Echo Vision Frequency

So, we have Echo visions a lot. Pretty much at the scriptwriter's behest. Yet, I can only think of one character who's had an Echo vision of our past.

That would be Fordola.

Now, obviously, there are other characters who have the Echo or the Resonance. They could see our past, but I don't think anyone else has seen it.

Anywho, I guess this thread would be to speculate why, and to maybe list any characters that view us with the Echo that I've forgotten about?

I know we sometimes share Echo visions with other characters, like Krile or Minfilia. I also know that Mikoto saw the future with her Echo, though it was Cid's future, not ours, as I recall.

Seems kinda strange that nobody ever looks in on our past, and I mean, seems like the Resonant can force it. You'd think the Ascian's could force it too. Feels underused for other characters with the Echo. Thoughts?

I'd have to rewatch the scene to be sure, but I never got the impression that Fordola deliberately looked into our past. It's just part of her constantly-triggering visions.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'd have to rewatch the scene to be sure, but I never got the impression that Fordola deliberately looked into our past. It's just part of her constantly-triggering visions.

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It's not concrete, of course, but she can control when she activates her Resonance. She chooses to activate it in our presence, in response to us having one of her past and then goading her with it. She does this, in spite of knowing that she will most likely have a vision, so it follows that her intent was to view our past. Maybe she can't control the vision trigger, but her Echo does have an on and off switch.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's not concrete, of course, but she can control when she activates her Resonance. She chooses to activate it in our presence, in response to us having one of her past and then goading her with it. She does this, in spite of knowing that she will most likely have a vision, so it follows that her intent was to view our past. Maybe she can't control the vision trigger, but her Echo does have an on and off switch.

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I'm pretty sure that there is a scene in 4.1 where we discuss the Resonant with Alphinaud and he comes to the conclusion that Fordola cannot control the visions, because she had Krile's Echo copied.

As for others who have seen our past via the Echo, it is implied Ardbert and the other warriors experienced an echo of our past at the same time we had an Echo of their defeat of Mitron in our first encounter. Ardbert does the classic head grab we do at any rate.

EDIT: Also, I was under the impression that the Resonant, being an artificial Echo, held the same drawbacks of not being able to consciously draw upon it without training or experience.

I would say that both Emet and Elidibus have viewed our past via 'echo' ability. They both seemed to know it incredibly intimately despite not being witness to most of it.
As unsundered Ascians, they likely don't get the blackout and headache that typically accompanies an echo vision for the others.

From a role-playing perspective, I doubt anyone is ever going to Echo-watch any events of the WoL that we haven't already experienced in-game. This is because doing so would step on the toes of folks who want to make up their own origins for their character. If the game decided to have someone witness that the WoL got their start because Garleans burned down their hometown, then anyone who wants to pretend that they grew up in the slums of Ul'dah or whatever are going to be mighty disgruntled. Echo-revealed facts about the WoL can go back no farther than that original cart/boat ride at the start of ARR.

And, if we limit our Echo visions to only things the player has already seen, then such visions are pretty much all redundant. There's not many good reasons to show them at all.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

I'm pretty sure that there is a scene in 4.1 where we discuss the Resonant with Alphinaud and he comes to the conclusion that Fordola cannot control the visions, because she had Krile's Echo copied.

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That's the impression that I got, as well - and further, that those visions were TORMENTING her. She couldn't help but witness again and again the horrors that she and her allies had inflicted on the Ala Mhigans, because every time one walked by she'd get a front-row seat into his or her past. It's part of the reason why she eventually, albiet somewhat grudgingly, started to walk the path of atonement. It becomes a lot harder to justify all that "collateral damage" on the path to a better tomorrow, when you have to experience that collateral damage firsthand.

The WoDs apparently saw the WoL's life story, in 3.1.

Fordola saw the WoL's life story in 4.1, as mentioned.

I don't think Elidibus saw in 5.3. I think he saw the color off the WoL's soul put couldn't quite put a finger on why it felt somewhat familiar. He never put 2 and 2 together that the Amaurotine WoL he idolized may have been standing right in front of him.

I'm guessing that Zenos might get a vision of the WoL's life story in 6.0, might change his perspective on the WoL.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

I'm pretty sure that there is a scene in 4.1 where we discuss the Resonant with Alphinaud

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That scene takes place in the Resonatorium immediately following the prison scene where Fordola activaes her Resonance and views the WoL's past. Alphinaud pieces together how the imbuement process works and reasons out that they gave Fordola Krile's aetheric pattern. Arenvald derives from this and his own experience that she is like the WoL and himself, and cannot control the visions. The frequency at which visions occur is unknown to him, but he surmises that she must be having them day and night every time the guard changes.

But it's speculation on his part. Everything we're shown with the Resonant implies that they fully control when their powers are active by lighting up their special eye(s). It could be that Fordola knew she could see who was guarding her in this way, and was perhaps testing the waters to see if she could make an escape attempt. Only, the visions started occurring, and all she got out of it was pain. She doesn't control when the visions happen, but if she turns on her powers she's liable to get one. This kind of explains why she couldn't have escaped, say at meal time, despite the Resistance not having any aetheric siphons and what not.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

From a role-playing perspective, I doubt anyone is ever going to Echo-watch any events of the WoL that we haven't already experienced in-game. This is because doing so would step on the toes of folks who want to make up their own origins for their character. If the game decided to have someone witness that the WoL got their start because Garleans burned down their hometown, then anyone who wants to pretend that they grew up in the slums of Ul'dah or whatever are going to be mighty disgruntled. Echo-revealed facts about the WoL can go back no farther than that original cart/boat ride at the start of ARR.

And, if we limit our Echo visions to only things the player has already seen, then such visions are pretty much all redundant. There's not many good reasons to show them at all.


That's the impression that I got, as well - and further, that those visions were TORMENTING her. She couldn't help but witness again and again the horrors that she and her allies had inflicted on the Ala Mhigans, because every time one walked by she'd get a front-row seat into his or her past. It's part of the reason why she eventually, albiet somewhat grudgingly, started to walk the path of atonement. It becomes a lot harder to justify all that "collateral damage" on the path to a better tomorrow, when you have to experience that collateral damage firsthand.

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Not really wanting them to show a pre-adventurer life. Just, you know, little memory slideshow clips like with Fordola, to make it more tangible when other characters have The Echo.

But, again, as far as we are shown, The Resonant control when their powers are active by lighting up their eyes. Though I suppose we could also say that this is just a cool visual for emphasis.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I don't think Elidibus saw in 5.3. I think he saw the color off the WoL's soul put couldn't quite put a finger on why it felt somewhat familiar. He never put 2 and 2 together that the Amaurotine WoL he idolized may have been standing right in front of him.

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I don't think we were ever "the Warrior of Light" pre-Sundering. The legendary warrior that Elidibus is channeling seems to be an early incarnation of Ardbert's soul-shard.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I'm guessing that Zenos might get a vision of the WoL's life story in 6.0, might change his perspective on the WoL.

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Maybe he'll finally stop trying to push his "we both love violence for violence's sake" line on me then.

I feel like we've missed the opportunity for a shift of perspective for Zenos though. I remember when he first popped up again in 4.3 and we were wondering where he might go from there, and the answer has disappointingly turned out to be "straight back to what he was doing before".

If you're not going to take a man's physical death and revival in another body as a storytelling chance for some introspection and shift in perspective, when is it going to happen?

And since they've gone that way, I don't know where they could take it from here. As much as his relentless "there is nothing in this world but battle" thing gets dull, having him find compassion (or any degree of care for others) at this late stage would feel trite.

In some ways it's a path we've already trodden with Omega and its late realisation of the importance of the soul, but Omega was questioning along that line from the start and wanting to understand even if it was entirely ill-equipped to do so.

Zenos doesn't need to understand what drives us. He knows. He's entirely wrong about it (give or take your personal interpretation of your WoL's motives) but he knows - not that it really matters so long as we give him a good fight out of it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

But, again, as far as we are shown, The Resonant control when their powers are active by lighting up their eyes. Though I suppose we could also say that this is just a cool visual for emphasis.

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I just rewatched the scene - she's arguing with Arenvald when her eye lights up and she gets flashes of our past, and she immediately grimaces. It doesn't feel deliberate to me.

Other scenes imply she's sensing other people's thoughts without even showing the Resonant eye effect, from wincing in cutscene #2 of "The Price of Freedom" (where we don't know what's going on with her yet) to an outright Echo-headache in #5 of "Return of the Bull". It lines up with Arenvald's observation and indicates that she is constantly getting these unwanted flashes of emotion, if not actual visions, from the people around her.

I don't know if that supports or detracts from my impression that her looking into our past isn't deliberate, but the simplest argument against is that there's no reason for her to be doing it in that moment. She doesn't choose to look into others' pasts and she wasn't even focused on us at the time.

I think she can voluntarily call on the intended effects of the Resonance - the heightened senses "listening" for her opponent's next move - and everything else is an unwanted side effect she can't control.

Maybe the eye effect in that scene is just to emphasise or confirm that yes, it is her Resonant powers giving her these visions.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It doesn't feel deliberate to me.

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She's not arguing with Arenvald. She's berating him, immediately after talking to the WoL. Because he's been standing there berating her using his knowledge of her past from the vision he had of her at Baelsar's Wall, when she kidnapped Krile. Her eye doesn't just randomly light up. She consciously closes her eyes and reopens them, lighting it up of her own volition, as she has every time she has used it. Three sentences prior she'd just said, "Had a peek into my past, have you?" Which she said to the WoL. Her head's now facing Arenvald, but she's still thinking about the WoL.

Those are some good subtle observations of yours, though. We also know from the Pendants Echo vision we have while asleep in Shadowbringers( the one where we go to sleep righ after Ole Exarchy visits us after Ardbert singes his hand on us), that she could have been having Echo visions in her sleep as well, when she unconsciously channels her power.

Also, that's all I've been trying to say. She can call on the Resonance at any time. She just doesn't get to control the side effects, but she knows what they are and that they are likely to happen.

I appreciate people responding. I'd forgotten about Ardbert and every WoD having Echo visions at the Gnath colony. Were there more? I went back and checked the first time we meet Krile. Nothin' Kind of a shame.

I also find it kind of interesting that we have Echo visions for every Cardinal Virtue for those instanced battles where we control a WoD companion of Ardbert's. Even though the Cardinal Virtues no longer have the WoD's souls, as those were sacrificed to Minfilia to stop the Flood. I guess there's their residual selves in their damaged Crystals of Light though.

It's practically directly stated that Fordola has zero control of the Resonant and it's associated Echo abilities, she activley didn't want to be getting visions and they were still happening. Her precognition is also likely an always-on effect once she goes "Brilliant Conviction" like WoL does, it doesn't need to be activated on a moment-to-moment basis and she can't really control when it comes out, just like WoL breaking his own limits.

And she was most definitely not trying to do it in her cell, she was just waiting there to die.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It's practically directly stated

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It's directly speculated. Nothing concrete.

And she can control it with 100% ease, as evidenced from when we fought her with the aetherial siphon. We never directly control when the Echo buffs us, except in duty finder options to remove it.

She wasn't waiting to die. She was expecting it, but after everything, she is unwillingly to give up life. Whatever it takes. THAT is directly stated.

She does directly tell Lyse that there's no reason to keep her alive, but it's hard to say if she actually meant it or was just wallowing in self-pity.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

She's not arguing with Arenvald. She's berating him, immediately after talking to the WoL. Because he's been standing there berating her using his knowledge of her past from the vision he had of her at Baelsar's Wall, when she kidnapped Krile. Her eye doesn't just randomly light up. She consciously closes her eyes and reopens them, lighting it up of her own volition, as she has every time she has used it. Three sentences prior she'd just said, "Had a peek into my past, have you?" Which she said to the WoL. Her head's now facing Arenvald, but she's still thinking about the WoL.

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Arguing, berating, shouting in the general direction of... however you want to describe it, her immediate focus is on Arenvald. There is no indication to the viewer that her thoughts are still on the WoL - that's just your conjecture to support your take on it.

From a storytelling viewpoint, if they wanted to show her deliberately reading our mind in retaliation for our reading of hers, why then?

As you said, three sentences earlier she was directly speaking to us and angry at what we did. That is when it would make sense to demonstrate that she has control over her visions to a degree that we (and Krile as the "donor") don't even have ourselves as native Echo users.

Overall, while your take isn't impossible, it relies on what I can only see as a poor approach to storytelling.

As well as the timing of the flashback above, your interpretation is also based on the idea that Arenvald's observation of Fordola's condition is incorrect. If this was "reality", it's possible he's mistaken - but this is a story, and the writer has chosen to plant the idea of Fordola's visions being constant and uncontrollable. If this is misdirection, what purpose does it serve? Are we supposed to have misplaced pity for her briefly before she proves us wrong and demonstrates that she's in full control of those powers?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Also, that's all I've been trying to say. She can call on the Resonance at any time. She just doesn't get to control the side effects, but she knows what they are and that they are likely to happen.

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I don't think that's what you've been saying. You're trying to argue that she has control over those side effects too.

In your own words in your next post:

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

And she can control it with 100% ease, as evidenced from when we fought her with the aetherial siphon. We never directly control when the Echo buffs us, except in duty finder options to remove it.

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That fight is only evidence that she can control the heightened senses which are the intended effect of the Resonance. It is not evidence that she can control her visions, which are indicated to be an unwanted side effect.



It should also be noted that Krile, whose Echo is the basis for Fordola's power, doesn't have control over her sensitivity to "whispers of the soul" either. She's quite shaken after the first encounter with the Warriors of Darkness at the Gnath hive, and not just because of the Warriors:

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KRILE
The vision caught me unawares, and I was unprepared for their attack, but...I could hear the colony chattering all around us... They were so loud...so unbearably loud...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

that's just your conjecture to support your take on it.

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Unfortunately for you, there's multiple instances of us having Echo visions for people or places that aren't our direct focus. Like I said before, she has the vision when she actives the Resonance, though she's just turned her attention towards Arenvald, her mind and Echo vision are for us. Perhaps she was intending to read Arenvald's past to say something to shut him up, but got us instead.

As far as storytelling goes, it's only mild misdirection, and it's more just leaving room for the writer to change their mind about it, if they want to, as they do with a great many things. It's also to leave it to interpretation, so that players can have fun ruminating on it, as we are now. Personally though, I think it's just more a mishap with the cutscene direction. Like she has to look at Arenvald to talk to him, even though we were just the one who had an Echo vision of her. I think they chose to have it clear that she was speaking to Arenvald, because Echo visions have the benefit of not needing to be direct to make clear who they're about.

As for that, you're misunderstanding my response to Veloran. He's talking about her buffing herself with the buff she gets in the instanced battle at the Resonatorium, and trying to say, that like we can't control our Echo at all, she can't either. Which is just simply not true, as observed in the fight, we have to use the Siphon to essentially, "Turn Off" her abilities, and she reactivates them at will when she regains her focus. Basically, her Echo isn't always on, and she controls when it is, at least while she's conscious and able to focus.

As for how Krile's Echo works for Krile, that's cool and all, but the Resonant aren't subject to the same limitations.

This conversation did make me look back at one of your earlier posts, and I watched some of the other cutscenes. Of particular interest is the Price of Freedom, the scene right after Castrum Abania, where she holds her head to stop or quiet possible Echo visions from Lyse. It makes me realize, that yes, Fordola can control when she has visions, but it takes conscious effort. Eventually she can't sustain that effort and has visions, including when she sleeps.

It also made me think, what if it's not a conscious effort to turn on the Echo for a Resonant being, but effort to keep it turned off?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Unfortunately for you, there's multiple instances of us having Echo visions for people or places that aren't our direct focus.

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Would you like to list some of those? It's not very helpful just waving vaguely and going "yeah, there are examples that prove you wrong" without actually saying what they are.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Like I said before, she has the vision when she actives the Resonance, though she's just turned her attention towards Arenvald, her mind and Echo vision are for us. Perhaps she was intending to read Arenvald's past to say something to shut him up, but got us instead.

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And as I said before, it's purely your speculation that "her mind is for us" and that she is not (as I am reading it) focused on Arenvald when her Resonance unexpectedly throws her a vision of our past.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As for that, you're misunderstanding my response to Veloran. He's talking about her buffing herself with the buff she gets in the instanced battle at the Resonatorium, and trying to say, that like we can't control our Echo at all, she can't either. Which is just simply not true, as observed in the fight, we have to use the Siphon to essentially, "Turn Off" her abilities, and she reactivates them at will when she regains her focus. Basically, her Echo isn't always on, and she controls when it is, at least while she's conscious and able to focus.

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Firstly, you're again conflating "proof of control over her heightened senses in combat" with "proof of control over all aspects of the Resonance". There is no guarantee that because she can control her senses, she can also control the visions.

Secondly, we do not "turn off" her abilities at all - quite the opposite. We overwhelm them. If her gift is the aetherial equivalent of improving her hearing to listen for the slightest sound, then using the siphon on her is the equivalent of making a massive noise right in her ear and then attacking while she is deafened and reeling from the pain.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As for how Krile's Echo works for Krile, that's cool and all, but the Resonant aren't subject to the same limitations.

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Again, your speculation. We haven't really explored the differences between the Resonance and the Echo, and therefore the best reference until we are told otherwise is to compare how Krile's Echo works. And if Krile can't shut it out despite experiencing it all her life, we have no reason to assume Fordola can either.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

This conversation did make me look back at one of your earlier posts, and I watched some of the other cutscenes. Of particular interest is the Price of Freedom, the scene right after Castrum Abania, where she holds her head to stop or quiet possible Echo visions from Lyse. It makes me realize, that yes, Fordola can control when she has visions, but it takes conscious effort. Eventually she can't sustain that effort and has visions, including when she sleeps.

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I don't see how you can assume from that scene that she has control. She winces because she received an unpleasant vision - Lyse's anger at her actions - and it's probably compounding the guilt she's already feeling over her friends' deaths. That shows us she received it and it pains her, not that she might or might not have control over whether she receives it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It also made me think, what if it's not a conscious effort to turn on the Echo for a Resonant being, but effort to keep it turned off?

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And somehow we reach the same conclusion despite reading all the scenes differently. It seems quite possible to me that she is never in control of the visions and may need to wilfully hold them off - and her flash of anger at Arenvald is enough to break that concentration and let it slip through. It seems far more plausible to me than having her choose to read our mind at that point.

There's another example of an NPC having a vision of our past. Spoilers for the final role quest:

Cyella/Cylva has also seen our past in an Echo vision, though we don't know at what point this happened.

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Originally Posted by Cyella

The boy, Unukalhai─I have glimpsed him in your memories. He was a friend. Like him, I heeded the words of the Ascians and, that I might redress the balance, I chose to come here and hasten a rejoining of worlds.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's just you speculating bro.

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For Echo visions we have where we aren't directly focused on a person. Most recently, the scene in 5.0 where the Exarch comes to checks on us, and then leaves. We go to bed. In our sleep we have an Echo vision of his past, set in the future, of him reading Count Fortemps memoirs.


The Echo vision we have of him and Urianger, prompted only by us entering into his private chamber in the Crystal Tower where they discuss the ruse.

Part of the Echo vision we have, regardless of nationality, at each nation's send off ceremony, where we're focused on the leader, and we get their dialogue at Carteneau, only for the vision to switch over to the perspective of the Ascians, who the alliance leaders were not communicating with at all, likely marking when we fell unconscious due to the severity of that vision's pull. Which I suppose is actually the first time in the game that we have visions while unconscious.

The vision we have outside of the Ul'dahn adventurer's guild when we save the refugee woman from slavers. She is our focus, but the vision focus is set on two Ul'dahn noblemen, who were closeby, but out of her earshot, while she is bartering/talking to the dodo tenderloin salesman.

The Echo vision we have at the end of ARR while we are focused on the Scions, City State Leaders, and the jubilation, we have a vision of a dark version of the mothercrystal right before the quake and Bahamut screech or whatever.

There are more, but I think you get the idea. We don't have to be directly focused on anyone or anything to get an Echo vision of said person or thing. We just usually do.


As for how the Aetherial Siphon works in that fight, do the fight again. Every time she reactivates her Resonance, the screen flashes and the room becomes illuminated just like Ardbert when the WoDs use the Echo to restore their HP in that fight. The debuff she gets when we use the Siphon is, "Aether Sickness." Its description reads, "Overexposure to highly concentrated aether is preventing Resonation." Further, she literally casts a spell to activate her Resonance. It has a cast bar and everything. The spell name is, "Resonating Echo." So yes, we do turn them off. You're recognizing the mechanism for how we turn them off, but the point is, she loses her powers and must reactivate them consciously in order to use them.

As for your supposition that the Resonant must work on the same limitations as those whose Echo they borrow... well, no. Just look at Zenos. He may or may not have Krile's Echo, but he does more with the Echo than literally anyone else we know. Fordola's Resonance has allowed her to do more than just what is showcased in 4.0. In 4.1 she also uses it just like WoL and Arenvald to stop Tempering energy, and further than that, it allowed her to erect an aetheric barrier comparable to a very powerful version of Collective Unconscious. This idea is shown again with Zenos when he does combat against Gaius and Estinien. The Resonance allows him to create magic barriers with his hand, something he hadn't done before. I mention this because when Fordola activates the barrier she gains the buff, "Resonant."

You're trying to blend game play elements with the lore and they don't always mix in this case they probably don't. The device throws off her echo and when the effects wear off it reactivates. The cast bar is just a gameplay thing telling you to hit her again with the thing.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You're trying to blend game play elements with the lore and they don't always mix in this case they probably don't. The device throws off her echo and when the effects wear off it reactivates. The cast bar is just a gameplay thing telling you to hit her again with the thing.

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In this case they likely do, because it's Stormblood, and they were pretty big on mixing what's actually going on into the gameplay of the instanced battles.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You're trying to blend game play elements with the lore and they don't always mix in this case they probably don't. The device throws off her echo and when the effects wear off it reactivates. The cast bar is just a gameplay thing telling you to hit her again with the thing.

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Yes and no. The game does tell you, around the time you meet your starter city scion and they solve the mystery you have the echo, that you can see telegraphs because of the echo.

I would add to Iscah's perspective Fordola's body language whenever she has a vision. She winces just the same as the WoL does, every time. There's no bracing and then acting, which you would expect of someone taking a deliberate action.

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Originally Posted by Copyright_Theft

I would add to Iscah's perspective Fordola's body language whenever she has a vision. She winces just the same as the WoL does, every time. There's no bracing and then acting, which you would expect of someone taking a deliberate action.

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When Lyse runs in on her in Castrum Abania, and when she's about to give the order to fire on Specula Imperatoris, she places her hand beside her head, as if she's going to have a vision, but her eyes only wince, and she speaks while wincing. This is her bracing herself to stop a vision. Note, it's always the same side of her head that has the Resonant eye.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

This is her bracing herself to stop a vision.

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No, that is not a fact.

There is no proof that she is stopping the visions as opposed to simply receiving them.

If you are correct and she is in control, it could be interpreted as her stopping it.

If you are incorrect and she is not in control, it could be interpreted as her wincing from the pain of receiving it and not being able to stop it.

You cannot say it proves one thing or the other without other context.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Yes and no. The game does tell you, around the time you meet your starter city scion and they solve the mystery you have the echo, that you can see telegraphs because of the echo.

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I don't recall that ever being said - as far as I'm aware, the "telegraphs = Echo" thing has been a long-term fan theory but never stated within the story.

If battle-instance dialogue can be taken as canon, then it seems to be disproven by "When It Rains" (at the start of NG+ Shadowbringers Part 2 if you want to replay it). At one point Alphinaud calls out that he can sense a surge of aether coming, and then gets a stack marker on him, which would suggest that sensing incoming attacks isn't purely the realm of Echo-users. Detecting magical attacks might need some degree of aetherial sensitivity, and physical attacks might be just a matter of watching your opponent and guessing their attacks (but of course you can't see every single hit coming).

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, that is not a fact.

There is no proof that she is stopping the visions as opposed to simply receiving them.

If you are correct and she is in control, it could be interpreted as her stopping it.

If you are incorrect and she is not in control, it could be interpreted as her wincing from the pain of receiving it and not being able to stop it.

You cannot say it proves one thing or the other without other context.

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If we're going try and analyze things as banal as body language in a game with preset motions for character models, then it might as well be.

In reality it's an easter egg of sorts, that we view in hindsight as it relates to her ability to have visions. In line with the story as it was presented, we know she'd been through a procedure, but didn't know the effects. It's worth noting that it's the other hand that we(and she) clench our face with when a full blown vision occurs.

And look, I get it, you're not a fan of supposition that isn't your own, but pointing out the obvious to someone who's overanalyzed pretty much everything in this game doesn't make your points resound any better.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

For Echo visions we have where we aren't directly focused on a person. [...] We don't have to be directly focused on anyone or anything to get an Echo vision of said person or thing. We just usually do.

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So that's a long list of instances showing that our involuntary visions can be triggered by any kind of "aetherial memory residue" rather than that we have to be directly interacting with the subject, but a key thing there is that it's involuntary. We aren't seeking out a vision of one person and instead receiving something different, we're just getting a vision that we didn't call for either way.

I fail to see how that proves anything about whether Fordola deliberately chose to look in our memories or was really thinking about us while she appeared to be focused on Arenvald. If anything it suggests the opposite - again, that despite her focus on Arenvald she is still suceptible to an unexpected vision of someone else.



As for the fight where we use the siphon, I played it not long ago but I do have another alt approaching that point, and will have to pay attention.

I think it's unclear exactly what "Resonation" means in the context, though I think the noise analogy still applies - deafen her, and she can't listen to detect what you're doing. Overwhelm her with aether, and she can't detect those slight aetherial tells until she recovers and takes a moment to re-establish herself.

If you look at the cutscene for the following quest, Urianger explains that because Fordola seemed to be "uncommonly sensitive to aetherial fluctuations" he designed the siphon to "generate a massive disruption in the surrounding aether" which gives her the symptoms of aether sickness - which coincidentally or not is what our early fainting-during-Echo-visions gets mistaken for. Arenvald also compares the effect his visions have on him to aether sickness.

As for the "using the Echo" animation.. that bothers me at a larger scale because it seems to pop up in a few places and it doesn't work how our Echo works or we'd be unstoppable - there's story and gameplay segregation going on somewhere. The Warriors of Darkness can use it to revive themselves, and in the 4.4 solo fight with Sadu she seems to use it as well. (It's never outright stated but I think she's supposed to have the Echo - she's repeatedly called "udgan" which is earlier established as referring to people like Temulun who can "hear the gods" and is compared to the Echo.)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Part of the Echo vision we have, regardless of nationality, at each nation's send off ceremony, where we're focused on the leader, and we get their dialogue at Carteneau, only for the vision to switch over to the perspective of the Ascians, who the alliance leaders were not communicating with at all, likely marking when we fell unconscious due to the severity of that vision's pull. Which I suppose is actually the first time in the game that we have visions while unconscious.

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Most of our early visions are marked by being unconscious or at least asleep (as in the carriage ride at the beginning). I don't know if it always happens but we certainly seem to at least tune out of reality for some period of time, and - while I haven't gone through all the instances or anything - I redid the healer role quests last night and right up at Lv78 we evidently fell unconscious for long enough that Giott is worried we aren't waking up.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

In reality it's an easter egg of sorts, that we view in hindsight as it relates to her ability to have visions. In line with the story as it was presented, we know she'd been through a procedure, but didn't know the effects. It's worth noting that it's the other hand that we(and she) clench our face with when a full blown vision occurs.

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It's something that's clearer in hindsight either way. If she is having uncontrollable flashes of people's memories and emotions then you don't know that at the time either, but in hindsight you realise that there she is receiving Lyse's emotions. Her anger at Fordola's killing of her own comrades and probably her grief over Conrad's death - those things would compound Fordola's own regret and guilt over her actions.

She could be shutting it off but there's no sign to say that's the case. It may simply be making her head hurt. I didn't even consider there could be another reading of that scene - it was simply a clear reading to me (in hindsight of Arenvald's observation establishing that she's having visions) of what we are supposed to understand from it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

And look, I get it, you're not a fan of supposition that isn't your own, but pointing out the obvious to someone who's overanalyzed pretty much everything in this game doesn't make your points resound any better.

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So you're the sole expert who's overanalysed everything in the game... and where does that leave the rest of us lore-forum regulars?

I'm open to other theories, but you're not presenting anything that proves your point. Your "evidence" is not decisive - you seem to start from the core idea you want to prove, and cast the scenes in a light that supports your idea, even if they could also support a different interpretation.

Meanwhile you're dismissing the sort of conversations that we would normally take to be establishing a fact. Arenvald specifically brings up this idea that Fordola is having constant, painful visions - an idea that fits all previous evidence and serves no purpose to be introduced as a red herring - but you want to dismiss it because it doesn't fit your superior theory of what's really going on.

I am absolutely in favour of speculating and analysing what's happening, and if I really have gotten something completely wrong then I want to correct that misunderstanding and have the true facts established, but I'm not seeing that here. To me your approach feels more like ignoring the facts that don't suit your theory.

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she places her hand beside her head, as if she's going to have a vision, but her eyes only wince, and she speaks while wincing.

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There's no reason to believe that could only have been because of an Echo vision, Fordola was also getting unwanted feelings and thoughts from other people that intruded on her mind.

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At one point Alphinaud calls out that he can sense a surge of aether coming, and then gets a stack marker on him, which would suggest that sensing incoming attacks isn't purely the realm of Echo-users.

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In that case the Sin Eater is quite literally glowing with aether and clearly about to unleash a huge attack. In fact, Alphinaud tells you to gather around him not because he thinks he's the target and to disperse the force of the magic, but so he can cast a vulnerability down buff on the entire group.

If you were to look through every battle in the game I'm quite sure you could find many instances where NPCs call out attacks before they happen, but that isn't evidence against telegraphs being a result of the Echo when there are obviously countless instances of telegraphs that cannot possibly be reasonably explained through pure intuition or simply feeling a buildup of aether, especially since so many markers are extremely precise in telling WoL where and when the danger will be, beyond what you could know with the naked eye in advance.

As for Fordola's vision, I really don't see why she would suddenly intentionally instigate a vision about WoL while being in the middle of talking to someone else. Really, I think the only person who is suggested to be able to intentionally receive visions is Zenos, and that's only implied by how he knows WoL will soon be leaving the Source after narrowly missing him at the place where he fought Elidibus and received the communication with G'raha.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'd have to rewatch the scene to be sure, but I never got the impression that Fordola deliberately looked into our past. It's just part of her constantly-triggering visions.

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This. Fordola welcomes her prison cell because it stops the visions from happening. How she is able to harness the power and keep it from driving her insane, and/or incapacitating herself in battle like the WoL is another story.