Why is the Manipulation skill locked behind the crafting quests?

I'm not a seasoned crafter, but I know this skill is extremely useful when crafting high-level recipes. I was planning to participate in the Ishgard restoration with a job that I don't usually use. I gathered/bought the mats I needed, I crafted collectables and upgraded the tools via white scrips, and then I sat down and started crafting. To my horror, I got the huge red error message saying Manipulation wasn't a valid skill name or something. I kid you not, I felt like someone had punched me in the gut and I fell into despair and considered giving up (since I'm a bit late to the party as I was working on a different job at the beginning of rankings). I had to waste so much time rushing through the stupid quests (starting at the level 15 one) to get the damn Manipulation skill.

Now the question plaguing me is: Why the heck is this skill literally the only skill still locked behind the quests? The quests prior to SB are so darn tedious, and the stories are rarely interesting. All the other skills are now ones you get based on your level (correct me if I'm wrong), so why not give Manipulation the same treatment?

EDIT:
Because people don't bother skimming through the discussion which is only 3 pages at the moment of writing this edit, and they immediately jump to the usual "Lazy person who wants everything handed on a plate" conclusion, no. I leveled my crafters fair and square since ARR. I did all the necessary quests back in the day to get the useful cross-skills crafting needed. So please spare me the same hasty and judgemental answers in this thread. If you're not gonna add something useful to the conversation, please move along.

I don’t know ‘why’ it’s still locked if others are not. But honestly myself having levelled them all much earlier, I actually liked getting better from actually doing crafting and job quests rather than just buying and macroing everything.

I’d say more stuff should be locked behind job quests imo.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

I don’t know ‘why’ it’s still locked if others are not. But honestly myself having levelled them all much earlier, I actually liked getting better from actually doing crafting and job quests rather than just buying and macroing everything.

I’d say more stuff should be locked behind job quests imo.

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I did the LTW and GSM quests back when the skills were locked behind the quests. I crafted all the turn-ins I needed myself. I honestly can't say it made any difference at all when it comes to my skills as a crafter. I just found the quests so tedious, which is why I didn't work on the quests of the jobs I wasn't using much.

It wasn't, once. It seems SE didn't like crafters not doing their quests, so they put an important skill behind it.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It wasn't, once. It seems SE didn't like crafters not doing their quests, so they put an important skill behind it.

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I wouldn't have minded this... had the quests not been so boring and mind-numbing.

I dont mind having to put some work in to get something useful.

They practically hand you crafters on a leve 80 plate now. 1 quest for a skill isn’t much to ask

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Originally Posted by Rhus

They practically hand you crafters on a leve 80 plate now. 1 quest for a skill isn’t much to ask

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It's a lot more than one quest even for one class. And then you have to do the hours of questing for each class you want Manipulation on, so it's not a one time unlock either.

On the other hand the quests give sizeable exp boosts too. Up to and including HW you can buy the required items from the MB if you're feeling lazy, and starting from StB the items are dead easy to craft anyway. If you skip all the cutscenes they don't take too much time either.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It's a lot more than one quest even for one class. And then you have to do the hours of questing for each class you want Manipulation on, so it's not a one time unlock either.

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Exactly! And getting the mats you need to craft the turn-ins takes soooo much time too. I hate throwing money away, and the mats can be super expensive on the MB or the amount can be waaaay more than what you need. I totally wouldn't have minded doing all the quests had they been like the SB ones. I mean, one quest even needs the level III book for the recipe.

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Originally Posted by tdb

On the other hand the quests give sizeable exp boosts too. Up to and including HW you can buy the required items from the MB if you're feeling lazy, and starting from StB the items are dead easy to craft anyway. If you skip all the cutscenes they don't take too much time either.

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I did almost just this since I was in a hurry, and it still took a considerable amount of time (>_<).

This is a side effect of handing crafters over on a plate to people who don't even like crafting. People have become so used to having everything just given to them that when something takes effort they start demanding it be handed over or become outraged.

I guess they might as well really. The class quests are just a final relic from when crafters were actually worth bothering with and don't really fit with the new turbo-to-80 and get-easy-items playstyle.

Unfortunately there no polite way to say this: Suck it up and just do it. Next thing is you'll complain about GP regen buffs being gated behind quests.

I leveled every crafter to max back in ARR when they were fairly complicated to level due to the materials being more expensive. What did I do? I started leveling my botanist and miner after I slogged through goldsmith and spent way more gil than I was comfortable with.

If it takes "too much time" then set smaller short-term goals like getting 1 or 2 levels in each day. Look up what the quests require beforehand and see if you can't get ahead of them(pre-SB at least.) If it's still too much then level your gatherers first so you can get what you need without the MB. The more time you have to moan here on the forums the more time you could've spent working on them.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

This is a side effect of handing crafters over on a plate to people who don't even like crafting. People have become so used to having everything just given to them that when something takes effort they start demanding it be handed over or become outraged.

I guess they might as well really. The class quests are just a final relic from when crafters were actually worth bothering with and don't really fit with the new turbo-to-80 and get-easy-items playstyle.

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Boy, this community sure likes making assumptions and acting all high and mighty. The devs literally changed things so that you get all the other skills based on level. Why make this one any different? And what's so wrong about wanting to get something that mostly wastes time out of the way so that people can spend their time on more important things when it comes to crafting? It's not about wanting things handed on a plate (like I said 1000 times, the quests are boring as hell)--it's about wanting to focus on more important things.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Next thing is you'll complain about GP regen buffs being gated behind quests.

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Again with assumptions...

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

I leveled every crafter to max back in ARR when they were fairly complicated to level due to the materials being more expensive. What did I do? I started leveling my botanist and miner after I slogged through goldsmith and spent way more gil than I was comfortable with.

If it takes "too much time" then set smaller short-term goals like getting 1 or 2 levels in each day. Look up what the quests require beforehand and see if you can't get ahead of them(pre-SB at least.) If it's still too much then level your gatherers first so you can get what you need without the MB. The more time you have to moan here on the forums the more time you could've spent working on them.

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I also leveled my crafters and MIN back in ARR and start of HW. I slaved through it all, fair and square. I'm not one to ask for things to be handed on a plate either. But it's just odd that this one skill was the only one that was still gated behind quests. Either give them all or give nothing. I wouldn't have cared about keeping all the skills gated behind quests.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Boy, this community sure likes making assumptions and acting all high and mighty. The devs literally changed things so that you get all the other skills based on level. Why make this one any different? And what's so wrong about wanting to get something that mostly wastes time out of the way so that people can spend their time on more important things when it comes to crafting? It's not about wanting things handed on a plate (like I said 1000 times, the quests are boring as hell)--it's about wanting to focus on more important things.

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This is a purely optional skill though. Yes I can’t see how you’re going to do the expert craft without it and perhaps it’s needed for some of the high 80 stuff but the rest of the game I don’t think it’s required. Makers mend can usually replace it for a similar cost.

I think just generally it’s assumed that the crafters doing the really high end stuff are going to have done their job quests. Otherwise you’re essentially giving the best things crafters offer for minimal effort.. I mean you can literally buy your way to 80 with Gil and probably never have to craft an item which is why you get a bit of negativity when this stuff is brought up.

It is a bit confusing if you say they removed all the other job quest skills and left this one in though. Perhaps it will get changed in the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

This is a purely optional skill though. Yes I can’t see how you’re going to do the expert craft without it and perhaps it’s needed for some of the high 80 stuff but the rest of the game I don’t think it’s required. Makers mend can usually replace it for a similar cost.

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Exactly. Last time, I gave up because I didn't have the crafted gear and the prices were so over the top and I wasn't willing to spend that much money on it. I thought it was hopeless for me to craft these recipes without this melded gear. But this time, I wanted to challenge myself by trying the expert recipes. I watched many videos and read guides. I saw a video of someone who made the expert recipe with max collectability using only the scrips gear (which is what I have). This gave me hope (though I'm not aiming for max collectability, mind you). I figured I'd go for a different job than last time too and chose one in which I thought I miiiight have a chance at a good ranking. But then I discovered the whole thing with Manipulation and despaired. I still "sucked it up" (like SomeRandomHuman kindly said), and did all the quests till I got the skill. It was such a tedious grind that I found was nothing but a waste of time. This is my opinion about all the crafting and mining quests because they're legit the only ones I don't have the faintest memory of after finishing them (compared to the DoW and DoM quests).

Edited to add that the main reason I gave up on the other crafters' quests is because of how boring I found the ones I had done. Also, I did the required quests back then to get all the useful cross skills, so I'm not a lazy person. The devs changing things later and messing up my work was aggravating. I remember I had Manipulation for LTW and GSM (as they're my main crafters), but then with the change, I had to go back to the tedious quests yet again to get it back for both of them (correct me if I'm wrong). I had already done my work once. Why force me to do it a second time?

I believe the idea was to discourage or reduce the need to macro synths, but I think the team forget that you can't level one craft and not fall into the crafting trap where you need to level all the rest.

Its already way too easy... the SB change for quests turned it into a piece of cake...

What I don't get is why people are saying stuff about crafting becoming easy now and linking it to the quests too. Crafting was made easier as a whole system. The quests have nothing to do with it. Whether they have quests and gated skills or not doesn't change this. After all, you can still get turn-ins from the MB. I'm not too versed in crafting, so I don't know how much they dumbed it down. However, had I been a crafting enthusiast, I know I wouldn't be happy about something I like and enjoy becoming way too easy and just about anyone can do it effortlessly. That part I understand. But having gated skills would only deter people if the turn-in items had to be crafted by the player themselves. I also think that a big part of the problem is how easy it is now to level up crafters. For example, the restoration makes it way too easy.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

. I'm not too versed in crafting, so I don't know how much they dumbed it down.

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Yes I think your concern/request is getting lumped into the ‘crafting is too easy, git gud’ side of things and it’s a bit unfair. Noones saying you’re lazy or bad.

But crafting as a whole yes, much much easier. You used to have to level every single job and do all of their job quests to be able to make the best stuff on your favorite job. Now you just have to do the one job quest on whatever job you want to be crafting on. So people are saying ‘so much easier’.. which is right.

But you are also right when you say it’s odd that you only need this one skill this way. Seems an odd design choice.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Exactly! And getting the mats you need to craft the turn-ins takes soooo much time too. I hate throwing money away, and the mats can be super expensive on the MB or the amount can be waaaay more than what you need. I totally wouldn't have minded doing all the quests had they been like the SB ones. I mean, one quest even needs the level III book for the recipe.

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If only they had a harvesting class you could level to collect what you needed.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

If only they had a harvesting class you could level to collect what you needed.

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I guess the first sentence flew over your head. It takes so much time to get the mats because you have to gather them -.-

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But crafting as a whole yes, much much easier. You used to have to level every single job and do all of their job quests to be able to make the best stuff on your favorite job. Now you just have to do the one job quest on whatever job you want to be crafting on. So people are saying ‘so much easier’.. which is right.

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Yeah, I do remember that. I also got all the useful cross-skills back when they were a thing (expect for ARM and BSM(?), I think, since their skills weren't that useful). But when I hear people talking about crafting being dumbed down so much, what I understand from what they're saying is that crafting even with all the cross-skills at your disposal used to be tough. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally I don't see an issue with putting crafting skills behind crafting quests, but I do think that the crafting quests need to be a little more streamlined, or at the very least more rewarding for the time spent on them considering pre-SB quests take a considerable amount of time or gil getting ingredients just to craft them up

If they gave us something like 10,000 gil or a ton of crystals or shards as a reward for doing the quest, it would feel more rewarding and less like a grindquest that you have to begrudgingly do for a questlocked skill

It's good they locked an important skill behind a class quest, they made it possible to max crafters in an eye-blink, having to put some more effort before u can craft good gear etc. (and possibly gil) isn't too bad imo.
Personally think it's a way to give somewhat of a more value on high-end crafts by having such barrier.

because no matter what job you pick, they want you to do your job quests

How about going the other way, lock certification/artisian stamp behind regular patch crafter quests that are turing test worthy. Show certifications in market so buyers can support none bot goods.

Topic is really "I want to shortcut my crafters to 80 without the quest work needed". The quests are short and if you actually did them methodoically when you level, they are quick because by the time you get to the 60s, they hand you all the mats on a silver platter for free. But if you snub them and go all the way to 80, of course you're going to spend hours.

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Originally Posted by technole

The quests are short and if you actually did them methodoically when you level, they are quick because by the time you get to the 60s, they hand you all the mats on a silver platter for free. But if you snub them and go all the way to 80, of course you're going to spend hours.

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Having done them both ways: I personally consider (at this point) it's easier, cheaper, and faster for me to do the ARR/HW quests when I've way outlevelled them (ShB desn't count as its free mats). You get the guaranteed HQ with the least time, work, and expense - especially on the second last, or was it last HW one that needs the aetherial reduction materials.

Doing another set of crafters at the moment, and 70 seems to be the sweet spot for me, to do them in the shortest time.

But this is me, everyone is different.

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Originally Posted by technole

Topic is really "I want to shortcut my crafters to 80 without the quest work needed"

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God, can people read the whole discussion before jumping to conclusions? -.-

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Originally Posted by technole

The quests are short and if you actually did them methodoically when you level, they are quick because by the time you get to the 60s, they hand you all the mats on a silver platter for free. But if you snub them and go all the way to 80, of course you're going to spend hours.

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You don't get it. I had all the necessary cross-skills when I leveled my crafters back in ARR/HW. Crafting quests are mind-numbing and time-consuming, so I only did the ones necessary to get the cross-skills needed for decent crafting. I didn't craft much in SB, but I decided to give the restoration a shot now in ShB. But then with the changes they did to crafting, I lost that skill and had to redo the work to get it again on all the damn classes. It was quick for my main crafters, but for the ones whose cross-skills weren't useful back then and which I never used to craft high-level recipes, I had to go back and do them practically from the start.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Yeah, I do remember that. I also got all the useful cross-skills back when they were a thing (expect for ARM and BSM(?), I think, since their skills weren't that useful). But when I hear people talking about crafting being dumbed down so much, what I understand from what they're saying is that crafting even with all the cross-skills at your disposal used to be tough. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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I’m not too sure on the actual crafting being any harder than it is now. It was significantly more time investment, there were fewer efficient ways to level up and to get the skills you needed you needed to clear all the jobs.

As for the crafting itself I ‘remember’ it being harder. But that may just be less macros being available to get HQ even when you have bad RNG.

Majority of people claiming that crafting is too easy have a one/two button macro that they press and I’m not saying they didn’t exist before but I don’t think they were as common. It’s a shame that crafts have a solution such as this. I like the expert crafts, you can max quality them with luck but you can’t do it every time. You’re also destined to fail with bad procs. For me it’s a lot more interesting.

The skill “Manipulation” used to be the GSM 15 skill, the skill “Manipulation” we unlock at 65 quest used to be “Manipulation II” before shadowbringers. The skill at 65 was always locked behind the quest, same with the 70 trait. These are the only crafter skills ever locked behind quests and they were never changed from their inception. This is why Manipulation is still locked, it was never not locked.

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Originally Posted by Eclipse12187

The skill “Manipulation” used to be the GSM 15 skill, the skill “Manipulation” we unlock at 65 quest used to be “Manipulation II” before shadowbringers. The skill at 65 was always locked behind the quest, same with the 70 trait. These are the only crafter skills ever locked behind quests and they were never changed from their inception. This is why Manipulation is still locked, it was never not locked.

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I see. I didn't know that since I didn't really craft seriously in SB, so thank you for supplying an answer to my question. And was Manipulation II the only crafting skill we get from the quests back in SB?

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Originally Posted by Vickii

I don’t know ‘why’ it’s still locked if others are not. But honestly myself having levelled them all much earlier, I actually liked getting better from actually doing crafting and job quests rather than just buying and macroing everything.

I’d say more stuff should be locked behind job quests imo.

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This.

Also some of the crafting stories are really good if you pay attention. Heavensward's weaver story is still one of my favorites in the game. You shouldn't be rewarded for skipping job quests even on crafters, imo.