After E8S, I promised myself I would play another role instead

By the time I cleared E8S I was so dreadfully bored of Scholar I disbanded my static and promised myself I would play another role. In every other expansion I would stick around for the community for a bit, so that wouldn't have been too hard. I even had a tank already at level 80.

It turns out that instead of tanking I simply ended up playing other games and doing other hobbies. I haven't really learned another role as much as the job I got years of practice with, so it looks like this is just going to repeat for Eden's Promise.

I also realized how stale and sickening the gameplay has become as a scholar the other day, when I compared how it plays now to how it played back in heavensward (haven't played stormblood). Hell, even in ARR I had more to do at lvl 30 than I do now. But the extreme and savage fights are still fun and the dps jobs feel good to play as for most of them, so I still enjoy the game.

Sch has lost so much identity. It was known for its dps kit being a bit more involved than other healers and with that gone it feels really uninspired. I had high hopes for Sch changes after the live letter but based on the patch notes its really nothing exciting. Gameplay is just as bland as ever.

For me i tried switching to dps from healer, but i just don't find dps or tank anywhere near as fun as healing.
It's weird, despite how boring and bland the healer kits are now, i find healing itself still the most fun.

We can only hope and pray that they revert AST and SCH changes back to their pre SHB kits in the next expansion, with maybe a couple changes here and there and some new fun toys to play with.
But by the way square is doing things so far i don't think that will happen...i mean just look at what they just did to monk.
The devs seem to be content with stripping away everything that makes a class unique and homogenizing it all for the sake of a perfect balance.

Idk about everyone else, but i'd much prefer more uniqueness with jobs then having more balance. yes even if that meant some elitists might ban certain jobs from their groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_

Idk about everyone else, but i'd much prefer more uniqueness with jobs then having more balance. yes even if that meant some elitists might ban certain jobs from their groups.

---

Same but the issue is that those "elitists" are basically the midcore playerbase that follows the "meta" like it's their religion without actually understanding what the meta is even for.

See I'm in this weird in-between myself, I've taken a break from FFXIV and playing WoW instead. And honestly? I think they have more interesting healers. Especially Holy paladin, which i think does the whole builder spender healer much better then SCH and actually has a dps rotation.

Yet at the same time, I still don't hate playing SCH. I did say this raid tier I would not heal, but it's more out of a desire to experience a raid from a different perspective then me just being salty and quitting healer out of boredom. SO it's like, yeah, I wish SCH had more to do but at the same time it doesn't leave me so bitter as to call the gameplay "sickening"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

See I'm in this weird in-between myself, I've taken a break from FFXIV and playing WoW instead. And honestly? I think they have more interesting healers. Especially Holy paladin, which i think does the whole builder spender healer much better then SCH and actually has a dps rotation.

---

WoW certainly does healers better than XIV but with the state that healers are currently in that isn't very difficult in the first place.

People like to shit on WoW, some even for justified reasons, and it has a lot of issues but they managed to not only make healing engaging but every healer class feels distinctly unique.

Because the 5.4 SCH changes are an actual dps buff I'm going to push forward with the class this tier. But these changes (even as buffs) are a complete gameplay killer for the class and demonstrate how little they understand (yet again) about how healers play. They changed ED and buffed broil/bio so that we would heal more? But are too disconnected to understand that it :
- Affects single weaving, movement, etc... negatively
- Promotes clipping the GCD which is clunky
- DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM. AST have no healing cost on ogcds, they get priority. Then SCH fairy skills, then whm afflatus + ogcds and FINALLY SCH aetherflow. They haven't changed anything in regards to this so the healing will still be the same and we have to live with the downsides of their flawed reasoning.

So although I will SCH in 5.4 I will no longer touch the class in 6.0 unless they make a major turn around on their design (or to be more precise, lack of).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

WoW certainly does healers better than XIV but with the state that healers are currently in that isn't very difficult in the first place.

People like to shit on WoW, some even for justified reasons, and it has a lot of issues but they managed to not only make healing engaging but every healer class feels distinctly unique.

---

And yet despite that I still love healing in ffxiv, and I even love the fact they made AF healing less punishing DPS wise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

And yet despite that I still love healing in ffxiv, and I even love the fact they made AF healing less punishing DPS wise.

---

Yes but at the same time they made not pressing Broil like your life depends on it even more punishing, you better not press that Ruin II button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yes but at the same time they made not pressing Broil like your life depends on it even more punishing, you better not press that Ruin II button.

---

Thank god I'm not a world first raider or else I'd be in sooo much trouble right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Thank god I'm not a world first raider or else I'd be in sooo much trouble right now.

---

Playing optimized isn't just limited to world firsts

My static let me swap off healing to be a tank for a tier. I'd absolutely want to swap back if I got my old Scholar playstyle back, of course, but it feels futile to even hold out hope for that.


Also, uhh... yeah, enjoying the feeling of contributing as much as possible to your party's success via skilled plays is not mutually exclusive with being on the bleeding edge of savage clears. Current healer design is sorely lacking in that feeling compared to past healer spell/ability loadouts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

Playing optimized isn't just limited to world firsts

---

Yes, optimization is good, but beneath worlds firsts and ultimates this is basically just needlessly hyperbolic:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yes but at the same time they made not pressing Broil like your life depends on it even more punishing, you better not press that Ruin II button.

---

It's true though. It's not that you aren't allowed to lean on Ruin II or you have to min-max in Savage, EX or Normal, but many of us do and the fact is you're punished with a 90 potency loss each time and those add up fast. So for players who simply enjoy optimizing and pushing their best regardless of the content, the main way to do that is spam Broil and cut Ruin II usage as much as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Yes, optimization is good, but beneath worlds firsts and ultimates this is basically just needlessly hyperbolic:

---

That list is far from complete, you're forgetting early tier clears, min ilvl encounters, non-homogenous skill levels in groups where some people have to push to cover for others (which is like 80% of groups tbh), pugs for those same reasons, and you know... everyone who wants to be good at what they do.

If your point is that with gear people will eventually make it then 1) that's not true, not everyone gets to clear a tier, 2) we could always take that reasoning further and say everything is fine because they'll be able to downsync the content next expansion. Why bother right?

The reality is that even today almost one month into the savage tier release. You aren't making it past 12s without optimizing some. (And the DPS checks this tier aren't the worse we've had)

We also can't forget that optimized play is the measuring stick for balance. So it's also very important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Yes, optimization is good, but beneath worlds firsts and ultimates this is basically just needlessly hyperbolic:

---

It doesn't matter if it's neccessary or not.
The point is that healers are the only role that gets punished for better gameplay. And they even made it worse with 5.3 AST and 5.4 SCH change. You basically have to chose between good gameplay and fun gameplay. You may be able to chose fun gameplay for casual content and use skills like Physick, Adlo, AF heals and other skills you don't really need at that time just so you have a bit more variety in which buttons you press, but deep down you know a good old Broil is what you should be doing. Now more than ever.

It's honestly pretty sad that they've made the tactician job braindead, you get 1 dot, 1 filler, and a pet that comes in a choice of 2 colors.

I don't run current savage with my SCH, but I believe it was around Innocence EX that I made the decision to try giving a DPS job a try in harder content. Previous to that it was all SCH. As I took SCH into additional trials like Hades, Ruby, and WoL; it finally became clear to me that I was strongly disliking that I could not heal reactively in these encounters, and expect to get clears.

What I mean by that is that not only is it detrimental if I am too slow, but it also is if too many players are taking unnecessary damage and KOs. In short, the healing, along with the encounter is scripted. This combined with filling downtime with Broil definitely has caused a bit of a withdrawal from healing harder content, and I can only imagine it being even worse in savage and ultimate where there is even less room for error.

Healing more reactively and having to resort to GCD heals is when I am the most engaged as a SCH or any healer. I don't gain many fans saying I couldn't care less about what SCH has lost as far as its DPS identity goes throughout the years. If 3.0 SCH was still with us today, I would have made the same afore mentioned decision because I DO NOT want to be focusing on optimizing my damage when playing a healer. DO NOT get me wrong; I still do this when I play healer. I am just not a fan, nor ever was a big fan of being a green-DPS outside of 4-man content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rilifane

It doesn't matter if it's neccessary or not.
The point is that healers are the only role that gets punished for better gameplay. And they even made it worse with 5.3 AST and 5.4 SCH change. You basically have to chose between good gameplay and fun gameplay. You may be able to chose fun gameplay for casual content and use skills like Physick, Adlo, AF heals and other skills you don't really need at that time just so you have a bit more variety in which buttons you press, but deep down you know a good old Broil is what you should be doing. Now more than ever.

---

Odd thing about this, is that I find WHM to be the healer that suffers the most from this. Not SCH. This is especially true in casual content where the Afflatus skills aren't really needed because the ogcd threshold is never breached. I suppose Solace is still viable outside combat if someone needs to be topped up. Asylum and Assize will take care of any AoE healing that needs to be done, which negates Rapture. Basically, if you want to use Misery, you can't optimize WHM.

Then you have PE which requires you to follow up with a GCD, and that negates the ogcd benefit to this ability. It isn't my intention to compare WHM to SCH, both have issues that involve clipping and being punished for optimal gameplay. However, I did want to point out aspects within healing that also have issues. Aetherflow and lilies are both on this list. If the devs were to address these issues properly, it should improve the gameplay overall for both jobs. That is what I would hope for in 6.0, and not reverting back to the relic that is 3.0 SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PondHollow

By the time I cleared E8S I was so dreadfully bored of Scholar I disbanded my static and promised myself I would play another role. In every other expansion I would stick around for the community for a bit, so that wouldn't have been too hard. I even had a tank already at level 80.

It turns out that instead of tanking I simply ended up playing other games and doing other hobbies. I haven't really learned another role as much as the job I got years of practice with, so it looks like this is just going to repeat for Eden's Promise.

---

I'm glad to see you're listening to Yoshi P.'s advice when he said its okay to play other games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I'm glad to see you're listening to Yoshi P.'s advice when he said its okay to play other games.

---

And if everyone who mains tank or healer and is frustrated with the boring design does that we're going to have issues.

Its okay, the sky isn't falling though. I'm confident the team will make what ever changes need to make the game feel fresh come next expansion.

I honestly think a lot of people are feeling this frustration here...around healers in general. Square Enix's mindset of "Pure Healers" is causing a ton of issues with healer balance and enjoyment.

I originally was a big advocate for "Pure Healer" roles, because I came from FFXI and other games where healers were...well healers and it was how I enjoyed playing my healer jobs. However, I've come to understand that FFXIV's battle systems and concepts aren't designed around pure healers and they never will be unless they rework the entire game. Which, sorry for people wishing on stars, that's never going to happen.

Square needs to stop trying to cater to this mindset and just admit that they designed themselves into a corner with what is possible for healers in FFXIV. They need to embrace the design decisions they've made and move forward with them to make healers more enjoyable for the way the game is designed, not for the nostalgia of how people want healers to play. I feel like they teeter this line with healers, as to not upset the community at large who want healers to play very traditionally and it creates a tug of war with what abilities/concepts make it into the game...and they're always half-baked because FFXIV isn't designed to support it.

Bring back class identity, give us meaningful DPS rotations, and give us more than 2 buttons to press during downtime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Its okay, the sky isn't falling though. I'm confident the team will make what ever changes need to make the game feel fresh come next expansion.

---

Based on their great SCH and AST changes so far, or all the dev feedback and insight they've been giving us, or the dedicated healer designers they have on the team working hard at this very moment?

...Oh wait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Based on their great SCH and AST changes so far, or all the dev feedback and insight they've been giving us, or the dedicated healer designers they have on the team working hard at this very moment?

...Oh wait.

---

You actually think they would have the devs do that ;) the intern is enough. I mean that would explain the stupid energy drain removal thought they had at the start of the addon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

You actually think they would have the devs do that ;) the intern is enough. I mean that would explain the stupid energy drain removal thought they had at the start of the addon.

---

It's not even the intern...the last time we had any information about their combat design team, aka the 4-5 people also designing the jobs, they had not a single healer or tank main, all just dps players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's not even the intern...the last time we had any information about their combat design team, aka the 4-5 people also designing the jobs, they had not a single healer or tank main, all just dps players.

---

When was this?
When did we last hear about their combat design team?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

When was this?
When did we last hear about their combat design team?

---

That whas in a credits scene from shadowbringer were you had like 5 people doing all jobs. If I remember correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Its okay, the sky isn't falling though. I'm confident the team will make what ever changes need to make the game feel fresh come next expansion.

---

I've been listening to people say this for 5 years now. I want nothing more than for you and them to be right, but I'm still waiting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

I've been listening to people say this for 5 years now. I want nothing more than for you and them to be right, but I'm still waiting.

---

If the game has never felt fresh or different for you in those 5 years then maybe the problem isn't the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Based on their great SCH and AST changes so far, or all the dev feedback and insight they've been giving us, or the dedicated healer designers they have on the team working hard at this very moment?

...Oh wait.

---

Based on them turning a terrible game(1.0) into a game that is year after year still winning awards. Base on the fact that I quit the game a few months after 2010 launch, and came back during 2.2 and still continue to play. Based on the fact that they're always working on making 14 a better product. Is it perfect? No. Have there been missteps, yes? Will they be addressed? If history and past trends is anything to go by, yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Based on them turning a terrible game(1.0) into a game that is year after year still winning awards. Base on the fact that I quit the game a few months after 2010 launch, and came back during 2.2 and still continue to play. Based on the fact that they're always working on making 14 a better product. Is it perfect? No. Have there been missteps, yes? Will they be addressed? If history and past trends is anything to go by, yes.

---

We're not denying it's a great game overall. The devs do a good job and that's why I'm still a happily paying customer.

But they don't get everything right. Look at concepts like Verminion, which remains dead content to this day. Or the Diadem, which had to be reworked and still failed, followed by Eureka which again was met with heavy dislike and needed reworks. Or DRK which was in a poor state in Stormblood and only got reworked to bad WAR clone. WhM has spent several expansions unwanted at endgame and while it's viable now, still is the only class in the game which has clipping as part of gameplay.

Based on history, there's a good chance they might not have it fixed in 6.0. Also based on history, they don't rework entire roles once an expansion has launched. You also have to remember we've had no feedback from the devs on healers. None. Not even a "we hear you and we'll do our best in 6.0. Just more Piety on everything and SCH tweaks that display they're out of touch. Also keep in mind they literally do not have a heal designer right now and 6.0 is being worked on at this very moment.
So for all these reasons, as much as we love the devs, it's vital we keep giving our feedback and making ourselves heard so they realize this is something to prioritize.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

If the game has never felt fresh or different for you in those 5 years then maybe the problem isn't the game.

---

We aren't talking about the game here, we're talking about the state of healers. It's been a downwards spiral for the past 5 years. For 5 years now their own community has offered feedback and solutions. For 5 years now the design has gone contrary to the feedback and how the community plays the role. Finally arriving at the current state.

So like I said. I want nothing more than for them to finally get healers right this time (hell, I'll settle for a small win and a simple change in the right direction at this point, one tiny step). But everyone's confidence in the past was misplaced, and I'm willing to bet yours today is as well. The reality is that SE haven't catered to career healers in those years and they most probably won't start now. The most recent changes to SCH (last patch) are a perfect example of this. If they really had a decent philosophy for healer gameplay in 6.0 they wouldn't push a backward change like the one they just made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

We're not denying it's a great game overall. The devs do a good job and that's why I'm still a happily paying customer.

But they don't get everything right. Look at concepts like Verminion, which remains dead content to this day. Or the Diadem, which had to be reworked and still failed, followed by Eureka which again was met with heavy dislike and needed reworks. Or DRK which was in a poor state in Stormblood and only got reworked to bad WAR clone. WhM has spent several expansions unwanted at endgame and while it's viable now, still is the only class in the game which has clipping as part of gameplay.

Based on history, there's a good chance they might not have it fixed in 6.0. Also based on history, they don't rework entire roles once an expansion has launched. You also have to remember we've had no feedback from the devs on healers. None. Not even a "we hear you and we'll do our best in 6.0. Just more Piety on everything and SCH tweaks that display they're out of touch. Also keep in mind they literally do not have a heal designer right now and 6.0 is being worked on at this very moment.
So for all these reasons, as much as we love the devs, it's vital we keep giving our feedback and making ourselves heard so they realize this is something to prioritize.

---

I think some of what you said is subjective. Like Diadem rework. The gathering instance that is diadem now is actually pretty chill and fun. But we wen't through 2 iterations if count the original before we got what we have now. Although its very focused content which is either leveling your gathering classes or getting materials for Ishgard crafting. Drk also being terrible is hyperbole as the tanks have all been very close in performance and playstyle. Pretty sure world first for Ultimate content was with a DRK for Ultima and Bahamut. Also the way you talk about WHM as if it was never viable class is silly. All classes are and have always been viable in this game, but you are correct to say that some classes are more desirable then others.

A part of the problem is that message boards and chatroom tend to be echo chambers for people of specific kinds of opinions so it can be hard to gauge actual reality and perception when people are being extreme and irrational with their critique of gameplay elements. However they do seem to notice when certain issues reach a fever pitch if you will. Look at monk. The stagnation of it finally made it to their ears and they've stated there will be big changes in the future. I do think you make a salient point though that they haven't even made a statement as to possible changes for healers. I'm not saying feedback is wrong, but I don't think hysteria on message boards is an efficient way of conveying the message.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Drk also being terrible is hyperbole as the tanks have all been very close in performance and playstyle.

---

If we are talking about performance then yes, DRK is not terrible. But I'm pretty sure we're talking about DRK design-wise, the gameplay "feel" if you will, which is always going to be compared to previous iterations or other jobs within the same category and in that case ShB DRK is absolutely terrible, it is just a ctrl+c -> ctrl+v of warrior, it neither resembles any of it's previous iterations nor does it bring anything new and interesting to the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I think some of what you said is subjective. Like Diadem rework. The gathering instance that is diadem now is actually pretty chill and fun. But we wen't through 2 iterations if count the original before we got what we have now. Although its very focused content which is either leveling your gathering classes or getting materials for Ishgard crafting. Drk also being terrible is hyperbole as the tanks have all been very close in performance and playstyle. Pretty sure world first for Ultimate content was with a DRK for Ultima and Bahamut. Also the way you talk about WHM as if it was never viable class is silly. All classes are and have always been viable in this game, but you are correct to say that some classes are more desirable then others.

---

Seriously? We're still bringing up the World First UCoB clear? One player enjoying Dark Knight doesn't negate the massive vocal criticism it received—enough the devs overhauled the job despite said clear. That overhaul led to further criticism because what they landed on is essentially Edgy Warrior. As for White Mage, no one is arguing about its viability but rather it's desirability. Ask any White Mage player just how hard it was finding a static that didn't subsequent ask if you'd switch to Astro after prog. Why? Because Astro was objectively better at nearly everything by 4.3. Not only did it have comparable (or superior) healer tools but offered buffs White Mage couldn't. There was simply no reason to play White Mage much in the same way Black Mage, Samurai and Monk all suffered. They were all inferior to their respectively counterparts.

You mention Diadem but it took three separate attempts for them to land on an decent alternative. That isn't what I call a ringing endorsement considering the lofty expectations they had for Daidem's original concept.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

A part of the problem is that message boards and chatroom tend to be echo chambers for people of specific kinds of opinions so it can be hard to gauge actual reality and perception when people are being extreme and irrational with their critique of gameplay elements. However they do seem to notice when certain issues reach a fever pitch if you will. Look at monk. The stagnation of it finally made it to their ears and they've stated there will be big changes in the future. I do think you make a salient point though that they haven't even made a statement as to possible changes for healers. I'm not saying feedback is wrong, but I don't think hysteria on message boards is an efficient way of conveying the message.

---

Let's look at Monk. It took them four years to finally make changes the community had been asking for. In fact, they notoriously said Monk was the job they were "most proud of" during the Shadowbringers media tour. This despite taking literally none of the feedback offered. Monks complained at length over the slow down of RoH; that they had too many GL related abilities to either maintain or drop their stacks, and they had no means of attacking when forced to disengage. Monk's overhaul came due to the playerbase being so fed up with their feedback getting ignored, they stopped playing the Monk. In essence, they forced the dev team to listen. If anything, that only highlights EaMett and Liam's points. The dev team can be incredibly stubborn when it comes to feedback in spite of them constantly asking for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Seriously? We're still bringing up the World First UCoB clear? One player enjoying Dark Knight doesn't negate the massive vocal criticism it received—enough the devs overhauled the job despite said clear.

---

Gameplay. They overhauled gameplay.

There's a shockingly common tendency among players to say "weak" when they mean "I don't like how it plays." Maybe they just think saying "Weak" is more likely to get it changed than "I don't like it", but the reason World First picks get brought up isn't to address gameplay issues.

Its to address the claims of a job being weak.

And yes.

Dark Knight, during Stormblood, was widely being called weak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dark Knight, during Stormblood, was widely being called weak.

---

Which isn't exactly true either. It was always either roughly on par with PLD's dps or above PLD in most cases, sometimes even reaching or beating warrior's dps. It wasn't weak, it just required more effort than warrior did...and it should've had some form of party utility that wasn't just single target.