cosmetic

---

Just letting you know why I never do it. Most other MMO's I played there was a gear incentive to pvp but FF14 has a formula and they sure are sticking with it. No gear the only other thing to attract people would be some type of grindable cosmetics.

They obviously have no problem with this concept if you have ever done the Yokai event but when it comes to pvp they seem confused what to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

-snip-

---

I absolutely agree that Feast and it's rankings are incredibly flawed, and the sooner they either properly overhaul ranking seasons (if not entirely scrap them), the better. I still stand by thinking the biggest problem with the devs and their PvP "team" for Feast rankings is that they are unwilling to stagger (and maybe shorthen) the seasons to start and/end during patch lulls, rather then when every new content patch goes live- which inevitably takes attention away from it from all but the most diehard. They have plenty of patch lulls that they're trying to pad out with Moogle tomestones, when they could just as easily start having ranking seasons start at these times as well instead of making it compete with new raids, side-content and trials.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

1) Wolfsmarks to Wolfcollar Conversions
immediately i think this would get people back into playing pvp. i think a rate of 5k, or 10k, or 20k for 1 wolfscollars would work. this would still shape up to be a significant time investment.

---

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IckyBossyH...en-max-1mb.gif

No. Wolfmarks are participation trash. You get them for queuing Frontlines and can basically do nothing so long as your party doesn't notice/care to kick you. The tomestone/marks difference from being the 1st place team to 3rd place team are insignificant. They have no business being a back-route to something that required Feast seasonal participation. The real problem with Wolfcollars is that the devs have all but stopped caring about adding anything to them outside of pity weapons for newer jobs. If they want to do anything to Wolfcollars, it really shouldn't go beyond increasing the collars awarded per rank or decreasing the collars for each weapon.

However-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

3) Allow the purchase of recolor top 100 ranked armor/mounts
basically just make it spaced per expansion. in this hypothetical, if you wanted to buy the ranked pvp gear from this season, you would need to wait until endwalker. to compensate this could be significantly more expensive to buy with wolfscollars.

---

I can sort of get on-board with this. The devs have already shown they have no problem reskinning/recoloring things from different content to some other unrelated content as rewards (hello, red 100 wins Onsal Hakir Construct mount for Unreal rewards). The technicality here is that this doesn't actually give 100 ranked rewards elsewhere (Yoshida said that won't happen, if you still believe everything he says); you could immediately identify whether it was a ranked reward or bought through other means.

Honestly? I think on the PvP front (especially Frontlines) they need more incentives to put in effort to win. The 100 wins mounts are a good incentive (if not a little exasperating), but everything else is bought with Wolfmarks and are cheap enough to have a set of something in under a day or two of queuing. "I don't care, I'm just here for marks/tomestones." Why not? the pity prizes for the losing teams are almost as good as the winning one.

I'd suggest a new currency for PvP separate from Wolfmarks, I dunno, call them Wolftags. Something you'd only get awarded for being on the winning team(s)- like 3 per win (and maybe award 2nd place just 1 for not being the losing team). Next time (maybe in 2022???) they add new PvP gear the undyeable versions can be bought with Wolfmarks, like Garo in the Goldsaucer. If you want the dyeable versions, you buy them with the new currency. Like 5 for body/leg pieces, 3 for everything else. The "I don't need to try" mentality actually needs one stick instead of a dozen carrots outside of the 100 win achievement mounts.

I think adding more desirable carrots like rank mount reskins would go a long way. Personally i enjoy the duels in this game but the delay between skins is slightly annoying if they tightened that up I could see more people playing.

well why not provide an alternative slower route to accumulate wolfscollars? i wouldn't even care if it was a retextured version of the wolfmark weapon or if they gave the wolfmark versions ugly particles/glow like ultimate weapons. acquiring a massive amount of wolfmarks is also a significant timesink, and making so you can convert them would also serve as a good currency sink because god knows there's nothing i want from the vendors. i've been capped on them, or if not capped, *almost* capped on them from when they added that contest winning robo suit stuff.

and a good replacement for the garo gear would be to cycle in/cycle out modified old top 100 sets i think

I remember gearing up some of my side jobs via PvP looong ago. It was nice. I'd be fine if that came back lol. Heck, maybe bring in some optional relic progression.

Unfortunately stuff that's good seems to bring in a lot of people who literally try not at all, at least when I did PvP more back then it was fairly common to have someone afk like it was an alliance raid or MSQ roulette. Maybe still a thing but I did play during a period where the rewards didn't have stats and there were far less AFKers.

I think people try in PvP but they don't necessarily understand what to do. The only thing that's obvious is to kill the other side but that let's everyone down in everything except The Feast where there aren't objectives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shougun

I remember gearing up some of my side jobs via PvP looong ago. It was nice. I'd be fine if that came back lol. Heck, maybe bring in some optional relic progression.

---

True, having PVP tied to PVE could be a nice thing, and vice versa too: I would definitely do PVP rather than Eureka and Eureka 2.0. Maybe even allow us to upgrade our tomestone gear with marks so that while slower (i dunno, make it 10k points a tome or something) at least PVP is more lively. Or heck just allow us to spend our points to give us some good armor on par with tomestone. Plenty of possibilities really.

As it is PVP has just very short life span: there's no real reward besides some other shiny glamour, but once they got their shiny glamour it's back to being lifeless. And I'm almost sure it'll remain as such unless some major changes will happen.

I'm not a PvP person but I think I would if there was a less intense version of it? I'm sure it's pretty basic for others but for me, it's just sorta chaotic and super serious. Maybe a PvP that's got more gold saucer feel to it? Hoping the new GS update is PvP perhaps???

Total 15 posts and none of them showing poster have any clue on how FF14 PvP is about.
This is amazing.

PvP has a couple of problems:

1) Player behavior in PvP makes conducting rotations, even on one button, extremely difficult since ones defense is higher than the offense. In normal battles you take someone out pretty darn fast so they don't have time to really move around much. Even ranged dps can survive a lot of hits before going down in most matches.

2) It really breaks the fantasy that the player is part of some elite class that they were aiming for in the main story. Original World of Warcraft was much more of a "yeah you are better than a lot of people, but there's a lot of people out there better than or equal to you, too", so the PVP felt more believable.

3) the very fact our rotation is drastically different in PvP presents issues. It's hard enough getting used to 3 different jobs at once at end game. PvP still poses that same kind of problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPK

Or just get rid of it. PvP doesn't work at all in this game due to the netcode

---

I don't PVP very often. But there's no need to get rid of it. Its fun to me when I do engage with it.

Frontline and Rival Wings are fine as they are. RW could use more maps though. When is Astragalos coming back?

I don't really do Feast because of several reasons;

- No rank decay.
- Only 1 map in the ranked queue when there are 3 available.
- The seasons start at the same time as new big PvE content is added. They should delay seasons by 1-2 weeks so people don't have to choose between PvP and PvE.

But overall, I think PvP got sidelined this expansion because of Covid and the ARR revamp. I wouldn't be surprised if the new small-scale PvP mode that is coming with Endwalker were originally planned for 5.55 but, like the next Ultimate, got pushed back.

We usually get at least 2 new maps/modes per expansion but we only got Onsal Hakair.

If anything, PvP should be reworked from the ground up when it comes to the skillset's every Job has in this mode (and remove those cursed Healing Potions which everyone has, they just unnecessarily stall for time). Every Job should have at the very least the chance of killing any of the other Jobs to a acceptable degree, instead of this rock-paper-healer system we currently have, son that we can finally have properly working Duels and small-scale matches which can be actually fun (also remove the tank-healer-rangedDPS-meleeDPS Rule for Feast).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Frontline and Rival Wings are fine as they are. RW could use more maps though. When is Astragalos coming back?

---

Both should be inplimented at the very least, into the Frontline Roulette, or even have their own Roulette.

Make the previous feast rewards available via wolf marks. People will definitely pvp for the glam but other than that PvP has same very base fundamental issues that can only be fixed with a major rework. Issues include:

-Ranking has no decay
-Job balance redundant in frontline where zerg rushing is the only viable strategy
-Gcd too long, needs to be 1.5 sec or less
-Healers more annoying and disruptive than tanks
-Tank defensive tool kit useless
-Too much RNG in frontlines
-Unfair to controller players, Classic case of KB&M being far superior in a game where freely targeting is an asset (fact)

Im sure there are more to add, especially about the feast but I stopped trying back in HW to know how it works now. Bottom line PvP is just another piece of content to add glamour and the current glamour is decent but if you put up the feast rewards armor or make wolf marks purchasable so people can get the wolfhound weapons, the queue times would be more consistent. Just like how it was in the months after the Garo event dropped back in HW, with seal Rock popping almost within 10 mins or less during peak times.

Every pvp mode has its problems, but they all suffer from the same problem: there is no incentive to play if you're not having fun. If you grind pvp daily you can easily buy everything within the shop that isn't armor related within 2 weeks or less. Yes, we have a new mode that's coming, but it's going to eventually suffer the same fate as the other modes after either one or two major patches. Unless pvp has some sort of requirement or some sort of urgency to play it's going to continued to be ignored.

5.08 was possibly the best patch I've seen for pvp, because 72 man frontline games were going nonstop even after peak hours. I have yet to see anything that comes close to this.

The gcd is what makes pvp clunky. The game play just doesn't feel smooth enough to be viable in a pvp format.

We used to have PVP armor that had stats on it, but they did away with it (I joined the game at around that time so I'm not exactly sure WHY they did away with it, maybe it gave too much of an advantage?)

I keep hoping that with whatever new version of Feast they're creating, that it puts the fun back into PVP, makes rewards enticing but not impossible and brings the community together like GARO did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marxam

Make the previous feast rewards available via wolf marks. People will definitely pvp for the glam but other than that PvP has same very base fundamental issues that can only be fixed with a major rework. Issues include:

-Ranking has no decay
-Job balance redundant in frontline where zerg rushing is the only viable strategy
-Gcd too long, needs to be 1.5 sec or less
-Healers more annoying and disruptive than tanks
-Tank defensive tool kit useless
-Too much RNG in frontlines
-Unfair to controller players, Classic case of KB&M being far superior in a game where freely targeting is an asset (fact)

Im sure there are more to add, especially about the feast but I stopped trying back in HW to know how it works now. Bottom line PvP is just another piece of content to add glamour and the current glamour is decent but if you put up the feast rewards armor or make wolf marks purchasable so people can get the wolfhound weapons, the queue times would be more consistent. Just like how it was in the months after the Garo event dropped back in HW, with seal Rock popping almost within 10 mins or less during peak times.

---

Definitely a "No" to wolf marks for previous feast rewards.
Last thing we need in this game is PvE Glamour farmer who has no intention to learn from PvP

Several errors to your list:

Zerg rushing was never the only viable strategy, it is only NA datacetrer thinks that way.
If you are willing to search FF14 Frontline (Japanese) you will see quite a lot of videos from Japanese players and it is clearly evident there is always one commander giving out commands in the chat and you will see no players will challenge that commander's command.
Clearly examples are Secure and Shattered that until this day, people still clueless how to counter that ramp Warriors group in Secure or half of alliance getting bait off the objective because they want to chase two players.

GCD is fine and it is just enough for people to react and feels less bursty.
No one interesting to see WoW's ridiculous HP pool because their devs don't know how to balance between PvP and PvE.

Both Healer and Tanks are actually in a good equilibrium from Frontline perspective.
If you are talking about Feast, unless they can clean the house on those win traders, I don't think anything need to be change for merely 150 players each datacenter.

I don't see controller is an issue as I am using controller on PC client myself.

Pvp is excellent. We need 24 ppls back. Is not normal to have just a pop to 5pm -12am.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPK

Or just get rid of it. PvP doesn't work at all in this game due to the netcode

---

This. PvP in this game is a joke talked about in other mmorpgs. Because that's all it is, a joke. Yoshi couldn't be bothered to put two seconds of time or effort in this this pathetic excuse of a feature and it shows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Every pvp mode has its problems, but they all suffer from the same problem: there is no incentive to play if you're not having fun. If you grind pvp daily you can easily buy everything within the shop that isn't armor related within 2 weeks or less. Yes, we have a new mode that's coming, but it's going to eventually suffer the same fate as the other modes after either one or two major patches. Unless pvp has some sort of requirement or some sort of urgency to play it's going to continued to be ignored.

5.08 was possibly the best patch I've seen for pvp, because 72 man frontline games were going nonstop even after peak hours. I have yet to see anything that comes close to this.

---

Which raises the question. Where's the new pvp armor? ARR had like 5 sets, HW had something like 3 and SB had 2. This time we got one set and not even a single weapon. Makes me think they just do not care. That's the impression it leaves.

I want a 5v5 Mobile Legends type PvP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyrj

Which raises the question. Where's the new pvp armor? ARR had like 5 sets, HW had something like 3 and SB had 2. This time we got one set and not even a single weapon. Makes me think they just do not care. That's the impression it leaves.

---

It's simply that it is hard to innovate and come up with new and enticing designs that also pass the quality control when there is already a lot of content in the game. ARR had 5 sets because there was nothing "old" yet. The playerbase in a vacuum also got very picky regarding new gear being released for glamour choices, causing an uproar everytime a specific role got stereotypical glamour "again".

I am obviously not an insider at SE, but playing Devil's Advocate, I can see why gear-per-expansion got reduced since you can no longer slap some plate, leatherstraps and a coat together and call it "new and innovative". The only thing I "am" amazed by is the general lack of Gunblades and Chakrams though.

If you like the pvp system in the world of warcraft then play it. You mustn't bring this nonsense here.
Everything a developer needs to do to get started. Add tape measure for large and small pvp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

It's simply that it is hard to innovate and come up with new and enticing designs that also pass the quality control when there is already a lot of content in the game. ARR had 5 sets because there was nothing "old" yet. The playerbase in a vacuum also got very picky regarding new gear being released for glamour choices, causing an uproar everytime a specific role got stereotypical glamour "again".

I am obviously not an insider at SE, but playing Devil's Advocate, I can see why gear-per-expansion got reduced since you can no longer slap some plate, leatherstraps and a coat together and call it "new and innovative". The only thing I "am" amazed by is the general lack of Gunblades and Chakrams though.

---

I feel there would be a lot of room making sets inspired by gods. God of War, Ares, for Warrior, etc. Next set will be Greek god theme'd, then perhaps Chinese classics (like Sun Wukong, Nezha, etc), lots to pull from with that concept and you'd definitely get unique outfits from the deal lol.