"Revamp/Rework" obsession

I do not get excited when every other patch FFXIV announces they are revamping or reworking something.

Its one thing to make a little tweak here and there to improve something, but to completely "rework/revamp" jobs and systems over and over makes it come off as someone has no idea what they are doing. It also isnt enjoyable as a player to "go re-learn" a job, class or system every other patch. Jobs should be getting improved with the expansions, not reworked over and over.

I do not buy into the mindset "this is an MMO, its common place" because it is bad practice. It takes away from the development of actual new content.

In fact, content has been steadily getting reduced.


Dungeons:

I have been playing since before ARR's release, we have gotten a significant reduction in dungeon count.
2.0: 19
3.0: 13
4.0 10
5.0: 6

We have seen a reduction in raid quality.

The raids are now just an arena with a boss. They even removed the door boss to prevent underperforming party members from participating in the harder fights.

Raids:
2.0: (First introduction to Savage raids.)
3.0: (Door boss "Faust")
4.0: (Door Boss' "Exdeath, Kefka, M/F)
5.0: None


Trials:

Trials have been drastically reduced and cut since 2.0
(2.0 is so high because of things like Gilgamesh, Odin etc.)

2.0: 16
3.0: 7
4.0: 9
5.0: 5


Job quests:

In 5.0 job quests were reduced to role quests.

....and nothing was added in its place. We just got fewer unique quests with literally no trade off.

Jobs weapons reduction

GNB/DNC do not have access to all primal weapons glamour.

Race reduction:

-Reintroduction to gender locked races
-More importantly, Hrothgar and Viera dont even have access to all hairstyles ***OR*** all headgear. Both. not just one, but both.


We have seen a reduction in Maps. The doors were 7 doors for the first 3, not to mention 4.0 saw the introduction of not only "Wheel of Fortune" optional dungeons, but also the Thiefs maps bonus dungeons. 5.0 is reduced down to only a 5

Maps:

2.0: Introduction of unhidden maps
3.0: Aquapolis 7 Doors
4.0: Lost Canals 7 doors, Thief's map 7 doors, Shifting Altars Bonus dungeon.
5.0: Lyhe 5 doors.

(5.4 hint at wheel of fortune? Still. Only 5 doors. This is fewer rewards. (Less chance at goblins/whiskers/etc. And no "double or nothing" does not make up for this, unless the % for rewards were increased, which they are not, so you're more likely to get nothing than double.)

Levequests:

We havent had new battle levequests since 3.0.

Sure some people dont care about this but some do, the point is not if you care, but that its cut content in favor of this obsession of "rework/revamp" nonsense.

Guildhests:

We havent gotten new guildhests since the launch of ARR.

And with all this "rework" and "revamp" they still havent touched The Praetorium and Castrum. Something thats been a major complaint since 2.0.

No, "main story roulette" is not what those two dungeons are or were made for.

That is not a fix.

In fact its only making the situation worse. Those dungeons are ***story*** dungeons, they are not designed to be "I'm going afk and getting more than half a level for not playing FFXIV."


They also still havent fixed housing either. Which has also been a complaint since its release in 2.x.

Looks like you're tying revamping content with less content as a whole- certainly redoing something takes resources but having to redo MCH for example wouldn't exclusively explain the difference from 2.0 to 5.0 as were revamps between those points as well. That and also looks like you do want revamps of some content, just that the content that has received it you didn't feel worth it for whatever reason.

All in all to say the devil it seems you're focusing on is the reduced content and not the redo in and of itself as a concept. Like if you revamped say chocobo content such that it had new content that had some relevance and gameplay content that's not like revamping say a perfectly well enjoyed job (say if they revamped Paladin entirely, I hardly hear people complain about that job). There was a feeling of changing a job you liked away from that feeling but you also mentioned some items that you would appreciate some changes to, so it's not revamping that was bad but what that you didn't appreciate.

If the content is really bad I think it's worth it as while not exactly like rotting food I still think it has a vaguely similar effect. Rotten apple spoils the bunch, unlike food it doesn't have to spread but it can mar the experience which might feel like spoil spreading. That and sometimes revamps / redos can provide a much better and or deeper experience, beyond polishing it up and making the whole package look well done.

I have also noticed some reduced content points, and am personally hoping it's because they're preparing something cool - maybe the expansion is going to have some neat new feature or expanded something further than they would normally (say if they wanted to end the main story they've been working on so far with a huge huge bang). Now of course it's possible they're just trying to save money (number of possible reasons, some eh some reasonable), or they're moving it over to other another project lol.

I'm struggling to understand what the overall point here is, you say that revamps and reworks are detrimental to the game but then twist it into a rant about lack of content, I stand wholly confused. The job reworks aren't worked on by the same team who makes those other content types anyways so I'm not sure what the rework point has to do with the main problem points you seem to be reaching for here.

I just want to say that imo we don't need jobs reworks so often. Some jobs were changed a lot instead of adjusted, turning them into something inferior (DRK). Some jobs are changed from one abomination to another each expansion. And for example PLD and RDM are peak job design, and probably 6.0 changes will ruin them, because it will introduce forced changes.

I would like to point out that this is only 5.3 so the raw numbers your using for total trials/dungeons are slightly misleading as 5.4 and 5.5 will both likely have more of each. Also, we have 6 trials or were you not counting Memoria because it only has the Extreme mode?

Yes, battle content has been trimmed. Yes, we have two races that feel unfinished. However, blaming the job reworks for it isn't likely the source.

Flying in 2.0 zones, greater community advertising tools like fellowships and the new FC recruitment tool, world visit and expanded cross world party tools, and all those QoL changes coming to almost everything in 5.4. Those all likely had a hand in it. Back end changes are rarely glamorous, structures for future systems take time, and maybe we just haven't seen the results.

What I'm saying is there are better theories on dungeon reduction than blaming the job tweaks.

at this point i don't even know why OP even bothers playing the game anymore, everything seems to annoy him. while resources were taken out of the things he mentions they were also put back in in other places too, but he neglects to point this out.

also "door bosses" in raids are exhausting to me.

the devs have a schedule, which means they do not have unlimited time to make as much things everywhere.
more money/people will not solve the problem either because you will hit a wall as well in that regard.

OP should just give up now and move on to something else or come back next expac or two later.

Repeat after me: ff16

So, when will the forums get a thumbs down button? At least make your rant relevant to your title post, or your original complaint, for that matter.

We've had a lot of stuff taken, but equally so we've had plenty added since ARR. If I were to be as pedantic as this OP, then I would say:

-Deep Dungeon content 3.x / 4.x
-Lords of Vermillion (3.x)
-New GATEs (3.x/4.x/5.x)
-Unique Blessed Tools (3.x, 4.x - I guess ARR had luminary tools, not that they had a glow or anything!)
-Ishgard Restoration (5.x)
-Doman Reconstruction (4.x)
-Ultimate content (4.x/5.x)
-Eureka/Bozja which features its own zone and unique mechanics therein (Logograms/Lost Actions + Baldesion Arsenal + Castrum Lacus Litore) - (4.x/5.x)
-Role Quests, which I would absolutely argue has as much if not more substance of lore/story than what Job Quests in preceding expansions had.
-Spearfishing (4.x/5.x)
-Custom Deliveries (4.x/5.x)
-Relics for DoH/L (5.x)
-Ocean Fishing (5.x)
-Airships/Submarines (3.x/4.x/5.x)
-Diadem (3.x / 5.x)
-Squadrons (Command Missions)/Trusts (3.4 originally, expanded in 4.x & 5.x for Trusts)
-Limited Jobs

I don't know about revamps/reworks, but that just shows the game has been and is still maturing in many aspects. Even with reductions in these areas the overall substance and quality of the content has improved, dramatically.. Compare the quality of dungeons back in ARR to HW, SB, or even Shadowbringers for that matter. Easily shows.

I am amused that the word obsession was used. Quite a hefty dose of projection.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

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Much of your gripes are a combination of development choices along with player influence. Let's take dungeons for example. If you were to create a four-man dungeon that has three paths to the final boss, and each path represents a level of difficulty (easy, normal, hard). The path you take will also determine the HP, attack power, and defense of the final boss along with the mechanics he throws out at you. Which path do you think over a prolonged course of time would be the path that is ran the most?

Now this isn't an example to prove that players will choose the path of least resistance. What it actually is meant to portray is which paths they are wasting time developing since they are ran the fewest. With this in mind, a big reason why we don't have more dungeons is because players who don't care to run them are in the majority. I would not be surprised going forward if the amount of dungeons continues to go down to every other patch, to eventually 1 or 2 per expansion and then possibly only solo/trust supported instances remain. 4-man content in general is phasing out, though it will always be there for new players. For veterans though, there are fewer things most of them could enjoy less than running yet another dungeon.

Everything else you mentioned can all be considered old content. It's been around as long as the game has been. Since then other content has been added: PoTD, HoH, Masked Carnival, Unreal trials, Eureka, Diadem, Bozja are all time consuming content that you have not mentioned, and this content would not exist if they insisted on sticking to allocating resources towards dungeons, job quests, leviquests, etc. Granted a lot of time still goes into designing high-end duties and alliance raids, but this is very popular content that players very much look forward to doing, and have a high replay factor as well.

Reworks are just fine if it is for the better. As newer jobs are released, so are the mechanics that drive those jobs and the others become outdated. If you've ever tossed something on your UI while leveling an alt and thought, "Hey! This is a sweet addition I should have thought of sooner. I am also going to add this to my main job." then you should understand the desire to rework jobs a great deal. Some jobs NEED a rework though. There are aspects about them that make zero sense and the job, and enjoyment of that job suffers. Just ask long time ASTs that finally hung up their globe this expansion. MNKs and the other healers are also all on the verge of pursuing different paths.

MMO change over time. You have to adapt to those changes, or bye bye sub.

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Originally Posted by Kiurai

I'm struggling to understand what the overall point here is, .

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its not complicated. They are spending absurd amounts of time and resources doing things no one or little to no one is asking for.

Who asked for a gathering collectables revamp? How is that even remotely relevant. It is perfectly fine as it is.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I would like to point out that this is only 5.3 so the raw numbers your using for total trials/dungeons are slightly misleading as 5.4....

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5.4 is going to add 1-2 dungeons tops, and 1 trial, maybe 2. They arent misleading at all. Especially when the previous expansions had significantly more content.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

So, when will the forums get a thumbs down button? At least make your rant relevant to your title post, or your original complaint, for that matter.
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Its not a rant, its sharing facts. If you dont like the facts, thats not my fault.

Everything you mentioned beyond what I mentioned is done in every expansion. In fact you completely failed to mention content from 2.0. No expansion had more "additional" things added than another. More importantly 5.0. I would argue had less done, but I'm not going to spend twice as long pulling those facts, just so you can beg for a thumbs down button.


I know you people all beg anyone who wants to see the game improve to just quit, but there are things I enjoy about the game, I even made a thread saying thanks to a few things they finally are maybe doing right. The forums are not social media. If you dont agree with something you should ignore it and dont like it. Thats how the forums work. If you have a counter statement, say it with respect and dignity. When you sling insults and nonsense, your post/thread will be ignored. Not by the community, they clearly love that kind of behavior, but by the moderators... you know , the people who matter.

I've been here since before 2.0, quite a bit of what I've asked for has been added and considered. Coincidence I dont know. I just know there is way more that needs to be done for this game to start being clean. Its such a mess. Still fun, but definitely a mess.


Also, anyone who visits the forums enough to know the posting patterns of someone over months of time, you really need a new hobby. The forums are not social media, they are a place to give feedback to FFXIV. Not a place to visit daily and insult other people, and farm likes.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

its not complicated. They are spending absurd amounts of time and resources doing things no one or little to no one is asking for.

Who asked for a gathering collectables revamp? How is that even remotely relevant. It is perfectly fine as it is.



5.4 is going to add 1-2 dungeons tops, and 1 trial, maybe 2. They arent misleading at all. Especially when the previous expansions had significantly more content.

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Translation: content I am not interested in = bad and waste of time. Please tailor every piece of content to my personal tastes, SE.

It's not like this living, breathing MMO changes and flux to keep its base alive is doing exactly that. It has to always be 2015 because change is scary.

You're not sharing "facts" you're clearly ranting.

This game is BARELY reworking or revamping stuff, not even close to what you're making it sound like.
It's one of the areas were Square actually does an amazing job compared to most other MMO devs.
Let's compare with the most popular other MMO. World of Warcraft. The Devs constantly creates new systems for every expansion and then deletes it while barely learning anything of what made it good/bad.
Square does NOT do that. They do small touch ups, Dragoon has pretty much been the same class since HW except that they've fixed some issues with it and they've added a few more abilities. There's very few examples of classes being "remade" so you have to RELEARN it. It has happened but Square very rarely goes there.

This thread is just a mess, especially since you started off with the whole "Square pls dont rework/revamp" stuff only to make it about lack of content? What?
If you want to discuss lack of content then start another thread for that.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Translation: content I am not interested in = bad and waste of time. Please tailor every piece of content to my personal tastes, SE.

It's not like this living, breathing MMO changes and flux to keep its base alive is doing exactly that. It has to always be 2015 because change is scary.

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Pretty much, we somehow are still stuck in this mentality that 3 dungeons a patch automatically means good content, (Don't get me wrong It would be nice to go back to that on top of everything else, but that seems to be unrealistic at this point) despite the attempts to diversify.

We had gotten Deep Dungeons, Eureka, Bozja for combat as well as a lot of content done to ensure that crafting and gathering isn't considered side content (it still kinda is, but a lot of strides had been made to mitigate that) such as the Firmament, Deliveries, Ocean Fishing, Diadem, etc.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

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I see the humor was missed here.. But, anyway....

No this is clearly a rant!

Is this also where we completely neglect the fact that Shadowbringers still has an additional major patch on top of 5.4?

In fact, my point was that whilst we've seen fewer dungeons, trials, and raids, those resources have still been spent bringing us fairly decent content. Some of it a hit, some of it a miss, and in fact with many of these cuts in mind quality has at least exceeded that of previous expansions as far as dungeons and trials go if I were to assert my opinion.

Do I think everything is perfect? No!
Do I think they can do additional content? Absolutely, the open world is utterly barren 90% of the time

A forum is a community / collective group of people that share ideas, engage in debate, and give feedback, so by definition it is indeed Social Media. Not sure what gave you the idea that I was insulting, or farming for likes, or anyone you quoted for that matter. [Edit]- That said my comment regarding 'pedantry' was to highlight how concerned the post was with minor details, whilst neglecting the substance of the content, or the content added, hence the highlight of the bulk of content added in each respective expansion. Development resources have just been spent developing and working on other areas of content which otherwise wasn't included in the base game. I guess if you took insult to that I will apologize. That being said just because you didn't ask for, or want content, reworks, or revamps for that matter, it doesn't mean that other people haven't asked for it. I loved crafting and gathering for that matter throughout Heavensward, it has one of the more unique and intricate systems for crafting when compared to most games. Yet they've still done several reworks on it to where I find it disengaging. But I understand maybe a larger portion of the community thought otherwise and wanted simplification of it.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

5.4 is going to add 1-2 dungeons tops, and 1 trial, maybe 2. They arent misleading at all. Especially when the previous expansions had significantly more content.

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There are two more weapons in the weapon series, Emerald and Diamond, that will end up as trials bringing our trial total up by two to 8. Not a reduction at all.

As for dungeons yes, we will get two more dungeons, a two dungeon reduction total not the four dungeon reduction that you're currently highlighting. This is the reason I called your numbers misleading.

Also, what have they been doing with all that dungeon time?

Bozja, equivalent to a Eureka zone only with actual levelling progress possible to ease the deep dungeon being cut. Comes with the Castrum engagement which is similar to Baldesion Arsenal. Will there be more Bozja zones? Highly Likely.

Ocean Fishing, basically a gatherer's dungeon. Not everyone's cup of tea but it features unique weather patterns, the passage of time, small assets for fish, and all the new fish have behaviors that all had to be tested out.

Ishgard Restoration, the timed rebuilding of a housing ward complete with seasonal and progressive leaderboards, zone progression fates, dozens of new crafting recipes, a new type of craft with new craft statuses, and assets upon assets upon assets required. You can toss the Diadem rework in here just as an added bonus.

Unreal, rotating updated primal content with connected Faux Hollows minigame.

2.0 Flying, something they said in the past they didn't want to do for various reasons including the amount of work and testing to make sure zone maps didn't break.

Small systems, like Fellowships, the Guild Recruitment tool, Fashion items (i.e. currently just Parasols), and the updates to things like Gpose and Perform.

This doesn't include any of the upcoming changes promised with 5.4 where it really doesn't look like a single system was spared a QoL look. Nor does it take into account that at some point during this they had to transition from working into an office to a remote environment which cost them untold hours of development time and led to how many scrapped projects? I'm not saying that as a 'give them a pass' I'm saying that as a reality. We obviously lost the All Saints event to it, they were very upfront about that. We experienced a delay of months that had to be recouped somehow. How many non-visible projects were quietly put aside? Things they'd maybe only teased in passing or hadn't yet mentioned that they had to let go of in favor of smaller or more critical projects?

Lastly, the roulette map that you mention not existing, it'll be around in 5.4. Stormblood didn't start with Shifting Alters either, it was added partway through.

I'm not totally disagreeing that this expansion feels a little light in terms of content but when you sit down and really look at it, they've done more work this expansion on things that aren't front facing than either of the previous two. It just seems it's come at the cost of content that you prefer. I'd rather they keep trying new things, even if those things might not be my cup of tea. That's how we get deep dungeons and roulette wheel maps. Who knows, maybe we'll see some nifty boss rush mini content next.

Not that I dislike reworks when they're needed (good lord do healers need actual engagement after 5.0 slashed what remained), but the lack of content I'll agree with. I *hate* unending, unchanging grinding. MMOs thrive on grinding, but it's best when hidden cleverly behind an illusion of some variety. Eureka (and FATES, really) is field mob grinding, one of the most egregious and difficult to hide types of grinding. Shadowbringers content is largely unvarnished grinding. Deep Dungeons at the very least had a sense of progression, of pseudo random floors, monsters getting more lethal and requiring steadily increasing skill the deeper you got. Now that got rolled into Field Mob Grinder, because apparently people like bashing their faces against FATES more than that. Diadem is grinding the same 5 nodes a million times. Ishgard is grinding the same one recipe a million times. It's not just one or two things being "not my cup of tea", SHB has replaced nearly all of their expansion side content with blatant grinding. I'm displeased with that.

Agreed The game seems to get less and less but i dont fault the jobs for that idk where all this extra resources go but it aint the content

OP why do you even play this game? You have so many threads like this. You seem to have a strong dislike for the majority of this game. Why not spend your money on something you enjoy instead?

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

I just want to say that imo we don't need jobs reworks so often. Some jobs were changed a lot instead of adjusted, turning them into something inferior (DRK). Some jobs are changed from one abomination to another each expansion. And for example PLD and RDM are peak job design, and probably 6.0 changes will ruin them, because it will introduce forced changes.

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I cant agree with you more on this one.Something like 3.0 BRD, yeah, But I kind of fear, like you do that a job like rdm/pld will get the chopping block very soon, even if they are reliable and thematically well done.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I cant agree with you more on this one.Something like 3.0 BRD, yeah, But I kind of fear, like you do that a job like rdm/pld will get the chopping block very soon, even if they are reliable and thematically well done.

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Not saying I can't be wrong but I don't imagine they will purposefully do anything to Paladin or Red Mage to 'greatly' change it, in terms of it's core DNA. Of course they'll add something new but I don't imagine that's going to be a MCH redesign to a job that is already well received.

Say unlike before a lot of people were complaining about healers not healing enough and so they did some changes (I believe due to that), but of course those changes just made different issues lol.

Also would agree that Paladin feels quite nice, it's my favorite job. I wouldn't mind some more big boom spells since I feel that gives it a holy tank (actual tank, not the generic mmo term) / holy juggernaut vibe, which is quite fun, and perhaps a shield skill (shield bash maybe getting some love, since we've low blow already) or a way to use clemency without it being such a harsh punishment to our damage, but still a job I quite very much like. I also have a dream that Paladin may one day get the lightning spear kind of attack from Dark Souls (what one of the knights uses in HW to kill our bro, but holy looking instead).

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Also, anyone who visits the forums enough to know the posting patterns of someone over months of time, you really need a new hobby. The forums are not social media, they are a place to give feedback to FFXIV. Not a place to visit daily and insult other people, and farm likes.

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Clearly SE isn't much interested in feedback, I don't think they have actually been on this forum in years and most people recognize that and have moved on. The only people on this forum who are left don't have much interest in feedback either and think the game is perfect the way it is and you're just a "stupid troll" who's trying to ruin their game. It honestly feels like they are taking your opinions as a personal attack. Trust me guys, SE isn't reading this stuff you don't have anything to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Not saying I can't be wrong but I don't imagine they will purposefully do anything to Paladin or Red Mage to 'greatly' change it, in terms of it's core DNA. Of course they'll add something new but I don't imagine that's going to be a MCH redesign to a job that is already well received.

Say unlike before a lot of people were complaining about healers not healing enough and so they did some changes (I believe due to that), but of course those changes just made different issues lol.

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I wish I could be as optimistic as you sometimes, but I've seen a whole lot of "adjustments" since 2.0 launch. I really do believe that they will just unnecessarily chop jobs up to make others in the role feel more safe at night having a "slice of that", Thats usually all we see every expansion. Sometimes they take it too far, and have to do a MCH or a 4.0 reversion like BRD. I hope that MNK will get the proper attention it deserves in 5.4

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I wish I could be as optimistic as you sometimes, but I've seen a whole lot of "adjustments" since 2.0 launch. I really do believe that they will just unnecessarily chop jobs up to make others in the role feel more safe at night having a "slice of that", Thats usually all we see every expansion. Sometimes they take it too far, and have to do a MCH or a 4.0 reversion like BRD. I hope that MNK will get the proper attention it deserves in 5.4

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I can usually see what feedback lead to a change, or at least feel lines could be drawn, so in that way I feel a bit optimistic I guess. There are moments where it does appear SE put cotton in their ears, but I don't feel that's the standard. Call me out on it if the next expansion doesn't do something for healer's, I feel they'll try to address it then.

Part of the issue is it appears they plan long in advance so any changes require sneaking it in very slowly overtime or huge effort to detour the train. So if you think of your feedback having like a six month /minimum/ turn around you might see stuff connect more. Also it might come in a slightly different shapes than expected.

I am also interested to see what happens to monk, I am curious how much of the DNA will be preserved while they make the GL easier to manage.

Didn't say anything really important but also wanted to add I did edit my other post a little after you quoted (added some lines about PLD) :D.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I can usually see what feedback lead to a change, or at least feel lines could be drawn, so in that way I feel a bit optimistic I guess. There are moments where it does appear SE put cotton in their ears, but I don't feel that's the standard. Call me out on it if the next expansion doesn't do something for healer's, I feel they'll try to address it then.

Part of the issue is it appears they plan long in advance so any changes require sneaking it in very slowly overtime or huge effort to detour the train. So if you think of your feedback having like a six month /minimum/ turn around you might see stuff connect more. Also it might come in a slightly different shapes than expected.

I am also interested to see what happens to monk, I am curious how much of the DNA will be preserved while they make the GL easier to manage.

Didn't say anything really important but also wanted to add I did edit my other post a little after you quoted (added some lines about PLD) :D.

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Oh yeah sunlight spear faith build(\o/ praise the sunbro), one of my favs in OG Dark Souls for sure. I think PLD is pretty good, a little bit of crazy on the holy attack magic spamming though(not accurate to FF PLD at all btw). After their current kit i cannot think of anything they could give PLD like literally. Anything thematic(and FF historically accurate) would really just cause people to have a surprised pikachu face. Like literally all thats left is a raise and esuna like ability. I reallly really have a hard time believing they will actually have the balls to do that with how at least what i think the majority of tanks here feel they base their balance on with the tanks and kind of predicting within the framework of what they seem content as "balanced" amongst the tanks right now. Color me surprised if they do though. I feel more like they are working to get rid of self healing on tanks. This would be an interesting job reveal if they did this.

Didn't know you were an elf under that helmet..

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Originally Posted by RTX3080

Didn't know you were an elf under that helmet..

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Yeah Estinien's unmasking was pretty cool in HW

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Originally Posted by Kiurai

I'm struggling to understand what the overall point here is, you say that revamps and reworks are detrimental to the game but then twist it into a rant about lack of content, I stand wholly confused. The job reworks aren't worked on by the same team who makes those other content types anyways so I'm not sure what the rework point has to do with the main problem points you seem to be reaching for here.

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I think they were pointing out the time and resources going to revamp and reworks should be spent elsewhere like content with dungeons, leves, and guildheist. Of course, I could be way off and be completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

I think they were pointing out the time and resources going to revamp and reworks should be spent elsewhere like content with dungeons, leves, and guildheist. Of course, I could be way off and be completely wrong.

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Pretty sure your synopsis is correct, as pointed out that although we got less of the usual content, we have been getting more side content related things, ala more things to do that arent always the same things we used to always get. I honestly on one hand do kind of agree, but at the same times things like dungeons to me, like well if its a story dungeon its fine, but optional dungeons like revisiting this area but going the oppositte way with entirely different mobs/etc is kind of just doing something just to do it? Maybe the weekly grind could change? Thats a formula they havent bothered changing throughout, but it also keeps the dungeons from going entirely extinct. How many people really enjoy daily dungeon grinding formula? I dont know

You only have to look as far as FFXI to guess where the future of FFXIV lies. More minor map updates that utilize existing map building assets featuring enemies that are also reused assets, or assets with different textures/skins over existing asset skeletons. Modular alterations of existing armor sets for drops. Besides, why dump tons of cash into developing additional content when people drop $$$ on mogstation just to /songbird in LimLom with the new moneyfashion.

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Originally Posted by Doki

You only have to look as far as FFXI to guess where the future of FFXIV lies. More minor map updates that utilize existing map building assets featuring enemies that are also reused assets, or assets with different textures/skins over existing asset skeletons. Modular alterations of existing armor sets for drops. Besides, why dump tons of cash into developing additional content when people drop $$$ on mogstation just to /songbird in LimLom with the new moneyfashion.

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Well to be fair, if its one thing ive learned from playing this game so long, its that if i were to make an MMO the very first system i would build up would be a tailer/clothing customization system. That seems to be what many are more interested in than anything else. Get that and a great modular crafting/resource gathering mechanic out the gate(more leaning towards survival games for crafting usefulness, with probably a levelling system similar to this games Then after I got these systems working as good as a fashion designer tool kit, I would work on making the combat extremely engaging and customizable. Seems like how you would make a game without having to pump clothing sets in the cash shop every few months, people would just create their own clothing with things like sleeve templates, and the best part the stats wouldnt matter either, just have an equippable like a bellt with higher stat values that determines your defense or something.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Oh yeah sunlight spear faith build(\o/ praise the sunbro), one of my favs in OG Dark Souls for sure. I think PLD is pretty good, a little bit of crazy on the holy attack magic spamming though(not accurate to FF PLD at all btw). After their current kit i cannot think of anything they could give PLD like literally. Anything thematic(and FF historically accurate) would really just cause people to have a surprised pikachu face. Like literally all thats left is a raise and esuna like ability. I reallly really have a hard time believing they will actually have the balls to do that with how at least what i think the majority of tanks here feel they base their balance on with the tanks and kind of predicting within the framework of what they seem content as "balanced" amongst the tanks right now. Color me surprised if they do though. I feel more like they are working to get rid of self healing on tanks. This would be an interesting job reveal if they did this.

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\o/

Praise the sun! I knew we had a connection, must be we are sunbros lol. I did a lot of gold (yellow) and blue phantom work, I tried red phantom content but I felt guilty XD. Less guilty with the gray / rat covenant though, something funny about watching people run around your maze :D.

Certainly not quote the most stereotypical FF Paladin to wield so much magic offensive magic as a core part of their identity, but I think it's still cool lol. I am okay with that, since I find they're diverging a little in the grand / strong way (if you diverge and make it look worse that's not great :p).

I could see them giving esuna without too much of a balance issue, well an esuna like ability. For raise the only thing I think that could make it work is say if the raise ability shared a cooldown with your hallowed ground, I think that would make it balanced since in effect you only ever use HG to live through the unlive-able. So like Paladin might be able to raise someone with a temporary full life shield and like half mana, but it consumes their HG (which is a pretty big deal).

For Paladin, since we kind of mentioned it already I thought of some random ideas (I didn't put too much effort into thinking of balance, though I made notes here and there about permutations and or ideal balance, definitely more of fire starter / spark kit then something you'd copy 100%, but that's how I generally think.. since I don't almost ever put potency numbers into ideas as I assume it's better to think SE might get an inspiration over want to copy something exactly. Not knocking those who go to that effort though, I just assume they'll only use the 'concept' / vague 'theme', if anything of course, so that's what I focus on)-

Shield Toss upgrade that turns shield toss into Blessed Lance, casting time ability. When interrupted it'll launch a small spear of holy energy that deals a little more damage than the shield toss would have, has a greater range than shield toss, doesn't trigger cooldown (so if you were moving it would launch out exactly like shield toss used to, but look cooler and just generally be a bit more effective / easier to use). If you full cast it it'll deal more damage in an aoe with substantial enmity (and gives you the full drawing back and tossing like Zeus imagery animation, bigger bolt of energy of course), 10+ second cooldown- during this time you can still use the small lance (button still interactable) but you can't long cast it (going back to the general shield toss vibes, of course slightly upgraded). For a short time after a full cast of Blessed Lance you can cast Divine Descent or Divine Ascent (that's not two abilities, just different name options for the same ability lol), an ability that replaces intervene (paladin's movement ability, doesn't share cooldowns, can only be cast once and then turns back to intervene). Divine Descent will cause the Paladin to 'disapparate' like Noctis (into energy) and then reappear at the target either sword in ground super hero landing style or sword raised high to the sky, where a holy nova will explode, has further range than normal intervene (extra points if it gives the sense of impact from above). Damage to be balanced such that you don't hard cast in your single target rotation, but Requiescat will allow you to use it without casting time which would make the damage worth more than a single holy spirit (and then go on 'cooldown'), meanwhile the other time you would use it is either the start of a long pull (charge up, throw spear, then mega slam down on their face and begin the train) or during your aoe rotations (as both the lance and the descent would cause AoE damage). Both abilities not requiring new buttons, since Paladin already has loads of buttons lol, and both skills break up the rotation a little (one less holy spirit, a little bit more action in the magic phase, and your AoE rotation both physical and magical get a bit of a new thing to do).

Since we talked about raise, might see Angel's Grace (yes, meant to sound like Angel Whisper lol) - which shares cooldown with Hallowed Ground. Raises the target instantly with 100% of Paladin's max hp as a shield (lasts 5-10 seconds) and 100% mp shield (lasts 5-10 seconds as well, mp shield acts just like hp shields do.. but for mp, so they can use it or lose it lol). May make the hp and mp fade, so then 10 seconds would make more sense and certainly feel like grace was leaving you lol (say 10% a second the shield mp and hp degrade).

For Esuna might suggest Keepsake (don't love the name, but can't think of something better at this second- maybe someone can come with a better name lol), costs 25 oath, acts like Warden's Paeon but has no timer and Paladin may only give one out at a time. Also has a cooldown (that begins on cast completed, not when consumed). May cast keepsake on a covered target for free (cooldown will trigger of course).

Another idea someone else suggested to break up the spam of holy spirit in the Requiescat rotation was that clemency would increase the potency of the next holy spell during the buff window, which could be a nice way to occasionally be able to use clemency without it being naughty (currently a pure dps loss lol).

Because I love Confiteor and would like to see concepts like that, also thought of a Judgement spell that works on a huge rotation and continues to give Paladin that sort of graceful juggernaut tank. Like Hallowed Ground is on a big cooldown, Paladin has some big tools but they tend to have a cycle of a niche use. Judgement would come around like Hallowed Ground but be like Confiteor in that it smacks them right up side the head pretty hard. You could bind this to a few mechanics, like atonement or a new clemency mechanic that means you use it sometimes but not too much. But the basic imagery I have in mind is Paladin's shield in the air behind themselves a little, opening up a portal and then the most aggressive holy thor yamato cannon beam comes out and flattens your target (almost like an Ahk Morn, but this would come from an angle behind you, from a sort of portal / summoning rune symbol emanating with your shield, and I think might look better if it was one large beam with equidistant beams outside the main beam that were smaller and merging into the main beam, like it was being fed from smaller sources, while it was all rotating lol). Paladin not held in position the entire time, so there will be a few moments where your shield is melting the ground with heaven's wraith (sort of speak) while you're running around doing your own thing. To be more than just big damage there could be a series of sort of pulse waves that washes over a large area from the target (3-4), leaving a sort of glittering faint dust cloud, giving allies a stacking purified effect (heals the person for each action they take, first few pulses healing only a tiny bit but the last few before the stacks fall off would be not that bad- wont replace a healer but if you've a full party of 8 and everyone gets hit by the purification then that's a good deal in terms of total hp healed).

Would like to see Passage of Arms get some cute interaction, I do like the skill so not a complaint just thinking more toy room. Like while active a few of your skills will replace like dancer's dance steps, where you can use your combos to grow the size of the wings and another to change the wing shape to a dome (big wings coming from you that encircle the area around you). If they're feeling crazy they can let you do attacks from this state (again could use the dancer concept, like Phoenix replaces your ruin on SMN - so for Passage of Arms it might be like holy transparent looking feather slashes to anything within reach). Just think having a few things to do would be fun (even if it's simply making the area of effect larger). Not saying SE had to see the idea to get it but long ago, before this skill, I had suggested a winged move for paladin that would protect your allies while you took position, and one of the concepts was if you used tempered will anyone in the area would gain that effect (so they wouldn't be affected by knockbacks).

I also think Shield Bash could get something, since right now with low blow shield bash is now basically the skill that you use to ruin your combos and to cheese stun lock. Perhaps now Shield Bash applies disorient for a few seconds (useless on bosses but will slow the target greatly) and grants 10 shield oath, is oGCD, and for the next 10 seconds the skill will be replaced with Radiant Armament (light erupts from your shield in a cone) which inflicts a stun much like it used to but with no damage (each flash costs 5 shield oath). Goes on cooldown, whether you used the stun mechanic or not.

For Fight or Flight I think the skill could get an upgrade, since it currently fits gladiator well but for Paladin it's like "no run, only fight- I am first in and last out" lol. The name change could be simple though, like Fight and Flight, causing Paladin to gain increased movement speed and a sort of sticky rush attack to all their physical moves (if there is distance from the target such that you can't use your attack it'll put you in range and use your attack then, like each attack has a very short range dash baked into it). You might then think of Divine Descent from above and change it so during Flight and Fight your blessed lance is instantly cast or even buffed (or simply remove the association and so blessed lance sticks to the magic phase and divine descent is with the physical side, that would also be fine), since it's called and flight it would naturally make sense divine descent has some relationship to the skill. As well as the new name maybe adding a little bit of particle effects to your sword moves (not aggressive effects- doesn't need to be gaudy, but enough that you look enhanced). Also during Fight and Flight if you hovered slightly off the ground (doesn't need wings, since WHM already has that sort of thing- just kind of hovering in graceful yet slightly intimidating position), that'd be epic ;).

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

I am amused that the word obsession was used. Quite a hefty dose of projection.

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I am amused that the word projection was used. Quite a hefty dose of obsession