Extreme trials and the DF

Because EX trials are high-end content, no matter how old, it would then be reasonable to put all of the EX trials in the high-end DF (and then there should be a Lv50/60/70 EX trial roulette in the high-end DF) rather than being lumped together with their MSQ versions in the DF. Now I believe there should have reward buffs to older trials, other than guaranteed drops of minions or mounts (if they aren't already guaranteed to drop). That, even though it may not result in more use of the DF for that content, at least it wouldn't mislead people.

Any reason why put EX trials in the regular trial DF (and, correspondingly, roulette)?

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Originally Posted by Townowi

Any reason why put EX trials in the regular trial DF (and, correspondingly, roulette)?

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Because they aren't new.
Cinder Drift and Memoria Misera are new, they are in high end. When they are replaced they will no longer be there.

That being said, where it is in the queuing system means very little for the majority of the NA/EU playerbase, they'll use Party Finder to match with people, they don't draw randoms from Duty Finder.

I think they should get their own roulette, tbh. Would a ton of people use it? Probably not, at least not without the right incentive. But they created New Game+ for a relatively small section of the community so they could realistically do the same with this type of roulette.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think they should get their own roulette, tbh. Would a ton of people use it? Probably not, at least not without the right incentive. But they created New Game+ for a relatively small section of the community so they could realistically do the same with this type of roulette.

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I could definitley be wrong, but didn't they use to have it separated out buck during 2.0-2.5? I thought they had a bigger variety of roulette like regular dungeons, HM dungeons roulette etc.... I never screened shooted the roulette finder but I thought they had something like that.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

I could definitley be wrong, but didn't they use to have it separated out buck during 2.0-2.5? I thought they had a bigger variety of roulette like regular dungeons, HM dungeons roulette etc.... I never screened shooted the roulette finder but I thought they had something like that.

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You mean this?

https://imgur.com/a/mESfypv

https://i.imgur.com/BbWqqgW.png

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

I could definitley be wrong, but didn't they use to have it separated out buck during 2.0-2.5? I thought they had a bigger variety of roulette like regular dungeons, HM dungeons roulette etc.... I never screened shooted the roulette finder but I thought they had something like that.

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The only roulette they've ever put Extreme trials into has been the Mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

The only roulette they've ever put Extreme trials into has been the Mentor roulette.

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Which, in my own opinion, has always been weird. The mentor roulette should only consist of duties already present in other roulettes (again, in my own opinion), but that's a different can of worms.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Which, in my own opinion, has always been weird. The mentor roulette should only consist of duties already present in other roulettes (again, in my own opinion), but that's a different can of worms.

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I fully agree, but yeah, that's another thing entirely.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Which, in my own opinion, has always been weird. The mentor roulette should only consist of duties already present in other roulettes (again, in my own opinion), but that's a different can of worms.

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The Mentor roulette was pretty much introduced to fill out EX queues with players who knew how to do the fights with filling any in progress or stalled duties being a secondary benefit.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think they should get their own roulette, tbh. Would a ton of people use it? Probably not, at least not without the right incentive. But they created New Game+ for a relatively small section of the community so they could realistically do the same with this type of roulette.

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An EX Roulette wouldn't be relatively small though. It would border on non-existent. Look at how many Mentors bail the moment they get a synced Primal. There just isn't a reward large enough that would completely imbalance the system. When you can cap current tomes in two hours through hunts or send a little longer in easy dungeons, why would anyone touch an EX variant? Maybe you put a mount there but then people would just form premades; defeating the entire purpose.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The Mentor roulette was pretty much introduced to fill out EX queues with players who knew how to do the fights with filling any in progress or stalled duties being a secondary benefit.

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To fill out queues in general. I don't think they ever intended to fill out just EX queues.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

An EX Roulette wouldn't be relatively small though. It would border on non-existent. Look at how many Mentors bail the moment they get a synced Primal. There just isn't a reward large enough that would completely imbalance the system. When you can cap current tomes in two hours through hunts or send a little longer in easy dungeons, why would anyone touch an EX variant? Maybe you put a mount there but then people would just form premades; defeating the entire purpose.

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Chances are I wouldn't touch it either, to be honest. But I do feel that the option should be there. I don't see how premades would defeat the purpose of a roulette though. They would still have to deal with a random trial. That's how it is supposed to work. A random trial doesn't necessarily mean it has to be random people. By that logic that means they should rework just about every roulette available to us, aside from what works solely as a solo queue anyway. And that would be unnecessary, in my opinion, because the system is already working as intended, premades or not.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To fill out queues in general. I don't think they ever intended to fill out just EX queues.

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When Mentor Roulette was introduced the ARR EX trials were pretty much the only non-raids df not popping regularly or being successfully completed. The EX trials were the only thing that "required" a Mentor who had already completed the content everything else was queuable normally. They were also the big road block that limited (as still limits) access to the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Chances are I wouldn't touch it either, to be honest. But I do feel that the option should be there. I don't see how premades would defeat the purpose of a roulette though. They would still have to deal with a random trial. That's how it is supposed to work. A random trial doesn't necessarily mean it has to be random people. By that logic that means they should rework just about every roulette available to us, aside from what works solely as a solo queue anyway. And that would be unnecessary, in my opinion, because the system is already working as intended, premades or not.

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Way too many bosses and mechanics in order to expect people to remember everything. Also, unless you are a quick learner, an average player will need a few lock-out timers before clearing an extreme fight.

I really have a hard time imagining this kind of roulette working, particularly with all the 24m ILvL cheesing happening already.

Id be all in for that roulett, you dont have to run it if you dont like... But i definitly set it so you must have cleared once , or at least have the highest needed Ilvl. Id love more stuff like the mentor roulett, idk why they wont give us 50/60/70 seperate...

What incentive would this roulette offer to get players to actually use it? Tomes and gil isn't going to do it. Path of least resistance, remember? You can't toss anything in here players already have easier access to. Even increasing these rewards, e.g. offering 500 of the current tomes and 25k gil isn't going to matter if the players can't even clear the fight. From my own experience, syncing down to the primal's level, or running the current raid tier in PF has a clear rate of well under 50%, and not many players are going to want to prog outdated EX content.

EX trials already offer substantial rewards to players willing to run and clear these fights. Because these rewards are random, and have an abysmal drop rate, players are going to want to run these things unsynced if they are to group with total randoms.

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Now, I should also mention that hate having to say everything I just stated. Every last word. Oft I echo the status quo, but it doesn't mean I agree with it. For players like me, the challenge of clearing these fights IS the incentive. If I could group up with seven other players willing to learn, play nice, and care about performing well I couldn't care less about the rewards.

The way it would work in my own funland is the reward for clearing the roulette is simply x10 of the totem the fight drops. There would be a bonus to all players of x1 totems and a slightly increased drop rate on the mount if any player has yet to clear the fight. This would be a weekly reward system that resets along with the other weeklies. For those unfortunate to get a fight they already have the mount for, a consolation bonus of a voucher that they can exchange for a reward of their choosing will be given upon completion of the roulette. Possible items up for exchange would be MGP and Aetheryte tickets, rare dyes, and even some exclusive rewards.

The idea of the roulette is to get players in those damn fights. I envision a world where the devs are having to think about how to make content more challenging, not less; because the playerbase in general are having increased clear rates of the harder content. One can dream.

I'd like to see it, but I'm also a sadist, so take my input with a grain of salt and rub it in your eyes.

Also a Binding Coils roulette, but see above.

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Originally Posted by Townowi

Any reason why put EX trials in the regular trial DF (and, correspondingly, roulette)?

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Aren't they only available in mentor roulette? And if I recall correctly, last time I had to clear EX trials to unlock mentor roulette in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

That being said, where it is in the queuing system means very little for the majority of the NA/EU playerbase, they'll use Party Finder to match with people, they don't draw randoms from Duty Finder.

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Well, I always get them in Mentor Roulette. It's kind of annoying wiping like 90 minutes to Sophia EX & Co.

But actually its sad, some times it would be so sweet to just que for it and go...., lock it behind a "have 15-30 kills" or smt...

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Originally Posted by Ririta

You mean this?

https://imgur.com/a/mESfypv

https://i.imgur.com/BbWqqgW.png

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I would like this.

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

Well, I always get them in Mentor Roulette. It's kind of annoying wiping like 90 minutes to Sophia EX & Co.

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When I get them in Mentor roulette I do stay to help but I also take the time to educate about party finder. Teaching someone to use PF is one of the greatest gifts you can do give to a new player, it's a very useful tool.

As much as I would like a separate Lv50/60/70 EX trials roulette in the high-end DF, I would also like a separate Lv50/60/70 trials roulette for the regular DF that will not have any EX trial in it, with ShB trials in its own roulette, as is the case for dungeons, and maybe normal raids.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I would like this.

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I'm confused. That's just what is now the 80 roulette plus Expert put together.

Edit to add; If they could add a new Ex trial roulette easily enough, I don't see why they couldn't. If it takes too much development time, it's likely not worth it.

I would queue up synced EX trial roulette every day, even knowing it'll only ever be me and one random other person for 3 hours in queue before we both give up.

;_;

I often get lv 50 and 60 ex trials in mentor roulet and even with a lot of new people I had only one or two instances where we did not beat them befor the end of the timer. Most of the time it gets beaten at the 3rd or 4th pull.

That being said it takes a lot more effort to do so then normal raids, dungeons etc (with I think is the fun part of mentor roulet but I get why it can be frustrating for other people)

My conclusion is that the gear creep, even for new player, is pretty high (+ the echo buff of course) so I would not put it in the expert tap. But I might be wrong about that, I have no numbers to back up that clame.

I do personally like the idea of a roulet for only ex trials but I am not sure how popular this would be in the average player base.

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Originally Posted by Helero

I often get lv 50 and 60 ex trials in mentor roulet and even with a lot of new people I had only one or two instances where we did not beat them befor the end of the timer. Most of the time it gets beaten at the 3rd or 4th pull.

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Reading this, it makes me wish that players in NA would be more willing to do current EX trials without using party finder. Sure, it can fail, but you can fail with a PF group as well, and being able to clear with complete random strangers on random jobs on the third or fourth pull seems awesome.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Reading this, it makes me wish that players in NA would be more willing to do current EX trials without using party finder. Sure, it can fail, but you can fail with a PF group as well, and being able to clear with complete random strangers on random jobs on the third or fourth pull seems awesome.

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While the JP servers are more open to queuing DF, they also have less of a "you don't pay my sub, I'll play terribly if I want" attitude. It's more expected you'll be a team player, at least try your best and they'll just quietly replace someone who refuses to do so. This makes DF function better.

NA/EU has the issue where laziness and lack of teamwork is almost encouraged. Thus DF often cannot function at high level. If one or more players refuse to put effort in, the duty becomes mathematically impossible. That has resulted in a culture where the players who want to work as a team will try and separate themselves off from the ones who don't care.

I feel an EX trial roulette would open a can of worms where the good players will avoid it and it'll be filled with the players who just want to hop in for the ride and see what happens. Even mentor roulette has a mentor or two in the group, this probably wouldn't have even that. They'd have a very high fail rate and that type of player would immediately go to the forums to complain about how difficult and ridiculous it is. Being paying customers, the devs might even listen to them and nerf EX further to the point that it becomes a glorified Normal mode. I think EX is fine in its current form and the Unreal Trials seem to be their first attempt at bringing the old ones back to life.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

While the JP servers are more open to queuing DF, they also have less of a "you don't pay my sub, I'll play terribly if I want" attitude. It's more expected you'll be a team player, at least try your best and they'll just quietly replace someone who refuses to do so. This makes DF function better.

NA/EU has the issue where laziness and lack of teamwork is almost encouraged. Thus DF often cannot function at high level. If one or more players refuse to put effort in, the duty becomes mathematically impossible. That has resulted in a culture where the players who want to work as a team will try and separate themselves off from the ones who don't care.

I feel an EX trial roulette would open a can of worms where the good players will avoid it and it'll be filled with the players who just want to hop in for the ride and see what happens. Even mentor roulette has a mentor or two in the group, this probably wouldn't have even that. They'd have a very high fail rate and that type of player would immediately go to the forums to complain about how difficult and ridiculous it is. Being paying customers, the devs might even listen to them and nerf EX further to the point that it becomes a glorified Normal mode. I think EX is fine in its current form and the Unreal Trials seem to be their first attempt at bringing the old ones back to life.

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Yeah, I get that. Just wishful thinking.

An EX roulette would be awful. Personally I would never queue for it, and I the majority of people I know wouldn't either. Because EX trials take effort and teamwork to complete, and the roulette queue would be composed of precisely the opposite of people with that mindset.

Folks have talked about Extreme and Savage Roulettes for a long time now - and they simply would not be viable. Some of the early fights can be won in a session (my experience with Mentor Roulette shows this is true), but the difficulty of the fights advances with each expansion to the point where it's virtually hopeless to secure a win in the 60 minute limit. And when you sign up again, its with a whole new batch of newbies that have to be trained up from scratch!

I can see reasons both to leave these fights in Duty Finder, and also to move them to Raid Finder, but either way, someone signing up in Duty Finder should be given the warning that the content is advanced difficulty, and that Party Finder is a better tool for finding menbers for the fight. This applies both if you just want a quick, unsynced clear, or wish to find folks willing to do it synced for the challenge.

Putting Extreme fights in Mentor Roulette was a mistake, at least for the current requirements it takes to become a Mentor. While clearing the fights are necessary, clearing them SYNCED is not. Probably the majority of folks that qualify as Mentors do not know how to do the fights synced, so it makes little sense to plunk them in with a bunch of newbies and expect them to show them how to do it.

A lot of newbies wind up in Mentor Roulette staffed Extreme fights not because they WANT to do it the hard way, but simply because they do not know about Party Finder, as Canadane mentioned above. They don't mesh well with folks that are actually looking to do the fight the hard way, or with Mentors that don't know the fight at all.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Now, I should also mention that hate having to say everything I just stated. Every last word. Oft I echo the status quo, but it doesn't mean I agree with it. For players like me, the challenge of clearing these fights IS the incentive. If I could group up with seven other players willing to learn, play nice, and care about performing well I couldn't care less about the rewards.

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I hear you, and I sympethize. Way back, I was late to get on the Binding Coil train, and I formed a group in Party Finder for Coil 2 with the intent of NOT using the cheap Enrage strat - to actually learn the fight with passing of Allegan Rot and all that. It eventually filled - and half the party hadn't bothered to read the party finder text and refused to get on board with the plan. We eventually did Enrage anyway.

People choose the quickest and easiest path, in general There are outliers - but for most, there's too many things out there to do, to spend unnecessary time on any of them.

That said, you are not alone. There ARE challenge-seekers out there. Use Party Finder to find them. Friend them. Make a linkshell. You won't get a full party of eight quickly, but it will happen in due time. Maybe if you're really lucky, they'll even go for the masochist's paradise that is the Minimum Item Level setting! :3

Wrong topic. Sorry.