Remove damage from movement skills

I think it would be great if SQenix would remove damage from movement skills like corps-a-corp and plunge. Idk about dragoon since that’s pretty vital to its fantasy, maybe just the 60 second one and lower its CD.

It’s just really painful using a movement ability for damage and then when you actually need to get back to the boss it’s on CD. Feels awful. I get that it’s a skill cap planning thing but that just seems so unncessarily contrived. If we were able to use our movement abilities just for closing in, melee would be a LOT more fun and intuitive to play. Just my opinion. What do y’all think?

Why not go further and remove damage from skills?

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Originally Posted by RTX3080

Why not go further and remove damage from skills?

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Huh, why would they do that?

Give more movement actions charges, but removing the damage nah. Most battles are scripted to the point that majority of the time you'll know when is good to move in/out with actions.

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Originally Posted by jamjeeshoul77

Huh, why would they do that?

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He is trolling you, pay no attention.

Doing such would have a hugely negative impact on DPS across the board, I think, considering that said damage dealing movement skills would see the reason you've provided as barely a fraction within their total usage.

Could always add charges to them like tank. So long as you don't sit on 2 charges you're fine, mostly lol (could argue around some of the buff windows and such but I don't play content where that is even slightly relevant, the fact I use defensive cooldowns for trash or my invuln if there is no reason to save it for nothing makes healers minds blow already xD).

I'd rather it not be all so "this is a movement skill it doesn't deal damage therefore" but I can absolutely see where you're coming from. I just like that crunch feeling, at least on some of them, and I also think it might be interesting if they've some variety (where balance-able).

Maybe a suggestion for one of the job's movement skill is once the skill is used, it then replaces it with a short cooldown skill for the duration or most of the duration of the cooldown of the skill- which has no damage. So you'd both damage and a pretty speedy movement skill. A movement skill I would like to see change would be the Black Mage leyline teleport allowing you to teleport while casting... I think that'd be pretty cool since you could start a cast while off your leyline and end it on top of your leyline.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

Doing such would have a hugely negative impact on DPS across the board, I think, considering that said damage dealing movement skills would see the reason you've provided as barely a fraction within their total usage.

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They could deliver that damage out with small increases in potency to other skills. I’m sure it’s more complicated than that but I think it would be worth the work to make melee feel a lot more fluid to play. Being stuck away from the boss for 2 gcds cus your movement ability was used when you didn’t need to move isn’t very fun

Then why not use sprint, or simply move the old fashioned way?

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

Then why not use sprint, or simply move the old fashioned way?

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I think they're saying it feels good to dart around the field and have movement skills but it doesn't feel good to not be able to use them when you want them because you felt like you had to use them for the proper DPS.

So they're trying to feel out the community / give feedback on the idea that movement skills are for movement over 'damage and movement if it works out for you' lol.

I was disappointed to learn that Repelling Shot on bard does no damage, I had been using it on cooldown while leveling til like lvl 60 something.

I'm fine with those skills having damage, the better option would be to add a charge system like gap closers have. That way they can have utility but also not be a dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

Then why not use sprint, or simply move the old fashioned way?

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What shougun said. I do use sprint when I can, but I have this ability that gets me to the boss instantly. Yet I have to use it for dps. It just doesn’t feel intuitive to have a movement skill that you don’t use for movement the vast majority of the time, and when you do need to use it for movement 90% of the time you can’t because it’s on cd lol, again I get that it’s a skill cap thing but if that wasn’t a thing I think it’d be awesome to be able to zip zoop and zoom to the boss when you need to without having to worry about “do I need to save this or use it for damage gain”? There’s enough of that in the game already, freeing up movement skills would make it feel less cumbersome

Charges would be a great idea, I didn’t think of that

They should just make all movement abilities have charges regardless of whether they deal damage or not.

NIN's Shukuchi is a weird outlier in that regard.

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I was disappointed to learn that Repelling Shot on bard does no damage, I had been using it on cooldown while leveling til like lvl 60 something.

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It used to do damage. To be honest, it's dumb that the skill still requires an enemy target despite doing absolutely nothing to said target.

In return for taking away its damage they could have at least made it like Elusive Jump and freely usable without any target.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

To be honest, it's dumb that the skill still requires an enemy target despite doing absolutely nothing to said target.

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It's a backward movement with a 30s cooldown. Having a target is for better control and can help you not waste it accidentally. Elusive jump should have a target in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They should just make all movement abilities have charges regardless of whether they deal damage or not.

NIN's Shukuchi is a weird outlier in that regard.

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Shukuchi is the outlier because it does no damage. Charges were added so that you don't have to choose between utility and damage, because as long as you aren't capped on charges, you aren't losing damage. But Shukuchi does no damage, so there's no reason to give it a charge because there's no DPS loss from holding it.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Shukuchi is the outlier because it does no damage. Charges were added so that you don't have to choose between utility and damage, because as long as you aren't capped on charges, you aren't losing damage. But Shukuchi does no damage, so there's no reason to give it a charge because there's no DPS loss from holding it.

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Shukuchi got a second charge simply to increase NIN's independent mobility to make it stand out. It doesn't need damage tied to it to qualify for a second charge, otherwise En Avant which starts at one charge would be a culprit as well.

The reason tanks and Monk have charges on their gapcloser has more to do with the fact that they don't have alternative mobility as the remaining jobs.

- Dragoon has multiple types of jumps + Elusive Jump for a free-directional 15-yalm lunge.
- Samurai and Warrior's gapcloser are tied to resource management in exchange for a shorter cooldown.
- Red Mage hangs out in range and lunges into melee distance for their combo. Even using CaC on cooldown they are more than mobile enough and their weaponskills have shorter recasts. Displacement depending on the cooldown alignment is often less favored to Engagement to allow more stable weaving, but in turn Displacement does more damage so it's fairly alright.

Even assuming a gapcloser would still have a single charge, that is kind of where gamesense comes into play. Do you hold your gapcloser for a while so you can zip right in after having to run out or do you use it on cooldown and use Sprint to get back and forth? Depending on the situation, holding the gapcloser has a greater benefit than using it on cooldown because it allows you to keep the global cooldown rolling.

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Elusive jump should have a target in my opinion.

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Yeah, no thanks.

Sorry, but I don't like this. If you know you're going to need to get to the boss, just save the charge and use it later, you'll gain dps because you'll have less time away from the boss overall vs using it in the burst and then having a long time away.

I'm not the best dps but I like having room to improve, this would just reduce the skill ceiling even further.

The problem with charges is that it doesn’t mean you can use the skill and still have it available, it just means you now have to use it twice within your burst window and then still not have any charges when you want to use it...

The simplest solution would be to just remove the damage from these skills and have them purely for mobility, but it’s true that it seems silly to slam into an enemy with your shoulder or weapon/shield and do no damage. It would also mean removing more buttons from our already pretty basic rotations.

Instead, I think they should add a new category to skill types. We have weaponskills, spells and abilities, I think they should add a “utility” category and it should include skills that can do damage but can’t be buffed, for example, won’t be effected by trick attack, battle litany, or personal buffs like fight or flight or brotherhood. That way you’d still want to use these skills for damage but combined with the charge system you could also hold onto the second charge and use it whenever within the recast of the first charge meaning you can still use them for damage but also have it available for when you want to move. (Which is the basic idea of why they added charges in the first place).

At the least, retreating moves should have no damage, simply to reduce all of the times people trying to maximize their DPS instead threw themselves off a platform or into an AOE. Dragoon is the meme king for it, but red mages with badly-aimed Displacement are a strong contender.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

At the least, retreating moves should have no damage, simply to reduce all of the times people trying to maximize their DPS instead threw themselves off a platform or into an AOE. Dragoon is the meme king for it, but red mages with badly-aimed Displacement are a strong contender.

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But a properly placed Displacement on Titan EX scares the crap out of your party, with your heels landing just on the edge of the platform. A lot of the time, it's just people not knowing how to judge the distance properly. Like in Titan, standing right in the middle of his circle(when he is in the middle of the arena) will land you on the edge.


As to what OP is saying about needing to get back close to the boss, these are the options that work for that:

1. Move the old fashioned way....just walk/run to the boss. It's not THAT far.

2. Use Sprint to get there if a boss used a knock back and you are far away.

3. Start the fight close to the boss, as Red Mage, and use Displacement first, then Corps-a-corps to get back close


Since I don't do savage, I can't think of anything other than Shiva Unreal where you would need to be that close to the boss(and only for when she is in sword or bow stances). While standing in Narnia isn't an option either(come on people, standing at the EXTREME limits of range just makes it so your healer needs to actually target you directly after raid-wide damage, and it also makes it so any mitigation buffs from a tank don't hit you, as well as any melee buffs for that matter), you could always just stay close enough when on any other class. Also, if you're in melee range you still get, while a pitifully small amount, auto attack damage dealt to the boss.

When I think about it... using En Avant when you need is is fun. Having to use Displacement every few seconds not to lose any DPS is not. It's more some kind of annoyance or even a burden to do that stupid backstep everytime.

I get why some of them have DPS tied to movement actions. I just personally would like to see all movement skills decoupled from DPS. It's not THAT bad with tanks because they have charges and their DPS rotations are simpler. But for DPS I have much more fun playing a DPS that has no movement or "DPS free" movement than the ones that have both in one action. It's only fine for DRG, because it's such a big part of its class fantasy.

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Originally Posted by jamjeeshoul77

They could deliver that damage out with small increases in potency to other skills. I’m sure it’s more complicated than that but I think it would be worth the work to make melee feel a lot more fluid to play. Being stuck away from the boss for 2 gcds cus your movement ability was used when you didn’t need to move isn’t very fun

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Play better then

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Instead, I think they should add a new category to skill types. We have weaponskills, spells and abilities, I think they should add a “utility” category and it should include skills that can do damage but can’t be buffed, for example, won’t be effected by trick attack, battle litany, or personal buffs like fight or flight or brotherhood. That way you’d still want to use these skills for damage but combined with the charge system you could also hold onto the second charge and use it whenever within the recast of the first charge meaning you can still use them for damage but also have it available for when you want to move. (Which is the basic idea of why they added charges in the first place).

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I agree with the charge issue, but as for the quoted part. I feel like "utility" would be strange considering that it would cover abilities like Mantra and Battle Litany as well GCDs like Raise.

Plus IMO it would make sense to have a 4th ability for those weird skills that are on the GCD yet have Cooldowns like oGCDs

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Originally Posted by jamjeeshoul77

I think it would be great if SQenix would remove damage from movement skills like corps-a-corp and plunge. Idk about dragoon since that’s pretty vital to its fantasy, maybe just the 60 second one and lower its CD.

It’s just really painful using a movement ability for damage and then when you actually need to get back to the boss it’s on CD. Feels awful. I get that it’s a skill cap planning thing but that just seems so unncessarily contrived. If we were able to use our movement abilities just for closing in, melee would be a LOT more fun and intuitive to play. Just my opinion. What do y’all think?

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It sounds like you are using your cold downs wrong. corps-a-corp is part of a Red Mage Rotation to transition from Ranged Casting to the short window of Melee DPS, then you jump back to range and cast away until your white and red are both near the top, and the red mana is ready.

As for Plunge, it is the Tank Charge for a Dark Knight. Tank Charges usually have damage and/or a stun (depending on class and MMO) if a Dark Knight is using it for anything other than charging into the next mob, they are doing it wrong. Your suggestion is based on playing a class wrong. So NO.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

It sounds like you are using your cold downs wrong. corps-a-corp is part of a Red Mage Rotation to transition from Ranged Casting to the short window of Melee DPS, then you jump back to range and cast away until your white and red are both near the top, and the red mana is ready.

As for Plunge, it is the Tank Charge for a Dark Knight. Tank Charges usually have damage and/or a stun (depending on class and MMO) if a Dark Knight is using it for anything other than charging into the next mob, they are doing it wrong. Your suggestion is based on playing a class wrong. So NO.

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Totally agree, Although Plunge is used to squeeze a little more DPS in when theres no need in the foreseeable future to springboard back. Usually only push it when im madly trying to Deeps, otherwise save at least a charge if springboard is needed in the fight. Besides that supplemental miniscule amount of damage increase, i agree. As for RDM yeah its pretty necessary. The comments about DRG are funny, the back jump only lowers enmity, and isnt necessary at all besides cool looking dodging out of immediate boss range, which is often used improperly anyway. It also does 0 damage. Displacement is necessary for RDM damage rotation, so tacking damage onto it is fine imo. I'm not even entirely sure what the fuss is from OP, so you dont want DRG iconic Jumps to do any damage?

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The simplest solution would be to just remove the damage from these skills and have them purely for mobility, but it’s true that it seems silly to slam into an enemy with your shoulder or weapon/shield and do no damage.

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Not any sillier than Repelling Shot requiring a target yet doing no damage tbh

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At the least, retreating moves should have no damage, simply to reduce all of the times people trying to maximize their DPS instead threw themselves off a platform or into an AOE. Dragoon is the meme king for it, but red mages with badly-aimed Displacement are a strong contender.

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This. There's too many instances where RDM literally can't use Displacement without killing themselves and I don't feel like that's fair to them.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Shukuchi got a second charge simply to increase NIN's independent mobility to make it stand out. It doesn't need damage tied to it to qualify for a second charge, otherwise En Avant which starts at one charge would be a culprit as well.

The reason tanks and Monk have charges on their gapcloser has more to do with the fact that they don't have alternative mobility as the remaining jobs.

- Dragoon has multiple types of jumps + Elusive Jump for a free-directional 15-yalm lunge.
- Samurai and Warrior's gapcloser are tied to resource management in exchange for a shorter cooldown.
- Red Mage hangs out in range and lunges into melee distance for their combo. Even using CaC on cooldown they are more than mobile enough and their weaponskills have shorter recasts. Displacement depending on the cooldown alignment is often less favored to Engagement to allow more stable weaving, but in turn Displacement does more damage so it's fairly alright.

Even assuming a gapcloser would still have a single charge, that is kind of where gamesense comes into play. Do you hold your gapcloser for a while so you can zip right in after having to run out or do you use it on cooldown and use Sprint to get back and forth? Depending on the situation, holding the gapcloser has a greater benefit than using it on cooldown because it allows you to keep the global cooldown rolling.

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If the Monk and Tank gap closers were single charge, there is no "gamesense" to be had, for optimal damage they need to be used right off cooldown like any other oGCD. The longer you hold them, less uses of those skills you get in per fight, thus you lose damage. That's why they added charges, so you can keep the damage on them but also hold onto them for actual mobility purposes. Because as long as one of the charges is charging, you aren't losing DPS by holding the other, as long as it's used before the second charge finishes charging. That's just how optimal play works, DPS is king.

I'm in favor of this. It's become better now that movement skills can stack, but for years there was the tradeoff on monk about using shoulder tackle to maximize damage or holding onto it because you knew you'd have to disengage from a boss and wanted to use it to get back in. Now you can just hold some of them and let the timer tick up so you can do both, but I would still just prefer to have 100 potency added to Elixir Field (for example) and Shoulder Tackle just used for movement.

I do feel there is a lot of room for creativity with it.

What they did this expansion is give a bunch of jobs multiple gap closer charges, so you can almost always hold one. I think this is a fine solution, but I don't think they had to copy + paste this across like 3 of the tanks.

Other ways about it:

• GCD gap closer, with a CD or otherwise. It kind of resolves itself by opportunity cost; if anything would need a higher potency.
• As a modification of the above, roll it into a GCD already used. RDM is a good example, where I wouldn't mind if the first attack of the enchanted combo closed the gap for you.
• Gap closer with a minimum distance. It's not worth it to make distance to use it, but when you actually have to get in it's basically always there for you. Has the baggage of being a button you might not use in some fights.
• An existing solution I like is what they did with WAR. You spend a resource for it, but get what you pay for. It's the best at actually closing a gap when you have the gauge for it. Maybe tune it a bit next expansion but that aside.
• Instant positional actions that don't use FFXIV's terrible ground targeting system. Elusive Jump is better than Shikuchi if not just because it's responsive.
• Wouldn't mind if we had a melee job that charges forward like 15y but stopped on impact with an enemy.

Either way I do not want them to go like... hey, we have this solution for the problem, let's apply it to 10 jobs. One of Shadowbringer's biggest problems IMO is excessive homogeneity. I get why that happens, because they found a solution that can solve a design problem that exists across jobs, or because it's easier to balance jobs that way, but I'd like more individual flavour and bold design decisions when it's reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

I do feel there is a lot of room for creativity with it.

What they did this expansion is give a bunch of jobs multiple gap closer charges, so you can almost always hold one. I think this is a fine solution, but I don't think they had to copy + paste this across like 3 of the tanks.


Either way I do not want them to go like... hey, we have this solution for the problem, let's apply it to 10 jobs. One of Shadowbringer's biggest problems IMO is excessive homogeneity. I get why that happens, because they found a solution that can solve a design problem that exists across jobs, or because it's easier to balance jobs that way, but I'd like more individual flavour and bold design decisions when it's reasonable.

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Yeah the homogeny is great in ShB. I think its like, they didnt want one specific line up to be better than any other line up in raids etc, and by doing so they inevitably made 1 specific line up better than any line up. Personally I am ok with class/job identity, but to be honest if they want every job to be able to perform the same or similar, this is what we get stuck with. Would like to see it differently, but i guess that ship sailed during Heavensward tbh. Some for the better(PLD getting buffed as a result of the oopsies) while others...not so much. Anyone play monk these days? havent seen one in DF since i resubbed

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

Play better then

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What’s your problem? Why the completely unneeded passive aggressive one liner?

I addressed that in my post. I get that there’s a skill cap involved with deciding to save the ability for upcoming movement vs using it for dps, but I personally think there’s already enough “should I save this” stuff with party buffs, phase transitions, etc

While I don't necessarily agree for corps-a-corps as it's more of an intended part of the RDM skill set than it is a gap closer, I actually generally agree with the topic. It really does feel like to maximize damage you're forced to use your gap closer skills when they're not really intended to be used just because of the damage they provide.

Seems more like a personal issue than anything, imo. "It exists, therefore I must use it!" I ignore them unless I need to move (Corps-a-corps aside, as mentioned), because that's what they're there for. If others think I'm trash for not using Plunge/Rough Divide/etc., whenever available, so be it - I couldn't care less.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

While I don't necessarily agree for corps-a-corps as it's more of an intended part of the RDM skill set than it is a gap closer, I actually generally agree with the topic. It really does feel like to maximize damage you're forced to use your gap closer skills when they're not really intended to be used just because of the damage they provide.

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With Corps-a-corps, that issue could be fixed by gating it behind a mana requirement (with or without consuming mana, AFAIK the Enchanted combo uses 80 of both leaving 20 leftover if the bards were filled)

They did that with Repelling Shot, and I'm still rolling my eyes over how they removed the damage (and knockback?) from Fluid Aura. No. Thank you.

As long as they've multiple charges, and especially if there's no perfectly syncable damage buff CD for them to be obliged into (Embolden, for instance, does not affect Corps a Corps, as it's merely physical damage), I prefer that damage remain a part of them so I actually have to use them occasionally. Yes, that's even true for Displacement.