Calamities explained

So I have read various Reddit and forum posts on the shattering, the calamities and the rejoining and I think I have a basic understanding of the general motive that the Ascians have in relation bringing about the rejoining of all the shards to the source to re-summon Zodiark in order to for him to return the world to what it was before the sundering.

I know that each calamity was marked with a certain element, such as fire or earth, which manifested itself in the type of calamity that occurred on the source. However, I have not seen much information about what exactly happens on the shards themselves when a calamity occurs on the source.

I know they are essentially absorbed by the source, but what exactly was done on the shard's to bring about the various umbral calamities?

Does a natural disaster like a flood occur on the shard wiping out all life for like a water based calamity to occur on the Source?

Or is there a perfect balance of light and darkness that occurs on the shards for a rejoining to occur? and if that is so, how are the various umbral calamities determined if the same balancing occurred on all previous seven shards that been rejoined to the source thus far?

As explained by the Exarch:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystal Exarch G'raha

To begin at the beginning, then... In the ancient past, a single star was divided into fourteen worlds. [...] Though physically separate, they retain a connection to each other, and the Source especially. Now, let us assume that a given element in one of the shards attains abnormal ascendancy. Just as water will flow from the highest point to the lowest, the excess energy will begin trickling into the Source... And such an influx of aether will of course exert a palpable influence. If the element in question were fire, then drought and wild fires might ensue. If it were ice, one might expect the weather to turn bitterly cold. As aether continues to pour in, such phenomena will become more and more extreme, until eventually, a single untimely event triggers a disaster which "cracks" the barrier dividing the two worlds. What was once a trickle now becomes a deluge, sweeping the shard along to be rejoined with the Source. At the same time, the element which held sway in the shard is unleashed in full, its energies amplifying the original disaster to truly catastrophic proportions. An earthquake thus magnified might strike with enough force to shatter continents; a tidal wave might swell to a size capable of drowning entire nations. These devastating events are what we refer to as "Umbral Calamities."

---

What happens I believe is that a shard is deliberately unbalanced with it's aspect. As explained by the Exarch, it seems to be a slow process as the shard is drained into the Source until a great increase brings about a calamity.

As for what was suppose to happen on the First:
"Their battles brought them knowledge of a hidden mastermind behind the realm's woes, named the Shadowkeeper. The Warriors of Light were accompanied by an elf swordswoman named Cylva who unbeknownst to them, had her own dark agenda. She eventually revealed herself as the Shadowkeeper, who by instructions of the Ascians Mithron and Loghrif, tempered Ardbert and his companions into becoming the Warriors of Light and obtaining their crystals so that they could push the First to the brink of destruction and bring about the Umbral Calamity by killing her."

So perhaps on a fire heavy world, the Ascians might have someone slayed related to Leviathan or someone trying to maintain the water aether on that shard.

Ok thanks for this.

But what elemental unbalance would have occurred in the first if the Warriors of Light had indeed killed Cylva (The Shadowkeeper)? Would it have been a Shadow Calamity on the source then?

Is it that the timeline where the black plague was unleashed on the Source the result of Cylva actually dying? and the current timeline is one where she lived, hence avoiding the calamity from occurring on the source?

Sorry I still find this all very confusing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SKgaming

Ok thanks for this.

But what elemental unbalance would have occurred in the first if the Warriors of Light had indeed killed Cylva (The Shadowkeeper)? Would it have been a Shadow Calamity on the source then?

Is it that the timeline where the black plague was unleashed on the Source the result of Cylva actually dying? and the current timeline is one where she lived, hence avoiding the calamity from occurring on the source?

Sorry I still find this all very confusing.

---

It's the other way around, the First was very light heavy. Killing the shadowkeeper should have resulted in too much light, which should have been the event for a light-based calamity in the Source. Eventually the First would have been consumed by the Light due to the machinations of Eulmore over the course of decades.

"Urianger finds that the Source's understanding of active aether as "astral" and static aether as "umbral" is the reverse of what the people of the First believe. As the color white is produced by the absence of other colors, the First came to call static aether "light," while the color black is produced by the absorption of all colors, so they call the active aether 'darkness'

With this new information, Urianger deduces that since the Black Rose operates by bringing its victims' aether to a standstill, it must have a strong affinity with static or "light" aether. Having uncovered the process of Umbral Calamity, Urianger explains that as the First reaches true stasis, the Flood of Light would begin leaking light aether to the Source. He concludes that in the future, the Empire's use of the Black Rose coincided with the First being completely consumed by the light and Rejoining with the Source. This unleashed a massive amount of light aether on the Source, resulting in Black Rose's unexpected potency and causing the Eighth Umbral Calamity." - https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...al_Fantasy_XIV)

Part of the confusion here is that Light can't cause a Calamity directly because Light is not an element. Calamities are elemental. The presence of imbalanced Light, however, skews the elements towards an unnatural umbral charge (astral and umbral are on the elemental energy spectrum). The Seventh Calamity was all elements skewed astrally. The eight would have been the opposite.

One of the weirder aspects of the cosmology is that apparently the Ascians need to unbalance a shard in a specific manner, while also causing the same (type of) unbalance on the Source, or at least a close attempt thereof, in order to create a Calamity.

The Source unbalance doesn't have to be huge or dramatic, since it will feed on the effects from the unbalanced shard anyway, but it does seem like it has to actually exist, and be close enough to the same aether-state as the unbalanced shard.

Which means the Ascians have some means of quite impressive project management, to line these up well enough to cause seven Calamities and almost an eighth.

I can just about imagine Elidibus trying hard to get everyone on the same page with SMART and Gantt charts, and the ominous meetings they have are basically their versions of daily scrums, and there's a Kanban board languishing somewhere on the moon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YianKutku

Which means the Ascians have some means of quite impressive project management, to line these up well enough to cause seven Calamities and almost an eighth.

I can just about imagine Elidibus trying hard to get everyone on the same page with SMART and Gantt charts, and the ominous meetings they have are basically their versions of daily scrums, and there's a Kanban board languishing somewhere on the moon.

---

Having done a small amount of project management myself, this is the most unbelievable part of the universe of XIV. That a project could be so well organized that the only failures were brought about by incomplete information on the first attempt, and direct intervention on the most recent, and the other 7 all happened perfectly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowVix

Having done a small amount of project management myself, this is the most unbelievable part of the universe of XIV. That a project could be so well organized that the only failures were brought about by incomplete information on the first attempt, and direct intervention on the most recent, and the other 7 all happened perfectly.

---

It kinda reminds me ofthe whole "Batman prep time" meme TBH,and the Ascians had a a LOT of prep time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowVix

Having done a small amount of project management myself, this is the most unbelievable part of the universe of XIV. That a project could be so well organized that the only failures were brought about by incomplete information on the first attempt, and direct intervention on the most recent, and the other 7 all happened perfectly.

---

I don't think that all attempts happened perfectly but those 7 did , I believe the Ascians made more attempts than the successful calamities and fail void shows, my basis for this is Hydelyan tends to not make WoLs until she senses Ascian involvement in some way or another great threat to her like Ultima. Why would she need to she is currently in charge and making WoLs is giving up some of her power, to do that when there is no threat seems pointless. The WoLs myth has existed for a very long time, earliest I believe we know is the tailend of the Allagan Empire, Allagan Empire existed for a very long time as well, suspiciously long compared, they were around long enough to undergo cultural collapse, I think Emet-Selch when he created the Allagan Empire didn't intend for it to last as long as it did initially (parallels to Garlean Empire is pretty apparent and he wanted a civil war to happen by not naming an heir) but something went wrong either Source side, or shard side where their plans were put on hold until both were ready.

It wouldn't be a stretch to think past WoLs succeeded occasionally in preventing a Calamity either Source or Shard weren't ready, but never destroying the root cause that is the Ascians, so Ascians can just come back with plan B-Z as and when they want, heck they were doing just that with us with ARR-ShB.

The question I want to pose is why have they seemingly sped up their plans so much since the 7th Calamity? Could the 8th Calamity really be all that is needed for Zodiark to get enough power to dethrone Hydelyan, if so it would explain their haste for it.

The urgency doesn’t make any sense to me either. If anything if this is the last one needed they should be more careful, not less. They keep losing members but don’t seem to see that as a concern. It just all seems strange. Without any time limit on their end they really shouldn’t be moving so rashly.

I think they're finally feeling threatened. It was mentioned that Lahabrea's repeat body hopping had led him to insanity, and I have to wonder if perhaps Elidibus might be feeling the onset of that, too. Not to mention that there's now a Warrior of Light/Darkness who has proven capable of killing multiple Ascians (2 in the MSQ plus the Ascians of the Chalice in SMN 60). They accidentally started a war that threatened them, so now they're trying to move the timetable up so they don't lose everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowVix

Having done a small amount of project management myself, this is the most unbelievable part of the universe of XIV. That a project could be so well organized that the only failures were brought about by incomplete information on the first attempt, and direct intervention on the most recent, and the other 7 all happened perfectly.

---

Its not too unbelievable when you tell none of your potential enemies why and how you are doing anything. Our ignorance was their greatest strength. Then Emet spilled all the tea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowVix

I think they're finally feeling threatened. It was mentioned that Lahabrea's repeat body hopping had led him to insanity, and I have to wonder if perhaps Elidibus might be feeling the onset of that, too. Not to mention that there's now a Warrior of Light/Darkness who has proven capable of killing multiple Ascians (2 in the MSQ plus the Ascians of the Chalice in SMN 60). They accidentally started a war that threatened them, so now they're trying to move the timetable up so they don't lose everything.

---

I'm being pedantic here but technically the WoL only killed Emet-Selch. Lahabrea was killed by Thordan (although you could argue the WoL helped) . Nabriales and Igeyorhm and the various suits Acians should all be shards/reflections that were raised up to their posts, and could be replaced the same way. We've seen this happen with Emmerololth I believe, since Emmerololth died in 5.0 at the Isle of Val but we see a full set of overlords later on in the ARR patch series.

I do wonder how the process of creating an Asican from a reflection works. Is is something that Elidibus can do himself? Or does it take all three of the unsundered convocation members to do so? If he can't do it on his own, that would explain the added sense of urgency after Heavensward and his switch in attitude towards the WoL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowVix

I think they're finally feeling threatened.

---

There is a good point to the above statement. As cliche as it sounds, the game has changed and now Elidibus and the other Ascians are having trouble keeping a hold on the strings and may have lost control completely.

Two of the three Unbroken have been killed (Lahabrea and Emet-Selch) and they might not be replaceable because unlike the Broken Ascians, they haven't existed as shards.

The current WoL is fully capable of killing Ascians, but (possibly) more important is the fact that the WoL is the reincarnation of an Ascian, and has fused with Ardbert who was the WoL's counterpart AND another shard of the Ascian soul. We don't know how that changes the WoL (if it changes things at all). And said soul is implied to be the 14th and final Ascian Convocation member (the Ascian Order trying to bring about rejoinings are the other 13) who did not support the creation of Zodiak and refused to aid in the summoning.

And then there's Zenos...who's a loose cannon with an incredibly strong (and STABLE) artificial Echo, Ascian powers, and his own agenda.

Elidibus flat out says he can't predict where things are going and implies that for right now, he's just hanging on for the ride.

Emet-Selch does state that you don't have to be a shard of one of the original Ascians to be "raised up", just that the process is just easier if you are.

I agree with you and Snow, Elidibus is desperate. It doesn't take a WoL to kill an Ascian, Galuf and Gaius both have shown that. Ardbert and co killed Loghrif and Mitron on the First as well. Emet-Selch's dialogue implied the ascended Ascians were considered somewhat expendable and that it wasn't rare for them to die. If after Lahabrea's death, however, every Ascian that is killed can on longer be replaced it does explain his desperation to kill the WoL and reset the clock as it were. With the WoL's death (and that the Scions) the knowledge that the Scions have gathered on the Asicans would no longer be actionable and would hopefully be lost.

Eli goes from, "hey isn't the WoL interesting with how gifted they are with the Echo" and "we should be on the same side" in the ARR patch story to personally trying kill them in the Stormblood patch story. So whatever changed his attitude had to happen between those two points. From what we know, Lahabrea's death does seem like a good candidate, but since the WoL wasn't the direct culprit it makes me wonder if there is more significance to it beyond simply the death of one of the unsunderd Ascians.

I could be overthinking it though.:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naria

Emet-Selch does state that you don't have to be a shard of one of the original Ascians to be "raised up", just that the process is just easier if you are.

---

I missed that part. I thought you basically had to be an incarnation (how ever diminished) of an Ascian to be awaked and "raised up" into said Ascian. But what I really meant about Lahabrea and Emet-Selch is that because they survived the Sundering intact, they might not be able to be restored post death because (I think) they exist differently than the other Ascians and I don't know if they can be "raised up" in the manner that the broken ones are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naria

If after Lahabrea's death, however, every Ascian that is killed can on longer be replaced it does explain his desperation to kill the WoL and reset the clock as it were. With the WoL's death (and that the Scions) the knowledge that the Scions have gathered on the Asicans would no longer be actionable and would hopefully be lost.

---

It hadn't actually occured to me that with the death of Lahabrea, they might not be able to raise up more Ascians. If you needed all three Unbroken for whatever ceremony/ritual it takes, then the Ascians got screwed (and by Lahabrea's own dumbassery, no less).

It would also explain why Elibius went from "hey, let's work together. I really don't want the world destroyed" (although I do figure that the truce Elidibus was trying to propose was for the dual purpose of trying to confuse and manipulate the Scions as well as keeping the certain Ascians mechanications of some of the other Ascians from going too far) to "WoL must die" Elidibus would be keen on trying to kill the WoL and the Scions to try and reset the board (to go back to my earlier analogy) when he decided that they were too much of a hassle to manipulate the way the he wanted.

Quote:

---

And then there's Zenos...who's a loose cannon with an incredibly strong (and STABLE) artificial Echo, Ascian powers, and his own agenda.

---

I hadn't even thought of the Zenos factor. He doesn't seem to be keen on helping the Ascians, but he's also definitely keen on hornymurdering the WoL, so he's an entirely separate 3rd side for Elidibus to deal with. Plus with Emet-Selch (and his line) out of the ruling picture (Zenos explicitly stated he had no interest in doing any ruling), Garlemald is not going to be as easily molded by the Ascians any more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naria

I'm being pedantic here

---

Just because an Ascian post could be refilled, doesn't mean that an Ascian wasn't killed. The WoL has killed three Ascians in the MSQ, and is partially responsible for Lahabrea's death, since he weakened him to such an extent that he was powerless to resist Thordan. More Ascians added to the belt loop if you do the SMN line, as already said.

As for how folk are raised to the station, I imagine it would involve selecting a suitable, powerful individual with The Echo, and then bringing them before Elidibus so they may be tempered by Zodiark or bestowed the knowledge and power that befits their station.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Just because an Ascian post could be refilled, doesn't mean that an Ascian wasn't killed. The WoL has killed three Ascians in the MSQ, and is partially responsible for Lahabrea's death, since he weakened him to such an extent that he was powerless to resist Thordan. More Ascians added to the belt loop if you do the SMN line, as already said.

As for how folk are raised to the station, I imagine it would involve selecting a suitable, powerful individual with The Echo, and then bringing them before Elidibus so they may be tempered by Zodiark or bestowed the knowledge and power that befits their station.

---

When it came to raising the shards of the original members, i believe something was said about restoring their memories as convocation members.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowVix

Having done a small amount of project management myself, this is the most unbelievable part of the universe of XIV. That a project could be so well organized that the only failures were brought about by incomplete information on the first attempt, and direct intervention on the most recent, and the other 7 all happened perfectly.

---

I'm just guessing here, but I suspect the amount of time they have available to line these things up and get them right is fairly generous.

It all feels very fast from our perspective, but it has been something like a hundred years on the First IIRC, and the First didn't seem to show any real signs of fixing itself when we got there, even given that large passage of time.

Presumably if we had come up with some way of stopping the Empire that didn't involve traveling to other dimensions, then the Ascians could have just kept the First in that state till they came up with some other plan on the Source to trigger the calamity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Just because an Ascian post could be refilled, doesn't mean that an Ascian wasn't killed. The WoL has killed three Ascians in the MSQ, and is partially responsible for Lahabrea's death, since he weakened him to such an extent that he was powerless to resist Thordan. More Ascians added to the belt loop if you do the SMN line, as already said.

As for how folk are raised to the station, I imagine it would involve selecting a suitable, powerful individual with The Echo, and then bringing them before Elidibus so they may be tempered by Zodiark or bestowed the knowledge and power that befits their station.

---

I suppose the disagreement is a matter of semantics. I don't view any shard's destruction as the same as the death of that Ascian. True death or destruction, I mean. Even if that shard is completely destroyed, the rest of that soul is still intact and it has been at best been further maimed (unless that was the very last shard). Unless destroying one shard destroys them all (maybe it does?) then only that particular aspect/shard of the Asican is gone. I mean say Ardbert's shard was killed via a blade of light, unless that act killed the player character and the other 5 shards as well, the Ascian/Amaurotine soul that they originally were would still be existent.

Edit:
If destroying one shard destroys them all, however, you'd think that the Ascian's would have weaponized that in their own favor against Warriors of Light. Hmm this is getting into a bunch of metaphysics that the game hasn't really explained yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naria

I suppose the disagreement is a matter of semantics. I don't view any shard's destruction as the same as the death of that Ascian. True death or destruction, I mean. Even if that shard is completely destroyed, the rest of that soul is still intact and it has been at best been further maimed (unless that was the very last shard). Unless destroying one shard destroys them all (maybe it does?) then only that particular aspect/shard of the Asican is gone. I mean say Ardbert's shard was killed via a blade of light, unless that act killed the player character and the other 5 shards as well, the Ascian/Amaurotine soul that they originally were would still be existent.

Edit:
If destroying one shard destroys them all, however, you'd think that the Ascian's would have weaponized that in their own favor against Warriors of Light. Hmm this is getting into a bunch of metaphysics that the game hasn't really explained yet.

---

When we kill Nabriales, we do not know which shard he hails from, just that he is not of The Source. He alludes to the fact that the shard based Ascians could not come to The Source prior to us losing our Blessing of Light. This implies that they had no Source counterpart for the unsundered to raise up, meaning that all that or most of what was left of their original soul was with their shard body. Of course, nothing is certain, because this idea that all souls are split across the 14 worlds just in different bodies with different minds is so relatively new. I often wonder if they remember or review their old plot points as they wrote Shadowbringers.

Of course, we are shown black masked Ascians on The Source which raises many questions. Though it's probably easily answered as nobodies who were raised to basically be Ascian servants/henchmen. I suspect that the Convocation shard members are chosen and raised up from shards that constitute the majority of the soul in question, for in my mind, it is possible that the souls were sundered unevenly. For example, perhaps no portion of certain souls reside on the 3rd, 4th, or 5th shard, but there are soul portions on every other shard, with those 3 missing ones all being constituted on one of the other shards or The Source.

Nabriales doesn't say he was blocked from coming to the Source, he says he was blocked from entering the Rising Stones. In some ways that makes less sense, but no, sundered Ascians seem to come and go from the Source as they please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

The question I want to pose is why have they seemingly sped up their plans so much since the 7th Calamity? Could the 8th Calamity really be all that is needed for Zodiark to get enough power to dethrone Hydelyan, if so it would explain their haste for it.

---

I know this is a tad late and may have been pointed out, but I feel like the Ascian's haste isn't so much "We're having issues, we need to hurry" and more "Oh hey, we don't need to wait for everything to rebuild this time, sweet!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

Nabriales doesn't say he was blocked from coming to the Source, he says he was blocked from entering the Rising Stones. In some ways that makes less sense, but no, sundered Ascians seem to come and go from the Source as they please.

---

Nabriales's exact dialogue:

"The Blessing of Light kept you and your fellow meddlers safe. It was that which prevented my kind from entering your domain."

"My kind, I say, though it had no power over the likes of Elidibus and Lahabrea. Being of this world, they could come and go as they please, while I could only look on..."

Maybe it's different in the JP text, but in English it conveys that he's talking about the realm at large.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Nabriales's exact dialogue:

"The Blessing of Light kept you and your fellow meddlers safe. It was that which prevented my kind from entering your domain."

"My kind, I say, though it had no power over the likes of Elidibus and Lahabrea. Being of this world, they could come and go as they please, while I could only look on..."

Maybe it's different in the JP text, but in English it conveys that he's talking about the realm at large.

---

Remember that Nabriales was already on the Source BEFORE Midgardsormr stripped us of the blessing. It is implied he was the one who taught Ysayle how to summon Shiva, and he is seen after our battle with her observing from a distance.
Not to mention how we first encounter him face to face: He is literally ghosting us in Northern Thanalan and only when we confront him does he notice "Oh, hey you don't have the Blessing of Light anymore. Cool, I can now enter your base and steal magical macguffin exhibit A for my plans."

So even though the English text may seem like it is implying 'world' when it says 'domain', in context, it literally just means 'The place you consider your home".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Remember that Nabriales was already on the Source BEFORE Midgardsormr stripped us of the blessing. It is implied he was the one who taught Ysayle how to summon Shiva, and he is seen after our battle with her observing from a distance.

---

Judging by what he says, it is possible that Lahabrea gave him a way to come to The Source. In the first cutscene with Moenbryda in Northern Thanalan he says, "I suffered the overweening presence of Lahabrea that men might host the power of gods, only for you to undo my hard work."

It's quite possible, similar to how Elidibus gives Ardbert and co. a method to move from a Shard to the Source that the same is done for Shard based Ascians. Though, honestly, it's all a mess. I still don't know if they're ever gonna mention why Ascians no longer use Crystals of Darkness for body possession and the like.

My assumption is that when we beat Nabriales he restates that he may return everyday, for as long as it takes now that the Blessing is undone. He's also shown to immediately return from the rift in that same cutscene. To reconstitute a body without taking a physical host, even. While it is set within the Rising Stones, why would the building itself reject Ascians because we have The Blessing? By that logic, any building we've been in would be sealed to them, and that is incredibly silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Judging by what he says, it is possible that Lahabrea gave him a way to come to The Source. In the first cutscene with Moenbryda in Northern Thanalan he says, "I suffered the overweening presence of Lahabrea that men might host the power of gods, only for you to undo my hard work."

It's quite possible, similar to how Elidibus gives Ardbert and co. a method to move from a Shard to the Source that the same is done for Shard based Ascians. Though, honestly, it's all a mess. I still don't know if they're ever gonna mention why Ascians no longer use Crystals of Darkness for body possession and the like.

My assumption is that when we beat Nabriales he restates that he may return everyday, for as long as it takes now that the Blessing is undone. He's also shown to immediately return from the rift in that same cutscene. To reconstitute a body without taking a physical host, even. While it is set within the Rising Stones, why would the building itself reject Ascians because we have The Blessing? By that logic, any building we've been in would be sealed to them, and that is incredibly silly.

---

See edited statement. Also, suffering "the overweening presence" reads to me as "I needed his help to get my plans realized even if I didnt want his help", rather than "he helped me arrive on this world". As for when he returned after his physical body was killed, that was in his spiritual form, not a physical one, which is why it could be bound to an auracite. As for why the building itself would reject Ascians; it isn't, it is a magical protection set over the building by the Blessing of Light because our character considers it 'home'. Think how Voldemort was unable to kill Harry at the Dursely's because of the magical protection residing over his 'home'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

See edited statement. Also, suffering "the overweening presence" reads to me as "I needed his help to get my plans realized even if I didnt want his help", rather than "he helped me arrive on this world". As for when he returned after his physical body was killed, that was in his spiritual form, not a physical one, which is why it could be bound to an auracite. As for why the building itself would reject Ascians; it isn't, it is a magical protection set over the building by the Blessing of Light because our character considers it 'home'. Think how Voldemort was unable to kill Harry at the Dursely's because of the magical protection residing over his 'home'.

---

I think you mistake his intent on going to the Rising Stones once he realizes we don't have the Blessing as being that he couldn't access the building... for a thereto unforeseen and never again a plot point reason. It makes much more sense if he realized he could now no longer have to worry about Lahabrea or Elidibus shepherding him into a new body on The Source, and allowing him to take part in their plans. Rather, he could fulfill his own ambitions, which is what he is excited to start doing. He detests Lahabera's presence, because he has to kowtow somewhat, since he's only capable of being on The Source until the seal of the Blessing break by Lahabrea or Elidibus's auspices.

As for his new body being his spirit form, sure but it was something Ascians were said to be unable to do without Crystals of Darkness, manifest a body of any kind.

As for the Harry Potter reference, I don't think that's what was going on here at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I think you mistake his intent on going to the Rising Stones once he realizes we don't have the Blessing as being that he couldn't access the building... for a thereto unforeseen and never again a plot point reason. It makes much more sense if he realized he could now no longer have to worry about Lahabrea or Elidibus shepherding him into a new body on The Source, and allowing him to take part in their plans. Rather, he could fulfill his own ambitions, which is what he is excited to start doing. He detests Lahabera's presence, because he has to kowtow somewhat, since he's only capable of being on The Source until the seal of the Blessing break by Lahabrea or Elidibus's auspices.

---

Then by this definition, they could have easily done this during times when a person with the Blessing did not exist, i.e. any time before ARR, because the WoL is literally the only person to have a fully powered Blessing.

Quote:

---

As for his new body being his spirit form, sure but it was something Ascians were said to be unable to do without Crystals of Darkness, manifest a body of any kind.

---

I am certain the crystal of darkness was stated to be to how they possess people, rather than manifest a body of any kind.

Quote:

---

As for the Harry Potter reference, I don't think that's what was going on here at all.

---

And in the end, this is what it comes down to, a matter of interpretation, because nowhere else in the story does it imply that the Blessing prevented the other Ascians from journeying to the Source. Nowhere is it stated that the Ascians relied on Lahabrea and Elidibus on providing them hosts to be funneled into to exist on the Source. We can only hope that the other languages carry a more clear meaning, or that this was answered somewhere else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Then by this definition, they could have easily done this during times when a person with the Blessing did not exist, i.e. any time before ARR, because the WoL is literally the only person to have a fully powered Blessing.



I am certain the crystal of darkness was stated to be to how they possess people, rather than manifest a body of any kind.



And in the end, this is what it comes down to, a matter of interpretation, because nowhere else in the story does it imply that the Blessing prevented the other Ascians from journeying to the Source. Nowhere is it stated that the Ascians relied on Lahabrea and Elidibus on providing them hosts to be funneled into to exist on the Source. We can only hope that the other languages carry a more clear meaning, or that this was answered somewhere else.

---

Yep, they could have. Why they didn't... well it wasn't in the script.

Crystal of Darkness is how they originally came to possess their hosts, yes,which is how they keep their form manifest.

It's quite literally stated in Nabriales speech, "My kind." What would be the difference between Nabriales and Lahabrea/Elidibus? Sundering. I'm guessing it likely wasn't, since it relies on context we've gained from storylines beyond it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yep, they could have. Why they didn't... well it wasn't in the script.

---

That leaves what I'd consider a huge gaping plot hole, and the alternative explanation leaves a smaller one, which is why my interpretation leans that way. They always could have acted on their own volition to get their plans underway, Nabriales just couldn't because the thing he needed for his plan was locked away in a place he couldn't freely enter until the Blessing was gone.

Another example of an Ascian acting on their own for their own ends: Emmerololth, who wanted to get the primal Eureka out of cold storage from the Ilse of Val. That also happened before we lost the Blessing. Granted Emmerololth's actual fate in that endeavour is sort of up in the air still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

That leaves what I'd consider a huge gaping plot hole, and the alternative explanation leaves a smaller one, which is why my interpretation leans that way. They always could have acted on their own volition to get their plans underway, Nabriales just couldn't because the thing he needed for his plan was locked away in a place he couldn't freely enter until the Blessing was gone.

Another example of an Ascian acting on their own for their own ends: Emmerololth, who wanted to get the primal Eureka out of cold storage from the Ilse of Val. That also happened before we lost the Blessing. Granted Emmerololth's actual fate in that endeavour is sort of up in the air still.

---

No, it actually doesn't. If Lahabrea or Elidibus could have taken Tupsimati at any time before the WoL, then why didn't they? It's best not to try and divest the plot of every little thing, because it will fall apart. Villains that start out leagues beyond the hero could have killed us at any turn, but chose not to, for completely unspecified and no real good reason.

Also, if shard Ascians could touch down on The Source unassisted, free to sow chaos to their heart's content and bring on the next ardor, then why didn't all 13 members of the Convocation do just that once we'd cast out Lahabrea and ruined their plans the first time? To me a restriction on their coming and going makes the most sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naria

Eli goes from, "hey isn't the WoL interesting with how gifted they are with the Echo" and "we should be on the same side" in the ARR patch story to personally trying kill them in the Stormblood patch story. So whatever changed his attitude had to happen between those two points. From what we know, Lahabrea's death does seem like a good candidate, but since the WoL wasn't the direct culprit it makes me wonder if there is more significance to it beyond simply the death of one of the unsunderd Ascians.

---

He very specifically changes tack at the end of Heavensward - from memory, declaring "the Warrior of Light has grown too strong; their power encroaches on the gods". We just obliterated Igehyorhm and then went on to fight Thordan who was charged up with both Nidhogg's eyes and Lahabrea's aether. We're clearly not going to join his side and we're too dangerous to be allowed to continue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

No, it actually doesn't. If Lahabrea or Elidibus could have taken Tupsimati at any time before the WoL, then why didn't they? It's best not to try and divest the plot of every little thing, because it will fall apart. Villains that start out leagues beyond the hero could have killed us at any turn, but chose not to, for completely unspecified and no real good reason.

---

Yeah, it definitely sounds like Nabriales couldn't physically approach the Scions' base to steal Tupsimati until we lost the Blessing, or why wouldn't he have done that before?

I'm inclined to think they were just working from a completely different concept of what Ascians might be and what rules they might be governed by at that time. The cosmology of the setting, from the statements they make, seems to be the "real world" and "the void", with the Ascians allied to the void and trying to drag the world into chaos.

From memory, Nabriales also talks about the staff being some kind of "key" and it all seems like something from a different plot to the one we ended up with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

If Lahabrea or Elidibus could have taken Tupsimati at any time before the WoL, then why didn't they?

---

Simple, it wasn't a factor in their plans at the time. Or rather, Elidibus wasn't really active as a force until we beat Lahabrea, so it is actually more "wasn't a factor in Lahabrea's plans".

Quote:

---

It's best not to try and divest the plot of every little thing, because it will fall apart.

---

Actually, doing this is the exact reason the lore forum exists. And then we gather up the questions with the most glaring plotholes and present them to Koji or Oda or even Yoshi-P to try and cover them up. :p

Quote:

---

Also, if shard Ascians could touch down on The Source unassisted, free to sow chaos to their heart's content and bring on the next ardor, then why didn't all 13 members of the Convocation do just that once we'd cast out Lahabrea and ruined their plans the first time? To me a restriction on their coming and going makes the most sense.

---

The true answer? Arrogance, a staple trait for most Final Fantasy villains (not all ofc). They believed themselves better than us, and payed the price. What I find less believable is that the Ascian Overlords do not have a sense of camaraderie regarding their shared origin. Remember when Nabriales got destroyed? (Lahabrea: Eh, he brought it upon himself). How about with Igeyhorm and Lahabrea (Elidibus: those idiots left a huge mess for me to clean up), and Elidibus in general (Elidibus: I do not mind if you kill the black robed guys if it is part of your plans) (Note:granted this can be retroactively ascribed to being able to bring most of them back through their other shards, with the excption of Lahabrea), but all in all that is most likely due to a change in direction of writing rather than everything else.

It seems like the Ascians actually aren't completely united in their goals and motivations. Emet and Elidibus appear to be more on the side of working towards the rejoining, while Lahabrea and Nabriales are more for killing Hydaelyn to make way for Zodiark. After all, them just brute forcing calamities doesn't achieve a rejoining if a shard isn't ready.