As we all know, scathe has kinda fallen to the wayside. With all the awesome content forcing frequent movements, it's a huge challenge (at least for me) to manage Enochian and not drop astral fire, while still following the ABC rule. While I'm still working on the "git gud" aspect of knowing the fights and pre-positioning, I would also like to submit a suggestion to adjust scathe to help deal with frequent movement.
As a side note, I also think scathe uses way too much MP and needs an adjustment there (maybe 0 mp? :D)
I think use of scathe should have an additional effect that will grant an instant cast of another ability. I submit that it should proc either a swiftcast-like effect, or have it grant a F3/T3 proc. This obviously would require slight adjustments, but I think that forcing it to involve 2 gcds would make it overall be a dps loss to use it (and hence balancing this). This would be a similar concept to using Ruin 2 on Summoner/Scholar when needing to move.
What are your thoughts?
EDIT: My suggestion is purely for expanding movement options as currently the rule is just to move and eat the partial GCD loss or hope you have procs up.
BLM - Scathe adjustment suggestion
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08-25-2020, 04:04 PMDoctor_MinimeBLM - Scathe adjustment suggestion
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08-25-2020, 04:29 PMHeulGDarian
im pretty sure scathe is there in case you ever lose enochian, something that you shouldnt ever do. Besides that maybe for prior to enochian levels. idk dude its not like making scathe better will just make it more usable the rotation is already fluid enough and has everything it needs especially now with xenoglossy letting you be even more mobile.
Im of the philosophy that if something performs as intended you dont need to overupgrade it nor remove it. A fridge is nice, do i want it to have tv and internet functions no not really. -
08-25-2020, 05:33 PMDoctor_MinimeRight now scathe is completely useless end game. It is a dps loss to even hit it while moving (assuming your movement is minimal). I'm not looking to add scathe to the rotation, but my suggestion is to provide better ways of movement during fights (while maintaining GCD uptime) as currently we're relying on having triple/swiftcast up or procs and it's clunky at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeulGDarian
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08-25-2020, 07:36 PMEliadilI think we're slowly moving towards more proc usage and more ways to reliably get procs. Right now, Sharpcast got a cooldown reduction of 30sec, this doesn't seem like much, but it's basically a free firestarter proc every fire rotation, which is a really good movement tool as well as a fire timer reset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minime
If anything, Scathe should see a bigger increase in its proc chance for double damage, as right now it's low enough to not warrant any use of it, but you shouldn't touch the spell more. Scathe is basically here for peoples who still learns a fight or the job. It's a mean to not get completely behind. It's bad if you use it, but it's worse if you don't use anything. It's more of a "catch-up" tool than anything, and I like it that way. It's like the small wheels on the side of a kid's bicycle. It's neat for learning, but once you know how to ride, you will not miss them at all. :p
If anything, for movement purpose I think that allowing for instant F3/B3 when swapping polarity is a way better solution in the long run than Scathe buffs. :D -
08-25-2020, 10:42 PMPyurBlue
I can understand wanting some more use for Scathe, but BLM already has a lot of movement options. Adding more would almost turn it into a physical ranged class that could move freely all the time.
This actually makes Enochian slightly tighter because the AF/UI timer would begin earlier in the GCD. Not really a huge issue, but I'm fine with the 3 spells having a short cast time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliadil
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08-26-2020, 12:20 AMDoctor_Minime
I would like to stress that I wasn't think of this for a DPS gain, but rather of softening the impact of moving. Memoria Miseria & E7S are the harshest examples...not that the fights aren't doable, but constant moving during birdnado phase makes me want to cry.
Of course there's always the git gud method, but that can be really frustrating :) -
08-26-2020, 04:09 AMty_taurus
If the goal is to have Scathe's DPS loss be softer, you could just receive a Scathe II at level 82 or something come 6.0 that increases the potency. As it stands, it's job is basically to act like a spare tire--something you want to have just in case you really need it, but also something you would prefer to never have to use which is fine.
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08-26-2020, 04:53 AMKatie_Kitty
I mean you're basically asking to be given dualcast which is a pretty insane suggestion to make. How much easier and more powerful do BLM mains need to be?
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08-26-2020, 05:35 AMDoctor_Minime
Again, not looking for a dps increase. plus if it were just a firestarter proc, that would be 240 + 100 / 2 = 170 potency, hardly game-breaking.
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08-27-2020, 04:04 AMKatie_KittyBLM has no need for scathe at this point. That's just a fact. They have all the movement tools they need. In fact you can even argue that it's been made too easy over time to justify all the people who still claim erroneously that "BLM is super hard and that's why it needs to do a million damage."Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
Just saying this is a pointless change. -
08-27-2020, 04:58 AMwereotter
Most jobs have skills that they retain at level 80 that lost their usefulness long before that. Scathe is just another of those that while you've obtained better tools, there's no real skill that can outright replace it and have it still make sense in the same way as something like upgrading Thunder to Thunder 3.
Other examples are things such as Fists of Earth becomes entirely useless on monk once you obtain Fists of Fire. Tranpose in your own kit loses a lot of its value once you have Fire 3 and Blizzard 3 and then looses it entirely once you have Umbral Soul. Ninja has no use these days for Fuma Shuriken, Summoner has very little use for Ruin 2.
These skills fill a gap that you might need/want in your kit at lower levels, that's all they're there for. Maybe they'll be culled in a future expansion, otherwise you can just not place them on your bar once they no longer serve a purpose and forget they exist. -
08-27-2020, 05:16 AMBeddictUmbral Soul can only be used under the effects of Umbral Ice. If you end combat with a Fire skill you still need Transpose to switch over which does make it useful all the way through to 80. If a boss is going to disappear then I'm going to want hit them with a Despair before they go, I can Transpose and Umbral Soul when I'm not doing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
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08-27-2020, 05:51 AMwereotterI don't play much black mage, so thank you for the information. Though the fact remains that the skill wains in usefulness at higher levels, and there are still several skills on other jobs that, like Scathe, have no use by the time you're at level 80, which was my point. It's there to serve a purpose a lower levels, and that purpose gets over shadowed by better skills as you level, but those skills don't replace Scathe because they're not the same kind. Like they couldn't effectively replace Scathe with Sharpcast or TriplecastQuote:
Originally Posted by Beddict
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08-27-2020, 06:03 AMwaifugenerator
I only use Scathe in pre-lv44 content as a way to weave transpose cos I REFUSEEEEE to go straight from f1 to transpose it feels wrong in a single target rotation
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08-28-2020, 01:22 PMDoctor_Minime
I just want something that's not "stop casting and move, lose most of a gcd, then f4 again". Even if it's mostly DPS neutral. It's not OP to ask for QOL changes ya know
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08-28-2020, 05:32 PMEliadilThis reason is fine, for sure. And it's also why Sharpcast exists, as well as Pyro and Thunder procs. You can get a pyro proc every time you enter your fire phase, which is plenty enough to get the mobility you need for most fights, don't worry. Try playing a bit around it, you'll see that you actually have an enormous amount of mobility just because of this skill alone. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minime
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08-28-2020, 06:02 PMMiminming
if it's dps neutral it's pretty much a buff because you can now just braindead it why playing wrongly... ad get same dps
i don't mind any buff but still should be significantly low, i don't want to the appear of scathe mage... -
08-28-2020, 06:31 PMDuskane
could just combine Scathe and Thunder
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08-28-2020, 06:35 PMEliadilMaking Scathe refresh Thunder would be interesting, but you'd have to make sure that a thunder proc would still be a better option out of the two, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duskane
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08-29-2020, 05:50 AMwaifugenerator
Just delete scathe we have so many mobility tools at this point that we almost don't really have any trade off for our absurdly high DPS — bar having no utility
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08-29-2020, 01:13 PMArchwizard
In my opinion, Scathe should be removed - replaced with a soloing tool like Drain - and Blizzard 1 should be instant. Maybe even add an extra trait at high level that makes Fire 1 instant after its replaced with Fire IV.
Two birds with one stone. -
08-30-2020, 02:34 AMDoctor_MinimeSharpcast helps a bit, pyro procs don't happen every time we F1 (kinda wish it did? maybe?), and triplecast is used on CD for DPS gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliadil
DPS neutral compared to moving and losing uptime, DPS loss to spam it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miminming
I don't feel like we do though. There's a reason BLM is #3 on the death list.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4267842240.jpg
This guy gets it. That's actually not a bad idea, make F1 & B1 instacast! And upgrading scathe to drain would give some survivability options when not in a dungeon/raid.Quote:
In my opinion, Scathe should be removed - replaced with a soloing tool like Drain - and Blizzard 1 should be instant. Maybe even add an extra trait at high level that makes Fire 1 instant after its replaced with Fire IV.
Two birds with one stone.
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08-30-2020, 08:31 AMArchwizardBlizzard 1 is pretty pointless after you unlock UI3, and with Umbral Soul there's already precedent for "instant UI refresher"; giving the same to B1 at least at early-mid levels (if not baseline) would still give Umbral Soul a space for when the boss can't be targeted. If you see a hit coming and desperately need to move, no Triplecast or Xeno or procs, worst case scenario you can Transpose then B1 spam until you can sit still. Sure you would lose DPS, but that's just a given for BLM any time they need to move anyway, and Scathing during AF is probably a bigger loss on MP costs alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minime
Extending it to Fire 1 would actually be a huge QoL buff, if not a small DPS buff, so I could see them adding some kind of trait for that well into the 70s or 80s.
As for Drain, presently BLM only has Sleep and Manaward to survive in solo content, and from my memory it really wasn't enough for a lot of the solo scenarios you run into while questing. It doesn't have Vercure, early Physick or Titan, Bloodbath or Second Wind to recover, and Manaward is basically the BLM equivalent to the DR from Arm's Length.
So long as it's not the version of Drain we had in Stormblood anyway. Something stronger but still spammable. I usually say shoot for around 200 potency with 100%-150% healing. Still a DPS loss, but at least a decent amount of healing if you string several casts.