Matoya’s Relict Critique

Matoya’s Relict is the 7th 80s Dungeon in Shadowbringers thus far and is 1/2 “Expert” Dungeons available for Roulette. It’s also not very good disregarding the music and visuals.

Trash 1 & Boss 1:
Same old Same Old, Ziggy’s Son makes a appearance but has no real detrimental mechs so it’s just a bigger Trash mob

The boss is incredibly underwhelming, it could’ve been interesting but the mechs aren’t that hazardous standard stack standard quake Aoe and it’s dead.

Trash 2 & Boss 2:
I feel this dungeon would’ve greatly benefited if this trash mobs weren’t gated so much, Same thing nothing special or interesting

Abit more interesting than Mudman, look at walls don’t fall off the sides with the water pumps and kill the adds. Least it’s pretty

Trash 3 & Boss 3:
A tiny glint of hazards appears twice...then back to sleep with adds and a solo mob. I like solo mobs...I like them even more if they have some mech behind them like the Qitana Ravel or Ghimlyt.

Porxie fight is as good as this place gets. DPS check is a joke, the Snort mechanic is fun and the rest is routine stuff. Knock back Aoe markers ,that happens every fight on this place, and end scene

In conclusion Matoya’s Relict is rather bland. This is a 80s dungeon I think we can handle a little bit of a curve ball or more difficult trash. A step down from Gauntlet but not the worst 80s dungeon debatably no dungeon is bad in Ff14 but rarely do any escape the bland as bread routine we’ve been doing for 3 expansions straight

From a story perspective it makes sense that most of what in there is rather tame, practically a non-threat. This is our first dungeon back on the Source, and it's in an area that we conquered at level 60. The creatures inside were created by people whose power levels weren't even in the shadow of the ghost of where we are at now.

I mean, I would have preferred a more threatening dungeon, more fun trash, and bosses with more HP, but... it really wouldn't make sense if we walked in there, and the familiars run amok were so strong and fanciful that they were actually hard for us to deal with.

And, of course, we run into the tired discussion of, "The playerbase wants dungeons to be easy non-committal affairs that are braindead easy. As such, the dev team doesn't feel the need to put a ton of effort into anything other than the visuals."

Personally I found the music whacky and fun, and it kind of felt like a Halloween, Trick or Treat type dungeon to me. I also couldn't help but feel like the first segment was a reference to the poop dungeon that was, Saint Mocianne's HM. The vortex holes were even reminiscent of toilets.

I find most of your critique accurate, but I don't agree with the, "dungeons have been bland for 3 expansions straight." commentary. Dungeon quality has been in decline since Stormblood, though.

On some level, after you've taken up raiding for even just one tier of Savage or back in the day, Coil, no dungeon was ever going to truly challenge you as a player again. Especially considering the playerbase loudly voted out dungeons with teeth back in 2.1.

I bet you're the kind of person that would see the Mona Lisa in the Louvre and be like, "eh, it's just a picture of some woman. boring. she doesn't even have any eyebrows wtf SE pfft 'lore reasons'."

I sympathize with the critique. I thought playing around with z-axis movement, getting knocked up into the air, was pretty cool. The second and third fights are definitely better than the first one.

The only thing I found myself mildly disappointed in was that the path to the final boss seemed almost like a copy & paste of Sohm Al (Hard). Granted, it was a lot more colorful and beautiful. It just seemed a little all too familiar.

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I find most of your critique accurate, but I don't agree with the, "dungeons have been bland for 3 expansions straight." commentary. Dungeon quality has been in decline since Stormblood, though.

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Surely this is felt since the Dev team went down from two dungeons per major patch to one. You would think that concentrating on one they'd be able to allocate more resources to it, but- for me personally- I feel that the reason I agree with your point here has to do with that timely decision.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Matoya’s Relict is the 7th 80s Dungeon in Shadowbringers thus far and is 1/2 “Expert” Dungeons available for Roulette. It’s also not very good disregarding the music and visuals.

Trash 1 & Boss 1:
Same old Same Old, Ziggy’s Son makes a appearance but has no real detrimental mechs so it’s just a bigger Trash mob

The boss is incredibly underwhelming, it could’ve been interesting but the mechs aren’t that hazardous standard stack standard quake Aoe and it’s dead.

Trash 2 & Boss 2:
I feel this dungeon would’ve greatly benefited if this trash mobs weren’t gated so much, Same thing nothing special or interesting

Abit more interesting than Mudman, look at walls don’t fall off the sides with the water pumps and kill the adds. Least it’s pretty

Trash 3 & Boss 3:
A tiny glint of hazards appears twice...then back to sleep with adds and a solo mob. I like solo mobs...I like them even more if they have some mech behind them like the Qitana Ravel or Ghimlyt.

Porxie fight is as good as this place gets. DPS check is a joke, the Snort mechanic is fun and the rest is routine stuff. Knock back Aoe markers ,that happens every fight on this place, and end scene

In conclusion Matoya’s Relict is rather bland. This is a 80s dungeon I think we can handle a little bit of a curve ball or more difficult trash. A step down from Gauntlet but not the worst 80s dungeon debatably no dungeon is bad in Ff14 but rarely do any escape the bland as bread routine we’ve been doing for 3 expansions straight

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If you like difficulty, go play any of the other multitude of dungeons available and leave the MSQ stuff to the non-leets :)

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Originally Posted by Mchappy

You would think that concentrating on one they'd be able to allocate more resources to it.

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that's not how it works. having only one dungeon means that we got other content instead like Bozja/Castrum/Delubrium instead.

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that's not how it works. having only one dungeon means that we got other content instead like Bozja/Castrum/Delubrium instead.

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Good point! It's not that I was exactly implying that I wish they'd put more resources into dungeons but I get your drift. Technically Stormblood was able to provide us with two dungeons every other patch while also releasing Eureka, Heaven on High content, etc.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

that's not how it works. having only one dungeon means that we got other content instead like Bozja/Castrum/Delubrium instead.

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except Bozja, for exemple, is mostly empty, it's just an instanced zone filled with FATE
while HW Fates give memories faster, Bozja coins ( and castum ) are useless if you don't want the gear

so yeah, i would have expected more from the new '' Expert ''

And since this thread was about analyzung it, i think OP was right

it's just the old recipe of 2 packs of VERY squishy trashs, then boss, then repeat, with 1 or 2 spots where you have to wait for the path to open up so they can at least slow you down a bit

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

I bet you're the kind of person that would see the Mona Lisa in the Louvre and be like, "eh, it's just a picture of some woman. boring. she doesn't even have any eyebrows wtf SE pfft 'lore reasons'."

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You're a bit extreme in your comparison here

When i'm able to clear a dungeon, properly first run while doing something else besides, i think it's ok to criticize it being the new '' Expert ''

It was easy but I enjoyed it. I kinda liked the mechanics in the Nixie and Mother Porxie that were a bit unique.
I also like how the dungeon just looks and sounds, especially the "fantasia" area.
At least it doesn't have a "go to sleep" part like Anaminesis Anyder.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

I bet you're the kind of person that would see the Mona Lisa in the Louvre and be like, "eh, it's just a picture of some woman. boring. she doesn't even have any eyebrows wtf SE pfft 'lore reasons'."

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I never have understood why that portrait painting is such a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Mchappy

The only thing I found myself mildly disappointed in was that the path to the final boss seemed almost like a copy & paste of Sohm Al (Hard). Granted, it was a lot more colorful and beautiful. It just seemed a little all too familiar.

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I literally told my friend on my first run through at that point that it was Sohm Al Hard with colorful lava

Tbh, the only gripe i have is the last 3 big water mobs pull before Nixie. Like you could have pulled it alongside the 2 previous groups, but the fountain is only activated after defeating those 2 groups.
I understand that the fountain teaches you that you use it as a spring platform for the upcoming Nixie boss, but that group seems really out of place.
Also Trusts AI could definitely use some improvement, so they actually use the fountains to go up the platform with the adds and not just stand there until we're all dead.

I really do not like this dungeon. While it just feels needlessly long and gimmicky, my biggest gripes are the random three pack of mobs that you can't pull with the group prior. Like Flay_wind mentioned, it just feels out of place. The other is Barbeque being a one-shot mechanic. Having zero way to recover is just dumb, especially due to certain comps making it likely to cause guaranteed wipes if the healer keeps dying. Warrior and Paladin can effectively be healers but if you're running Dark Knight and two melee. Whelp, sucks to be you if you have a healer who struggles not getting pushed into the death zone they can't walk out of once pushed back enough.

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Originally Posted by Flay_wind

Also Trusts AI could definitely use some improvement, so they actually use the fountains to go up the platform with the adds and not just stand there until we're all dead.

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I actually had a mutual on Twitter start complaining about that mechanic and how they wiped twice from it their first run and I was slightly confused why someone they were playing with didn't tell them to go on the cloud or saw people fooling with it. Turns out the Trust AI doesn't bother to do it. Considering they do stuff like the bridge walk with the frog boss, they really should fix that.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

I actually had a mutual on Twitter start complaining about that mechanic and how they wiped twice from it their first run and I was slightly confused why someone they were playing with didn't tell them to go on the cloud or saw people fooling with it. Turns out the Trust AI doesn't bother to do it. Considering they do stuff like the bridge walk with the frog boss, they really should fix that.

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No, it doesn't need "fixing".

It's one rare chance to actually have to think and solve a puzzle in a dungeon fight, and get the "a-ha" moment of figuring it out.

Trusts do the tightrope walk without prompting because it's obvious.

(In any case, apparently Raha will solve it at the last minute if you haven't yet - not quickly enough to prevent a wipe but should clue in a player if they're stuck.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, it doesn't need "fixing".

It's one rare chance to actually have to think and solve a puzzle in a dungeon fight, and get the "a-ha" moment of figuring it out.

Trusts do the tightrope walk without prompting because it's obvious.

(In any case, apparently Raha will solve it at the last minute if you haven't yet - not quickly enough to prevent a wipe but should clue in a player if they're stuck.)

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I didn't actually do Trust in it myself. I know my thought process would be "nothing is going on, do I get hit?" then I'd see the adds so I would figure to get closer. But I know everyone who plays this game doesn't learn in the same way. Just find it weird they have them do the bridge walk (which you can completely mess up and let them dps) but not at least this.

I love speed running but I also love fun puzzles in fights. My last run was with a over powered group of people. I pulled wall to wall and we burned them down quick. I felt like the adds where just there to fill space. I hope the next dungeon can be more creative. Add more dangerous traps to avoid or that can be used to creatively dispose of adds. Maybe just make the dungeon a boss rush. It ok to create short dungeons as long as they have uniqueness to them. I’d rather have more short dungeons that have uniqueness in them than 1 long dungeon that is stretched out with adds in between just to fill time.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

At least it doesn't have a "go to sleep" part like Anaminesis Anyder.

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Its kinda sad to have to say that, but yes....

I do find the dungeon is ok, just that part before the water boss where we get locked in with 3 mobs are super annoying - add 3x as much mobs if you want to slow us down, but not such ridiculus walls...


Still... I'll always miss the other dungeon, the offstory one, the hard modes we couldve get...*sight*

The fact that every dungeon now is a MSQ dungeon kinda sucks..

I really enjoyed the dungeon. I thought it looked unique; i liked the setpieces and the overall design. The mechanics of the bosses were fun.

I remarked to my FC after I ran it the first time that I'd probably put it down as my favorite dungeon in the game. It's really good IMO.

Pro's:
-Aesthetic is fun, and is a nice return to HW architecture which I've missed since Gubal Hard mode.
-Mobs die in just a matter of seconds. If you have a good comp with people who know what they are doing everything in this dungeon can die in a matter of seconds.
-First boss' mechanic is cool but janky. I've found as a melee I gotta stand with the tank to get my ball in the hole otherwise it goes at some weird angle or just barely misses the mark. Makes it more fun, but it's a minor issue.
-The second boss is the perfect mix of an adorable yet unique fight. A four way tankbuster is a very cool concept and I hope we see it in a future EX-Savage fight.
- The last area with the glowy fire is very cool. A static mate of mine called it "Hell's Lid on acid".
-The last boss has some cool ideas, mainly the checking your axis to get knocked into the right spot.
-The music is so Banjo-Kazooie I got Gruntilda's Lair vibes the whole way through.

Cons:
-Waaaay too much waiting between mob pulls. Mainly because the Poroggo is guiding us we have to wait for them to do the animation, then the thing happens, then we can move. It kills the flow of the dungeon while Hero's Gauntlet didn't really have it be THIS bad.
-The last pull before the second boss. I would love to meet the person who thought this was a good idea. I get the concept is learning to use the water to bounce upwards, but like to put such a small trash mob there after a big pull can get like 11 mobs seems just dumb. I'd rather have like 8 mobs there in two split groups so you can keep momentum going.
-The bosses die waaaaay too quickly. The second boss can be brought to 40% before going into the Cloud phase, and it just shocks me. The final boss can be brought to near 70% before the sucking aoe dodging. Add in the last boss doesn't have too many gotchas like Hero's Gauntlet Berseker and it just feels flat.

The aesthetic and everything for this dungeon are great, I just wish those cons could be fixed to make it more fun and varied. Like imagining if you could fight the 1st and 2nd bosses in a different order each time for variety would add some value to getting it in the roulette.

Agree with gilmorej wiped in trusts a few times, but the aha moment was great, and watching the water wipe bubble from up top, worthy smile.

I thought the dungeon was pretty well designed and that the bosses were fun. Even threw in a couple mechanics we hadn't seen before but were relatively quick to learn.

Oh boy...

When we get introduced to the dungeon and Matoya goes on about us having to listen well to the instructions I assumed it would be played out somehow. But it was just to add flair to the story context...
Likewise going back to the entrance all the time to move to the next portal didn't add anything either. I can understand that in alliance raids like LotA, but this is a light party duty, and if we were going back to the entrance every time, might as well just have allowed the party to pick which frog to go with first. It's a small detail that would go a long way (IMO) into not being another anti-choice 1-2-3 typical Shadowbringers dungeon.

And then there's the last boss... On one hand I like that it introduces new mechanics, on the other those mechanics are constantly interrupting the pace of the combat with rather long periods when you can't target the boss. This is an expert roulette dungeon, if they simplified dungeons to make the "chore" more swift to do every day, they should at least be consistent with that mentality when designing the bosses as well.

If anything this dungeon really makes me wish they'd design extra light party dungeons NOT to be part of expert roulette so they can offer a bit more in terms of execution... They're clearly not going back to that otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Thmas

Agree with gilmorej wiped in trusts a few times, but the aha moment was great, and watching the water wipe bubble from up top, worthy smile.

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I wish they didn't try out their new fangled moves on MSQ. Tried on trust then went to real group and someone had done it already and called out attention to it after they kept dying hehe
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t's not bad, certainly much better than the Gauntlet (my most hated 80s dungeon, even more than Cosmos). I love the music and in general the "Fantasia" theme. And I do hope they give us some of the furniture from the entrance, the style is really cool.

But some things really bug me:

- the pulls, as said by others. Way too small, it's ridicolous. Especially after the huge fun that was Anamnesis last pull, now they keep giving us dungeons with forced tiny pulls. Why??? Trash is generally unfun, small pulls just make it so much worse. I haven't healed it yet but as tank I barely need to use any mitigation at all in that dungeon;

- recycled assets. While the dungeon manages to look great in general, 2/3 of it are recyled. The first corridor is basically Antitower, and the third is Hell's Lid (Hard), as others said. The second has some Ivalice raids feel but I'm glad it's not recycled per se. And after Gauntlet which was basically built off existing open world areas...we are getting half the dungeons per patch and they even stopped giving them unique designs? Man, do I miss SB;

- porxies. I'm so tired of them. I hoped we had left them behind with the first but nope. But then I have more the MSQ itself to blame for that than the dungeon. But the skill names they gave to the boss, they're not even fun, just stupid and annoying.

And at this point I basically do 80s roulette in addition to Expert just for the sake of variety, since just two dungeons in Expert forever gets old fast.
At least we have a deep dung - oh wait we don't.
At least Bozja is fun and rewarding - oh wait it's not.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

It's a small detail that would go a long way (IMO) into not being another anti-choice 1-2-3 typical Shadowbringers dungeon.

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Technically yes, but not here as we first needed the earth, then the water and finally the fire to burn it - cant expect old matoya to stay and wait till we're done lol


Also the fire part is sohm al hard, not hells lid...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I never have understood why that portrait painting is such a big deal.

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Basically it was in French royalty's art collection, they loved it, and added got it sent along a path that eventually put in the Louvre, where it came to be a landmark in art history. The perspective the woman is drawn in is said to be a novel concept for portraits at the time, but there were obviously other artworks that used it.

So simply put, it had an in road to get famous because of being a possession of royalty, and this leg-up lead to it being in a feedback loop of, "It's famous, because it's famous."

Reading these responses and seeing the starred comments shocked me abit, the debacle of dungeons is much more divided than I thought.

I wanna know what is lost to make a dungeon even a fraction more complex? More so if we are givin just one per patch

Nice points you have there OP , let me add some recent feedback I got from DF people(which is close to my own feelings about this dungeon too) after doing this dungeon on a daily basis in expert roulette: this dungeon seems undertuned in general not ony in bosses not having many mechanics but trash pulls also seem to melt faster than usual pulls in lvl 80 dungeons and definitely faster than heroes gauntlet.

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Originally Posted by Besame

I wish they didn't try out their new fangled moves on MSQ. Tried on trust then went to real group and someone had done it already and called out attention to it after they kept dying hehe
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If they didn't, how would you expect players to learn new mechanics? I mean this half-ironically. I had a group in the Warrior of Light trial who, even after I explained verbatim what to do in the Fire\Ice mechanic, (a mechanic that's been around, to my knowledge, since Exdeath), they wiped and insisted that "the mechanic is new, it's too hard!". Heck, to this day, people get to Nidhogg, a trial in 3.3, and run away from stack markers because they don't know what the glowy yellowy arrows are for. So at least it helps making the dungeons SOMEWHAT unique or memorable, given how standardized they all are (piddly, I know, but it's something :|), and it helps people get used to mechanics that newer trials and raids can expand on.


At least MSQ tends to be a safer environment that really just wastes a couple minutes getting back into it.


As for people who cleared before... eh, some people are slow to understand things :P Even monkeys fall from trees.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Technically yes, but not here as we first needed the earth, then the water and finally the fire to burn it - cant expect old matoya to stay and wait till we're done lol

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That's a good point

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Reading these responses and seeing the starred comments shocked me abit, the debacle of dungeons is much more divided than I thought.

I wanna know what is lost to make a dungeon even a fraction more complex? More so if we are givin just one per patch

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The main issue, seems to me, is that these dungeons are part of the daily roulette. People tend to do the roulette out of obligation, and when dungeons have a chance of taking too long the "chore" becomes more bothersome for the average player.
I absolutely love how ARR dungeons are designed versus what we have now, but even I would get burned out if I had to do the same 2 every day 3~5 times a week when 1 or 2 party allies felt like exploring branched paths, treasures or dead-ends.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

That's a good point



The main issue, seems to me, is that these dungeons are part of the daily roulette. People tend to do the roulette out of obligation, and when dungeons have a chance of taking too long the "chore" becomes more bothersome for the average player.
I absolutely love how ARR dungeons are designed versus what we have now, but even I would get burned out if I had to do the same 2 every day 3~5 times a week when 1 or 2 party allies felt like exploring branched paths, treasures or dead-ends.

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The roulette killed dungeon design...to put it dramatically but this is a double edged sword making these instances one note and having so few of them will make running them boring. They should be improving the system not making it worse