Warrior Thrill of Battle Skill Idea

So this idea just popped into my head tonight and I thought I'd toss it up here for the consideration of others and, with any luck, the dev team. It's pretty well known, though somewhat arguable, that Warrior has a bit of an identity crisis among the other tanks. I'd love to see the class move in a direction of more battle-rage and self-sustaining/healing over damage mitigation. To that end, what about this as a possible skill alteration?

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Thrill of Battle
Duration: 8 seconds (Instead of the original 10)
Increases maximum HP by 20% and restores the amount increased.
Additional Effect: Increases HP recovery via healing actions on self by 20%
Additional Effect: Duration increases by 1 second for each hit taken to a maximum of 10 seconds.
Recast: 90 Seconds (Same as original but open to change. Maybe 60?)

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The maximum time could be played with, but I feel this would make a good addition to the job, as it would play excellently with the rest of the Warrior's toolkit while in combat, including N.Flash, Vengeance, and as always Equilibrium. With the way it is here, a single target fight will make it last the original 10 seconds. However in a pull phase of a dungeon it could last considerably longer, giving the healer more wiggle room to work with, the warrior more capability with the rest of their toolkit in the fight, and supports the identity of a battle-rage warrior by better fitting the namesake of the skill.

Thoughts?

Warrior doesn't even need a healer in most dungeons rn. Giving it an effectively 100% uptime on ToB, thus +20% healing bonus, is way too powerful, if not (heal-)overkill.

I am saying that as a WAR main: WAR is already overpowered (no pun intended) it doesn't need any more cooldown/duration buffs in that direction. Warrior also has the Vengeance recoil bonus, it doesn't need anything more.

Mind you, ToB was once on 120s CD. The recast reduction in Shadowbringers is already a buff. The reduced duration is a non-issue because you use it for its healing effect, rather the HP increase / don't have any use for its HP increase longer than 10s.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Warrior doesn't even need a healer in most dungeons rn. Giving it an effectively 100% uptime on ToB, thus +20% healing bonus, is way too powerful, if not (heal-)overkill.

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You might want to read the OPs post again, 8 seconds duration, increases by 1 second for each hit taken up to a MAXIMUM of 10 seconds, there is no potential 100% uptime.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I am saying that as a WAR main: WAR is already overpowered (no pun intended) it doesn't need any more cooldown/duration buffs in that direction. Warrior also has the Vengeance recoil bonus, it doesn't need anything more.

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It really isn't outside of maybe trash aoe in dungeons. It's strong defensively and pretty simple in it's playstyle but lacks in dps compared to GNB or PLD to make up for the stronger mitigation and selfheal.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Mind you, ToB was once on 120s CD. The recast reduction in Shadowbringers is already a buff. The reduced duration is a non-issue because you use it for its healing effect, rather the HP increase / don't have any use for its HP increase longer than 10s.

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The shorter duration certainly wouldn't be an issue but why would you not use it for the HP increase when it makes the difference between needing Vengeance for a buster and being fine with just Rampart? That's what it was primarily used for in Stormblood when the healing increase only worked on hard casts. You would probably be fine even if ToB only lasted 6 seconds.


In regards to the suggested change, I just don't see much of a reason for it. Like Ariane said you don't really need the 10 second duration for any of ToB's current uses so it wouldn't change anything. No competent healer is gonna spam heal you just because they see ToB is up for 18 seconds. You would still just press ToB the same way you have done so far.

I personally interpret it as the buff will always recive 1 extra second every time you are hit by an attack and the maximun of seconds you can storage are 10 making it have a 100% uptime if they are multiple targets hitting you wich is absurd, WAR is already with DRK absurdly strong in the mitigation field.

If OP meant you get a 8s buff and you are able to extend it 10s more to a maximun of 18s of efective buff duration under the right circustances maybe should change the tooltip, still WAR don't need that kind of buff whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I personally interpret it as the buff will always recive 1 extra second every time you are hit by an attack and the maximun of seconds you can storage are 10 making it have a 100% uptime if they are multiple targets hitting you wich is absurd, WAR is already with DRK absurdly strong in the mitigation field.

If OP meant you get a 8s buff and you are able to extend it 10s more to a maximun of 18s of efective buff duration under the right circustances maybe should change the tooltip, still WAR don't need that kind of buff whatsoever.

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Hmm...okay yeah, I see that now, it's a bit vague. I simply assumed it's a maximum of +10 seconds duration because having a potentially constant 20% more hp and 20% more healing would be ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You might want to read the OPs post again, 8 seconds duration, increases by 1 second for each hit taken up to a MAXIMUM of 10 seconds, there is no potential 100% uptime.

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Ok I read this as it starts with 8 seconds, but each subsequent hit increases the timer by 1 second to a maximum of 10 seconds. This means that it refreshes the timer by 1 second every time you get hit but can't EXCEED 10 seconds. So this means you can continue to keep thrill up as long as you out pace the timer with more hits.

BUTTTTT I don't think this is needed at all. With the effective changes to WAR's nascent flash I need WAY less healing then ever when I roll WAR. WAR is the heal tank....not a healer. With this change WAR would not even need a healer as long as thrill is up and kind of undermines nascent as I is stupid strong with Chaotic Cyclone and Inner Chaos.

Adding something like this would ultimately BREAK WAR for being to OP. WAR is fine with the changes in 5.3 and feels super comfy to MT or OT. Some of the best survivablity honestly.

All of which are fair points. I'll agree that it's not necessarily needed, as it's a small change that only affects certain situations. I definitely wouldn't say that it undermines Nascent Flash in the slightest as the current skill already makes NF more effective with it's self-heal buff and this wouldn't alter that at all. I'm not sure I'd say that it would break WAR either since the real capability of the skill change only applies to large trash pulls. In raids or dungeon bosses where it's a single target fight, the skill would act exactly as it does currently.

It's more the conceptual idea that I like more than anything, that getting hit increases the strength of a buff or its duration. Essentially that the act of combat itself empowers the Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Glazdon

All of which are fair points. I'll agree that it's not necessarily needed, as it's a small change that only affects certain situations. I definitely wouldn't say that it undermines Nascent Flash in the slightest as the current skill already makes NF more effective with it's self-heal buff and this wouldn't alter that at all. I'm not sure I'd say that it would break WAR either since the real capability of the skill change only applies to large trash pulls. In raids or dungeon bosses where it's a single target fight, the skill would act exactly as it does currently.

It's more the conceptual idea that I like more than anything, that getting hit increases the strength of a buff or its duration. Essentially that the act of combat itself empowers the Warrior.

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Let me reiterate my post. It would undermine Nascent + AOE do to the 20% extra healing. If I were to pull 3 packs of mobs (which I do) and use chaotic cyclone with nascent is just insane heals anyway. Pop thrill of battle (your version) , that would not want me to pop Nascent at all since I would reach almost 200k HP and getting 20% more healing. This with Nascent is just crazy if a fight drags on for 1 min or more. 20% more healing and 20% more max HP, AND healing that 20% gained. I mean...wow. Then if I pop nascent 2 times during that fight and Path Spam.....that's kind of overkill if you ask me.

I typically use Thrill before a tank buster and save my equilibrium if I don't get heals following. Healers seem more hesitant to heal a WAR now, and rightly so. So I usually save my equilibrium when thrill is down and try to alternate the two. I find myself scrambling if I pop thrill + equal at the same time. Yes it's a huge jump in HP, but equal is SOOO handy when I use it when thrill is down.

I have always liked the idea of gaining Beast Gauge when a WAR is hit. To your point "fuels the warrior's combat"...this is reminiscent warrior from WoW as it worked the same way with Rage. But then it would be a full on cleave/decimate fest on WAR if that were the case. WAR is in such a precarious position that adding slight buffs would really change it quite a bit. It will be interesting to see what the next expansion holds. Personally I want onslaught beast gauge spender removed with a trait next expansion, and upheaval add a bleed of some sort that I can keep refreshing in future expansions.

LOL couple this new skill with holmgang and this could be quite incredible don't get me wrong. But just seems broken to me. Maybe trait next expansion? Just my thoughts as WAR just feels so comfy for me currently.

I definitely would not want Onslaught removed as a gauge spender unless we get something else to fill the same function. In a optimal fight you do not want to use it outside of IR but having it available to adjust your gauge in case Upheaval drifts and you need to hold it is too useful.



Same with gaining "rage" from taking hits. It sounds nice but it would be a nightmare to work with because of it's unpredictable gauge generation.

Taking a hit right after an Infuriate? You could've potentially just overcapped your gauge and lost dps. Planning with the gauge from hits? You randomly dodge a hit and are now missing gauge you planned on having.
This would be even worse if the gauge generated from hits ends up being an uneven number. Anyone remember 4.0 warrior stances? I'm sure everyone loved having 15 or 8 gauge.

Okay, so I get that in order to go from a 120s CD to 90s, there had to be a nerf of some sort to balance it out. However, I don't understand why that nerf had to be as drastic as cutting down the duration from 20s to 8s. That, that don't seem right at all. What was wrong with 20 seconds?

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Okay, so I get that in order to go from a 120s CD to 90s, there had to be a nerf of some sort to balance it out. However, I don't understand why that nerf had to be as drastic as cutting down the duration from 20s to 8s. That, that don't seem right at all. What was wrong with 20 seconds?

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It didn't get cut down to 8 seconds, that's what the OP proposed. The current duration is 10 seconds and it's easy to explain why because on top of going from a 120 seconds cd to a 90 seconds cd the +20% healing received buff now applies to healing actions, aka oGCDs and instant casts, whereas the old version only applied to spells, aka hard cast healing like Cure 2, Adloqium, Physick and Benefic 2. This change makes the healing buff a lot stronger in an actual fight because healers rarely use hard casts in the first place and on top of that it increases your own healing from Equilibrium.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Let me reiterate my post. It would undermine Nascent + AOE do to the 20% extra healing. [...]

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You don't need to worry about that. Nascent Flash doesn't "heal", it "absorbs". The +20% doesn't affect life-leech/HP absorbed by dealing damage.

What it does affect is Equilibrium, Storm's Path healing (tho [should] not be used during trash pulls), and all other healing spells and abilities with cure potencies.

I already said, WAR is probably the strongest tank in dungeons. It's the closest to not needing any healer at all. You could run with 3 dps, and not lose to missing heals thanks to NF, and SiO. I've had plenty of runs where I didn't even get an Excogitation, or even Embrace was overkill. That's why I said this change is un-needed. Having permanent +20% HP pool and healing bonus just increases the leeway when to heal, and how much to heal - which is already so large.

Try to balance the other tanks for that. You would've to give PLD 100% block rate to even the odds (e.g. by increasing Sheltron duration or a trait that increases your block rate if you get hit/block during x seconds, and can stack up). GNB e.g. would need perma Aurora, and DRK an extra shield for each enemy hit by a "Dark Arts" Flood after the first target.

But honestly, it's possible to run any dungeon with normal comp, and no need for any healing spells (GCD heals) if party is decent and competent, with WAR having the most leeway imho, followed by DRK. So, unless we want to make healers obsolete in dungeons (well, more than they already are), then this change must not happen.

On a side note: should dungeons "damage taken" increase - for whatever reason -, this would serve as a nice first concept. But don't quote me on that.

I don't see the point, to be honest; Thrill of Battle is fine as is.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

You don't need to worry about that. Nascent Flash doesn't "heal", it "absorbs". The +20% doesn't affect life-leech/HP absorbed by dealing damage.

What it does affect is Equilibrium, Storm's Path healing (tho [should] not be used during trash pulls), and all other healing spells and abilities with cure potencies.

I already said, WAR is probably the strongest tank in dungeons. It's the closest to not needing any healer at all. You could run with 3 dps, and not lose to missing heals thanks to NF, and SiO. I've had plenty of runs where I didn't even get an Excogitation, or even Embrace was overkill. That's why I said this change is un-needed. Having permanent +20% HP pool and healing bonus just increases the leeway when to heal, and how much to heal - which is already so large.

Try to balance the other tanks for that. You would've to give PLD 100% block rate to even the odds (e.g. by increasing Sheltron duration or a trait that increases your block rate if you get hit/block during x seconds, and can stack up). GNB e.g. would need perma Aurora, and DRK an extra shield for each enemy hit by a "Dark Arts" Flood after the first target.

But honestly, it's possible to run any dungeon with normal comp, and no need for any healing spells (GCD heals) if party is decent and competent, with WAR having the most leeway imho, followed by DRK. So, unless we want to make healers obsolete in dungeons (well, more than they already are), then this change must not happen.

On a side note: should dungeons "damage taken" increase - for whatever reason -, this would serve as a nice first concept. But don't quote me on that.

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Yeah I could see this as a future expansion evolution of a skill if the damage taken were to increase. I feel the damage taken is fairly low when I play tanks, and when I heal them it's the same. Tanks just mitigate much better then they have in the past. I thoroughly enjoy healing warriors now, and really like the breathing room they offer now that they are pretty much self sufficient for one-on-one combat apart from tank busters.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't see the point, to be honest; Thrill of Battle is fine as is.

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Currently I would agree, and thrill of battle is fairly strong with a self heal, increase to max HP, and 20% increase to incoming healing. With warriors current style of play, and extending the timer would put the skill in the "OP" category. While I really do like the idea of the OP version of the skill. I just think this should be relegated to an expansion trait to further the warrior into a higher incoming damage theater.

I agree on BOTH points

I think there is something missing in the convo, and that is the identity of the war. Op mentions that the war in SHB has an identiy crisis. Do you think this is true? if so what would you change to give war its identity? if not why?

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Originally Posted by Spartan_Aoues

Op mentions that the war in SHB has an identiy crisis. Do you think this is true?

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No.

If there's any identity crisis within the tank role, then it's probably DRK considering how much of its gameplay was changed to resemble WAR--not to mention the loss of Blood Weapon's haste.

But, to be perfectly honest, I roll my eyes at almost every mention of "job identity."

Like, what do you even mean? Without sufficient elaboration, it's just meaningless fluff trying to sound important.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

But, to be perfectly honest, I roll my eyes at almost every mention of "job identity."

Like, what do you even mean? Without sufficient elaboration, it's just meaningless fluff trying to sound important.

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The term job identity refers to a combination of a classes game play and ascetics. Or the feel of a job. When i think of a paladin i don't think 2 handed zerker who heals from his attacks and does alot of damage. i think more of block, mediation, high armor, healing/ cast heals/support buffs etc.

When someone says that they think war is in an identity crisis, i think they are trying to articulate that the look and feel of the job is inconsistent, mismatched, or feels like another class fantasy.

hope that helps

Job identity is somewhat of a vague criticism. It's a term you can just toss whenever you want and it's hard to argue, they're empty calories in a discussion.

Simply put, job identity is when a job doesn't suit YOUR expectations. Nothing about the objective feel or distinction of the kit.

I want my SB DRK back.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Job identity is somewhat of a vague criticism.

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Agreed its highly subject but not completly

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Originally Posted by Hierro

It's a term you can just toss whenever you want and it's hard to argue, they're empty calories in a discussion.

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no

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Simply put, job identity is when a job doesn't suit YOUR expectations. Nothing about the objective feel or distinction of the kit.

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This is true. If it did suit their expectations they would not be complaining.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I want my SB DRK back.

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Some people like the old iteration, nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Spartan_Aoues

Agreed its highly subject but not completly


no


This is true. If it did suit their expectations they would not be complaining.


Some people like the old iteration, nothing wrong with that.

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Totally just captured the 4 stages of grief in that reply lol. I agree with your definition of job identity. ESPECIALLY in a long and established series like FF where the jobs usually return with same abilities, looks, skills or at least a very similar theme. If a job is completely unrelatable or unrecognizable in a long standing series where it is constantly reoccuring, then it totally has a problem with its identity.

Hm.

What they really should do is get rid of Raw Intuition, and let Nascent Flash's self-heals push you up past 100% to a cap of say 120%. Then let Thrill of Battle boost NF's self-healing and increase the temporary cap further.

Do you remember popping all of your abilities to see how high you could push your max HP up with Thrill of Battle? That should be WAR defensively in a nutshell. Everything should synergize to give you more temporary max HP that you can heal up to through NF. The harder you hit, the higher you push your temporary HP total up.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hm.

What they really should do is get rid of Raw Intuition, and let Nascent Flash's self-heals push you up past 100% to a cap of say 120%. Then let Thrill of Battle boost NF's self-healing and increase the temporary cap further.

Do you remember popping all of your abilities to see how high you could push your max HP up with Thrill of Battle? That should be WAR defensively in a nutshell. Everything should synergize to give you more temporary max HP that you can heal up to through NF. The harder you hit, the higher you push your temporary HP total up.

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It would certainly be an interesting idea and, this is only my personal opinion, fit the "idea" of warrior better. You're not really mitigating damage, you're simply pushing through the pain with sheer rage.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hm.

What they really should do is get rid of Raw Intuition, and let Nascent Flash's self-heals push you up past 100% to a cap of say 120%. Then let Thrill of Battle boost NF's self-healing and increase the temporary cap further.

Do you remember popping all of your abilities to see how high you could push your max HP up with Thrill of Battle? That should be WAR defensively in a nutshell. Everything should synergize to give you more temporary max HP that you can heal up to through NF. The harder you hit, the higher you push your temporary HP total up.

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holy shit yes. rewards uptime with a shield i like that.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It would certainly be an interesting idea and, this is only my personal opinion, fit the "idea" of warrior better. You're not really mitigating damage, you're simply pushing through the pain with sheer rage.

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yup clock.!!

IMO Thrill should have been the "On demand CD". And Raw Intuition should have been the longer CD.