Proposed [6.0] RDM Actions

Hi all,

Giro Iatari here! I’ve seen a couple of threads on the official forums and the FFXIV Subreddit regarding the speculation of skills that jobs will learn in the next expansion. I’ve always had fun anticipating the possibilities of the next set of skills each job would have since [2.x]. I've created a document to present my rendition of what the next actions should be! Throughout the document, I prompt you with questions about my design. Feel free to answer them in your response to this post! In the appendix, I answer a couple of common questions / concerns / suggestions people may want to ask. I will add additional questions / concerns / suggestions and my answers to them in the future. Without further delay:

Final Fantasy XIV: [6.0] LV 90 Red Mage Action Speculation

Warning: The document is pretty lengthy, but I wanted to make sure that my design is as detailed as possible to avoid confusion. I hope it's easy to follow!

There's a lot to like here, and without delving too deeply into it, not a whole lot that seems particularly bad about it. I like the idea of using the balance gauge to feed into your enchantment gauge. This would represent a pretty significant expansion of the job's kit, though. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the idea of them ever doing anything like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There's a lot to like here, and without delving too deeply into it, not a whole lot that seems particularly bad about it. I like the idea of using the balance gauge to feed into your enchantment gauge. This would represent a pretty significant expansion of the job's kit, though. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the idea of them ever doing anything like this.

---

Thank you! I've gotten a LOT of feedback on the FFXIV Discussion subreddit about the Enchantment Gauge. It seems like the actions themselves are great, but the introduction of them into RDM's simple playstyle is too much at once (Especially the Enchantment Gauge). For now, I'm currently tweaking the skills and actions with their suggestions in mind. (Removal of Schielhau's DoT, Removal of Enchantment Gauge). Thanks again for your input!

I do like a lot of this, especially Verwater/blizzard, the way they interact with Moulinet, and Balestra in particular.

However, it does concern me that this is adding a load of additional offensive abilities, and my hotbars are full enough as it is!

I would suggest, that Verwater/blizzard are a upgrade to Contre Sizte and replace it at level 82, but the one that is available is whichever mana is currently the lowest.
This shouldn't be too big a problem because the use of Verwater/blizzard would be via weaving, and Contre Sixte would merely be an occasional thing you double weave in there anyway. Also losing the choice between water or blizzard shouldn't be too big a deal because it already commits you to either an aero or thunder spell upon use of it anyway. As a bonus... the icon remains the same colour, more or less!

Edit: I read further down and found out you already considered this! Well, combining water and blizzard at least.
And you bring up the valid issue of what would happen if your mana was even.

Another solution could be to make Verwater/blizzard into the 'AoE with drop off' kind of skill, so 400 potency to first target and 50% potency to all remaining targets.
This could allow them to replace both Fleche and Contre sixte as they could be used equally for single target or AoE, but their potencies would likely make them more suited to AoE in regular rotation, and have a more limited use in the single target rotation, which I admit I haven't fully worked out yet the implication of this in the single target rotation, it could well be too big a buff.
[Edit2: They could have an effect like "increases black/white mana by 7, + 5 for each additional target struck, up to a maximum of two additional targets" which would lower the mana increase to something more fitting for the single target rotation]
The loss of Fleche and Contre Sixte I think is more than made up with by the additional melee skills, plus these were never strictly melee skills anyway, even if they used aethereal swords in their animations.

In either case, this results in saving not just one but two skill slots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GiroIatari

Thank you! I've gotten a LOT of feedback on the FFXIV Discussion subreddit about the Enchantment Gauge. It seems like the actions themselves are great, but the introduction of them into RDM's simple playstyle is too much at once (Especially the Enchantment Gauge). For now, I'm currently tweaking the skills and actions with their suggestions in mind. (Removal of Schielhau's DoT, Removal of Enchantment Gauge). Thanks again for your input!

---

I don't think you should put too much stock into the FFXIV subreddit. These are likely most of the same people who only started playing the job because someone on the internet told them it's good for lazy people who don't want to push buttons. Some additional complexity would be nice for Red Mage and the enchantment gauge itself is a nice idea thematically. These people most likely are going to get their way because square will most likely never add much more depth to the job than it currently has (if they were going to do that, they would have done it in shadowbringers - Instead we got a couple QoL additions and a single spell tacked on top of our melee combo). Don't let them make you change your hypothetical vision for a deeper RDM too.

I think something that this rework really needs to keep in mind is skillslot economy. I'm pretty sure people don't want struggle to fit 3-6 new skills on their bars.

1) I think you could just make VerBlizzard/VerWater a stack system like SMN Ruin IV procs instead of a CD which necessitates you to smash it on cooldown which runs contrary to your Weaponskills mastery change. Make Fleche/Contre Sixte give you VerWater/Blizzard ready stacks that alter your next Veraero/thunder II cast. Enhanced Moulinet can just reduce Contre Sixte's cooldown instead. It'll be more flexible that way, letting you quickly build mana on demand while still serving as a buffer for when Ver ready procs aren't going your way.

2) I reworded this since I have a clearer idea of what's wrong with this picture. There is far too much emphasis on the Enchantment Gauge in this design. Secondary gauges enable you to press feel-good buttons that don't get in the way of your main rotation, but in this expansion you'd add 3 different skills that solely revolve around the secondary gauge. Let's keep some other secondary gauges in mind:

1. oGCDs
Heat Gauge-> Autoturret
Esprit-> Saber dance
Ninki-> 50 Ninki spenders
Life of the Dragon-> Nastrond/Stardiver spammer mode.
Kenki/Meditation stacks-> all strictly oGCD abilities. Kenki is all about bleeding excess Kenki, not about carefully managing exact values.

2. Nuke GCDs
Soul Voice ->Apex Arrow, fire at max Soul Voice.
Polyglot->Foul/Xenoglossy, cast AoE, instant ST.
Blood Lily->Afflatus Misery instant cast.

In every case, you have quite a bit of leeway to use these with the main risk being overcapping your resource (you didn't spend it!) None of the secondary gauges involved have you changing your base rotation, they are strictly there to reward you for doing your rotation right. With the Enchantment gauge there is way too much going on between Balestra, Manafication, Chant du Cygne and Schielhau and RDM loses its appeal as a simpler caster with melee flair. Balestra isn't an "I'm doing this right" button, it's an "I have to slow down access to my burst combo" button. Schielhau has a similar problem in that you will only ever be forced to slow down your rotation to accommodate it. You also do not want the possibility of missing a Trick attack which is really the only reason Chant du Cygne has an Enchantment cost. Finally, RDM combo timings aren't ever consistent because of RNG. You do not want people to be fishing for Ver ready procs for Balestra for optimized manafication or whatever, that's just a hassle.

The Enchantment gauge design right now is competing against the Mana gauge rather than enhancing it. Now let's just say that Schielhau is just a melee physical pocket Scorch instead of DoT weaponskill chain, an on-demand nuke that gives you lots of mana and the sole spender of the Enchantment gauge. Maybe you want to save it for when you have bad RNG, maybe you want to unload it during a burst window, maybe you need to move around the boss, maybe one of your oGCDs is going to come off cooldown during a cast. Regardless, you will never run into a situation in which you'd wish Schielhau never existed, you'd be anticipating the perfect moment to hit the enemy with a melee Scorch and in doing so, loop back into your burst combo so you can hit them with more melee Scorches.

I really love the idea of the melee combo being different/upgraded while under the effect of Manafication!

Great write up! Thanks for sharing. I do think your new gauge is interesting, and while I understand it can be worrying for people that like RDM as the simple straightforward job it is, I'm all for real complexity added in RDM. What we got with Manafication CD reduced and Reprise / engagement feels lackluster to my conception of making the job getting a higher skill ceiling.


I like what you did except one thing which already came up here before 5.0 when we were speculating : AoE. I kept my position on this, we don't really need more just for flavour because what we had / have did/does the job. A few tweaks here and there sure, perhaps have better mana gains from verThunder/Aero 2 and Impact/Scatter, and something to make Moulinet-chaining feel better.
But in the end, AoE is so underwhelming in this game I don't really see the point of adding more, because trash mobs will always be trash mobs. If we had actual gameplay tied to mob packs in FFXIV, then perhaps I'd be all in for a proper AoE rotation and resources. But in the current design I don't see the point. Perhaps we could have an upgrade at level X to VerAero II and VerThunder II for potency and even animations (if people want VerBlizzard and VerWater so much).

That was a good read
Unless you already knew and still went for it for easthetical reason, you might want to change Rouge Lotus to Lotus Rouge as Rouge Lotus sounds weird in French (as weird as Lotus red does in English).

Also good argument on the dot. I'm in general against DoT for the RDM but if it's under specific circumstance as a reward sure why not (although I think I'd just prefer a big hit still xD)

I would however put verblizz/water on the gcd . As an ogcd the whole "mvm tool" disapeares as, unless you're about to move the very next second, dmg ogcd are meant to be used as soon as they're up. You would never hold on it as an ogcd whereas you would if it were a gcd.
Maybe I missed something while reading but I believe this spell as an instant gcd would benefit the whole kit much more and keep RDM coherent.
Oh and I love your blade enchant idea. It's actually really neat and definitely would fix some issue with lingering oroc before finisher / transition !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I don't think you should put too much stock into the FFXIV subreddit. These are likely most of the same people who only started playing the job because someone on the internet told them it's good for lazy people who don't want to push buttons.

---

He's not talking about the main subreddit. He's talking about ffxivdiscussion, which is a better subreddit made for discussions.

Great read! Totally would love Verwater/blizzard, and getting a DoT combo to alternate with would make the melee combo that bit more engaging!

I agree completely that RDM needs some evolution it was of of the many jobs to remain the same but is so far the only one stagnating rivaling MCH in terms of simplicity but even that job juggles more. I adore these well thought out breakdowns and makes me look forward to see if some jobs will continue to stagnate or not

i like rdm, but iam not really "feeling" their playstyle right now, hope change a little later in the future.

in my view, i always think the way rdm work is that you generate white mana by using melee attack and black mana when casting magic. that way their play style is more "mixed" compare to now cast-cast-cast-mana dump combo-repeat

Aight, breaking it down -

PROS:

• New oGCD skills that increase Mana generation
• Verblizzard and Verwater have bonuses on spells of the OPPOSITE Mana-type, encouraging weaving and conscious decision-making
• More interaction with Enchanted Moulinet to create a semi-"finisher" for AoE that accelerates the AoE rotation
• An attempt at a branching melee combo to satisfy players who want more melee play
• A tool to burn off a spare proc before Verholy/Verflare if necessary
• Capstone skill isn't just another add-on to the end of a melee combo
• Purely adding onto the existing system, showing it can be expanded upon without being completely rewritten

CONS:

• The Enchantment Gauge relies on the melee combo in order to activate a combo branch. Presently melee combos occur every ~40 sec on average, meaning it can take around 80 sec to generate Schielhau; while this is slightly accelerated by Verwater or Verblizzard once a minute, no comment is made on whether Schielhau is also meant to generate Verflare/Verholy/Scorch (though I would assume it doesn't), which means that it can actually slow down Mana generation significantly on each use, netting even at best or resulting in fewer melee combos per fight.
• Thanks to the above, and the prerequisite of a full melee combo before activation, the DoT placed by Schielhau will have low uptime.
• Also also, if the Enchantment Gauge is cleared on death like the Balance Gauge is, we'll run into the same issue as the old Dreadwyrm Aether rotation that plagued SMN in SB, requiring an absurd build-up with an extreme reset penalty.
• Enjolt Balestra rips off both procs if they happen to be active simultaneously going into a melee combo, for rather low potency gain for the second proc consumed.
• You'll need to pool extra Enchantment Gauge to take advantage of Chant du Cynge and Schielhau in a single rotation, and since Chant du Cynge replaces Riposte during Manafication, it creates a mandatory Enchantment Gauge barrier to entry to the combo with Manafication active. So if you missed Enjolt Balestra in the opener, you just wasted Manafication completely...

• I would rather go the whole 9 yards if we're going the Mystic Knight hybrid route. Perhaps have Balestra brand an En spell based on the last Ver-attack used instead of the Verfire/Stone procs. But (and admit I might had missed it) there is the matter of what does the melee skills DO under the en-buffs. I would propose tying the en buffs to the melee skills and have them use up the mana opposite of the element's school (for example E. Reprise would use only 5. Black Mana under Enaero) opening up another way of using the melee combo, and helping with balancing if you leaned too heavily onto one side.
• Regarding Embolden. I would rather make it more powerful, but not a party-wide effect, freeing up party comps while keeping the flavor. (and Dragon Sight and Closed Position set a precedent)
• Verwater/Blizzard is a good idea. nothing more can be said there.
• I would actually propose merging Corps-a-corps and Displacement or Displacement and Engagement into a distance sensitive button, that would free up room and let the RDM know that the button would be used for moving closer or further from mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

• I would actually propose merging Corps-a-corps and Displacement or Displacement and Engagement into a distance sensitive button, that would free up room and let the RDM know that the button would be used for moving closer or further from mobs.

---

I can see a problem here, if you are dumping oGCDs during your melee combo, you would backflip in between melee hits. That'd be unfortunate.

I don't think there are real button bloat problems with RDM, especially now that verHoly/Flare proc on Aero/Thunder. ( And I actually kept my old binds so I have two times VerThunder and VerAero because I can't get my muscle memory out!).

I agree that three oGCDS for movement is a bit too much, but they are well incorporated in the flow of the job. Perhaps based on your idea, having the same button for Corps à Corps and Engagement could work, and keep Displacement as a separate one. There is also the option of taking out the potency of Displacement, but I don't really like this one.
I still think Engagement was overkill. I'd rather have holding Displacement less punishing DPS wise, but still rewarding to use. (Having charges on these oGCD could work fine I guess).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mansion

I can see a problem here, if you are dumping oGCDs during your melee combo, you would backflip in between melee hits. That'd be unfortunate.

I don't think there are real button bloat problems with RDM, especially now that verHoly/Flare proc on Aero/Thunder. ( And I actually kept my old binds so I have two times VerThunder and VerAero because I can't get my muscle memory out!).

I agree that three oGCDS for movement is a bit too much, but they are well incorporated in the flow of the job. Perhaps based on your idea, having the same button for Corps à Corps and Engagement could work, and keep Displacement as a separate one. There is also the option of taking out the potency of Displacement, but I don't really like this one.
I still think Engagement was overkill. I'd rather have holding Displacement less punishing DPS wise, but still rewarding to use. (Having charges on these oGCD could work fine I guess).

---

With regards to that, I have two proposals.

The first, is that Corps à Corps and Displacement still get merged into one button, but instead of being distance sensitive, using Corps à Corps opens a window (say, 15-20 sec) where it transforms into Displacement. Displacement gets a reduced CD, but is reworked so that you always move back to the position you used the initial Corps à Corps from, similarly to Between the Lines.
This largely resolves the issue of backflipping off ledges, and if you decide to weave oGCDs during the combo, you can prevent flipping out of melee. You can keep the reward of Displacement, or offload the damage onto Corps à Corps. Then you can nix Engagement completely, freeing two buttons (which works great if we're discussing the addition of Verwater/Verblizzard anyway). Perhaps instead of Engagement, you get a trait to Corps à Corps so that during the Displacement window, you get increased mitigation or an absorption barrier, just to facilitate the temporary Melee transformation.

Alternately, turn Engagement into a point-blank AoE attack, so that it has an actual use beyond just "I can't Displace right now." As an AoE you can justify the lower damage it gets per target compared to Displacement.
This, of course, doesn't resolve the alleged button bloat aspect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archwizard

With regards to that, I have two proposals.

The first, is that Corps à Corps and Displacement still get merged into one button, but instead of being distance sensitive, using Corps à Corps opens a window (say, 15-20 sec) where it transforms into Displacement. Displacement gets a reduced CD, but is reworked so that you always move back to the position you used the initial Corps à Corps from, similarly to Between the Lines.
This largely resolves the issue of backflipping off ledges, and if you decide to weave oGCDs during the combo, you can prevent flipping out of melee. You can keep the reward of Displacement, or offload the damage onto Corps à Corps. Then you can nix Engagement completely, freeing two buttons (which works great if we're discussing the addition of Verwater/Verblizzard anyway). Perhaps instead of Engagement, you get a trait to Corps à Corps so that during the Displacement window, you get increased mitigation or an absorption barrier, just to facilitate the temporary Melee transformation.

Alternately, turn Engagement into a point-blank AoE attack, so that it has an actual use beyond just "I can't Displace right now." As an AoE you can justify the lower damage it gets per target compared to Displacement.
This, of course, doesn't resolve the alleged button bloat aspect.

---

Of course it could work. But based on your idea of Displacement putting you back where you used Corps à Corps, it can still be problematic. Moving platforms (Eden 3), a particular mechanic (landing in someones tethered orb, landing in an AoE that wasn't there before). Let's face it, there is no real solution to this problem other than the original intended use of Displacement, which was "use it carefully". The addition of Engagement cut this part of the gameplay because it makes holding Displacement a heavier DPS loss than what it used to be (or at least I think).
Perhaps 15 yalms is just too much, and it should be reduced to 8-10 yalms too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mansion

Of course it could work. But based on your idea of Displacement putting you back where you used Corps à Corps, it can still be problematic. Moving platforms (Eden 3), a particular mechanic (landing in someones tethered orb, landing in an AoE that wasn't there before).

---

I mean yeah, but those are exactly issues that it would have had under original Displacement anyway, and are inherent to any gap-opener movement skill; if you don't check where you're gonna land, you'll probably die. The only true solution to that is simply to not have a gap-opener skill in the first place, which I vehemently disagree with removing from a primary ranged job like RDM. Meanwhile, having a large window on when to hit it at least gives you leeway on how long you can hold it after CaC.

Though as has been pointed out to me, an alternative to this would be to simply have a Combo Action or buff given by CaC that makes the next Displacement within 15-20 sec send you to the spot CaC was used, even if the two buttons remain separate for the rare cases where you actually need Disp to make a gap before a CaC. Which I think there's literally zero reason not to do, especially if it could still mean removing Engagement (as the safety would no longer be necessary).

Raising the dead on this topic as if prefer this RDM incarnation than EW tweaks. As non controversial as they are don’t let a bird walk when it can soar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

Raising the dead on this topic as if prefer this RDM incarnation than EW tweaks. As non controversial as they are don’t let a bird walk when it can soar

---

No one wants a DoT (something that works best under raid buffs) to be unavailable up front. Even less people want a dot that's unavailable up front and also unavailable under raidbuffs. Literally no one wants one that is unavailable up front, unavailable under raidbuffs, and will always be unaligned with raid buffs.

Verblizzard and Verwater are just pretty Melee-accelerating Contre Sixtes and would just get used like that, with them being blapped out as Verblizzard->Veraero->Verwater->Verthunder or similar thing without actually using them to fix mana or anything like that. Which, I mean, is fine, but it's adding two extra buttons for no actual game play outside of 'just melee more.'

RDM has very little room for more abilities in its opener.

No one wants a trick attack that doesn't align with 60/120.

The entire thing reads like taking every bad idea suggested for RDM over Shadowbringers and mashing them together, bloating the FUCK out of RDM buttons, and then calling it good despite having a suggested rotation that's kinda scuffed and antithetical to the stated roles of the job by making it worse at synergizing with the party, rather than better.

Fan fiction rotations often commit all these sins and I'm glad they took the route of making things more playable rather than making things more Heavenswardbloat for the sake of Heavenswardbloat.