*spoiler* What was the point of making Yda... *spoiler*

Sorry if this question has been asked already, but what was the point of making Yda into Lyse AND (to my knowledge) revealing that the real Yda had died even before 1.0? I haven't played Stormblood or Heavensward in a few years, but in hindsight, it just doesn't seem to contribute to the story in any meaningful way.

I felt like it would have been far, far more meaningful for Yda to have simply been Yda, to have escaped from Ala Mhigo as a child and later join the Scions, and then to have dedicated herself to her work with the Scions in the following years and become complacent with her new life. The complacency could have led to an extreme feeling of guilt after Papalymo dies as a result of Ilberd's actions - actions which, if I recall correctly, were driven by resentment at Eorzea's inaction and especially by resentment at the inaction of Ala Mhigan refugees like Raubahn and, in this hypothetical case, Yda. She could have felt guilty because she could have done more for her country and possibly saved Papalymo in the process, which also could have given her the resolve to fight for her long lost homeland to prevent deaths like this from happening again - two very powerful reasons for her to join you in Stormblood and eventually leave the Scions at the end. This whole scenario just seems like it would have made more sense and been more consistent with the themes and other characters of the expansion. Raubahn would have understood and been able to guide her because his situation would have been similar.

With Lyse, she just doesn't seem to have a good reason to fight for Ala Mhigo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like she wants to fight for them because her sister and father did. She didn't really remember her childhood or have any substantial ties to Ala Mhigo. She just enters the country and wants to fight because...her sister wanted to? Even the short stories on the Lodestone about Lyse were incredibly weak. M'naago resolves to follow Lyse because she finds that Lyse had beaten up a bunch of Garleans with bestial ferocity despite being mostly an outsider, but...wouldn't anyone fight with bestial ferocity if their lives were on the line? The whole story and everything surrounding Lyse just seems so inconsistent and contrived, and I don't understand WHY when it seems like it would have been so much better and consistent and emotional to just have her be Yda.

So yeah! What was the point of making Lyse? Would it have been better to just have Yda be Yda without the (in my opinion) superfluous sister subplot?

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Originally Posted by daltonjl

Why Lyse

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It's kind of funny, because a lot of the points in your post still apply to Lyse, as Lyse. My take on it is that they did it to further separate her from Papalymo, and also try to give Papalymo's sacrifice more weight. Basically, he was watching over Lyse, and giving her the appearance of a Sharlayan Archon. By removing those marks from Lyse... if she'd actually been Yda, it was established that Yda actually did earn Archonship. Then Square would have had to explain why she didn't have them in the Stormblood trailer, but let's forget that for a moment. This would mean that for Yda to be believable as a Member of The Circle of Knowing, she wouldn't need aetherology explanations, and should technically have been nearly as learned as Y'shtola or at the very least, Thancred. The real Yda is supposed to be older than Lyse as well, old enough to spirit her away to Sharlayan.

If it were still Yda, she'd be older, likely mid 30s. Lyse is 25. She was 5 when she fled her homeland, meaning her feeling like an outsider makes perfect sense. If you were born somewhere, and only lived there until you were 5, then you wouldn't exactly have many memories there, nor an incredibly strong attachment to the place. Any attachment you did feel would be based off of older family or family friends who informed your views as you were raised, to give you a bias.

As for your point about, "could have saved Papalymo." No, you should replay the story. That was a sacrifice he was willing to make, and Thancred takes her by force to the airship. If the WoL tries to stand by and stop/save him, he blows them into the airship with magic. What Papalymo did was suicide by sealing spell.

Ultimately, the decision for this is admittedly arbitrary, but it was done to distance her from Papalymo and the Scions to try to make it more believable when she gives up being a Scion. To more clearly evince that she is an Ala Mhigan. That she's lost her whole family to the Garleans. That's why she fights with them in mind. Obviously it fell flat, because nobody liked it. I think the main reason being, she'd been Yda since 1.0, so for a lot of people, the reveal came off as, "Explain away the trailer." But I think it's one of the few times they had the plan for the character all along, because it fits fairly nicely with all the previous scenes with the character, where she is notably less learned than the other scions, unwilling to show her face, and only really excels at fighting.

I assume it was to give her some sort of motivation for so fervently trying to work with the ala mhigan resistance--"i was too young to be in the resistance when all that bad shit went down, but my older sister totally was and people need a figurehead like her, so I'll carry on her dream" and all that. Pretending to be her big sis so people will have a name to cling to. It also gave her a cover when she was spying on the gryphon/griffin's forces leading up to stormblood.

Though she could have just done the same for her father (also a resistance bigshot iirc), so idk. I think the point was that Lyse has only heard of the atrocities of ala mhigo under garlean occupation since she was too young to remember much, while Yda was and lived through that, and it's easier to support someone who knows what you've been through/are going through? Then again it would be a PR nightmare if she revealed truth after doing so.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

My take on it is that they did it to further separate her from Papalymo, and also try to give Papalymo's sacrifice more weight. Basically, he was watching over Lyse, and giving her the appearance of a Sharlayan Archon. By removing those marks from Lyse... if she'd actually been Yda, it was established that Yda actually did earn Archonship. Then Square would have had to explain why she didn't have them in the Stormblood trailer, but let's forget that for a moment. This would mean that for Yda to be believable as a Member of The Circle of Knowing, she wouldn't need aetherology explanations, and should technically have been nearly as learned as Y'shtola or at the very least, Thancred.

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Oh! That's a very good point about her total lack of knowledge on aetherology.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As for your point about, "could have saved Papalymo." No, you should replay the story. That was a sacrifice he was willing to make, and Thancred takes her by force to the airship. If the WoL tries to stand by and stop/save him, he blows them into the airship with magic. What Papalymo did was suicide by sealing spell.

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Sorry, I should have clarified - my point was not about saving Papalymo directly in that moment or even saving Papalymo at all. It was just a part about what a hypothetical Yda's thought process would be following his death. Maybe if it were Yda all along - an Yda who became complacent in the Scions like Raubahn became complacent with the Flames - then she would feel that she could have done more for Ala Mhigo and stopped someone like Ilberd from creating the very circumstances that led to Papalymo's death. Then, she would have felt more resolved to do more from that point on than she had in the past. It was all just a hypothetical scenario that I feel would have been more consistent with the themes in Stormblood. Papalymo dies regardless.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

But I think it's one of the few times they had the plan for the character all along, because it fits fairly nicely with all the previous scenes with the character, where she is notably less learned than the other scions, unwilling to show her face, and only really excels at fighting.

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This actually does make me feel a little less negative about the character. I still feel like the real Yda would have had more potential as a character, though with what you said in mind, it really wouldn't fit as well with previous scenes and been inconsistent with her status as a member of the Circle of Knowing.

I think much of it had to do with the story they wanted to try to tell (One can debate the success of the story but I think it's clear of what they were trying to do). They seemed to want to tell the story of a person growing to understand some of nuances of the war and to grow as their own person from a result of those actions.

Yda herself presents some of the same problems some of the original Scions had with their character growth. Thancred, Y'shtola, Papalymo, and Urianger basically initially existed to be able to explain things that the Warrior of Light needs to know through exposition. The only time they could really grow is when they were put in a particular context where they're knowledge and hordes of resource really won't resolve a problem which is why Thancred, Y'shtola and Urianger worked so well in Shadowbringers when they were removed from the status quo and forced to adapt to a new situation.

I think the problem with Yda as the main figure of Stormblood is that this would not of put her far enough out of her status quo to make the conflicts Lyse has really work or they would have to be written drastically differently. Yda IS experienced, she IS aware of the complications of the war, and she knows particularly everyone involved in the conflict. There would be little reason for Yda to go with the WoL to Kugane given she likely would have been less rash in response to the situation nor would there be any questioning in Yda’s mind on her position in the Ala Mhigian Resistance where Lyse does express some hesitation from time to time.

Could of it been done? Yes, probably. Though it would probably need to be a very different story then what we got. Given Stormblood mostly seemed to exist to get the Ala Mhigo and Doma subplots resolved as quickly as possible, it probably made more sense at the time.

I was one of those post-release players, so I never had the "but they had to justify the trailer!" mentality. From my perspective Lyse's reveal made sense, even if it felt a bit cheesed. What fell flat immediately afterwards was how incompetent she was at integrating herself into the Ala Mhigan resistance. Again, understandable, but it also breaks the suspension of disbelief when she becomes the leader of the resistance at the end. It would have made more sense for Yda to take that role. They didn't give Lyse anything to build on once her disguise was torn away, and it shows. (Seriously she spends most of HW running around with the resistance in Eorzea, she should be at least a LITTLE more competent.)

A secondary note (And the one that caught my attention) is that I personally think that while Lyse feels guilty over Papalymo's death, I don't think she would have felt like she could have prevented it. Because A) Papalymo can be just as stubborn as she can and B) Ilberd didn't seem like the kind of person who would be stopped. He wanted Ala Mhigo back, and he wanted it back 15 years ago. He couldn't understand why people like Raubahn seemingly 'abandoned' their people, when they were first dealing with their own issues before biding their time and building their forces. (It's kinda hard to lead a rebellion from the bloodsands.) He was not going to listen to reason, he just wanted the same bull-headed force that freed them from the Mad King and immediately let the Garleans in. People like Yda and Raubahn were willing to retreat, strategize and wait until they had a surer footing. And thankfully, Lyse learned from them.

I think the character change would have landed better had the writers shown Lyse with other skills that could appeal her to the resistance, aside from her fighting skills. Maybe having her stay and personally help rebuild rather than travel all the way to Othard just because the WoL does would have helped.

One thing that's interesting is that if you played 1.0 and started in Gridania, then you met the original Yda. 1.0 had players time travel into the past a lot with the echo beyond just cutscenes. The echo flashbacks were 10-15 years into the past, so Lyse would have still been a child.

Another reason for the switcheroo is that by having Lyse not be a Archon, that gives her more reason to be able to stay behind in Ala Mhigo and for the narrative to focus on a smaller set of characters for Shadowbringers.

This sorta came up in a different thread recently, so I'll just quote myself from there:

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Originally Posted by RenewalXVII

Thematically, I think part of what the writers were aiming for in SB were the stories of young people who had grown up entirely in the shadow of conquered states: Lyse, Fordola, and Yotsuyu all spent most of their formative years with a homeland controlled by the Empire. It's clear that a thematic parallel was set up among them. Yda as we knew her by HW was a bit too old for that, and the writers wanted their two-fer with an Ala Mhigan Scion invested in freeing their nation, while also being young enough to parallel Fordola and Yotusyu.

Like, the obvious counterfactual for SB's story is for Lyse to be introduced as an entirely separate character from Yda in late HW/early SB, and I don't think people would have been any more invested in such a Lyse than the one we did get. The writers were attempting to bind old affection for Yda--which I certainly have since I started the game in Gridania--with a new character concept in Lyse, and their two-fer attempt didn't land cleanly enough for a lot of people.

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My theory is that they realized there was too many main-Scions and decided to cut some out at the end of 2.x. >w>

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Originally Posted by RenewalXVII

This sorta came up in a different thread recently, so I'll just quote myself from there:

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Wow! That is a really good point and it makes a buttload of sense. I believe it would apply to Hien, as well, since I believe he grew up during the Doman occupation and received a Garlean education, if I'm not mistaken. If that's the case, then I guess they must have stumbled a bit with the writing for any number of reason, like the ones stated previously. Good stuff!

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

My theory is that they realized there was too many main-Scions and decided to cut some out at the end of 2.x. >w>

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There is always going to be a little bit of that. Due to the On-going nature of FFXIV story with so many characters, in order to keep the story coherent, only so many characters can be focused on at a time. Heavensward for example already had a pretty focused story on cast in Ishgard, if the entire Scion crew had remained part of HW's story, the entire thing would have become bloated and unfocused very quickly.

Though I doubt that was there reason for having Yda dead and Lyse being the current Yda. If they wanted Yda to leave the scions and support Ala Mhigo at the end of the story they could have found a way to make it work. However, it does explain why Y'shtola was injured early on and why Thancred spent most of the story doing off screen work during the initial Stormblood main scenario.

To be honest, I don't think they knew what they were doing with the character. Just look at the prominence of Lyse and Fordola have on the poster and then remember just how important they were to the story. Lyse ended up very little character growth and was just shoved out of the main story in the end and Fordola never had a conclusion to her story in the game. 2 of the biggest characters in the poster end up having stories that pretty much went nowhere. Yotsuyu ended up getting way more development.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....AC_SL1500_.jpg

Fordola had a conclusion. It just came in later patches and wasn't tied up with a nice little bow on it like many other story conclusions.

She was redeemed, albeit not absolved, and finally overcame her personal demon of starting down the path to self-forgiveness. The saying, "every ending is a new beginning" has relevance here albeit with a twist to its usual meaning.

Her main purpose, however, wasn't her own story arc which is why they didn't bother to tie it up nicely. It was to provide the main foil for Lyse and to make Lyse question herself and her beliefs when they sometimes matched. They both came from similar pasts, but ended up on opposite sides of almost everything but had striking similarities that Lyse couldn't help but recognize in herself.

To compare: Yotsuyu had two conclusions, one in the original story and one in the later patches. Both of hers had a neat little bow on them, but SE just chose to unwrap Yotsuyu's tidy package one more time and give it a new, darker bow to wrap it up with. She was a foil to Lyse in some ways, but her purpose was more as the main villain for the expansion that is also self-contained to that expansion. Hence the neat little bows.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

She was redeemed, albeit not absolved, and finally overcame her personal demon of starting down the path to self-forgiveness. The saying, "every ending is a new beginning" has relevance here albeit with a twist to its usual meaning.

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As far as I remember, she's rotting in a prison cell and that's where the story leaves her, with many who still want to lynch her. That's not much of a redemption.

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Originally Posted by Edax

As far as I remember, she's rotting in a prison cell and that's where the story leaves her, with many who still want to lynch her. That's not much of a redemption.

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Redemption doesn't have to be public or even acknowledged. It can happen on a personal level. Lyse knows, and that's a significant part of their journeys as foils. I also personally like that Fordola was left as a flawed character without a clear cut ending. It makes her more interesting and the story far more nuanced than if she had been killed off or absolved.

Also, way to bypass the spoiler tags I put up around that. ;)

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Originally Posted by Edax

As far as I remember, she's rotting in a prison cell and that's where the story leaves her, with many who still want to lynch her. That's not much of a redemption.

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someone hasn't gotten their summoner to level 80 i see.

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Originally Posted by Edax

As far as I remember, she's rotting in a prison cell and that's where the story leaves her, with many who still want to lynch her. That's not much of a redemption.

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Tales from the Storm and the LV80 SMN quest give continuation to her story. Not every important story arc takes place in the MSQ, even if the characters started there - and she still might eventually reappear with these side stories just filling in the gaps.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Tales from the Storm and the LV80 SMN quest give continuation to her story. Not every important story arc takes place in the MSQ, even if the characters started there - and she still might eventually reappear with these side stories just filling in the gaps.

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Yes I know that's she in the side content, but again, look where she is on the poster. She's the 2nd biggest person on the poster in a prominent position and she's been shuffled away into outside content and a job story. That speaks to me of bad planning.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yes I know that's she in the side content, but again, look where she is on the poster. She's the 2nd biggest person on the poster in a prominent position and she's been shuffled away into outside content and a job story. That speaks to me of bad planning.

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Frankly, the prominence of the characters on the poster only really speak to their presence in the initial story that is released at the beginning of the expansion and little else. Given that she was mostly a Foil to Lyse in a story sense during Stormblood and Lyse's own prominence in the story faded into the background it's not surprising that Fordola did as well. As Stormblood after 4.1 focused mostly on events in Doma and setting up the plot elements for Shadowbringers ending the Ala Mhigo resolutions fairly early on.

However, the fact that Fordola's is still alive means she has the capability to be brought back to the story to serve a different purpose at some point if the writers choose to do so.

archbishop thordan was at the top of the HW poster and he's dead. so much for your theory lol

I've absolutely always hated this development. I felt like it was bad, lazy writing. There is absolutely no reason "Yda" had to become Lyse except they felt they couldn't write Yda to be what they wanted. They didn't want to introduce "Lyse" as a new character, so instead they repurposed Yda to become Lyse to sort of do a two birds/one stone thing. It has always smacked of very lazy storytelling and it's always bothered me because I actually liked Yda, and I found her dropping literally everything we knew about her (which was never her to begin with, apparently) to "resume" being Lyse was just...weird.

Why the personality change? After pretending to be Yda for years, she just shrugs it off and she's suddenly an entirely different person now?

There's a lot of stuff that bothers me about Lyse beyond this point, but...I liked Yda. There wasn't really any reason Yda needed to be done dirty like that just to bring Lyse in, except it was a lazy rug yank. We already had a relationship with her, and they could avoid putting in more work to build someone else up to use. We're already attached to someone, so let's just repurpose her, I guess.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

archbishop thordan was at the top of the HW poster and he's dead. so much for your theory lol

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His story had a solid conclusion so yeah that confirms my theory. His story, beginning middle and end was told in HW much like Yotsuyu was told in Stormblood. You could argue he wasn't in it enough but he story didn't trail off the MSQ inconclusively.

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Originally Posted by Edax

His story had a solid conclusion so yeah that confirms my theory. His story, beginning middle and end was told in HW much like Yotsuyu was told in Stormblood. You could argue he wasn't in it enough but he story didn't trail off the MSQ inconclusively.

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And Lucia, a minor character at best, has higher billing than all but Alphinaud, Thordan and Haurchefant in that same image, so what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

And Lucia, a minor character at best, has higher billing than all but Alphinaud, Thordan and Haurchefant in that same image, so what's your point?

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In the HW poster, it's Estinien and the Warrior of light who take prominent positions and I'd argue that reflects the story in the HW MSQ. Lucia, a minor character at best, is one of the smallest characters in the background of the poster, reflecting her status. She is smaller than Alphinaud, Thordan and even Haurchefant which again reflects that minor status. But in the Stormblood poster, Lyse and Fordola are the biggest and most prominent characters of that poster, which is not reflective of Stormblood because they weren't the most prominent characters of that story. My point being that they didn't know what they were doing with those characters because they had the greatest advertisement but their characters went nowhere in the MSQ. Lyse is even the star of the Stormblood trailer, but again, her character doesn't really go anywhere and her story have much of a conclusion and she has all but the minorest of cameos in Shadowbringers. When the marketing and the story are at odds, that speaks to me of poor planning.

I don't know if you realize how arbitrary your defense of this strange opinion sounds. I don't even know why it's even important.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Lyse is even the star of the Stormblood trailer, but again, her character doesn't really go anywhere and her story have much of a conclusion and she has all but the minorest of cameos in Shadowbringers. When the marketing and the story are at odds, that speaks to me of poor planning.

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Whether her character development was any good or not, she was still physically the central character of the plot in a starring role from start to finish. I have no idea what her lack of involvement in Shadowbringers has to do with this, because she's not on that poster at all.

She is the central character during 4.0 Stormblood, therefore she is prominent on the poster for 4.0 Stormblood. It does not need to account for her importance in future patches.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Whether her character development was any good or not, she was still physically the central character of the plot in a starring role from start to finish. I have no idea what her lack of involvement in Shadowbringers has to do with this, because she's not on that poster at all.

She is the central character during 4.0 Stormblood, therefore she is prominent on the poster for 4.0 Stormblood. It does not need to account for her importance in future patches.

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Even if she's physically there, I'd argue she wasn't the central character during Stormblood. Her character did have much if any impact or influence on the Stormblood story, her biggest transformation was her job change to a resistance leader but the story would practically be identical if Conrad was still in charge of Ala Mhigo Resistance/Military. Despite all her screen time, she had the equivalent impact on Stormblood as a background character, hence my opinion that the marketing and story are at odds.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Even if she's physically there, I'd argue she wasn't the central character during Stormblood. Her character did have much if any impact or influence on the Stormblood story, her biggest transformation was her job change to a resistance leader but the story would practically be identical if Conrad was still in charge of Ala Mhigo Resistance/Military. Despite all her screen time, she had the equivalent impact on Stormblood as a background character, hence my opinion that the marketing and story are at odds.

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You can opinionate all you like about Lyse's value to the story, but the fact is:

1. She is intended to be the main character and presented as such within the game.
2. She is displayed prominently on the poster as you would expect a main character to be displayed.

Those two facts are consistent with each other.

Was she a good main character? That's opinion. But the game creators aren't going to keep their intended main character off the poster just because it turns out in the long term of the game that she was a weak and unpopular character who didn't have the impact they wanted her to have. They can't retroactively remove her from the marketing for the section of the game in which she is prominent.

"What the story would be like if Conrad was still in charge" is irrelevant because that didn't happen. Lyse became the leader and was featured in the story as such.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You can opinionate all you like about Lyse's value to the story, but the fact is:

1. She is intended to be the main character and presented as such within the game.
2. She is displayed prominently on the poster as you would expect a main character to be displayed.

Those two facts are consistent with each other.

Was she a good main character? That's opinion. But the game creators aren't going to keep their intended main character off the poster just because it turns out in the long term of the game that she was a weak and unpopular character who didn't have the impact they wanted her to have. They can't retroactively remove her from the marketing for the section of the game in which she is prominent.

"What the story would be like if Conrad was still in charge" is irrelevant because that didn't happen. Lyse became the leader and was featured in the story as such.

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But she's not a main character. If Lyse were not even in the story, it remains practically identical. If Lyse isn't there when you first go to Ala Mhigo, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when you visit the Far East, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when Zenos "kills" himself, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there to take charge of the Resistance, nothing significant changes. Is Lyse a distinct enough character to make a decision as leader that Conrad or M'naago wouldn't do? I would argue no. In HW, Estinien had a significant impact on the plot, he was the villian for a good portion of it. In Shadowbringers, the Crystal Exarch had a significant impact on the plot, in fact the entire premise of the story wouldn't exist without him. Main character typically are very important to the plot. Luke going from farmer to Jedi was very important for Star Wars, you couldn't even have Return of the Jedi without his job change. You can't say the same for Lyse.

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Originally Posted by Edax

But she's not a main character.

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She is an ineffective main character. That does not make her "not a main character".

But I'm clearly wasting my time here.

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Originally Posted by Edax

But she's not a main character. If Lyse were not even in the story, it remains practically identical. If Lyse isn't there when you first go to Ala Mhigo, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when you visit the Far East, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when Zenos "kills" himself, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there to take charge of the Resistance, nothing significant changes. Is Lyse a distinct enough character to make a decision as leader that Conrad or M'naago wouldn't do? I would argue no. In HW, Estinien had a significant impact on the plot, he was the villian for a good portion of it. In Shadowbringers, the Crystal Exarch had a significant impact on the plot, in fact the entire premise of the story wouldn't exist without him. Main character typically are very important to the plot. Luke going from farmer to Jedi was very important for Star Wars, you couldn't even have Return of the Jedi without his job change. You can't say the same for Lyse.

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Frankly, I understand that people may not like Lyse but she is as close to a main character that 4.0 had. Stormblood suffered the same problem as Realm Reborn did from a story context. The need to relay a lot of information, introduce a lot of locations and people very quickly. Anytime they have to do that is always a difficulty with characterization and Lyse just kind of reflects that.

They did tend to use her to drive points of frustration, anxiety, and uncertainty about the war and what the right things to do where. The things she was involved with did drive the direction in the story in certain ways, it just wasn't the most impactful method. I mean if Lyse is not the Main Character of Stormblood, then I'd have a hard time pinning down a Main Character at all.

It's certainly not the Warrior of Light because outside of the conflict with Zenos, the Warrior of Light more than any other expansion just kind of pointed at things that need to die, this only changed in later on in the Expansion when elements of Shadowbringers began to come into play.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

Frankly, I understand that people may not like Lyse but she is as close to a main character that 4.0 had. Stormblood suffered the same problem as Realm Reborn did from a story context. The need to relay a lot of information, introduce a lot of locations and people very quickly. Anytime they have to do that is always a difficulty with characterization and Lyse just kind of reflects that.

They did tend to use her to drive points of frustration, anxiety, and uncertainty about the war and what the right things to do where. The things she was involved with did drive the direction in the story in certain ways, it just wasn't the most impactful method. I mean if Lyse is not the Main Character of Stormblood, then I'd have a hard time pinning down a Main Character at all.

It's certainly not the Warrior of Light because outside of the conflict with Zenos, the Warrior of Light more than any other expansion just kind of pointed at things that need to die, this only changed in later on in the Expansion when elements of Shadowbringers began to come into play.

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Stormblood's plot is muddled overall with very little focus. Even though the Warrior of Light got far less focus in Stormblood then in HW or ShB, I think the WoL is the central character of Stormblood. Thinking back, the big climax involved Zeno's rivalry with the WoL and all the plots involving the rebellions all lead to that climax. The Warrior of Light ends up having a large impact on the Stormblood plot because it focuses so heavily on Zenos and all Zenos cares about in the end is the Warrior of Light. Zenos can't function without the WoL so the WoL character ends up indispensable to the plot.

Imagine if Zenos had his rivalry with Lyse instead, what that would do for her importance as a character and to the story. Estinien had Nidhogg and the Crystal Exarch had Emet to some extent given their opposing masterplans.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Stormblood's plot is muddled overall with very little focus. Even though the Warrior of Light got far less focus in Stormblood then in HW or ShB, I think the WoL is the central character of Stormblood. Thinking back, the big climax involved Zeno's rivalry with the WoL and all the plots involving the rebellions all lead to that climax. The Warrior of Light ends up having a large impact on the Stormblood plot because it focuses so heavily on Zenos and all Zenos cares about in the end is the Warrior of Light. Zenos can't function without the WoL so the WoL character ends up indispensable to the plot.

Imagine if Zenos had his rivalry with Lyse instead, what that would do for her importance as a character and to the story. Estinien had Nidhogg and the Crystal Exarch had Emet to some extent given their opposing masterplans.

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Oddly enough when I played through Stormblood, my mind separates the WoL/Zeno fight from the War side of the effort mostly due to a sheer difference in the motivation between the characters in the story.

The War effort itself keeps the Warrior of Light fairly reattached from the events itself as merely an actor in the story, even with the Warrior of Lights direct involvement, there isn't very much personally at stake in the conflicts of Ala Mhigo or Doma for the Warrior of Light compared to say Heavensward or Shadowbringers where the outcome had a level of personal stake. The War effort is the story of characters like Lyse, Conrad, Hien, Yugiri, and Gotestu then it is the Scions or the Warrior of Light that are there to support their allies, their friends, and to address the continuing conflict.

The more personal element, the rivalry between the Warrior of Light and Zenos were less about the war effort itself and more on how the Zenos kind of a Dark Reflection of the Warrior of Light, the representation of what someone like the WoL could be if they lack the moral and compassion to not become absolute monsters. Zenos, as far of the war efforts, doesn't actually care about any of it as its simply a means to his own ends and will manipulate anyone he feels will get them there. Being defeated once already, the WoL agrees to Yugiri's rather crazy plan only to lose again. It seems more about the WoL proving to themselves that their ways are correct and being strong doesn't mean becoming like Zenos.

The only thing that really unites these two aspects is that defeating Zenos basically resolves both elements. I admit this most my own interpretation of how I observed the story the first time I played through it. So, I suppose in my view Stormblood is less about a central group of character but rather smaller character groups that come into focus as needed with the Warrior of Light remaining the PoV character for anything that is not immediately related to the Zenos rivalry stuff. That's probably why it tends to feel unfocused at times.

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Originally Posted by Edax

But she's not a main character. If Lyse were not even in the story, it remains practically identical. If Lyse isn't there when you first go to Ala Mhigo, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when you visit the Far East, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when Zenos "kills" himself, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there to take charge of the Resistance, nothing significant changes. Is Lyse a distinct enough character to make a decision as leader that Conrad or M'naago wouldn't do? I would argue no. In HW, Estinien had a significant impact on the plot, he was the villian for a good portion of it. In Shadowbringers, the Crystal Exarch had a significant impact on the plot, in fact the entire premise of the story wouldn't exist without him. Main character typically are very important to the plot. Luke going from farmer to Jedi was very important for Star Wars, you couldn't even have Return of the Jedi without his job change. You can't say the same for Lyse.

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This is wrong. Play through again.

At Rhalgr's Reach when the Imperials storm the place and she staves off Fordola, this is what rouses Zenos to actually participate in combat. This leads to his first confrontation with the WoL, and his subsequent withdrawal of his troops. Though it's subtle, her one sided combat with Zenos indirectly stops the Resistance from being snuffed out right then and there. Had Zenos grown bored before the WoL arrived, he would have departed.

Then she travels with the WoL to the Far East, and her next major event aside from beating up that Namazu swindler, is to stave off the Red Kojin alongside Alisae so that the WoL can fight Susano without interference.

Then she meets and relates with the Domans, helping them come up with the will to throw off their shackles, though she takes a side seat after every person on the WoL's team prove themselves at Bardaam's Mettle. She was second to complete the Yol taming trial btw.

After Hien's arc, when we're back in Ala Mhigan territory she picks up again, rallying her own country men. Her beastmen blessing lets her come with us to open the gates to the residential area. Then she fights Fordola with us, LB3ing her, instrumental in that victory.

After the main portion of the MSQ, Arenvald and the WoL would have failed to stop the tempering of the diplomats if not for her freeing Fordola. Decisions M'naago and Conrad would not have made, given their emotional feelings towards, "The Butcher."

Lyse was a big deal, she just didn't come off that way.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

This is wrong. Play through again.

At Rhalgr's Reach when the Imperials storm the place and she staves off Fordola, this is what rouses Zenos to actually participate in combat. This leads to his first confrontation with the WoL, and his subsequent withdrawal of his troops. Though it's subtle, her one sided combat with Zenos indirectly stops the Resistance from being snuffed out right then and there. Had Zenos grown bored before the WoL arrived, he would have departed.

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Anyone else could have done that.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Then she travels with the WoL to the Far East, and her next major event aside from beating up that Namazu swindler, is to stave off the Red Kojin alongside Alisae so that the WoL can fight Susano without interference.

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Anyone else could have done that.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Then she meets and relates with the Domans, helping them come up with the will to throw off their shackles, though she takes a side seat after every person on the WoL's team prove themselves at Bardaam's Mettle. She was second to complete the Yol taming trial btw.

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Anyone else could have done that. Everyone in the Scions was pro-Resist and Alisaie was a real firebrand and could have stepped in if Lyse wasn't there.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

After Hien's arc, when we're back in Ala Mhigan territory she picks up again, rallying her own country men. Her beastmen blessing lets her come with us to open the gates to the residential area. Then she fights Fordola with us, LB3ing her, instrumental in that victory.

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The beastman blessing is not unique to her and theoretically anyone could be given that, even Thancred. And if Lyse wasn't there Conrad or M'Naggo could have rallied their own countrymen.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

After the main portion of the MSQ, Arenvald and the WoL would have failed to stop the tempering of the diplomats if not for her freeing Fordola. Decisions M'naago and Conrad would not have made, given their emotional feelings towards, "The Butcher."

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I don't recall M'naago voicing an opinion on Fordola, but then again it's been awhile since I went through the story.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Anyone else could have done that.

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They didn't. Lyse did.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Anyone else could have done that.

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They didn't. Lyse did.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Anyone else could have done that.

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They didn't. Lyse did.

Repeating your argument over and over doesn't make it right, and I'm not just talking about those quotes from the last post. We get it. You don't like Lyse as a character for umpteen reasons. You're not alone. Lots of people don't think she's a good main character. But she is the main character. Period. Claiming that she's not the main character just makes you look crazy-pants.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

They didn't. Lyse did.



They didn't. Lyse did.



They didn't. Lyse did.

Repeating your argument over and over doesn't make it right, and I'm not just talking about those quotes from the last post. We get it. You don't like Lyse as a character for umpteen reasons. You're not alone. Lots of people don't think she's a good main character. But she is the main character. Period. Claiming that she's not the main character just makes you look crazy-pants.

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Just because Lyse has a participation ribbon doesn't make her the main character. The Warrior of Light was there the entire time and was more involved in the plot and actually had the antagonist's attention whereas conversely the antagonist didn't care about Lyse, the one you you claim as a main character. If Lyse was supposed to be the central character then the writing is even worse because the Antagonist barely acknowledges her, at the climax where he is defeated, Lyse's words barely even register for him, he may as well just be monologuing solely to the Warrior of Light. Again, what difference what it be if Lyse wasn't even there at the climax? Zenos dialogue don't even have to change during his final speech apart from the word "meaningless?"

[Lyse and Alphinaud run in.]

[Somehow, Zenos is not dead. He drags himself to his feet, spitting blood, and reaches for his sword.]

Zenos Yae Galvus: Hah…hah…hah… The hunter has indeed become the hunted.

Zenos Yae Galvus: And yet…there is only joy. Transcendent joy that I have never known. How invigorating, how…pure, this feeling.

Zenos Yae Galvus: Meaningless? Men die that others may live. Those who survive are stronger for it.

Zenos Yae Galvus: Not that you could ever understand. To have stood upon this great stage of fools…to have played my part to perfection…

Zenos Yae Galvus: Oh, this…this moment…let it be enshrined in eternity. My heart…beating out of time… So clear, so vivid, so real… So real.

Okay, there's no arguing with stupid. You're being added to the ignore list then. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

I don't know if you realize how arbitrary your defense of this strange opinion sounds.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

you look crazy-pants.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Okay, there's no arguing with stupid. You're being added to the ignore list then.

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I was growing tired of your personal attacks anyway.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Anyone else could have done that.

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Oh yeah, sure, anyone else could have done that... except, no. No they could not have, since it's canonical that Lyse is stronger and more proficient in combat than all of the other people you mention by several degrees.

Also your logic on comparing the WoL to Lyse in regards to main character is kind of obtuse. The WoL is always central, that's part of the way FFXIV's story is framed, to make the player feel special. In regards to being a central NPC, Lyse very much is so, and that decision is always 100% arbitrary at time of writing, give or take some foreshadowing. The side characters always take a backseat and less meaningful role with regards to the main villain of the story arcs. Starting in ARR with Gaius van Baelsar. No other NPCs around, WoL central.

Heavensward with the evil pope trope villain. WoL central. NPCs sidelined.

Stormblood. WoL Central. NPCs sidelined, but present at the time of his demise, for the first time.

Shadowbringers. WoL Central. NPCs actively participate in villain's demise for the first time. Still sidelined.

You're fine to prattle on about Lyse being unimportant or replaceable, but truth is, she's not. She fills the role they've written for her, and when you put other people into that role, they'd have to write other characters to fill places they already had mapped out. The argument you present, as you present it, could be applied to literally any character in any work of fiction, "Yeah someone else coulda done this and maybe even done it better!" but that's not the point. They write in reasoning to for why they have characters take certain actions, and it generally ties into their past characterization. It's part of the direction the devs want things to go. You're fine to think she's a bad character, and that it's bad writing, but your argument about interchangeability has no weight.