Rules of Primal summoning

There are a couple things I feel I've taken for granted, and can't remember where exactly they came from, so I was wondering if anyone can remember if there's anything in game that supports this.

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.
This is the idea behind the Allagans sealing the Warring Triad alive to prevent the Meracydians from resummoning them, right?

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.
Ysayle could control Shiva, Zenos via the Resonance could control Shinryu, but as for the rest, did they effectively temper themselves?
Which box does Ryne fall into?

Do I have this correct as per canon, or have I inferred sonething not explicitly stated in game?

These are both things that I also think are the case. Although yeah, now that you mention it, I can't say I'm exactly sure as to why I think that.

Both just seem kind of obvious I guess?

The Allagan sealing would be virtually pointless if you could summon multiple copies of the same primal, so I'd say it's basically confirmed that you can't.

We saw Ysayle control the Shiva incarnation, and Zenos does mention the echo can be used to force our will on to a primal. Whether we can go as far as to say that people without the echo that self-primal definitely end up self-tempering is rather ambiguous though. The goals of Thordan and Yotsuyu aligned pretty well with their respective primal forms, so it's hard to say exactly how much they were in control or not.
You'd think that'd be something the Scions would have looked into before letting Ryne have a bash at being a primal.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

These are both things that I also think are the case. Although yeah, now that you mention it, I can't say I'm exactly sure as to why I think that.

Both just seem kind of obvious I guess?

The Allagan sealing would be virtually pointless if you could summon multiple copies of the same primal, so I'd say it's basically confirmed that you can't.

We saw Ysayle control the Shiva incarnation, and Zenos does mention the echo can be used to force our will on to a primal. Whether we can go as far as to say that people without the echo that self-primal definitely end up self-tempering is rather ambiguous though. The goals of Thordan and Yotsuyu aligned pretty well with their respective primal forms, so it's hard to say exactly how much they were in control or not.
You'd think that'd be something the Scions would have looked into before letting Ryne have a bash at being a primal.

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You would imagine if Zenos can do it why can't we as most powerful WoL/WoD with probably one fo the strongest echo due our status, just let us take over Primals and make peace with them that way, gives the Scions something to do also finally, everyoen with Echo take over one, end of those conflicts, tho then we are probably tempted ourself by Hydalin already so. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Saix027

You would imagine if Zenos can do it why can't we as most powerful WoL/WoD with probably one fo the strongest echo due our status, just let us take over Primals and make peace with them that way, gives the Scions something to do also finally, everyoen with Echo take over one, end of those conflicts, tho then we are probably tempted ourself by Hydalin already so. *shrugs*

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The WoL isn't always around to solve people's problems. And you underestimate a zealot's faith. The anata queen was so far gone that even if the WoL tried to temper it at that moment, she could still attack or try to will Lakshmi to become stronger. Seeing their god defeated does not defeat the people who summoned it or else she wouldn't have tried again. And if you meant make peace to the people through their god, well, the image is already set. They would know something was up if, say, Ravana god of war and conquest suddenly desired peace.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

You would imagine if Zenos can do it why can't we as most powerful WoL/WoD with probably one fo the strongest echo due our status, just let us take over Primals and make peace with them that way, gives the Scions something to do also finally, everyoen with Echo take over one, end of those conflicts, tho then we are probably tempted ourself by Hydalin already so. *shrugs*

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I imagine if Zenos could do it, then theoretically so can we. Problem is that we don't know how to do it, and Zenos didn't seem very interested in teaching us.

Ryne has the Echo, she gained it from Minfilia. She lost control due to the aspects of Hydaelyn coming forth so strongly that she was essentially two primals at once.

In the cases of Yotsuyu/Tsukuyomi and Thordan VII/King Thordan, they literally bonded with the primal essence itself, so when you defeated them they died. The difference for those with the Echo is that their physical body remains separate from the primal entity. At least, that's how I took it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.

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Maybe. Primal summoning is pretty vague (as is magic in general.) Magic in the XIV universe seems to pretty much all powerful and theoretically anything is possible if you want it badly enough and have enough aether. Everything else is just philosophy and technique. Rules like "can only summon one instance of a primal at a time" seem to be more of a belief than actual unbreakable rules. Someone who didn't know about that 'rule' would probably be exempt from it and could summon as many Ifrits as they wanted.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.

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Probably. Anyone without the temping immunity of the Echo (or resonance in the case of Zenos) would likely fuse with the primal completely and die when it's defeated (Thordan, Yotsuyu.) Ryne has the Echo so she came out of the summoning mostly unharmed.

Primal summoning works exactly how the arcanist/summoner summons work.


Summoning requires 2 things, Aether and a piece of info.
In the case of the carbuncles the info is the gems , in the case of an egi/demi the info is the essence of a primal.
In shadowbringers we learn that to summon something you just need aether. As long as you have aether you can summon anything, this is how the tribes summoned the primals they simply prayed and used aether in the form of crystals. The reason it is harmfull and why we are unable to do it by just thinking is cause there is not enough aether around, The aether has been split into 13 different worlds/reflections . As for the echo in 5.2 we learned that the echo isnt hydaleyns gift it is our own innate ability from when we were whole , it is activated by simply witnessing a catastrophe , the reason it got attributed to hydaleyn is cause with the echo the first thing you hear is hydaleyns call , which is something hydaleyn does all the time its just that only people with the echo can hear it.

Id like to also say that every single ascian is an arcanist. Arcanima is efforts to express the nature of aether in mathematical terms that gave rise to the exacting science that we practice today. These definitive formulas are represented by "arcane geometries".
That means an arcanist can do literally everything, arcanist is to the world the equivalent of what a programmer is to a computer.

Is summoning just advanced arcanima though?

Magic can't create anything truly alive, even the Ancients never figured out that trick, and the actual primals seem pretty alive to me. You telling me that the glee Susano felt as he battled us was fake? I'm not buying that ;)

I think the summoning that the Ascians go around teaching is more akin to necromancy than creation magic, or even arcanima. I reckon that when the Amalj'aa summon Ifrit, they keep pulling the same poor long dead soul out of the lifestream and chucking him into a new body they make for him. In theory they could just use all those crystals to create a giant glorified egi, but without the soul to make it truly alive, it'd still be more akin to a pet than a deity.

Plus, teaching a broken form of arcanima that messes with circle of life seems like exactly the sort of asshole behaviour that the Ascians would engage in.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Is summoning just advanced arcanima though?

Magic can't create anything truly alive, even the Ancients never figured out that trick, and the actual primals seem pretty alive to me. You telling me that the glee Susano felt as he battled us was fake? I'm not buying that ;)

I think the summoning that the Ascians go around teaching is more akin to necromancy than creation magic, or even arcanima. I reckon that when the Amalj'aa summon Ifrit, they keep pulling the same poor long dead soul out of the lifestream and chucking him into a new body they make for him. In theory they could just use all those crystals to create a giant glorified egi, but without the soul to make it truly alive, it'd still be more akin to a pet than a deity.

Plus, teaching a broken form of arcanima that messes with circle of life seems like exactly the sort of asshole behaviour that the Ascians would engage in.

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no summon is alive , its like the shadows under the sea , they talk they act human, the guy that was ehmets closest friend is the most noticable example of they are just ideas but they seem alive, he himself said the only reason he is more conscious is cause ehmet thought that he would be able to. another thing that further proves it is the lore of why carbuncles act how they act , the carbuncles are able to fight only cause of our iron will, tatarus carbuncle run off from her cause she herself was afraid.
There is however a piece of lore that connects the dead and the arcanima, the devs had given 4 or 5 short stories , one of those stories was about how a spirit that was afraid to pass away got into one of the constructs giving it its sentiments , ehmet was then called to exorcise it. funnily enough one other story gave the answer of how miasma works.
Oh also it has been disputed that they are raising the dead , the lore about bahamut ends with meeting his sister , she herself tells us that she was the one who helped the ascians summon bahamut and that what is summoned resembles not what bahamut was , it is simply a travestry that laid waste to everything , its something she regrets so much that she is staying in her prison willingly as punishment. Oh almost forgot shiva is also another example hraesvelgr says it himself what ysayle has summoned isnt the actual shiva.

Ok last edit. I should remind that the ones that taught how to summon primals not only to the tribes but also to the allagans were the ascians , to be more specific lahabrea taught the arr tribes ehmet taught the allagans. least we forget susanno wasnt the first that looked like he had emotions. If i remember in stormblood susanoo was summoned by complete accident, the kojin hunt for treasure as a form of worship and us bringing the other half of something inside there led to the summoning, lakshimi on the other hand was totally intentional , twice no less, shinryu cause of the massacre and the eyes of nidhogg , and i dont remember tsukuyomi. The 4 lords werent primals.

I still remember the devs talking about the mechanics of primal summoning and that it involves drawing a soul from the lifestream. And there is support for that idea. With self-summoning, the summoner itself would be the soul of the primal, with external summoning, a soul gets called from the lifestream and then trapped in an aetherial construct. The Ancients discovered this idea in the Tales of the Shadows story.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

I still remember the devs talking about the mechanics of primal summoning and that it involves drawing a soul from the lifestream. And there is support for that idea. With self-summoning, the summoner itself would be the soul of the primal, with external summoning, a soul gets called from the lifestream and then trapped in an aetherial construct. The Ancients discovered this idea in the Tales of the Shadows story.

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"To be precise, it is not a living being, but magick woven in the likeness of a bird. One possessed of puissant healing powers. And as befits a masterwork of the Words of Lahabrea, it is a thing of beauty."

"I don’t doubt it. So what, then, is the problem?"

"As I said, it is not a living being. The concept proposed was a magick in avian guise. With this in mind..."

Hythlodaeus stretched out a hand to the enormous gate that stood before them. Soundlessly, the towering doors swung open...and Hades found himself wincing at the ear-rending cry that emanated from within. Furrowing his brow, he stepped across the threshold to be greeted with the sight of a magnificent bird, its plumes fairly afire, circling high in the vaulted hall. Having marked the creature's undeniable beauty, it took him but another moment to identify the problem─an unmistakable light shining in its heart. His breath caught in his throat.

"A soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth─anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it─a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."


https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/
the link in case others want to see the rest the story is called through his eyes

Dont forget shiva was a special case as he soul never returned to the life stream, she still is with her lover...

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Dont forget shiva was a special case as he soul never returned to the life stream, she still is with her lover...

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i actually dont remember that but i will go check.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

i actually dont remember that but i will go check.

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I play on german so i cant tell you the exact words, but Hraesvlgr said smt about "if not for her souls soothing embrace, i would have went to war as well" and quite literally "you cant summon her as her soul still is with me..."

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.
This is the idea behind the Allagans sealing the Warring Triad alive to prevent the Meracydians from resummoning them, right?

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You can't summon the same primal twice because primals are effectively ideas given physical form and function by their summoners. When you defeat a primal, it doesn't "die" as we understand it - it returns to the aetherial sea, where it waits to be called again. Ifrit, for instance; people still remember him, how he looked and acted, so as long as people remember "Ifrit" as a quadrupedal fire-breathing demon lizard, that's what you'll get when you summon him. Thus, the only way to truly kill a primal is to destroy the conceptual basis of their existence; that is, wipe out the idea that gives them form and function. (Thus the jokes about the PC having brain damage when their Eden Primals have vastly different appearances and abilities compared to the originals.)

The Allagans sealing the Warring Triad (and Bahamut) instead of killing them was a pragmatic move and not designed to stop them from being resummoned. They were interred with some of their followers in suspended animation specifically so they'd stay around as batteries for Azys Lla and Dalamud, respectively.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.
Ysayle could control Shiva, Zenos via the Resonance could control Shinryu, but as for the rest, did they effectively temper themselves?
Which box does Ryne fall into?

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The Echo is a necessity for controlling primals. The only time a non-Echo user incarnate summoned was Thordan and Yotsuyu (as King Thordan and Tsukuyomi, respectively), and both times it costed them their lives. The thing to remember, though, is that these were all summoned individually, instead of as a group effort; and they are essentially their summoners' idea of what they'd be like as that figure. (Shinryu, being extant before Zenos reverse incarnate summoned himself into it, is exempt from this.) King Thordan isn't what the real King Thordan was like, but rather Archbishop Thordan VIIth's idea of what he'd be like.

The situation with Ryne is a bit complicated. As one of Minfilia's hosts as the Oracle of Light she does have the Echo... but that only prevents her from being tempered. It doesn't provide her with the ego necessary to overcome its will, leading to her personality being subsumed by the Shiva she summons into herself. (Why she's able to flip between Shiva Forme and Hydaelyn Forme is another mess.)

I guess as far as summoning two versions of the same primal at once, we look to the SMN job and its Egis. The Egis look and behave like their bigger primal counterparts, so I think it's safe to say that you could summon a weaker version of a primal that you yourself control via the method SMN employs. It will just be weaker, since it depends upon your aether I guess?

And the whole Demi-Primal thing is kind of neat. It makes me think about the fact that the Ixali elder at the top of Xelphatol straight up summons Garuda temporarily for big AOEs, and also that the Ananta brood mother summoned Lakshmi for a moment upon seeing her daughter killed by Fordola's Skulls.

I guess I would also say that you could summon a primal that is supposed to be a specific primal, but if your idea/belief about it differs, then it would be similar in name and appearance, but actually just be a different primal entirely.

And I guess another thing to bring up, to fall in line with the arcanima line of thought is that the extreme modes of the Warring Triad are computer simulated reality that make theoretical maximum strength versions of the triad that are real aether/really capable of killing, as noted by the warning each tomestone gives you when you unlock those fights. Omega does a similar thing with his own animated aether constructs in that raid series. These constructs hav existed in tandem with their real counterparts, as the Warring Triad one demonstrates, they used it as an elite program.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

I play on german so i cant tell you the exact words, but Hraesvlgr said smt about "if not for her souls soothing embrace, i would have went to war as well" and quite literally "you cant summon her as her soul still is with me..."

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHzq_qg4M_8

found it on youtube , shivas soul isnt with him. Ill copy the words of the english translation.
H: Do not speak her name , mortal!
Y: But speak it i must! I have summoned shivas soul from the beyond, and offered myself as her vessel! She has made her heart known to me!
H: Foolish girl. Thinkest thou my beloveds spirit hath descended from the heavens!?
H: That the secrets of her heart are thine to know!?
Y: I have surrendered mine to her! Do you not see, my love? I am Shiva reborn!
H: Gullible fool... The light but illuminated the past for thee, it did not grant thee omniscience
H: The spirit thou hast summon belongeth not to Shiva-'tis but a shade conjured by thine own fancy
H: In an age long past, mine own kin were guilty of like folly, beguiled by the dark ones' lies, they attempted to resurrect a king among wyrms-yet the divinity they called forth merely borrowed the semblance of my brood-brother.
H: Such gods are not summoned, but created. Phantoms spun from the threads of misplaced faith.
Y: Then the spirit that answered me.....-
H: .....was but thy dream of Shiva. Thy soul has been corrupted by a deity of thine own making, child.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.
Ysayle could control Shiva, Zenos via the Resonance could control Shinryu, but as for the rest, did they effectively temper themselves?
Which box does Ryne fall into?

Do I have this correct as per canon, or have I inferred sonething not explicitly stated in game?

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Yotsuyu starts the Tsukuyomi fight in control. However, she loses it after the add phase, when the projection of Gosetsu protects her. It breaks her focus enough that the primal takes over ("From mortal husk, I rise anew!").

Thordan's summon wasn't intended to be channeling another entity; he was literally summoning himself as a god-king. It's kinda hard to say if he tempered himself to himself, and it's probably academic anyway.

Ryne has the Blessing of Light from Minfilia, so she's protected from tempering. She just wasn't mentally strong enough to control Shiva. Her perception being colored by the WoL's stories of Ysayle and Hraesvelgr probably didn't help.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Thordan's summon wasn't intended to be channeling another entity; he was literally summoning himself as a god-king. It's kinda hard to say if he tempered himself to himself, and it's probably academic anyway.

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Uh, no it was definitely the King Thordan of legend and his knights twelve that the Archbishop summoned.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Uh, no it was definitely the King Thordan of legend and his knights twelve that the Archbishop summoned.

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Summoning a primal requires an honest belief in the being one is trying to summon. The Archbishop knew the truth about the original King Thordan. He knew that the King abandoned his crown after the murder of Ratatoskr and the theft of Nidhogg's eyes. He can't have intended to summon the original, because he knew that the popular image of King Thordan was a lie.

The Knights are a weird case, because we see three of them transform into their primal forms in the Vault (and a fourth afterwards, when he kills Haurchefant), quite a while before the fight in Azys Lla. Whatever they were doing, either it wasn't tied to Thordan to begin with and he just empowered them, or they had summoned Thordan earlier and gained their own transformations, but wanted the power in Azys Lla to make Thordan even stronger. If the latter is the case, then it's entirely possible that Archbishop Thordan was tempered before we ever even met him. But, see above.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Summoning a primal requires an honest belief in the being one is trying to summon. The Archbishop knew the truth about the original King Thordan. He knew that the King abandoned his crown after the murder of Ratatoskr and the theft of Nidhogg's eyes. He can't have intended to summon the original, because he knew that the popular image of King Thordan was a lie.

The Knights are a weird case, because we see three of them transform into their primal forms in the Vault (and a fourth afterwards, when he kills Haurchefant), quite a while before the fight in Azys Lla. Whatever they were doing, either it wasn't tied to Thordan to begin with and he just empowered them, or they had summoned Thordan earlier and gained their own transformations, but wanted the power in Azys Lla to make Thordan even stronger. If the latter is the case, then it's entirely possible that Archbishop Thordan was tempered before we ever even met him. But, see above.

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he indeed knew that, after all he was the one keeping the false truth, what he summoned is the thordan he had fabricated for the people, he used the eye of nidhogg for aether.

Could it be that Thordan and KotR had been gradually tempered for years given use of and proximity to the Eye, combined with their own faith in the background?

Maybe Estinien would have been the same save for Dragoon training coming before any misplaced faith.

Estinien was influenced by the Eye he carries in the 30-50 dragoon quests, but he's able to control it after the player beats some sense into him. He only loses control later as a result of the combination of both Eyes, still being covered in Nidhogg's blood (seriously, did nobody ever just hose him down?), and letting his guard down; even then, we manage to save him again later after the Final Steps of Faith. Still, you can't beat tempering out of someone, so it seems draconic influence works by different rules.

Might explain why the Knights brought Haldrath's corpse with the second Eye still embedded in it to Azys Lla rather than just taking the Eye itself, though. Better safe than sorry.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Summoning a primal requires an honest belief in the being one is trying to summon. The Archbishop knew the truth about the original King Thordan. He knew that the King abandoned his crown after the murder of Ratatoskr and the theft of Nidhogg's eyes. He can't have intended to summon the original, because he knew that the popular image of King Thordan was a lie.

The Knights are a weird case, because we see three of them transform into their primal forms in the Vault (and a fourth afterwards, when he kills Haurchefant), quite a while before the fight in Azys Lla. Whatever they were doing, either it wasn't tied to Thordan to begin with and he just empowered them, or they had summoned Thordan earlier and gained their own transformations, but wanted the power in Azys Lla to make Thordan even stronger. If the latter is the case, then it's entirely possible that Archbishop Thordan was tempered before we ever even met him. But, see above.

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We can see from Satasha (Hard) that primals can grant their tempered subjects new powers and transformations, so I just assume that's the case with the Knights of the Round.

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Originally Posted by Dragonexx

We can see from Satasha (Hard) that primals can grant their tempered subjects new powers and transformations, so I just assume that's the case with the Knights of the Round.

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That seems to be just what happens to living beings when overaspected with various forms of aether. What happened to Captain Madison and crew was the water aether equivalent of being turned into a Sineater.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That seems to be just what happens to living beings when overaspected with various forms of aether. What happened to Captain Madison and crew was the water aether equivalent of being turned into a Sineater.

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Well, I don't see any reason why those processes have to be mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.
This is the idea behind the Allagans sealing the Warring Triad alive to prevent the Meracydians from resummoning them, right?

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If you mean you can't have summon a Primal while the same Primal is already active, then yeah, the story seems to indicate that's the case. I don't think there's been any in-game support to the idea that trying to resummon a Primal that's currently already summoned will increase its power, but it seems reasonable; more prayer and faith equals more power.

Imprisoning the Triad was one goal, yes, but I'm pretty sure the Allagans also wanted to tap their power, much as they did on a larger scale with Bahamut later.

I initially mistook "You can't summon the same primal twice." as meaning consecutively. That is, summon Ifrit, Ifrit is killed, you can never summon him again. That's obviously not true, as the original Hard Mode and Extreme Mode trials were exactly that: the same primal summoned again and again, each time with more resources (first, additional crystals, then additional crystals and beastman sacrifices).

In regards to the "brain damaged WoL" theory, the devs DID say that a soul of sorts is called into the Primal from the aether when it is summoned, and this might have an affect on shaping the Primal's appearance. Assuming that the Lifestream of the First is a sundered copy of that of the Source, it is very unlikely that the same Primal souls would be available. Of course, now that we've done our thing, shiny new Primal souls may now be inhabiting the First's Lifestream, so future summonings of those Primals on the First could well look identical to the ones we summoned, even if summoned by someone who had never seen the original. (Such a thing is unlikely, of course, unless Ryne decides to spread the word of exactly how we restored the Emptiness to life.)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If you mean you can't have summon a Primal while the same Primal is already active, then yeah, the story seems to indicate that's the case. I don't think there's been any in-game support to the idea that trying to resummon a Primal that's currently already summoned will increase its power, but it seems reasonable; more prayer and faith equals more power.

Imprisoning the Triad was one goal, yes, but I'm pretty sure the Allagans also wanted to tap their power, much as they did on a larger scale with Bahamut later.

I initially mistook "You can't summon the same primal twice." as meaning consecutively. That is, summon Ifrit, Ifrit is killed, you can never summon him again. That's obviously not true, as the original Hard Mode and Extreme Mode trials were exactly that: the same primal summoned again and again, each time with more resources (first, additional crystals, then additional crystals and beastman sacrifices).

In regards to the "brain damaged WoL" theory, the devs DID say that a soul of sorts is called into the Primal from the aether when it is summoned, and this might have an affect on shaping the Primal's appearance. Assuming that the Lifestream of the First is a sundered copy of that of the Source, it is very unlikely that the same Primal souls would be available. Of course, now that we've done our thing, shiny new Primal souls may now be inhabiting the First's Lifestream, so future summonings of those Primals on the First could well look identical to the ones we summoned, even if summoned by someone who had never seen the original. (Such a thing is unlikely, of course, unless Ryne decides to spread the word of exactly how we restored the Emptiness to life.)

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Thats not how it works. Even the ancients with their massive amounts of mana could not summon a soul, its in fact the one and only thing arcanima cant do. Im pretty sure you misread the story youre mentioning so i will link it again for you and also copy the thing i assume you remember.


i just realised i had already posted this pls check the prior page in order to see the link and text :p

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If you mean you can't have summon a Primal while the same Primal is already active, then yeah, the story seems to indicate that's the case. I don't think there's been any in-game support to the idea that trying to resummon a Primal that's currently already summoned will increase its power, but it seems reasonable; more prayer and faith equals more power.

Imprisoning the Triad was one goal, yes, but I'm pretty sure the Allagans also wanted to tap their power, much as they did on a larger scale with Bahamut later.

I initially mistook "You can't summon the same primal twice." as meaning consecutively. That is, summon Ifrit, Ifrit is killed, you can never summon him again. That's obviously not true, as the original Hard Mode and Extreme Mode trials were exactly that: the same primal summoned again and again, each time with more resources (first, additional crystals, then additional crystals and beastman sacrifices).

In regards to the "brain damaged WoL" theory, the devs DID say that a soul of sorts is called into the Primal from the aether when it is summoned, and this might have an affect on shaping the Primal's appearance. Assuming that the Lifestream of the First is a sundered copy of that of the Source, it is very unlikely that the same Primal souls would be available. Of course, now that we've done our thing, shiny new Primal souls may now be inhabiting the First's Lifestream, so future summonings of those Primals on the First could well look identical to the ones we summoned, even if summoned by someone who had never seen the original. (Such a thing is unlikely, of course, unless Ryne decides to spread the word of exactly how we restored the Emptiness to life.)

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in order to not make the last post way to big ill answer the double summoning here.

We do have an example of double summoning but it isnt something that goes through your mind at first, the egis.
5.3 confirmed that creation magic is indeed the progenitor of what we now know as summoning. So the theory of arcanima is creation magic is confirmed.
The egis not only have they been summoned at the same time as a primal, during the ex and hard versions who back in arr werent a story they were events that actually happened, but also they have been summoned by others during the story about the 3 people that were taught summoning.

whether you can summon a primal twice simultaneously seems like a bit of an epistemological question. the same person can't do it obviously, and maybe someone from the same society or with the same beliefs (pertaining to the primal) can't. but what if you had a society of amal'jaa that say, branched off 100 years ago and moved to meracydia? or longer? would their conception of ifrit be unique enough to have two different but similar "Ifrits" running around? i don't think there's a sort of 'Ifrit Aether' floating around in the lifestream- it's just sort of made up when it's summoned, without individual unique memories or a personality other than what the believers imprint on it.

there's probably an interesting story about people imprisoning a primal, then the next untempered generation comes around and say's it's fake, the allagans made it, and summoning it so the same one exists twice. then they fight i guess.