So a while back I did a big thing about a different take on the healers, but that was messy, and I wanted to take a step back and look at the healer that started my journey in FFXIV: Scholar.
I have been here since the open Beta, and once the game officially launched, Scholar was what I played almost exclusively until Heavenwards where I grabbed Astrologian as well (and eventually White Mage in Stormblood).
In my opinion, Scholar has always felt a little messy HW onward, even if it was performing rather well. Now more than ever, it feels like the developers have lost the original identity of Scholar, and many of us feel frustrated on the way the job has been handled. I want to go over these issues as well as a cleaner solution that takes the Scholar back to their roots with a system that compliments their play style in a way that stands out against the other healers. Let's start with the issues:
1. The loss of DoTs through every expansion (and Bane).
2. The homogenization of Eos and Selene.
3. The unresponsive pet issues.
4. The counter-intuitive design of actions like Dissipation and the ineffectiveness of actions like Deployment Tactics
These are the overarching issues that umbrella all the rest. So what's the solution? Personally, I feel that the different healers should cater to different play styles. We've historically argued over healer DPS, but the way the game is designed does demand it to some degree. We ultimately do need to address encounter design as a whole to give healers more opportunities to heal, but DPS contribution should be considered when designing each job. For that reason, I think much like how the Scholar began, it should be treated as the DPS heavy healer who wants to spend more time directly DPSing. We could contrast this with Astrologian who I think should be designed to be more supportive and spread DPS boosts through GCD actions to give the healers who want to DPS as little as possible a healer to match their play style, but that's another topic. The point is, understand this design is assuming there would be a DPS-minimal foil to this design.
Let's talk about actions. I want to emphasize the importance of separating what is GCD (Spells) vs what is OGCD (Abilities). These ultimately determine how much time you can DPS by healing outside of your GCD, and I really want to make that an element to Scholar optimization. Additionally, I want to really make the Scholar a resource management healer like no other--where managing your aetherflow and fey gauge are both very important to your ability to keep your DPS contribution high while keeping the team healthy. So lets discuss tools.
Deployment Tactics and Emergency Tactics:
I want to rework DT and ET completely to be essentially stances you switch between or turn off based on your needs.
DT causes all your GCD spells (excluding Resurrection and Shadowflare) to be AoEs with a range of 15y for healing and 8y for DPS. As a consequence, potencies are halved and MP cost is doubled.
ET increases the potency of GCD heals (excluding Resurrection) by 50% and doubles the MP cost.
DT would be learned at level 10 while ET would be learned at level 15
GCD Healing Actions (Spells):
- Physick (No Change)
- Resurrection (No Change)
- New Epiphany (level 84 going into 6.0) - 700 Potency heal on the GCD but with a 45 second CD.
That's it. With the way DT and ET now work, you'll essentially be augmenting Physick when you need more potent healing that your abilities can't cover. Later when you get Epiphany, you'll have the ability to respond more aggressively in emergencies, but the point this Scholar is to stay DPSing through the use of your abilities.
GCD DPS Actions (Spells):
- Broil Spells
- Ruin II (Upgrade and Rename to Klaustra)
- Bio/Biolysis
- Miasma/Miasmolysis
- Shadowflare
- New Helix (Explained Below)
- New Nightshade (Level 86)
Because of the new DT, you can use it to turn your DPS actions into AoEs, so you won't need Bane or Art of War. This will reduce button bloat as a result.
Let's start with Helix. Helix is a weaker Broil, but it will change Broil, Bio, and Miasma into Aether Syphon, Spirit Syphon, and Mana Syphon respectively for 1 cast. AS is damage equal to Broil and restores Aetherflow, SS is the same but restores Fey Gauge, and MS is the same but restores a chunk of your MP. It's ultimately a DPS loss, but you need to use these tools as they're the only source of Aetherflow and Fey Gauge generation now, and you'll need to restore your MP as you use DT and ET especially.
Essentially, it's a new combo mechanic that will be the bread and butter of Scholar optimization--managing your resources through DPS so that you can stay DPSing. You'll need your Aetherflow and Fey Gauge to use your healing and mitigation abilities.
Nightshade would be a new GCD action every 60 seconds that does high damage to enemies standing in Shadowflare.
Aetherflow Actions (Abilities):
- Adloquium
- Succor
- Excogitation
- Chain Stratagem
- New Assuage (Level 90)
Since there's no longer a timer on how many stacks of Aetherflow you get, and you have to manually generate them, there's no longer a need for energy drain. Instead, Aetherflow will grant you the ability to use largely mitigation tools.
Adloquium and Succor would change to be abilities that are OGCD and that would now only grant a shield and not heal (the shield will be stronger to compensate for the lost healing). These are used to block damage so that you don't need to heal it in the first place. Assuage would be the level 90 capstone of 6.0 being an AoE Excog on a longer CD.
Lastly, Chain Stratagem would change to be a self buff only--one that would be smaler like a 5% buff, but would last longer and you could keep up on yourself. Since this Scholar would be DPS heavy, they wouldn't need raid-wide support tools like AST does, but it's something you'd want to keep up as much as possible to max your own DPS and enable more frequent Critloquiums. Speaking of which...
One new added trait, possibly the level 78 trait, could be that when using Adloquium while Chain Stratagem is up, it consumes the buff and gaurantees a critloquium.
Fey Gauge Actions:
- Fey Blessing (Replaces Indomitably)
- Fey Gift (Replaces Lustrate)
- New Fey Dawn
- New Fey Dusk
Fey Blessing and Fey Gift are just Indomitability and Lustrate but now with the Fey Gauge as a resource. Basically the Fey Gauge is your way of maintaining HP when the team has sustained damage without needing to stop your DPS.
Fey Dawn and Fey Dusk will merge with Sacred Soil in a sense to create a new identity for each faerie.
Eos can use Fey Dawn, granting a HoT effect to the party and reduces damage taken by the party by 10%.
Selene can use Fey Dusk, granting a movement speed buff and increases the amount of HP recovered by healing actions for the party.
Using Fey Dawn will cause Eos to change into Selene and vice versa, so your faerie will be shifting throughout the fight.
Lastly, Seraphic Veil and Angel's Whisper when Seraph is summoned will replace and mimic Fey Gift and Fey Blessing respectively.
Let's talk about buttons and what buttons would be merged. Here's a list of all the buttons you could possibly have on your hotbar:
- Repose
- Esuna
- Lucid Dreaming
- Surecast
- Swiftcast
- Rescue
- Physick
- Epiphany
- Resurrection
- Deployment Tactics
- Emergency Tactics
- Broil III/Aether Syphon
- Biolysis/Spirit Syphon
- Miasmolysis/Mana Syphon
- Shadowflare
- Klaustra
- Helix
- Nightshade
- Adloquium
- Succor
- Excogitation
- Assuage
- Chain Stratagem
- Summon Eos/Fey Dawn
- Summon Selene/ Fey Dusk
- Summon Seraph/Consolation
- Fey Gift/Seraphic Veil
- Fey Blessing/Angel's Whisper
- Sic
- Heel
- Place
- Away
- Limit Break
- Sprint
Total: 34 if all buttons are used.
Overall, the ultimate goal here is to reinforce the things that made many of us turn to Scholar to begin with--take advantage of that play style and design it in a way that flows together. Everything here has a purpose, and while this means dropping a lot of things to minimize bloat, many of those purposes have been merged into existing tools. For example, Recitation is gone, but Chain Stratagem now allows for a more constant crit buff on yourself to replace that.
Scholar: Returning to Roots
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08-25-2020, 05:07 AMty_taurusScholar: Returning to Roots
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08-27-2020, 08:17 AMTruen
Yes. Virtually everyone agrees with you on the 4 major issues you raised...but Square Enix ISN'T TELLING US ANYTHING!!!!!!
And, my LORD the SCH is boring to quest through, grind, and level.
Broil, broil, broil, broil...OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN sucks! -
08-27-2020, 08:48 AMHeulGDariani pray i really pray , that after all the outrage that happened about smn and sch, they understand that this time they messed up really bad . Almost every single change they did worsened the jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truen
However i think they re going to keep going this way and instead add to current version , effectively having them be reworked over the whole shadowbringers expansion.
Most propably though? nah they dont know what they are doing and theyll keep trying on their own , cause none of them play these jobs and they cant get any bloody info from forums when half the community is asking for complete different jobs unrelated to the current ones. -
08-27-2020, 11:06 AMKabooa
I would not call this a "Returns to the roots." I would even say it's a bigger departure.
Minor things
Eos and Selene are still basically the same, only Eos is just better, and you're forced to use Selene because you can't get back to Eos otherwise. Nobody wants to be Soldier's Paen.
Emergency Tactics applies to two skills, two skills you probably never want to use, one of which is a not inconsiderate cooldown. This is the realm of abilities that get cut.
Nightshade's fine. Probably just make Shadowflare change into it once it's down.
Big Thing
Making Aetherflow and Fey power compete with each other as well as competing with MP regen is going to lead to absolutely terrible results when-things-go-wrong(tm). I'm not seeing why Aetherflow can't remain a limited supply with a timer which in turn limits Fey Power.
Making them compete immediately calls into question, despite having no numbers, how efficient they are compared to each other. Remember that shielding is superior only if it prevents a death from 100% HP or prevents the application of a debuff, otherwise shielding and healing are identical.
If it costs a GCD to shield 40,000 damage, and it costs a GCD to heal 40,000 damage, there is no difference in the choice here. Either way you have to "Take the DPS loss" to do it.
If the two are equally powerful, then is it even a choice? This is the part that makes this scholar a more wayward version than what we have even now - the change of its resource acquisition, and how its resources competes with the rest of the kit.
You didn't have competing resources before - you had a competition of how you spent them. You got 3 AF a minute. Those AF turn into Fey Power. That Fey Power was effectively more healing. That more healing, used well, allowed you to do less of the healing yourself as the Faerie handled more of it, which in turn allowed you to focus more on damage spells.
But putting their sole generation onto what is effectively a filler spell, and splitting that between "Heals, Shields, or Damage" effectively removes not only choice in the player's actions but also the design consistency the job currently has.
I honestly don't see why you couldn't just slap Miasma, Shadowflare, and Bane back onto the scholar we have now and stop there. I'll dump on standalone DoTs as gameplay as much as ever, but it's more in line with the scholar's "Roots" than fundamentally rewiring its resource game. -
08-28-2020, 04:53 PMty_taurusOkay, so you make some good points, and as I was thinking about some of the things I agree with and disagree with regarding your critique. To properly explain, I need to start with something that I disagree with you on: shielding vs healing. The way the Scholar is currently designed, you're right. Healing and shielding are virtually the same unless the shield prevents an otherwise unavoidable death. Adloquium and Succor both consume a use of the GCD, so if that shield isn't necessary for survival, there's no use shielding allies when you could heal with OGCD abilities instead. This is ultimately why I wanted to change them to be OGCD actions that exclusively shield. This is because, if the shielding isn't competing with your DPS, then it actually does serve as a different purpose: making it so that you don't need to heal in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
The problem that you revealed to me was that I ultimately ended up creating the same exact problem in a different part of the kit design. Your shields no longer compete with your DPS, but now they compete with resource generation for you OGCD healing tools. Essentially, this design needs to have resource generation for your shielding be its own thing and not compete with other resources.
This leads me to the Helix combo system for resource generation. The main reason I wanted something like this was because, as you brought up here briefly (and I believe have brought up in other threads), DoTs alone are not an engaging or intuitive gameplay style. Personally, I feel that adding a layer of resource management to the Scholar's DPS tools does make sense from a thematic standpoint while also tying their DPS tools and healing tools together. Based on what was discussed above, fey gauge generation would need to be taken off as a form of competition for aetherflow generation. If we just keep it as is, but maybe have it so that spending aetherflow gives you 10 gauge, but Fey Blessing/Gift require 30, perhaps that could make the additional healing feel valuable. Thinking about this more, and regarding your critique of Emergency Tactics which I completely agree with, I had a thought.
What if instead of having Epiphany as this GCD heal with a cooldown, Fey Blessing/Gift are actually made GCD healing spells that are also affected by Emergency Tactics, only with the caveat that Fey Gauge will allow them to be used OGCD instead? I figure this could be a better system then just having Fey Blessing/Gift automatically become OGCD when you have enough Fey Gauge to spend that way you have control over when you want to spend your Fey Gauge.
Going back to the DPS for a second, we could also make the combo for resource system more efficient by cutting out the added Helix spell and just turning Ruin II/Klaustra into it, and your DPS weave will also enable you to get either MP back or 1 Aetherflow stack inbetween uses? We could then drop it from a 3-way choice to a 2-way choice, and because it exists on your weave, you will naturally generate these resources as you DPS. I can agree that having a button to generate Aetherflow for when you need it can still be useful though, so perhaps that should return as well, and since we're talking about cutting out more bloat from this design, there's room for it easily.
Lastly we can talk about the Eos and Selene differences. Prior to Shadowbringers, their differences created an interesting dynamic where Eos was preferred by casual players and new players since she made healing easier, but Selene's DPS contribution made her effectively superior since Eos' healing and support were ultimately not necessary for surviving any fights. In essence, it's the same issue--one is flat out better than the other, but I agree that my iteration is actually worse having put it the way you have. At least with the old system, Eos had a purpose as a kind of training wheels for your Scholar, but here, Selene would be more of a reluctant benefit rather than something desired. I think it could work better if their buffs were simplified and Eos acted as the AoE regen while Selene brought Sacred Soil's DPS reduction. Then there's two play styles of either preventative or reactive healing, but would that be enough? Ideally, the two should feel like they each have a purpose and that one isn't objectively better in all forms of content, but I'm curious what you think could be the best way to move forward with them.
I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on this whenever you have the time. -
08-29-2020, 02:50 AMKabooaI don't think Scholar has a resource problem. The Aetherflow -> Fey Power dynamic is fine, the primary issue is Fey Power doesn't have that much to it. However, rearranging the skills as you have alleviates this issue somewhat. Removing the competition of resource generation, in my opinion, allows you to better construct the kit without creating the illusion of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
So Spend Aetherflow -> Get Fey Power. This is fine. I would rather not move Succor or Adloqium off to their own land as for one, they're baseline tools that the Scholar should ideally have access to at all times, and two, they serve as a baseline from which to judge other tools by.
Helix seems to me as a natural "The Smarter Energy Drain" and having it shift your main skills is good. I've seen some talk of Damage-to-Healing and this seems a fitting place to put that sort of power fantasy.
Consider that Aetherflow currently has for selection
Lustrate
Indom
Sacred Soil
Excog
Energy Drain
Minus Energy Drain, which would become Helix in this example, these all have some pretty comparable baseline skills to work from. Lustrate - Ruin2/Klaustra. Sacred Soil - Shadow Flare. Excog - Bio. Indom - Miasma/Art of War assuming they retain the PBAOE identity.
So, the basic aetherflow loop is 3 / minute. Helix would be an instant GCD in this example, morphing your baseline spells into the Aetherflow OGCDs. So your basic approach is:
[DPS rotation] -> [Use Helix] -> [Weave desired Aetherflow Ability]. We can improve the potency of Helix so that it is higher baseline potency given that it is a limited shot ability. We could also make Helix a context target ability, allowing it to heal when targeting allies - Making it more flexible while also allowing you to dump during transitions so you can keep Aetherflow rolling.
There is the downside of this flattening the Aetherflow/Drain optimization, but I think the overall shift would be a bigger plus. Optimization will always happen, and it will always adapt.
From a UI perspective, this does add some encumbrance as you have to spend your Helix-enabled-ability during its weave window else you're just left with Broil, but I might be in the minority where I like that kind of thing. YMMV, and there's design room there. I'm generally a fan of consolidation where it can happen because it opens up room for more things.
As for the Faeries, that's a long and hard question. I'm pretty biased in that I think FF14's pet systems are a giant mistake given how much trouble they consistently have in their operation.
I'd overhaul them, but how it'd be done would change depending on what day you asked me.
Edit:
Deployment tactics being an "AoE stance" I kind of dig. It works in any capacity, be it a cooldown, a toggle, or even an aetherflow option. Lots of ways to implement this. Just figured I'd touch on it since I was focusing on non-expansion stuff in this post.
Emergency Tactics as a baseline is just in a strange spot. It's not something I'm comfortable removing, but trying to improve it in a thematically sensible fashion steps on the toes of other abilities like Recitation or Dissipation. -
08-29-2020, 04:17 AMty_taurus
So there are two main reasons I really like the idea of changing Adlo and Succor to Aetherflow actions that just add a flat shield rather than heal and shield. The first is related to that shielding vs healing difference I talked about above. With your Galvanize spells competing with DPS, you have to ask why would you take the time to use them when you could realistically use Lustrate, Indomitability, Fey Blessing, Summon Seraph/Consolation, Sacred Soil, Whispering Dawn, or Excotigation. Scholar has a lot of OGCD heals to work with, so the amount of times Adlo/Succor become worthwhile are very small, especially with modern encounter design not really pushing much healing or support requirements during smooth runs. The other reason is more of a personal preference. I kind of want to see the scholar's tools become more organized.
With the way I set things up, shielding and delayed heal are what your Aetherflow grants you along with Chain Stratagem while all your OGCD healing is on the fey gauge. It's more neat this way which is probably something no one cares about, but that scratches a certain itch I have because I really want things to be neatly lined up like that. Right now, your aetherflow can let you heal, mitigate, damage, or offer a delayed heal, which just is a lot of stuff to pack into one box. Maybe this is just silly reasoning.
The other option is the ability to keep Adlo and Succor but make OGCD shields that rely on your Aetherflow, but I personally want to try and cut out as much button bloat as possible, and I see the shift being a great way to to do that.
As for the faeries, I'd personally want to explore the option of removing them as pets and instead have be "spell effects" or something like that. Rather than have the separate model and AI, the faerie is an effect around your character that stays up permanently. Perhaps we could even change them to be sitting on your shoulder in situations where they would be following you, but also have the option to place them somewhere (in which they would teleport to that location). How easy or difficult this would be to implement depends on a few factors regarding how their system works though, and I could see it being a total pain in the neck to create while still feeling like your faerie is with you and not downgraded to a buff. That result would be the last thing I would want out of this change, but if done correctly, we could completely eliminate the pet unresponsiveness issue. -
08-30-2020, 01:14 AMEloah
I agree with only two of your 4 initial points; points 3 and 4. Points 1 and 2 are a bit arbitrary.
For point 1, it's the sense that, SCH, branching from a dps class use to have more DoTs, and in the long run deal more damage. But this was based on fight duration vs healer damage contribution. SCH had the best "sustained" damage because fights took longer than a few minutes. I'm not saying adding in another DoT is out of the question, but given the goal to allow healers to contribute more damage up front, and focus on healing, another DoT just for SCH is very unlikely. Especially, since most DoT were removed from the game, and most jobs only have one anyway.
As for point 2 regarding faerie homogenization. Ultimately, it wasn't about each faeries individual contribution, but which faerie granted the greatest dps boost. While it's easy to think Selene granted to best boost, other factors are in play as well. From ARR to SB, faerie usage went Eos, Selene, Eos, because per expansion that faerie offered to biggest boost to overall dps. In ARR, SCH was meh with heals, but thanks to the faerie's free healing, combined with SCH DoTs, healing and dpsing in tandem was easy with Eos, since Selene's dps boosts were split and only effected a small portion of overall damage output. However in HW, because SCH got some tools to contribute more healing if needed, and Selene's dps boost got an overhaul, Selene became the mainly used faerie. But when SB launched and the faerie was hit with the nerf bat, Eos became popular again since she supplemented some healing to allow SCH to dps more. Really what most people want is Fey Wind to return. And there is no reason it can't return and just be another faerie skill like the current ones.
As for the other two points. For point 3, yes the faerie ghosting is an issue that should be addressed. Additionally, the faerie needs a boost in potency. Nerfing her made "sense" when SCH was the only one with "free" healing. But now that each healer has skills on par with the faerie she is falling behind.
For point 4, I agree Dissipation is not a good skill and wish they'd change it. Personally, I'd like to see it become something similar to Assize and Earthly Star, where it deals maybe 250 potency damage and places a 500 potency shield on all allies. No heal. That I think is the biggest issue SE hasn't addressed, SCH wants more shielding skills.
For the other part of point 4, regarding ET and DT. I agree both skills are a bit meh, but turning them into stances isn't the answer. For starters, it's been proven over the years, stances such as you have suggested don't work. Either the stance change wasn't all that great, like Ninja poisons. Or one is clearly "always" better than the other, like the lost Tank-DPS stance. Stances only work if they act as mini cycles, like with Bard and SMN, or if they are meant to act as foils for another job, like AST sects. Plus if you give SCH stances, it might start to feel like a clone of AST in some regards. Not to mention as a healer, swapping between the stances you have suggested might cause more strife. If anything I think adjusting ET and DT to work on more skills would be more beneficial. DT could spread Chain Stratagem. And ET could be inverted somehow to just apply a shield when healing isn't needed.
I should really delve into that "rework" I've wanted to try for a while. As I feel it would address some common concerns, while maintaining the current systems the game is using, without going to far in any other direction. -
08-30-2020, 01:30 AMAbsurdityI think it's worth clarifying that SCH doesn't need more shielding skills but shielding skills that are actually useful. Outside of downtime it is not worth using shields when you have to spend a GCD or even worse a GCD to apply it and then a weaving window to spread it, the shields are nowhere near powerful enough to spend that amount of time on them. Why waste GCDs to shield when the aoe won't kill anyone and you can just heal the damage with planned oGCDs? Dissipation becoming an oGCD aoe shield wouldn't have that issue, just like Seraph's shield is pretty much the only really useful shield since you can weave it so worst case you're only losing 80 potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
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08-30-2020, 01:56 AMEloahAgreed. It's more about stackable shields, but yes the shields need a purpose otherwise, why bother. But that change to Dissipation cover both bases so yay. But the CD would need to be reduced to like 60s or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
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08-30-2020, 08:23 AMty_taurus
You bring up a vaild point about stances and how they've traditionally not worked very well, but there's a big difference here because these stances have little to do with DPS. This concept for DT is essentially turning all your single target spells into AoEs. This essentially means you get to use an AoE Physick when you need it, AoE Broil/Biolysis/Miasmolysis instead of needing Art of War or Bane, and essentially allows us to have 1 action instead of several.
ET as I've designed is supposed to turn Physick into a "Physick II of sorts" which inandof itself wasn't really enough to justify it, even if it could also influence this concept for a high CD GCD heal in Epiphany, which is why I ponder if it could be a way to turn GCD actions into OGCD actions to consume resources like the Fey Gauge, but Aetherflow could even make more sense. -
08-30-2020, 04:03 PMGemina
I don't want to see SCH return to its 'roots'. And I do not want to see yet another max level skill be just a skill that was previously taken away with a little spice added. I most certainly don't want the return of stance switching involved with DT/ET as the OP suggests. I can tell he is a Cleric Stance of-old supporter for sure.
This does not mean that ET/DT are not fundamentally flawed. They essentially still work the way they always have since HW, and things have changed since then. DT could honestly be used offensively or in support (spread Bio/Biolysis, or a single cast AoE Broil) and giving the SCH this option would add a nice element of engagement to combat. ET's effectiveness is essentially eliminated by still being tied to a GCD ability and SCH now has more means to ogcd heal since ETs inception. It also has a very short CD, so this ability drifts a good portion of the time. I don't have any idea on how to improve this ability as this time.
If there is any stance switching, I would like to see this with Eos/Selene. This was basically the case pre ShB, but Selene had very situational abilities. Fey Wind was awesome, but having to burn up a swiftcast or hardcast her was a problem. What I would like to see is a fairy that is strong in ST situations, and a fairy that is strong in AoE situations. But I don't want their abilities to simply be ST/AoE variants, but rather how they support the SCH and the group. This would also prevent overlapping should two SCHs be in the same party as both should be using their ST/AoE fairy accordingly. I also want their abilities back on the pet hotbar. I believe it's ok to hardcast the first fairy, but if switching (which is something I want to do), it should be instant.
The Fey Gauge is also a big problem for me. Supporting two abilities, one of which has very limited use outside high-end content, and the other has its own CD and feels like it was slapped in last minute because they had no idea what other abilities to possibly give to SCH.
In short, getting SCH to interact with their fairies is how I feel they will make this job engaging again if they don't want to go the DPS route. This interaction between SCH and fairy is what should fill up the Fey Gauge, and allow the SCH to really do something cool. By cool, I do mean some kind of offensive ability. Aetherflow is aetherflow, and there really isn't much reason to tie to the Fey Gauge to it when itself is a resource to use the powerful abilities it unlocks. Just such silly design that when compared to other job gauges, you can just tell that a lot less thought was put into it. -
08-30-2020, 04:07 PMty_taurus
For the record, I actually am vehemently against the Cleric Stance "of-old." I guess because I proposed a stance concept though, that means I am a supporter of every stance and all stances that have ever stanced in stance history.
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08-30-2020, 06:05 PMGeminaA bit of an overreaction. It's not that; it's that stances just don't work in this game, and that's why they have been eliminated. When you say switch based on needs, the need is and always has been to kill the enemy quickly. This means you will be spending as little time as possible in any stance that does not do this optimally. And while the effects of each stance you proposed I wouldn't call bad or detrimental, but the number crunchers out there will tell you which stance you HAVE to be in, or you are failing at your job. Mind that these are words out of the echo chamber; not my own. However if there is anything I want to avoid like the plague with SCH, is giving it the illusion of choice that once and still does belong to AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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08-30-2020, 08:33 PMty_taurusIt was mostly an overreaction because your statement came across so selfishly. That's not to say "my way is right and if you disagree, you're wrong" case and point my reactions to other's suggestions. Coming out though and saying "well that's not what I want..." Okay, well the game isn't designed for you specifically. The point is to create something that could hopefully make as many players happy as possible, not just make you happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
But besides that factor, This example of DT and ET wouldn't have a DPS impact in the way that you're implying. This DT does impact DPS spells--Halving their potencies but making them AoE, so yes you would swap into it probably for groups of 3 or more to spread your DoTs and use Broil in the way Art of War is. The original concept for ET wasn't as developed and would only essentially make your Physick a "Physick II" while making Epiphany heal for a hefty 1400 Potency once per 45 seconds. There's also that concept of making your Aetherflow and/or Fey Gauge actions GCD actions that do not consume any resources, but turn into OGCD actions that do consume Aetherflow and/or Fey Gauge respectively while under ET, which would give the player the ability to control when they want to turn those tools into OGCDs which would be DPS optimal while you have resources, but there could still be times where you'd rather save your resources for an upcoming mechanic.
There are many stances that have not been utilized well but that doesn't mean stances cannot work and until you can actually back up why ideas like this cannot work with at least theorycrafted examples rather than vague ones, you haven't convinced me. Another thing that could help your case is rather than just yell about ideas you don't like, why not come up with alternate concepts to counter mine? You don't like my version of DT? What would you prefer be down with it? Do you think it should stay as is? If so, why? -
08-30-2020, 09:11 PMGrimGale
I like the Stance concept for SCH. I would like stances based on Black Grimmoire and White Grimmoire like FFXI's scholars. Each stance would be tied to a fairy and would buff a specific part of the SCH kit. Black would increase offensive and debuffing skills making DT spread debuffs and use Selene as a debuffing fairy, while White would empower healing skills and buffing with Eos.
Of course we would be able to switch stances im combat to allow SCH to be able to adapt to the situation. -
08-30-2020, 11:42 PMGeminaWell, then you don't know me very well. I am probably one of the least selfish healers you could have in your group. I say this because I am well acquainted with healers both in game and out, and witness firsthand how selfishly they play and communicate with others in a game that's supposed to be about teamwork and unity. I would flip the coin on you sir, and say that singling out my post as selfish and overreacting simply because I do not agree with your take on the job in fact makes you look that way. If you took offense to anything I have said, it was not my intention to do so. Being a supporter of old Cleric Stance or stance switching in general isn't a bad thing at all. It's just unfortunate that those of this mind were punished so greatly over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
It's difficult to have everyone's best interest in mind when the healer community is as divided as it is. That being said, many of the ideas I hand out on the forums are formulated from the responses and suggestions from the other posters. Most of what I previously suggested has at one point or another been mentioned already, while other things are aspects about the job that are indisputably flawed. The fact I mention any DPS capability at all shows my willingness to see the other side as I am of the 'pure healer' mindset. I DPS on heals because I have to, and I know it's right; not because I like it or want to be doing it.
Actually, considering that stances have pretty much been eliminated completely from the game (MNK still has theirs, but likely to also be gone after 4.4 rework), it is you that has to theorycraft how putting them back will work. You tell me how you will implement a stance where you are not defaulted to the one that causes to most damage or provides the most rDPS? From my observation throughout the years playing this game and mmos in general, stances effectively cut a community in half. Then you have one side in favor of using it how the player sees fit, and another side who tells you to be using it as the meta sees fit. The latter will post numbers, fflogs, and bring up the current raid tier all day to prove than playing any other way is wrong.Quote:
There are many stances that have not been utilized well but that doesn't mean stances cannot work and until you can actually back up why ideas like this cannot work with at least theorycrafted examples rather than vague ones, you haven't convinced me. Another thing that could help your case is rather than just yell about ideas you don't like, why not come up with alternate concepts to counter mine? You don't like my version of DT? What would you prefer be down with it? Do you think it should stay as is? If so, why?
So good sir, trust me when I tell you that my statements does have the community in mind, and not just myself. I am selfish in the sense that a desire to unite the healer community would make me happy. -
08-31-2020, 04:52 AMty_taurus
I don't doubt that you can be a selfless person, no one comment is ever a true reflection of one's character in it's entirety. It's that thing I see a lot on these forums... things like "Seat of Sacrifice is too hard and you need to make it easier because I wiped too many times," or "I don't want to DPS as a healer, therefore the developers need to change healing to fit my standard" are the kinds of attitudes that rub me the wrong way, and that response made it feel like that.
For the record, I wholeheartedly want you to have a healer that plays while doing almost no DPS directly. Personally, what I think will really help the healers redevelop their own identities would be for us and Square to accept that healer RDPS contribution is a thing and will forever be a thing in this game, and to move forward by designing different ways of approaching that to appease every player.
If it were up to me, as this concept suggests, Scholar makes sense to be the DPS heavy healer for the players that want to be hyper offensive healers that need to find ways to keep the team healthy in-between damaging spells.
Astrologian should be Scholar's foil, taking damage buffs off the Cards and having GCD spells that buff allies with utility effects while also damaging that party member's target for their own spells and weaponskills. Ideally, your only direct DPS would come from Combust uptime, Earthly Star, and possibly Lord of Crowns if it gets reworked to something closer to what it used to be.
White Mage would be the happy medium with an expanded version of their lily system--gating high burst damage behind heals that you actively want to seek out (meaning Aff. Misery would need to become stronger than Glare spam, or for us to get a single-target "Afflatus Xenoglossy" type spell that outperforms Glare). This would make you want to heal allies with GCD heals rather than OGCD heals first.
I would really love to hope that the future would ultimately see 6 healers by the end of its lifespan so that there could be 2 options for each style, but who knows if we'll ever even get 5. -
08-31-2020, 05:01 AMJonnycbad
DoT+Bane made sense back in ARR and HW when SCH did not have a GCD AoE. It wasn't until SB that they got Miasma II with good upfront initial damage (was 25 potency in ARRh+/HW, 100 potency in SB). What they managed to do was roll in all the DoT damage from Bane'd Bio II/Bio/Miasma/Shadowflare and put it into Art of War (160 potency, no drop off). SCH therefore now deal more AoE damage now than they ever did, and with no drop off.
In ARR you had:
Bio II: 35 potency/tick
Bio: 40 potency/tick
Miasma: 20 potency up front, 35/tick
Shadowflare: 25 potency/tick
Miasma II: 20 potency upfront, 10 potency
Sum: 140 potency upfront followed by 145/tick on remaining enemies. later on they added a 60% drop off in damage for multiple enemies.
Art of War: 160 potency every 2.5s, no drop off. Why do you want Bane and DoTs again? -
08-31-2020, 05:31 AMty_taurusUh Miasma II was there since day 1 for Summoner and Scholar. It wasnt until it was removed at the start of SB and people complained that it was reinstated for Scholar only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
As for Bane, it's not so much about functionality but about style and theme. There's a difference in the style of spreading DoTs vs a single AoE, and literally no one was asking for that to be changed. Functionally, Art of War is fine, but it is probably one of actions in the game most devoid of any theme, lore, or personality. What does "Art of War" even mean? What am I doing as the Scholar to inflict damage on multiple enemies? Astrologian is crushing several enemies with a sphere of intense gravity. White Mage is conjuring pure light aether to sear and briefly disable nearby enemies. What's Scholar doing?
I'm not saying we need to discredit functionality and care only about aesthetics, but in JRPGs, that's something many people care about. When 5.0 first released, I remember there was a thread someone made about their disappointment to the changes to AST's Celestial Opposition action because the new effects made no sense based on the lore of the move. It was supposed to be the AST tugging at the thread of fate to skew a fight in their favor, and stunning enemies while increasing the duration of all their buffs made sense with that in mind, and then it was converted to just another AoE regen or shield, AKA Aspected Helios 2.0. Yeah it's OGCD so it has an additional use to it, but that's the kind of lore many players want not only in their job's design, but in their actions as well. Proper game design is about effectively uniting style and functionality to create something that flows and fulfills the fantasy of the player. -
08-31-2020, 06:30 AMDBriggs304
What is the issue with SCH? Genuine question. I have an alt and played sch for the first time and am currently level 54 I think.
Their healing output doesnt seem that great. Am I doing something wrong? I feel like I couldn't heal tissue paper...
What has changed since they were..."good" I guess. -
08-31-2020, 06:46 AMty_taurusI think it's important to note that the healers aren't necessarily "unfun" at the moment. The thing is though is that they used to be a lot more fun. For scholar, it comes with them having their DoTs culled from 5 down to 3 before reverting it to 4 in SB, and now down to 1 and we've lost the ability to spread that where we used to be able to spread 4 of the original 5 to nearby enemies. Additionally, Selene and Eos used to have different tools. Not all of these things are just "perfect," but the point is that Shadowbringers reduced the individuality of the healers to try and balance them/make them more approachable. That's not a bad thing to want of course, but the way that it was done just hurt the jobs for those of us that were playing healers already. White Mage is actually an exception as it's a bit better than what it was in Stormblood, though some do still miss Aero 3Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
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08-31-2020, 07:41 AMDBriggs304Thanks for answering!Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
They dont seem to have a lot of skills... -
08-31-2020, 02:32 PMJonnycbadIn Japanese, SCH's Art of War is "Poisoning Arts" so I imagine the skill is basically a reskinned Miasma II but it would be awkward for SCH to have a skill called Miasma II without a Miasma 1, hence the name and theme change.Quote:
What does "Art of War" even mean? What am I doing as the Scholar to inflict damage on multiple enemies?
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08-31-2020, 02:36 PMHeulGDariani dont think the one poisoned when casting that is the addsQuote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
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09-01-2020, 10:24 AMEloahMiasma II in its initial form was garbage. I don't know anyone who used it for its intended purpose, on SMN or SCH, similar to the origianl Tri-Disaster/Tri-bind, the skills were just poorly implemented. Miasma II was given back to SCH in SB not because SCHs wanted a DoT back, but because their AoE was severely diminished going into SB. Giving SCHs back Miasma II was SE's solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Also as far as "Art of War" is concerned. Yes the name is odd, and as someone pointed out the name in Japanese is technically "Poisoning Art", but you do remember that SCH is a Military Tactician, right? I mean the name is odd but it does kinda fit. Maybe keeping Miasma II's animation and making the name sound like a combination of Poisoning Art and Art of War might of been "better", since Art of War sounds more like a trait or something then and actual skill. But it's still a skill that fits within SCHs lore. Which begs the question, Why does SMN still have poisons in their repertoire.
I think you are misremembering some of the information. SCH in 2.0 started out with 4 native DoTs, Bio, Miasma, Bio II, and Miasma II; the first 3 being single target and the last one being AoE, a bad AoE mind you. They were able to cross class two DoTs from THM and CNJ, Thunder and Aero. So in total they had 6 DoTs, though only 5 were of any significant use. But in 2.1 Thunder was removed as a cross-class skill so that dropped SCH down to 5 DoTs, Bio, Miasma, Bio II, Miasma II, and Aero; with it being kept that way until Stormblood. During 2.X and 3.X SCHs were able to cast Bio, Miasma, and Bio II on a target and then use Bane to spread the DoTs to other targets, then they would hard cast Aero on all targets, and spam their filler spell; Ruin in ARR and Broil in HW. It's worth noting that Miasma II has always been an AoE DoT, and was never spreadable by Bane. But the potency of Miasma II in ARR and HW was not worth the cast, as it only did 20 potency up front and 10 potency for 15s, totaling 70 potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Once Stormblood was launched, SE adjusted the cross-class system and moved over to the Role System. With that change SCH lost access to Aero. But what SE also did was make it that skills would upgrade now, so as to avoid button bloat. So instead of needing spells like Ruin and Broil on your bar, one would just automatically upgrade to the other. The same is true for DoTs. Bio II became and upgrade to Bio, and SE removed Miasma II from both SMN and SCH. so when SB launched both SCH and SMN only had 2 DoTs. However, unlike SMN who had other ways to AoE, SCH only had Bane now, and their AoE was severely lacking. SE then added Miasma II back in as a SCH only spell, but adjusted to potency to be 100 potency up front and 25 potency for 12s, totaling 200; which was on par with Holy and Gravity at the time. SE made Miasma II a spell that fit well into SCHs kit, finally.
But with Shadowbringers launch the Miasma, and Miasma II were removed, simplifying healers DoTs to 1 and adding in a more potent burst spell in Art of War.
So to break it down, In ARR 2.0-2.1 SCH had 6 DoTs. From 2.1-HW 3.5 SCH had 5 DoTs. In SB SCH had only 3 DoTs, and come ShB SCH has only 1. And truthfully Miasma II doesn't even register as a proper DoT until SB.
His answer is a bit misinformed. Here is a more accurate account of how things happened. As for the reason for the skill culling it was done by SE to try and prevent skill bloat, which semi worked. As for healers, come Shadowbringers, SE wanted to try and focus them to heal more. Was it successful, meh, but in later portions of the game you might not notice the "lack" of buttons as much as you do when you first start out. I'd say stick with it as long as you enjoy it. I've been a SCH since I basically started and even though I've had some RAGE!!! i still love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
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09-01-2020, 12:38 PMty_taurus
I was also including Shadowflare as a DoT and not really including Thunder or Aero, though you're right about the original Miasma II
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09-01-2020, 03:03 PMAbsurdityYou could probably argue about that one endlessly. Is it a ground target aoe? But it deals tick damage, so is it a DoT?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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09-01-2020, 08:47 PMty_taurusI mean yeah, it's damage over time within the area, and I would consider that a part of Scholar's old DoT arsenal, but it's honestly just semantics really. And if I didn't make this clear before (not specifically as a response to your statement but in general), I don't meant to imply that we should go back to having 6ish DoTs or anything. It was certainly not a bloat issue back then, but today is a different story. More to the point that reducing them down to only 1 is overkill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
I mentioned this earlier, but I also want to stress that DoTs alone were never really enough in terms of making healer DPS more thoughtful or engaging, but as a part of Scholar's identity it does make sense to retain them in at least some sense. Personally I feel that Broil, Biolysis, Miasma/olysis, Ruin II, and Shadowflare make for a great core DPS, but just needs some level of engagement added to the system. That or if we are going to cut actions, replace them with something that brings that engagement. As far as Bane is considered, I'd rather find some alternate way of spreading those DoTs via a trait or something to save on the button slot since SCH has a lot of buttons to manage, especially since you optimally want to use pet actions as well. -
09-01-2020, 11:15 PMBrandedblade
The common theme I've seen around what scholar does have is "cooldowns" and "resource management"
You manage your faerie, which while simpler then it used to be, is still a set of cooldowns that radiate from an external target. where not only are the cooldowns important, but also positioning.
You manage aetherflow, which even if in alot of situations is just dumped into Energy Drain, is still a resource that needs to be maintained, managed, and optimized in the use of, and the reward for doing so is mana sustain whether directly through energy Drain and the cd, or indirectly by healing for "free"
and Finally, you have fae guage, which while limited in what it's used on, is still a resource that you build by using your kit and spent on free healing.
This is the system I hope SE expands upon. instead of merely adding back old flavor spells for the sake of nostalgia and an extra button to press. SE has the potential to expand and the increase the synergies of these resources and make that the loop and complexity of the class.
The thing I ultimately want to see is a bigger emphasis on the fae gauge, give the scholar more ways to generate the gauge, while also giving the scholar more ways to spend it. For example, something simple like "Casting Broil on a target afflicted by your dot(s) generates 5 fae guage" If we want to add dots, they should not be there merely for the sake of having them, they should be something that the scholar is rewarded for maintaining.
We can even sneak a few of our old spells into the system this way, for example, making shadow flare an aoe aetherflow spender or making it faerie flavored and attaching it to Fae Gauge as a situational dump skill (name that comes to mind is Fae Hurricane, if you're wondering) -
09-01-2020, 11:41 PMty_taurusThe scary thing we need to keep in mind when we theorycraft new tools or resource groups is that DPS trumps Healing unless that Healing allows more DPS than the DPS alternative (i.e. Aetherflow healing like Lustrate means less GCDs need to be spent on healing and thus are more DPS than Energy Drain, when used at the right times at least). The same would be true with damage associated with the Fey Gauge. That's not to say it can't play out, but we definitely need to pay close attention to costs and CDs because the second something like Fey Hurricane gets added is the second that Fey Gauge management now revolves around ensuring you have max uptime on Fey Hurricane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
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09-02-2020, 12:24 AMBrandedbladeOh absolutely I do agree with that. That's the tricky spot the fae guage is currently in atm. theres alot of situations where the fae guage is just sitting at full unneeded but at the same time simply throwing a dps skill onto it without very specific restrictions would create the exact situations you described. I do believe that figuring out a way to provide players with a way to dump fae guage without making it the meta to never use it to healing would go quite the way to improving the way sch's toolkit flows together.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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09-02-2020, 03:31 AMKabooa
Well it's a different day, and since we're back on pets, letsgetatit.
While Fey Power is an adequate resource, I think one more fitting to the theme of scholar and that would fit better into having Eos and Selene being different is the idea of scrapping Fey Power and replacing it with a dual-incremental. We shall call it Stratagem.
Crappy MS Paint for reference.
https://i.imgur.com/2t7SbQl.png
We will borrow (Because, IMO, the base kit of Arcanist is always felt more keenly on Scholar in absence and additions) Egi assaults.
We'll call them "Eos Assist" and "Selene Assist". Two GCD actions with charges, instant cast. Button economy wise these replace Fey Union and Fey Small-AoE-Heal. Don't worry, those don't go away.
Eos Assist does some heal, Selene Assist does some derps.
Using Eos Assist gives +1 to the Stratagem gauge to Selene. The opposite is true for Selene to Eos. In addition, these serve as the Faerie swap. Activating Eos Assist brings out Eos were she not already. Vice versa for Selene.
Why? From a thematic perspective, the Scholar and the Faeries are entities on the battlefield and they work in tandem to achieve their goal, opening opportunities for one another.
From a mechanical perspective, it feeds into the idea of Defense Fueling Offense and Offense Fueling Defense.
You'll also gain Eos and Selene specific Stratagem actions. These are context actions, changing based on the amount of Stratgem available to each Faerie.
This is where actions such as Fey Union, Whispering Dawn, and other, more offense oriented Fey actions will go. There are implicit cooldowns assigned to each as they are limited by the amount of Assists Eos and Selene have available through charged action cooldowns.
As an example
Eos Stratagem 1: Fey Blessing
Eos Stratagem 2: Whispering Dawn
Eos Stratagem 3: Fey Union
Selene Stratagem 1: Bane
Selene Stratagem 2: Shadowflare
Selene Stratagem 3: Fey Union But Its A Laser Beam.
But what about Seraph?
Executing Eos and Selene Stratagems contribute to the Scholar's own Keikaku.
Upon reaching the requisite amount of Scholar Stratagems, the Scholar performs the Delta Attack - Bringing both Eos and Selene out, accompanied with Seraph.
This would be a steroid phase. However one might wish to do this.
In my mind it morphs Eos and Selene assist to include all three Faerie into the mix, resulting in much more potent actions while also quicker filling of the Stratagems. Seraph would then mimic, at higher potency, executed Stratagems.
End result: Lasers. So many lasers. -
09-02-2020, 06:12 AMEloahWhile I agree with this, the simple fact that Shadowflare couldn't be used in tandem with Sacred Soil shows it's considered more of a ground target than a DoT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
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09-02-2020, 08:45 AMty_taurusSo Shadowflare did NOT do damage over time, is what you're saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
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09-02-2020, 11:16 AMNobleWinter
No, we all know it's a DoT but in terms of design considerations it seems it was more important that the visual didn't overlap with Sacred Soil.
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09-02-2020, 12:02 PMty_taurusI can understand that sentiment but the reason we were talking about semantics wasn't really weather or not Shadowflare and/or Sacred Soil belong together, but just listing how many DoT spells the Scholar has had access to over the lifespan of the game. Yes, Shadowflare did damage over time, so it makes perfect sense to include it in the conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleWinter
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09-03-2020, 07:49 AMEloahReally?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
It's right there in what I said "considered more of a ground target then a DoT." I never said it didn't do damage over time, just that system-wise its function was as a ground target. Most offensive ground targeting skills use a damage over time effect, but no one ever refers to them as DoTs in the same sense as Bio, Thunder, Aero. Most ground targets are also oGCD, Shadowflare was unique in that regard until SB, where it was turned into an oGCD. No one ever referred to Flaming Arrow, Doton, or Salted Earth as DoTs. The easiest way to to look at it is that not all ground targeting skills are DoTs and not all DoTs target the ground. -
09-03-2020, 08:13 AMty_taurusDoes Shadowflare do damage over time or doesn't it? That was what the conversation was about. Please, explain to me how going "um, actually it's considered a ground target AoE and not a DoT" impacts the conversation of "How many damage over time effects did SCH have at each stage of its design?" Because I'd love to know how this seemingly useless to the conversation fact is so important-so absolutely necessary that we would be completely inaccurate discussing ways the SCH could do damage over time otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah