is hair clipping really that hard to fix? new female body armor for magic class

iam talking the Exarchic coat of casting (or the ornate version)

it look nice, it has good design, good style too...

then you look the back and if your character has long hair, you're pretty much screwed

uuugghhh

Armor designers have poor imagination and here we are ;(

They seem to be designed in isolation and never look at what happens when you combine the hairstyle with clothing.

Use short hair. Imagine that you can actually resolve the "issue". The time investment necessary to "fix" clipping isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Use short hair. Imagine that you can actually resolve the "issue". The time investment necessary to "fix" clipping isn't worth it.

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I don't expect them to fix it but I do expect them to be careful about putting large collars on things.

The otherwise-lovely Lv70 WHM gown is completely spoiled by the fan collar on it, for example. My character's hair isn't really long but it still clips through the collar in a vary ugly way. As I said, I think they build the things in isolation and never actually check how the whole character comes together.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't expect them to fix it but I do expect them to be careful about putting large collars on things.

The otherwise-lovely Lv70 WHM gown is completely spoiled by the fan collar on it, for example. My character's hair isn't really long but it still clips through the collar in a vary ugly way. As I said, I think they build the things in isolation and never actually check how the whole character comes together.

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I think that's fine. Not all outfits should be accommodating for longer hairstyles. Yeah, it sucks for people who prefer longer hairs (like me), but by including collars there is more variety, or rather, more unique outfit designs can be created as a whole by being "designed in isolation". Elezen for one, look great in collared tops.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Use short hair. Imagine that you can actually resolve the "issue". The time investment necessary to "fix" clipping isn't worth it.

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this is poor answer to be frank, so if you are the developer you tell people to "yes we have a lot of long hair style but dont use it because it look bad on certain armor, so dont use long hair style"? thats like saying some of your game segment is broken but instead of fixing the problem you tell your customer to play better?

the fact that they have hat/helmet that cover your entire hair mean they actually know how to prevent hair clipping in the first place, why not use the same thing for armor?

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Use short hair. Imagine that you can actually resolve the "issue". The time investment necessary to "fix" clipping isn't worth it.

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I shouldn't have to. It really is as simple as that. I should not have to forego any long hair for short hair or ponytails a bit further back to avoid clipping when they could simply take hairstyles into account and prevent the problem from existing in the first place. It shouldn't even be a problem that needs fixing, it shouldn't be a problem period. Another perfect example is the Scion Traveler set, I loved it the moment I got it and wanted to use it for the entirety of Shadowbringers... and then I saw how horrible it clips with my characters straight long hair.

It's no wonder people resort to using third-party things to fix issues that has been a years long issue in game. Personally, that has been my annoyance in game for years, but luckily found a hairstyle that I can use that fits all of my different types of gear (Gyr Abanian Plait).

rule 1 of a lot mmorpg's: Don't use long hair.

At least if you care about clipping.

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Originally Posted by gumas

iam talking the Exarchic coat of casting (or the ornate version)

it look nice, it has good design, good style too...

then you look the back and if your character has long hair, you're pretty much screwed

uuugghhh

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I suspect whomever designs the armor doesn't do so in 3D. The result is say lancer armor that smears badly in the lancer stance.
https://i.imgur.com/NTdUiZR.png

Or ranged armor that often does not takes into account for the Aetherotransformer resulting in permanent clipping that looks awful.
https://i.imgur.com/GIn49BU.png

The only armor design that accounts for the machinist's aetherotransformer is machinist artifact gear. And even that's kinda hit-or-miss. Doesn't help that the box itself is very obtrusive, and doesn't change to match the weapon, so you either have to glam around it or just try to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The only armor design that accounts for the machinist's aetherotransformer is machinist artifact gear. And even that's kinda hit-or-miss. Doesn't help that the box itself is very obtrusive, and doesn't change to match the weapon, so you either have to glam around it or just try to ignore it.

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I really, really wish they'd make the off-hand weapon slot functional for a lot of other jobs, just so we could have glamour options. Particularly for MCH.

• MCH: Make the off-hand slot able to be used to glamour the lunchbox. Then you can have alternate styles for it, and even include an Emperor's New Aetherotransformer to hide it entirely.
• AST: Make the off-hand slot able to be used to glamour the cards. Then you can have alternate styles of cards; Triple Triad cards (which would go well with the Gold Saucer AST weapon glamour), rectangles of glimmering stardust, rectangles of pure flame, etc.
• SAM: You could use the off-hand weapon slot to glamour the sheath. This way, if you have a sword you love but the sheath is big and bulky/ugly, you could use Emperor's New Sheath to get rid of it (or to pick something less obtrusive). Plus, with the Padjali weapons from PotD, glamouring the blade and then glamouring away the sheath would be neat; you could hide weapon, then draw it and the blade would spring into existence in your hands without a glowing sheath suddenly appearing on your belt.
• DNC: You could have the off-hand weapon slot used to glamour in dance styles; the animations matching the four dance steps would change depending on what you had glamoured in, letting you have a Thavnairian dance style, a Gyr Abanian dance style, a Doman dance style, etc. (I admit this one's unlikely since it'd be replacing the animations rather than the weapon models, but it'd be a neat stretch goal.)

Etc.

Under the hood, things like the lunchbox, the RDM weapon's floating focus, the sheath for SAM weapons, etc. are already handled as off-hand weapons for purposes of the animation system, so some of those would be fairly easy.

(Others like AST and DNC, not so much...)

Yes, small indie Dev with limited budget.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I suspect whomever designs the armor doesn't do so in 3D. The result is say lancer armor that smears badly in the lancer stance.[/IMG]

Or ranged armor that often does not takes into account for the Aetherotransformer resulting in permanent clipping that looks awful.

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One of the best things about gpose is we can finally start and stop until we find good poses and angles that don't look as bad. Some of the freeze frame animations look utterly atrocious even outside of the clipping (MNK has a floppy ankle in one of their animations that makes me laugh every time I stumble on it) but that's okay! I can stop and rewind and forward and back until I find something that looks better in any given outfit.

And while it's definitely a problem in screenshots and in role play, your character is generally moving too fast in combat or while running around for anyone to see too much clipping.

I wish they brought back their physics from 1.0, well something like it, and then continued with that. Yeah your machine will melt if you have hair deforming physics on 200 characters at once, but.. uh.. I just want it on on mine thanks lol.


Soft fluffy chocobo feathers (physics, plush), amazing! Bags and belts that jingle, yee!



If anyone remembers the old animations and physics it was certainly pretty! I wish they had introduced a stronger animation blending / canceling system so I could have kept that beautiful run animation.



Like for spell effects just having it on for self or party is enough, also like spell effects sometimes you DONT want others to have it because then it just gets obnoxious lol (a fate with everyone's spell effects on, it's a perfectly good way to test if you have epileptic issues).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

If anyone remembers the old animations and physics it was certainly pretty! I wish they had introduced a stronger animation blending / canceling system so I could have kept that beautiful run animation.

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I remember the animations (which were lovely, if... uh, somewhat computationally intensive at times), but unfortunately the second part of your comment is why I don't want them back. Until they have a better blending or cancel system, actual combat and positioning is a lot easier with what we have now. If they fixed that part, though... yeah, I miss the old ones a bit. There was an actual weight to some of the moves, where things can feel a little float-y now.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I remember the animations (which were lovely, if... uh, somewhat computationally intensive at times), but unfortunately the second part of your comment is why I don't want them back. Until they have a better blending or cancel system, actual combat and positioning is a lot easier with what we have now. If they fixed that part, though... yeah, I miss the old ones a bit. There was an actual weight to some of the moves, where things can feel a little float-y now.

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Oh yeah, that second part was said on purpose but maybe I should have made it more obvious I meant they were a package deal lol. I don't want to be stuck mid turn and die on an AoE. The animations need to blend or cancel smoothly such that the action I want to do is the action I am actually doing haha.


I just want the natural weight, as you say, back- running looked like you were atually running.. like.. actually on the ground there was traction.. and.. well it was running dangit! haha. But now it's all slippery surface like. I'll take it slippery if it's the only way I can get the game to respond to me when I need it to, but of course animation blending and canceling to have the best of both worlds would be nice :3. OF course as you said they're intensive so there is no way people could have a hundred characters on the screen all running amazing animation blending, canceling, physics, etc. But if it was just your own character, like you can with effects (self, party, everyone), I think it'd be great still (as your own character is probably the one you notice most).

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Originally Posted by Catwho

One of the best things about gpose is we can finally start and stop until we find good poses and angles that don't look as bad. Some of the freeze frame animations look utterly atrocious even outside of the clipping (MNK has a floppy ankle in one of their animations that makes me laugh every time I stumble on it) but that's okay! I can stop and rewind and forward and back until I find something that looks better in any given outfit.

And while it's definitely a problem in screenshots and in role play, your character is generally moving too fast in combat or while running around for anyone to see too much clipping.

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DNC players may notice Entrechat (the one that looks like the twitter logo) makes the shoulders bend in an ungodly angle for a split second. It's fast enough to not notice, but once you do, it's hard to unsee lol

https://i.imgur.com/4PbkBzq.png
https://i.imgur.com/81VNdr8.png

Also it's not exactly a hairstyle clipping but....how this went under the radar amuses me

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuYtc9lX...pg&name=medium

Clipping isn't hard to fix. Fixing it on tens of thousands of items and millions of combinations of those items is, though.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

I shouldn't have to. It really is as simple as that. I should not have to forego any long hair for short hair or ponytails a bit further back to avoid clipping when they could simply take hairstyles into account and prevent the problem from existing in the first place. It shouldn't even be a problem that needs fixing, it shouldn't be a problem period. Another perfect example is the Scion Traveler set, I loved it the moment I got it and wanted to use it for the entirety of Shadowbringers... and then I saw how horrible it clips with my characters straight long hair.

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What the devs take from this: "So everyone, literally everyone, loves shorter hairstyles! Let's make more and ignore that petty clipping issue!" I also have a few male hairstyles I like, but...very few of them go with my favorite outfits. They would if I didn't have clipping to worry about in the back. Pretty much why I'm using what I am currently. I like it anyway, but I would love to change things up once in awhile and not be met with disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

OF course as you said they're intensive so there is no way people could have a hundred characters on the screen all running amazing animation blending, canceling, physics, etc. But if it was just your own character, like you can with effects (self, party, everyone), I think it'd be great still (as your own character is probably the one you notice most).

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To be fair, it's possible to have an animation system that feels more like it adheres to physics without having to actually adhere to physics with painstaking detail; FFXIV 1.0 and 2.0 just swung for opposite ends of that spectrum, with each seeing different benefits and detrimental effects as a result.

As Yoshida and others have noted in the various documentaries and presentations about What Went Wrong with 1.0, the almost unhealthy fixation on graphical fidelity in various areas (like animation and such) was evidently a hindrance in their efforts to get the game to run smoothly multiple places, and impacted their ability to actually make content in a timely manner. You evidently had a team who were more interested in making the combat system look good visually than making it actually functional, much less fun to play.

This didn't always mean that the graphics were the highest resolution, even by the standards of the era, but it did seem to mean that things like "we will model hair perfectly in conjunction with all models" ended up with a higher priority than "we will make the combat system actually fun or functional" (Or "we will design the Black Shroud in a manner that does not make people want to gnaw through their own mouse cord with frustration". I may still have some lingering salt about that map.)

So yeah, they were going to go for really beautiful animations, and if the perfectly-animated stops and turns meant that you would continue a few steps further when you turned or skid in place or whatnot and that walked you into an AoE you'd turned to avoid... well, presumably sacrifices sometimes have to be made when you want those perfect animations.

I feel like a lot of 2.0 and onwards was a reaction to that in the form of a complete 180; they focused on functionality over animation fidelity and such at all costs, so hair just has basic deformation based on wind or whatnot, and doesn't seem to care one whit about what outfit you're wearing. And I actually think overall in terms of pure gameplay mechanics, they made a more enjoyable experience than 1.0 by setting their priorities that way. But there is a sensible middle ground, and I do agree that ARR seemingly course-corrected at such a velocity that they zoomed right back past it on their way to settle in at the other end of the spectrum.

Addendum: for anyone who didn't play 1.0, I found a YouTube video of the 1.0 opening in-game cutscene if you started in Gridania. It gives a good idea of what Shougun and I are referring to when we talk about the 'weight' of animations and how it felt more like physics was applied to things (animations, clothes, etc.). Look at how the person's PC (the dark-haired elezen) looks when they walk in these cutscenes, versus the vaguely glide-y way characters walk from place to place in the ARR-and-onwards cutscenes.

(Bonus: you get to see one of my favorite 1.0 early-cutscene moments, with everyone running for their lives from a carnivorous tree. This is why you do not mess with the elementals, yo.)

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Originally Posted by Edax

I suspect whomever designs the armor doesn't do so in 3D. The result is say lancer armor that smears badly in the lancer stance.

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i have friend who work in small indie game company (currently doing rpg game), he said that most of his 3D work is the result of 2D tracing, so the designer hand him piece of paper with the armor design (the usual back and front view with T pose blank character) then my friend just scan it into his pc and start tracing it to 3D

wonder if SE also do the same

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Originally Posted by gumas

i have friend who work in small indie game company (currently doing rpg game), he said that most of his 3D work is the result of 2D tracing, so the designer hand him piece of paper with the armor design (the usual back and front view with T pose blank character) then my friend just scan it into his pc and start tracing it to 3D

wonder if SE also do the same

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My guess from the encyclopedia is that they use a 2D artist whom doesn't play the game as the basis for their designs. That or any problems that occur in 3D aren't communicated to the concept artist for a revision and they just leave the problem as is.

https://i.imgur.com/kcS8bEL.jpg