What's up with the other members of the Convocation? (Spoilers)

Instead of hiding everything behind spoiler tags I'm just going to warn anyone that hasn't played Shadowbringers to leave now if you don't want to be spoiled. Because I'm going to get into some spoiler material. This way everyone can post freely.

You've been warned.

Okay. So, we know about four members of the Convocation: Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, Elidibus and Azem. Possibly five with Venat, who became Hydaelyn's heart. But has it been mentioned anywhere what become of the other nine or 10 members?

I ask because they could still pose a rather significant threat. They were all sundered, of course, but they've also been seven times Rejoined. We've seen the power of Convocation members by not only looking at the three Unsundered, but also just looking at ourselves. We are Azem, eight times Rejoined (including Ardbert). And look at the power we hold.

I feel like this could be a major plot point in future storylines. Convocation Ascians have robust souls and great power. Unless of course, these were past Warriors of Light? Perhaps Zenos is one of the Convocation members, which is why he is always dreaming about the Final Days?

I think it's because Elidibus took over his body and when he left, there's some ascian essence remain in the body.

Venat was never on the Convocation. We don't know where they are from. Same thing goes for everyone else on Venat's side.

What happened with the other 10 Convocation members was that they helped summon Zoidark and got Tempered by him. And then were sundered along with everyone else when Zoidark was sundered (as was the rest of the world at the same time). That Lahabrea, Emet-Sech and Elidibus didn't get sundered is... very odd. And I very much hope it is gone into what happened that they were not sundered.

What seems to have happened since then is that as the sundered Convocation members were reborn, the Unsundered Ascians found them and used the memorial stones they had made of them to restore their memories of their past life. Probably utilizing the Echo to smooth things over. Now that the memorial stones are gone, no more Ascians can be given their memories of the time before the sundering, so there will never be anymore Ascian overlords.

That still means there's plenty of lower ranked Ascians that can posses dead bodies and the like. But the days of Ascians who can escape to the Rift or posses living bodies will end assuming the WoL manages to kill the rest of the Overlords off for good. Goodness knows we're closer to doing that than ever before.

For those not in the know, the Convocation of Fourteen are all named after the Scions of Light mentioned in the Espers' bios from XII with three exceptions: neither Zodiark nor Ultima have counterparts, so Zodiark's representative in this game is Elidibus (in Tactics a sorcerer who held the Ophiuchus stone, letting him summon Zodiark) and Ultima's is named Altima, a corruption of her name used in the original translation of Tactics. Azem is the only truly original one.

Most of them have played some role in the story, sundered or otherwise. Only Deudalaphon remains completely unaccounted for at the moment.

It's never been said explicitly, but given only Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus escaped Hydaelyn's Sundering it can be inferred they were killed and reincarnated as more limited mortals much like Azem. Using the memory crystals the Unsundered Ascians can restore their sundered brethren to their old station. However, it's not clear whether those restored sundered Ascians are native to the Source; at least Nabriales is implied to not be. Without their memories sundered Ascians could be anyone, so it's nothing to worry overmuch about.

The term "Warrior of Light" is more or less synonymous with the term "hero" in, arguably, most if not all of the shards and Source as a legend spread by Elidibus to help maintain his existence. It doesn't necessarily refer to an incarnation of Azem, Hydaelyn's champion, or a reincarnated Convocation member.

As for Zenos... we still don't have the full picture of what his deal is. He claims to have always dreamed of the Final Days, and Fandaniel asks himself whether Emet-Selch "found a way" when Zenos mentions said dreams. (Found a way to do... what...?) In regards to him being a reincarnated Ascian / Ancient, I don't think that's the case; with it having been revealed the PC is a reincarnation of Azem, as the PC's foil Zenos is much less likely to be the same.

I think the implication was that Hydaelyn uses the term for Her chosen, then it becomes synonymous with hero and applied to anyone who does great deeds, and since Zodiark was summoned with the desire to "save the world", Elidibus can side-jack some power from the zealotry of anyone who wants to save the world, so he eggs it on sometimes. For me there's a leap from there to "The Warrior of Light is a legend spread by Elidibus" that I'm not quite ready for.

I'd like to add my hunch that the 12 Ancients following Venat and help summon Hydaelyn are probably the 12 gods of the people of Eorzea. You can see them in the cutscene that immediately follows Anemnesis Anyder.

In other threads I've been calling them the Hydaelyn Convocation until we're given a proper name for them.

Furthermore, I feel that we aren't done with Venat either. As the Heart of Hydaelyn, much like Elidibus, says they will return and in a form of their choosing. So I guess the question remains who or what was Venat and what have they been doing?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think the implication was that Hydaelyn uses the term for Her chosen, then it becomes synonymous with hero and applied to anyone who does great deeds, and since Zodiark was summoned with the desire to "save the world", Elidibus can side-jack some power from the zealotry of anyone who wants to save the world, so he eggs it on sometimes. For me there's a leap from there to "The Warrior of Light is a legend spread by Elidibus" that I'm not quite ready for.

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Yes. But I'm willing to guess that we may find out that all of Hydaelyn's WOL were souls with a fragment of Azem's soul reincarnated through time. I think back to the four lords quest where Suzaku looks at our soul and sees Tenzen. Or the soul scan in done by the pods in Azys Lla during the Warring Triad quests that recognize us as citizens of the Allagan empire during the war with Mercaydia. I'm willing to bet the heroes in the history book mentioned in 5.3 were us too and maybe we were Ramza in the ff14 version of history Ivalice. I've wondered if these memories could be triggered with interaction with the missing Midgradsormr children who would have lived through all of these events.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Yes. But I'm willing to guess that we may find out that all of Hydaelyn's WOL were souls with a fragment of Azem's soul reincarnated through time. I think back to the four lords quest where Suzaku looks at our soul and sees Tenzen. Or the soul scan in done by the pods in Azys Lla during the Warring Triad quests that recognize us as citizens of the Allagan empire during the war with Mercaydia. I'm willing to bet the heroes in the history book mentioned in 5.3 were us too and maybe we were Ramza in the ff14 version of history Ivalice. I've wondered if these memories could be triggered with interaction with the missing Midgradsormr children who would have lived through all of these events.

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While Tenzen being a previous incarnation of Azem is on the table, Ramza is not - his soul is still lingering around the Orbonne Monastery when we go there. Pretty sure the Allagan stuff was just malfunctioning, like lots of the stuff up there does. (It's been 5,000 years after all.)

Either way, the point I was trying to make is that the Warrior of Light title is not reserved exclusively for Hydaelyn's champion(s); rather it's used as a catchall term for any larger than life heroic figure, blessed by Hydaelyn or not. That was kind of the point of Elidibus making everyone think they were Warriors of Light even though they're just nascent Echo users. I admit the veracity of Elidibus creating and spreading the legend of the Warrior of Light is questionable (at best - I seem to be losing my rationality for some reason, someone help me find it!) but you don't have to have the Echo or be blessed by Hydaelyn to be or call yourself a Warrior of Light (in the eyes of common people, at any rate). Sundered, amnesiac Ascians may or may not be or have been Warriors of Light, but that title isn't limited to them.

Were all Hydaelyn's chosen Warriors of Light incarnations of Azem? Err... considering all the Warriors of Darkness (neé of Light) from the First were had at least one Crystal of Light, I seriously doubt it. (Ysayle did too.)

What's up with the Sundereds you ask? Well, we're about to find out. I'm very much looking forward to them picking whether they're for what Fandango's all about or whether they're not. I imagine that not all of them got reraised by Emet or Elidibus, but that's an off-screen plot point for the scriptwriters to decide.

I can see it going either way, "Oh mostly they're dead and unraised, so they're unawares." or "They all got raised up, but now there's squabbles about what to do now." I imagine Fandango's goals don't involve them, and should they get in his way, he'll have Zenos butcher'em. Yeehaw!

Also very curious to see if Gaius actually managed to permanently off any of them.

what I always wondered shouldn't there be a sundered ascian part on each world like with our character as well? If Igeyorhm we killed in Azys Lla was from the Source she should have been rejoined 7 times. Apparently Ardbert and co killed all Ascians of the First. that would still leave 5 pieces of Igeyorhm around (maybe 4, depends how the 13th acts in this case).
Or do all pieces get erased when the Source piece is gone?

Also is Hydaelyn also sundered or is she present on all worlds?

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

what I always wondered shouldn't there be a sundered ascian part on each world like with our character as well? If Igeyorhm we killed in Azys Lla was from the Source she should have been rejoined 7 times. Apparently Ardbert and co killed all Ascians of the First. that would still leave 5 pieces of Igeyorhm around (maybe 4, depends how the 13th acts in this case).
Or do all pieces get erased when the Source piece is gone?

Also is Hydaelyn also sundered or is she present on all worlds?

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Hydaelyn is present on all worlds, as she created the sundering that split them.

And outside means like white auracite need to be used to disrupt the aether of the Ascians and send them on to death by joining the lifestream (otherwise they can come back). Other ways the plot has used are to absorb the Ascian's aether is to summon a primal or channel it through the crystal tower out to space.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

what I always wondered shouldn't there be a sundered ascian part on each world like with our character as well? If Igeyorhm we killed in Azys Lla was from the Source she should have been rejoined 7 times. Apparently Ardbert and co killed all Ascians of the First. that would still leave 5 pieces of Igeyorhm around (maybe 4, depends how the 13th acts in this case).
Or do all pieces get erased when the Source piece is gone?

Also is Hydaelyn also sundered or is she present on all worlds?

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Someone else jogged my memory - sundered Ascians aren't necessarily created using the soul fragments of their former station holders, though they are preferable to using random people. While Azem's seems to have lacked the feature, the implication is that the memory crystals more or less force the identity of the Convocation seat holder onto people.

Logically speaking there may be sundered Ascian fragments on the various worlds, but the cycle of souls may still be in play as it is for Azem and lead to them being reincarnated. Either way, their deaths (body and soul) wouldn't stop the unsundered from raising up pliant mortals.

(I suspect this has something to do with Fandaniel's... eccentric personality.)

Hydaelyn is present on all worlds, and is the same being across them. (Kinda. She's not actually summoned, just kinda floating around the aetherial sea.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

the aetherial sea.)

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this is where we end up after Antitower? not really related to the topic but wouldn't that technically be a way to travel to the other worlds?

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

this is where we end up after Antitower? not really related to the topic but wouldn't that technically be a way to travel to the other worlds?

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From what I understand, during those moments where the WoL appears in the aetherial sea, our physical body remains in the location they were at before such scenes. In other words, while the Word of the Mother is chatting with us, our body is just sort of hanging out in the Antitower.

So while we probably could travel to other worlds this way, we'd have to leave our physical body behind to do so. Only the Exarch has managed to circumvent that limitation, both in his initial departure from the Eighth Era to the First and in his subsequent summoning of the WoL from the Source to the First. Even then, his first half-dozen attempts all backfired horribly—The first five attempts ended up pulling the Scions' souls out of their bodies instead, and the sixth attempt left the WoL's comatose body just a few fulms away from Elidibus-Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

this is where we end up after Antitower? not really related to the topic but wouldn't that technically be a way to travel to the other worlds?

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That it is. We also travel there briefly after the showdown with the Warriors of Darkness in 3.4 to feed Hydaelyn enough Light aether to free Minfilia and send her to the First.

Not sure if it can be used to traverse worlds. Nothing has said it can do so thus far.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That it is. We also travel there briefly after the showdown with the Warriors of Darkness in 3.4 to feed Hydaelyn enough Light aether to free Minfilia and send her to the First.

Not sure if it can be used to traverse worlds. Nothing has said it can do so thus far.

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They don't expound on it, and it seems to be driven by Minfilia's help, but the WoDs leave for The First from there using their Crystals of Light, as they did with Elidibus's aid when they committed sudoku.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

From what I understand, during those moments where the WoL appears in the aetherial sea, our physical body remains in the location they were at before such scenes. In other words, while the Word of the Mother is chatting with us, our body is just sort of hanging out in the Antitower.

So while we probably could travel to other worlds this way, we'd have to leave our physical body behind to do so. Only the Exarch has managed to circumvent that limitation, both in his initial departure from the Eighth Era to the First and in his subsequent summoning of the WoL from the Source to the First. Even then, his first half-dozen attempts all backfired horribly—The first five attempts ended up pulling the Scions' souls out of their bodies instead, and the sixth attempt left the WoL's comatose body just a few fulms away from Elidibus-Zenos.

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This is actually a grey area for the game, because when we go with the WoDs using our Crystals of Light, everyone is teleported along with us, and we are shown teleporting back into Southern Thanalan. When we're sent back from the first Word encounter, we're straight teleported back to Matoya's Cave. While it doesn't discredit the notion that we'd need to renounce our flesh to world hop, going to the aetherial sea was done with our bodies intact and present in the sea itself.

The aetherial sea seems to be the space between the sundered worlds, but I assume traversing it is not so simple.

The aetherial sea isn't the space between the Shards. If it was, souls would just rejoin in the sea as they naturally do after a rejoining. Basically it appears each Shard's Lifestreams are not connected to each other.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The aetherial sea isn't the space between the Shards. If it was, souls would just rejoin in the sea as they naturally do after a rejoining. Basically it appears each Shard's Lifestreams are not connected to each other.

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Each Lifestream is attached to the Aetherial Sea. This much is apparent due to Minfilia getting sucked into the Flow teleportation magic that spirits her through the Lifestream to the Aetherial Sea. And it is where Hydaelyn resides and keeps watch on all shards, so yes, it is.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I'd like to add my hunch that the 12 Ancients following Venat and help summon Hydaelyn are probably the 12 gods of the people of Eorzea. You can see them in the cutscene that immediately follows Anemnesis Anyder.

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Whatever is going on, it's more complicated than that. Azem isn't one of those twelve, but got a goddess named after them regardless.

Meanwhile, whether planned or not, Nald'thal seems to equate to Emet-Selch quite neatly. Lord of the Underworld and associated with Gemini, the Twins...

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I've wondered if these memories could be triggered with interaction with the missing Midgradsormr children who would have lived through all of these events.

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Midgardsormr, Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg and Tiamat lived through all those events too, and they didn't trigger anything in us. There's nothing inherently special about the other dragons just because of that.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While Tenzen being a previous incarnation of Azem is on the table, Ramza is not - his soul is still lingering around the Orbonne Monastery when we go there.

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Tenzen's soul was apparently bound up in Koryu's seal, so he can't have been an incarnation either.

Unless of course we're understanding the "one soul per shard" thing wrong and they can all flow freely through the aetherial sea and pop up anywhere, in which case it would be possible for them to be other shards of Azem... but that explanation may be messier in other ways. We still don't understand how the aetherial sea works.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

So while we probably could travel to other worlds this way, we'd have to leave our physical body behind to do so. Only the Exarch has managed to circumvent that limitation, both in his initial departure from the Eighth Era to the First and in his subsequent summoning of the WoL from the Source to the First. Even then, his first half-dozen attempts all backfired horribly—The first five attempts ended up pulling the Scions' souls out of their bodies instead, and the sixth attempt left the WoL's comatose body just a few fulms away from Elidibus-Zenos.

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While it's arguably no longer a true world but a void where a world used to be, we did physically go to the World of Darkness prior to that - and using a gate opened by the Crystal Tower to do so. It may be a critical part of the mechanism for the summoning spell, even if Omega's rift powers were also needed for the full solution.

On "messing up the sixth attempt" to summon us, I feel like that one might have been more that it was urgent to get in contact right now and he didn't have time to properly set up the summoning, so he sort of pulled us halfway just to get the message across.

It's also my headcanon that this might have been the actual point where the timelines diverge, and if he hadn't pulled us there and then we would have killed "Zenos" and it would have been a turning point in the battle that eventually led to the cornered Garleans using Black Rose.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Meanwhile, whether planned or not, Nald'thal seems to equate to Emet-Selch quite neatly. Lord of the Underworld and associated with Gemini, the Twins...

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Nald'Thal (or more specifically Nald) is also the god associated with commerce and trade. Emet-Selch didn't even bother with trade in his empire-building, preferring espionage and conquest instead.

More directly, there isn't any deity in Aldenard nor Othard (we know the Garleans prohibited religion on Ilsabard) that has a name that sounds like "Emet-Selch" (or "Hades"), to the same degree as Azem and Azeyma/Azim.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Someone else jogged my memory - sundered Ascians aren't necessarily created using the soul fragments of their former station holders, though they are preferable to using random people. While Azem's seems to have lacked the feature, the implication is that the memory crystals more or less force the identity of the Convocation seat holder onto people.

Logically speaking there may be sundered Ascian fragments on the various worlds, but the cycle of souls may still be in play as it is for Azem and lead to them being reincarnated. Either way, their deaths (body and soul) wouldn't stop the unsundered from raising up pliant mortals.

(I suspect this has something to do with Fandaniel's... eccentric personality.)

Hydaelyn is present on all worlds, and is the same being across them. (Kinda. She's not actually summoned, just kinda floating around the aetherial sea.)

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I thought my understanding was that the shards of the other Convocation members reincarnate through the life cycle similar to our Character and it is those shards the Ascians seek out and use the crystals to awaken their memories to restore them to their station.

Though given that Hythlodaeus said about the crystals not being concepts, being too incomplete to completely restore someone, I image exposing an Shard to these incomplete memories have unintended consequences of resulting in warping the personality of the target which would be why the Unsundered were necessary to keep in line if Fandaniel's reaction is anything to go off of. Unless Fandaniel himself was already warped during the gathering of the crystals his message is slightly more.... incomplete from the others messages we saw.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Each Lifestream is attached to the Aetherial Sea. This much is apparent due to Minfilia getting sucked into the Flow teleportation magic that spirits her through the Lifestream to the Aetherial Sea. And it is where Hydaelyn resides and keeps watch on all shards, so yes, it is.

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The aetherial sea is the Lifestream, and the Lifestreams of each Shard are not connected for very obvious reasons. We have no reason to think Hydaelyn residing in the aetherial sea on the Source means that said sea is linked to the Shards.

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Tenzen's soul was apparently bound up in Koryu's seal, so he can't have been an incarnation either.

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In regards to both Tenzen and Ramza, we have some reasons to believe that apparitions of certain souls may be due to things like residual aether, or the manifestation of ambient aether through will similar to summonings. I think this was stated to be the case in a few instances of when we see certain spirits. Haurchefant and Ysayle on the Final Steps of Faith come to mind here, but I may be misremembering.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Whatever is going on, it's more complicated than that. Azem isn't one of those twelve, but got a goddess named after them regardless.

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I think this has been explained as the names like Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, and Azem are the title held by the seat and isn't the real name. Furthermore, if our original Ancient self decided to defect because of Zodiark but then also refused to join Hydaelyn (as told in the cutscenes with Venat) it stands to reason that their copycat convocation (Venat's Hydaelyn convocation) would still use the titles of office for the seats, every easily giving the Azem title to someone new.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The aetherial sea is the Lifestream, and the Lifestreams of each Shard are not connected for very obvious reasons. We have no reason to think Hydaelyn residing in the aetherial sea on the Source means that said sea is linked to the Shards.


In regards to both Tenzen and Ramza, we have some reasons to believe that apparitions of certain souls may be due to things like residual aether, or the manifestation of ambient aether through will similar to summonings. I think this was stated to be the case in a few instances of when we see certain spirits. Haurchefant and Ysayle on the Final Steps of Faith come to mind here, but I may be misremembering.

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No, it's something different. Basically, Lifestreams are roils of souls that are essentially copies of the original(Ye Olde Pre-Sundered Lifestream), as the shards themselves are, whereas the Aetherial Sea is the gulf of the whole. Think about it like continents or islands, with rivers that lead out to the ocean. A river has its own current, its own water type, unique tributaries, life, and size. If a river leads out to sea, the only thing they have in common is the water, but even that changes once you get out to sea, from fresh to salt. Only in this case aether is the water. This is why we can teleport from The Source to The First using aetherytes.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

This is why we can teleport from The Source to The First using aetherytes.

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I'm not sure about that. I thought we were following our aetherial trail back across the rift?

Of course, the whole rift vs aetherial sea thing is sort of vague and we probably need to ask for a new map of the system. The first lorebook talks about there being a physical realm and an aetherial realm (aka the Lifestream, they state) and the deeper into the planet you go, the more blurred the boundary gets until you reach the aetherial sea at the centre.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure about that. I thought we were following our aetherial trail back across the rift?

Of course, the whole rift vs aetherial sea thing is sort of vague and we probably need to ask for a new map of the system. The first lorebook talks about there being a physical realm and an aetherial realm (aka the Lifestream, they state) and the deeper into the planet you go, the more blurred the boundary gets until you reach the aetherial sea at the centre.

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Honestly, it's all pretty grey. They pick and choose so readily, because the explanation of how or why isn't super important to the story being told. Like back when they give us that first aetherology lesson that leads up to the white auracite and how we're gonna kill the Ascians, they speak of Ascian's rift as a place at the shore of the aetherial realm, and they use realm and sea interchangeably.

In my mind's eye the way I picture it, since we know that the 13 shards are bound aetherically to the Source, hence why Rejoinings work, it's kind of like a web of trees that all share the same root system. In the Omega quest line I'd taken Rift to mean physical space, since that's what Midgardsormr and Omega seemed to have traversed. Yet when we are pulled through the Rift by G'raha Tia, it seems like the Rift exists outside of time and space, since we see those crystal fragments with like, events we'd already experienced pass by us.

All in all, it's a wibbly wobbly timey wimey mess. To make matters worse, I don't think they use the term Aetherial Sea after 3.2. And I don't think they ever equate the Rift to the Lifestream... so I'm kinda just scratching my head here. I guess if it is what the lorebook says that it is, then it makes sense that Omega would have had to burrow deep into the ground in order to congeal his interdimensional rift, something about proximity to the Aetherial Sea being important to create a pocket dimension? But then the Ascians are shown to be able to make Rifts to their pocket dimension above sea level... and the idea that you need to go deep into the planet to be closer to it would seem to be supported by the Antitower being underground and going down, but like... it's underground a mountain plateau? and the tower's not taller than the plateau so... Though the entrance to the Antitower does seem to go into a sort of aetherial pocket itself where all that furniture is floating about and what not.

But I mean, then there's voidgates and all that they imply... they definitely need to give us an update one what all this is, even if it's in another lore book.

The "interdimensional rift" that Omega taps into seems to be the space between the shards, which don't seem to share physical space but exist on different planes of reality. It's not clear whether it's quite the same rift as the Ascians' retreat - it doesn't look the same but maybe they choose how to decorate their pocket dimensions or something.

Voidgates and such are, I suspect, a leftover from an earlier concept of the cosmology that they haven't really tried to integrate into the current setup. The stuff with Ascians and the void in ARR just seems off compared to what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The "interdimensional rift" that Omega taps into seems to be the space between the shards, which don't seem to share physical space but exist on different planes of reality. It's not clear whether it's quite the same rift as the Ascians' retreat - it doesn't look the same but maybe they choose how to decorate their pocket dimensions or something.

Voidgates and such are, I suspect, a leftover from an earlier concept of the cosmology that they haven't really tried to integrate into the current setup. The stuff with Ascians and the void in ARR just seems off compared to what we have now.

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Yeah, we really need an Encylcopedia Eorzea 3 to really expound on all the new stuff we know now.