It'd make them more usable outside of emergency scenarios and downtime. It could lead to MP being a more interactive part of healers' kits instead of just... Being there, like Accuracy.
The GCD cost could be removed by:
Having a damage return for the lost GCD
The on-demand spells being cast from a pet
The on-demand spells being oGCD instead of GCD.
Thanks for reading.
Remove the GCD cost from on-demand healing.
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06-08-2020, 02:22 AMYusiKhaRemove the GCD cost from on-demand healing.
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06-10-2020, 02:20 AMEaMettNot exactly sure hat you mean by on-demand healing? It's not like oGCDs aren't on-demand, it's not like pet heals aren't on-demand. So it's a little confusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
Technically all the points you said you wanted are already in place in the game right now. Almost all healing can be done without GCDs. -
06-10-2020, 02:24 AMSide-Eye
Sorry but if Yoshi and co. have any real intentions to make healing the primary focus of a job, the CONTENT will change to make healing 1) less predictable, 2) more frequent, and 3) more demanding. Until then, the cost of keeping a party healed is absolutely trivial. (And begs for more creative uses of that mana potential as green dps.)
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06-10-2020, 07:04 AMYusiKhaGCD healing then. Spells with an MP cost. Always available, no timers or gauge requirement. Always there. On Demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
While I understand the sentiment, I also ask of you to realise that with our fixed party composition (2T/2H/4D) only 1/4 of the group is forced to care about the healing requirements, with the rest only roped in for heavy hits and lethal raidwides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Side-Eye
Healing checks aren't fun for non-healers, and why allocate masses more resources and changing the fundamentals of the encounter design when you can instead keep to designing major mechanics that all 8 players participate in, and minor mechanics for each role's niche. -
06-10-2020, 08:27 AMPayotzI'm pretty sure this is in the game in a sense through abilities like Mantra and Reprisal.Quote:
Healing checks aren't fun for non-healers, and why allocate masses more resources and changing the fundamentals of the encounter design when you can instead keep to designing major mechanics that all 8 players participate in, and minor mechanics for each role's niche.
In certain content, the healers won't have enough mitigation abilities to use for party busters many times in a row, so the tanks and the dps needs to do their part in mitigation. The main problem is that most content, including Savage (except maybe the last floor of the tier) doesn't need it.
If they reintroduce the utility that's been gutted from the roles (Palisade, Refresh, Convalescene, Eye for an Eye, Mana shift etc...) and then make most content a lot harder to the point that people will need to learn how to use utility to clear, then that would force all 8 players to share in the responsibility in not just healchecks, but tankbusters as well as DPS.
But if that happens, 90% of the playerbase wouldn't be able to clear Normal raids so eh. -
06-10-2020, 08:19 PMKokonji
I'm genuinely not quite get what you want, is it to :
remove all mp cost on healing spell so only dps spell has mp cost ?
or :
have a dps skill based on how many heals you done (which is whm blood lily gimmick, but now on all healer)
or :
make all healer has a healing pet (so basically take sch identity, and slap them to all healer)
or :
make all healing spell ogcd (that make healer is more like green dps than it is now)
? -
06-11-2020, 12:05 AMYusiKhaI want to be able to use the most basic of my healing tools without sacrificing DPS uptime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokonji
I want the game to subconciously teach new players, from the very start, that DPSing is free and that you should be doing it all the time.
Every other role teaches that, since Tank Stances don't cost damage any more, and healers are expected to DPS anyway. May as well have the game teach you, not someone in Duty Finder yelling at you for standing AFK between Cure 1 casts. -
06-11-2020, 03:47 AMKirika-
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06-13-2020, 11:34 AMKleeya
Next step : can we get rid of all healing ogcds and get a lvl 1 passive skill "you now heal, rez and buff yourself and your team members for a part of the damages you inflict on the ennemies" ? Because healing ogcds are getting in the way of using AST cards or chain stratagem for more dps.
Irony aside, healers who dont want to dps will just continue to do so even if all healing skills becomes ogcds. Instead of yelling at them for being afk between two cure 1 gcds, you will yell at them for being afk between two cure 1 ogcds XD -
06-15-2020, 06:11 PMSlopranoIf I get you correctly, then it's tossing off the reigns of cooldowns and make us stand around a cast a bit more, and more varied, and not just always have a cooldown for everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
In case you haven't seen it, I would recommend taking a trip down revision history for the Arcanist and Scholar wiki entries for 2016. Where we had what you are describing: Spells on mp cost. Always available, no timers or gauges. Always there.
Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, Miasma 2, Aero? No cooldown, only gcd.
Bane? 10 seconds.
Shadowflare? 3s cast, no cooldown.
Cleric stance? 5s cooldown when you enter it.
Physick, Adlo, Succor? Either weak and cheap, or powerful and expensive. Always there.
Pet hotbar? Embrace usable all the time every time.
Sustain? 1s cast, gcd.
Ruin and ruin 2? Your boilerplate or Blind-inducer.
Just those above? Those couple skills with barely any cooldown, but gave you something to ALWAYS have something to do? It made the job.
What cooldows there were not even that long:
Virus? 1 min.
Aetherflow? 1 min
Rouse? 90s
E4E? 180s.
Then we enter Heavensward and you can see SE start experimenting with oGCD cooldowns and Broil substance abuse:
Indom, Deployment tactics, Emergency Tactics, Dissipation. Four out of five new spells were oGCDs.
But that wasn't a problem: because we already had spells that cost no mp, always available, no timers or gauge requirements. So cooldowns enhanced the job. I remember every single GCD and Aetherflow I wanted to press was at odds: Can Embrace cover it or do I need to Adlo instead of refreshing a dot? How long until I need the next shield? There are 30s until Aetherflow refresh, I have one stack left, do I wanna chance it on Bane or should I keep one for Lustrate?
But now cooldowns IS the job.
It really brings the old adage "Netflix healers" to mind. Not just because they could get away with it, but because it was such low effort and so boring one COULD finish an entire movie or half a season of Dark when doing your daily routine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeya
That neither the application of healing, with hypothetical fun and rewarding unique job mechanices, or the act of doing damage, with imaginary amusing and captivating exclusive features on the job, is in place when repeating the exact same steps then boredom will set in. And it is when we get bored we find ways to entertain ourselves so time goes faster. Entertain ourselves when playing a piece of entertainment. -
06-15-2020, 11:15 PMYusiKhaI'm not sure you understand. I just want to be able to use GCD Heals without sacrificing the DPS from the lost Glare/Broil/Malefic so that healing (our job) never interrupts dealing damage (also our job).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloprano
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06-16-2020, 01:27 AMEclipse12187I have a couple questions then, how do you propose we do it? Do glare and broil get the malefic treatment (1.5s cast time), does whm get a ruin 2 equivalent? Do they make our nukes instant cast so we can weave in those now ogcd heals? Since they’re ogcd do they have a cooldown? Do they still cost mp or another resource?Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
If our healing spells don’t have some cost to them whether it’s time gated or mp/resource gated then every fight becomes a solo heal fight and endgame becomes who can solo heal while also dealing the most damage. Like others have also said this won’t stop bad healers from standing there mashing their ogcd heals and not dealing any damage either, that comes from a drive to get better, to play better. And for some it’s more they don’t have the experience or confidence to handle dps while healing. -
06-16-2020, 02:45 AMYusiKhaWhite Mage:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipse12187
Lily Gauge and Water 1 gained at level 2 alongside Cure.
Lilies are now generated every time you cast Cure(1/2/3), Regen, Medica(1/2). Can hold 1 max (2 with Mend and Maim at 20, 3 with M&M at 40)
Water 1 is instant cast, deals double Stone 1 damage, requires a Lily. Water is upgraded alongside Stone, eventually turning into Afflatus Misery with Glare.
Scholar:
Eos and Selene's actions would return to being independently cast from the SCH's, with an emphasis placed on response time
Fey Gauge is now a measure of the MP that you've sacrificed to the Fairy via an oGCD action (or maybe make the Aetherflow skill cost MP instead of granting? Either way the important part is that you're funneling MP into the fairy through dps-neutral mechanics)
Eos and Selene now get gauge spenders that act as physik, adlo, succor, etc. with 2s recast times
Astrologian:
Make them oGCDs with 2s recast times.
Next Healer:
Probably a combination of all 3. If we get a tech-based healer, it could be enhanced bullets and reloads mimicing WHM, a temporary dispencer placable mimicing SCH, and oGCDs like AST.
I never said to remove the MP cost from healing. I'd actually remove the MP cost from DPSing (or at least reduce it to an insignificant amount like 50-200 or something) and increase the cost of healing spells. That way the cost of DPSing will be consistently low, and place MP's emphasis entirely on healing actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipse12187
I'd replace Lucid Dreaming with a Role action called 'Focus' or some such - it would be a mana regeneration GCD without any kind of refund. So the damage cost of healing turns from mismanaged cooldowns to mismanaged MP.
oGCDs could interact with MP as well, decreasing or increasing regeneration rate to give them a phantom 'cost' or ways of interacting with themselves. -
06-16-2020, 01:37 PMLyth
There should always be an opportunity cost for healing. The sheer amount of oGCD healing and barriers that we have access to trivialises things as it is. If healing isn't about resource management, and if it isn't about knowing how to maximise your damage output while still successfully keeping everyone alive, then what's the challenge in being a healer? Anyone can do it then.
Just give everyone potions without recasts, let them heal themselves, and let healers be dps with a one button rotation. Then you can feel happy about your numbers without having to work for them. -
06-16-2020, 06:00 PMSlopranoThen maybe something more akin to Chloromancer is the closest of already existing rpg jobs. Something I could see very well work here aswell: Where the general idea is the more you do damage the more you healer and comes with the limitations of being reliant on having party members (Chocobo?) around for various tethers for healing and mana regen. But also have fun stuff life constant damage leeching to the party and a debuff on an enemy and that enemy's next attack will heal their target for 200% of what the damage was. It would be a fun anti-tankbuster.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
While WHM seem to have cornered the market on Lilies I think we could make room for a Chloromancer, say it's from a Garlean region of gardeners and being shit at magic find some way to to manipulate greens and growth of plants, going with the Roman theme, call it "Phytologist". Which at first was made for making it easier to grow and splice plants, the Empire naturally found a way to weaponize it.
I could envision a ton of fun with something like this: Constant leeching effect going on so one need to keep up the attacks to heal. Take root, both on self and party member's buffs, that the longer you can stand in place the more the buff grows. Chow down on seeds to grow thorn spikes, barkskin, transform arms into wood logs for melee attacks, get a sprout on top of your head with a little mini-game for growth until it's in full bloom with various effects like healing, damage or various debuffs.
From the word "go" you learn that damage = healing, so no mp bar. For when the boss fucks off can have something similar to Dissipation or use HP, tap into and cripple yourself for when you need some emergency healing. -
06-17-2020, 01:32 PMEaMettThis. I just don't understand why you would ever want to remove the DPS cost from GCD heals. Also, while we're at it. You hardly need GCD heals in the game in the first place. Though that might be some circular reasoning, dunno, it's late and my brain is hazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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06-17-2020, 04:21 PMMansion100% agree. That's one of the few little things I enjoy that remain in healing, the decision making. What do I have available, what do I need to heal and when? Being able to virtually have two GCDs happening at the same time, one for DPS and one for healing trivializes healing even more. And It would make DPS GCD uptime event less challenging. It's just plain getting rid of the only interesting dynamic in current healing for no reason, I don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I know WoW has like oGCDs you can use while casting spells, so it's potentially interesting to see this added in FFXIV somehow, but otherwise I don't see the point -
06-17-2020, 09:12 PMRilifaneAbsolutely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
The opportunity costs need to stay unless they find another way to make healing really engaging and add decision making. The most interesting part about healing right now is using your oGCDs in a way that lets you get away with minimal (if any) GCD healing. Planning ahead, learning damage patterns, experimenting with how little healing you can get away with so your oGCDs are enough. And in 8man cnotent, taking into account the way your co-healer's toolkit works adds another layer.
During ARR and HW it was arguably much more difficult to push dps as healer and it was still, for the most part, the norm. And that was when one misclick on cleric stance could really screw you over.
Dpsing on healer is easier than ever but if people don't want to, you won't be able to make them just by making it even easier. Hell, I have seen people in WoW spec out of talents that encouraged dpsing on discipline priest even though that was the whole point of this particular healer.
People already get taught to dps by HoN and other players if they really can't think for themselves that standing around and idle for 30sec in a pull isn't really productive. No need to dump down healer gameplay even more to get the most stubborn "I'm a healer, I want to heal!" people to dps. -
06-18-2020, 01:15 AMKabooaSee, on the other side of the fence here, it's a damning facet of their design philosophy that there is no healer for those players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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06-18-2020, 01:42 AMPayadopaI think you are confusing a DPS who heals with a healer who DPS. It's your job to heal first and DPS second.Quote:
Originally Posted by YusiKha
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06-18-2020, 01:48 AMIreniaI don't think that is possible unless this game creates an environment where "greeding" for DPS is discouraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Part of Ultimate's difficulty is the sheer length of the fight; wiping towards the end means going through 10+ minutes of content that demands mechanical and DPS focus. Indeed, it's that time investment that is the key. You need look no further than the fixed party sections of the Deep Dungeons to see this in action. Pushing DPS is less important than staying alive, so I was less likely to DPS when the monsters were taking serious chunks out of the tank, since wiping means losing hours of progress.
But this game is structured for casual play, so most content will not attack your time like that, so people greed for DPS to push their limits, and if they overshoot, they get up and try again. So healers who wish to improve do the same. -
06-18-2020, 01:51 AMRilifaneWhile unfortunate, that's how the game is designed. You have MMOs without designated healers, you have MMOs where healers are pure healers (something that is just as poorly received by players who want to do more than watch HP bars as dpsing by players who DO want to spent their whole time watching HP bars) and you have FFXIV where you have designated healers who have so much downtime that it's reasonable to dps during downtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Besides, nobody keeps them from not dpsing in casual content. They should be prepared for people to speak up because idling most of the fight over dpsing is not exactly productive and received well by other players but they are not forced to do anything and people are understanding if you're new and it seems too risky for you yet.
This thread is about basically shoving "you have to dps" down their throat. At least right now you still have some semblance of decision making that could justify not dpsing. -
06-18-2020, 09:36 AMNobleWinterI understand why Tank, Healer, and DPS exist as roles but the functions are shared by everyone in every role and I feel like if the player base understood that aggro and damage mitigation is a group effort just like DPS and healing we would all be enjoy the game more. Healer DPS may not be "mandatory" in low level content but I've been in plenty of groups where my healer DPS was the difference between a clear or a wipe. This applies to unsynced trials as well where we should be so overpowered a healer isn't even necessary but multiple people failing mechanics means beating enrage by a hair. We should all want to use every skill we can to help our party progress and in that light healing and DPS are the same; tools to help your party succeed and that's how they should be labeled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payadopa
I saw a healer use Repose for the first time in a dungeon a few days ago EFFECTIVELY and it blew my mind. They had a macro that targeted a caster type enemy, standing at a distance as they always do, that the tank lost control of and marked it with the Red Ignore Symbol while simultaneously telling the party to ignore that target until the tank grabbed aggro in chat with one of those attention grabbing sound effects. The enemy was put to sleep for 30 seconds giving the tank enough time to read the message and grab the mob without anyone dieing to it. It was amazing and exhilarating to see it happen and it reminded me that we share responsibilities. The healer mitigated damage and helped direct aggro with a skill that did no healing. Would a pure healer have done that? Maybe not, but a great healer did and we should all strive to be great healers by using our toolkits to the full and that's what the game should push us to do.