Can we get incentives to be good people? I see this turning into FFXI

I could have said "Could we get incentives?" but people would think I was asking for something stupidly easy and feel a little uncomfortable about the real thing I"m asking, which is that we get an incentive to be good people.

I was born selfish but also social, like most people.

I think there's one type of person in this world that is truly unselfish, the type of person that works in the medical profession. If you do, props to you because you actually care enough about other people to devote all of your time to it.

For the rest of us, let me just recount some stories from FFXI:

CoP (Airship) (Fight) (Do You Need It?) (Help me out!)

Since I started FFXI @ TOAU I shouted this for 2 years and out of that 2 years I got to attempt the fight about 5 different times before people quit from losing it. When I finally did complete it, it was only because a player was eager to measure his e-peen with the new level cap of 80 or 85. In other words, I was stuck on progression for years and "quit" the game several times thanks to that system.

(Really time-consuming mission that I already did and will probably wipe at for hours because these new people don't know how to do it, and for which there is absolutely no reward for me) (Help me out!)

I shouted about a CoP mission but I have a feeling this is how my shout appeared on their screen.

(Job AF Quest that I already did 3 times for close friends, which I have absolutely no motivation to do and is now being shouted by a stranger) (Help me out!)

(Task that requires me to spend 45 minutes traveling and waiting on other people to show, spend my gil to get there, receive a durability penalty for wiping with the group until they learn the fight, which they may never be skilled enough to learn, and having to use my own gil and dark matter to repair) (Can I have it?) (Help me out!) 1/8

Okay I've made my point. For a certain amount of time after new content is released, like Zilart, CoP, TOAU, AF quests, etc, people are in a race to do it right away and it's easy to swim downstream. After a while the current dries up and all that's left is a few stragglers. I was a straggler in FFXI because I started late, and I'm turning into a jaded douche in FFXIV already because I started early.

What's the incentive to help stragglers in this game? Where is the incentive for me to put my hard earned gil, time, experience, and leadership forth to some straggler or noob when I'm having a consuming enough time using my play time toward progression with drop rates that are intentionally low? Let me spell it out for you. I'm never going to help anyone unless it's a close friend or I like their name or something random, they seem extra nice, or I'm really bored (why would I be logged in then?). And let's not kid ourselves. That's what's been going on in FFXI for 8 years or more. No case study needed.

This was one of the biggest flaws in FFXI and it's looks like no one's noticed that it's going to lock people out of FFXIV. Yes, I'm talking purely about the job quests. There are people that already have to wait an agonizingly long time to do them and they've only been out for a couple weeks. It's going to get much worse as time goes on.

Fortunately, I don't come to ask questions but also to present answers.

Not to get too intellectual about it, but games like WoW don't have this problem since the only group-progression requirements are obsolete through planning with every new patch. Old group content is experienced primarily through the Achievement system in that game, and guess what? Massive amounts of people go through that old content just for the "badge". I really like FFXI's / FFXIV's adventurous group-restricted content. I think it's a great strength for the game to have it, but a great weakness also because it alienates too many customers and forces them to quit the game.

My answer is simple. There should be a reward system that automatically keeps track of completed quest objectives, done in a full group, and the only condition is that someone in the group got the win for the first time. In that condition, a point is created which can be redeemed for something valuable. That's it. One simple change that will turn all of the Selfish Bastards of Eorzea into Kind Caring Doctors With Good Bedside Manner.

You're welcome dev team. If you want me to get more specific I'll be glad to.

Aw, who am I kidding they don't even read the English forum.

Although the post was a little rough I totally agree. I think giving people a badge might help motivate others to participate in "old" content. However, so far it's been my experience that everyone is very friendly and helped where they could. I do remember FFXI though and not being able to finish content. That was a bummer.

I remember playing FFXI for the first time ever two months ago... people wouldn't even speak to me. That game was so hard!

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I could have said "Could we get incentives?" but people would think I was asking for something stupidly easy and feel a little uncomfortable about the real thing I"m asking, which is that we get an incentive to be good people.

I was born selfish but also social, like most people.

I think there's one type of person in this world that is truly unselfish, the type of person that works in the medical profession. If you do, props to you because you actually care enough about other people to devote all of your time to it.

For the rest of us, let me just recount some stories from FFXI:

CoP (Airship) (Fight) (Do You Need It?) (Help me out!)

Since I started FFXI @ TOAU I shouted this for 2 years and out of that 2 years I got to attempt the fight about 5 different times before people quit from losing it. When I finally did complete it, it was only because a player was eager to measure his e-peen with the new level cap of 80 or 85. In other words, I was stuck on progression for years and "quit" the game several times thanks to that system.

(Really time-consuming mission that I already did and will probably wipe at for hours because these new people don't know how to do it, and for which there is absolutely no reward for me) (Help me out!)

I shouted about a CoP mission but I have a feeling this is how my shout appeared on their screen.

(Job AF Quest that I already did 3 times for close friends, which I have absolutely no motivation to do and is now being shouted by a stranger) (Help me out!)

(Task that requires me to spend 45 minutes traveling and waiting on other people to show, spend my gil to get there, receive a durability penalty for wiping with the group until they learn the fight, which they may never be skilled enough to learn, and having to use my own gil and dark matter to repair) (Can I have it?) (Help me out!) 1/8

Okay I've made my point. For a certain amount of time after new content is released, like Zilart, CoP, TOAU, AF quests, etc, people are in a race to do it right away and it's easy to swim downstream. After a while the current dries up and all that's left is a few stragglers. I was a straggler in FFXI because I started late, and I'm turning into a jaded douche in FFXIV already because I started early.

What's the incentive to help stragglers in this game? Where is the incentive for me to put my hard earned gil, time, experience, and leadership forth to some straggler or noob when I'm having a consuming enough time using my play time toward progression with drop rates that are intentionally low? Let me spell it out for you. I'm never going to help anyone unless it's a close friend or I like their name or something random, they seem extra nice, or I'm really bored (why would I be logged in then?). And let's not kid ourselves. That's what's been going on in FFXI for 8 years or more. No case study needed.

This was one of the biggest flaws in FFXI and it's looks like no one's noticed that it's going to lock people out of FFXIV. Yes, I'm talking purely about the job quests. There are people that already have to wait an agonizingly long time to do them and they've only been out for a couple weeks. It's going to get much worse as time goes on.

Fortunately, I don't come to ask questions but also to present answers.

Not to get too intellectual about it, but games like WoW don't have this problem since the only group-progression requirements are obsolete through planning with every new patch. Old group content is experienced primarily through the Achievement system in that game, and guess what? Massive amounts of people go through that old content just for the "badge". I really like FFXI's / FFXIV's adventurous group-restricted content. I think it's a great strength for the game to have it, but a great weakness also because it alienates too many customers and forces them to quit the game.

My answer is simple. There should be a reward system that automatically keeps track of completed quest objectives, done in a full group, and the only condition is that someone in the group got the win for the first time. In that condition, a point is created which can be redeemed for something valuable. That's it. One simple change that will turn all of the Selfish Bastards of Eorzea into Kind Caring Doctors With Good Bedside Manner.

You're welcome dev team. If you want me to get more specific I'll be glad to.

Aw, who am I kidding they don't even read the English forum.

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I enjoyed that, Thanks ^^

Yeah at this point in XIV so many people have already completed "this that and the other" that shouting for [pick a quest] can take hours. Of course in this, like in XI if you have a decent linkshell it shouldn't be that hard to get a group together for w/e. If people in your shell[s] don't help, or you aren't willing to help them somethings wrong.

With that said, I do think it'd be a good thing to try to keep old players willing to help complete strangers, and if rewards are the way, then let's get rewards. As a person that can't put in 8~12 hrs a day I fall behind a fair amnt, even friends that started after me have managed to pass me at this point. It's a little sad actually.

Not to mention now the start of my weekend get stuff done time is ????-blocked by maintenance.

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Originally Posted by Kanas

Although the post was a little rough I totally agree.

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I can be gentle too.

That was a fun read!

That being said, you can't fix stupid. Its true. The situation is hopeless imo. WoW was successful because it made itself so accessible that 5 yr old could probably effectively play it. It held your hands and guided you along a linear pathway to "that raid that drops all the gear you need to be awesome". FFXIV is just not that kinda game, and can't be the kinda game. Even if you add a "bonus" ppl just won't care because the reward for other things (latest dungeon, melding, sbing, crafting, farming) are so much better.

This isn't even touching on the elitism of final fantasy fans in general.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

That was a fun read!

That being said, you can't fix stupid. Its true. The situation is hopeless imo. WoW was successful because it made itself so accessible that 5 yr old could probably effectively play it. It held your hands and guided you along a linear pathway to "that raid that drops all the gear you need to be awesome". FFXIV is just not that kinda game, and can't be the kinda game. Even if you add a "bonus" ppl just won't care because the reward for other things (latest dungeon, melding, sbing, crafting, farming) are so much better.

This isn't even touching on the elitism of final fantasy fans in general.

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Good stuff.
I don't know what you mean about elitism though, "What do you mean you don't have an Aegis finished yet?" lol

That's why it's so important to find a nice Linkshell in FFXIV.
They will help you out when you can't find enough players for your stuff, help you with strategies, etc.

That being said, I often join random groups to help people out and enjoy a bit of nostalgia :o
Baby Ifrit, AFs, Toto-Rak..sure, I won't drop my evening-LS-program-party for these, but when I see a shout in Ul'dah and don't have plans in the next 30 min, I join :)

Incentives might interest a few people into helping, but overall I doubt the FF community is the type to do that.
Like Rayna said - whatever you give people for helping strangers is not as valuable as "playing with my friends only", "being the first on my server to kill XXX", "get drop XY from the newest raid", etc.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I think there's one type of person in this world that is truly unselfish, the type of person that works in the medical profession.

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You're joking, right? I hope you don't sincerely think that all doctors are in the profession because they want to help people.

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Originally Posted by auritribe

You're joking, right? I hope you don't sincerely think that all doctors are in the profession because they want to help people.

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Naivety is a precious thing!! We can't all end up cynical bastards lol...let him keep his dream!

If you do a good deed juts for the reward.... don't you cease to be a good person for doing it? You're just doin it for self-gain.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

If you do a good deed juts for the reward.... don't you cease to be a good person for doing it? You're just doin it for self-gain.

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So the topic should be titled: "Can we have incentives to pretend we are at least good people?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I could have said "Could we get incentives?" but people would think I was asking for something stupidly easy and feel a little uncomfortable about the real thing I"m asking, which is that we get an incentive to be good people.

I was born selfish but also social, like most people.

I think there's one type of person in this world that is truly unselfish, the type of person that works in the medical profession. If you do, props to you because you actually care enough about other people to devote all of your time to it.

For the rest of us, let me just recount some stories from FFXI:

CoP (Airship) (Fight) (Do You Need It?) (Help me out!)

Since I started FFXI @ TOAU I shouted this for 2 years and out of that 2 years I got to attempt the fight about 5 different times before people quit from losing it. When I finally did complete it, it was only because a player was eager to measure his e-peen with the new level cap of 80 or 85. In other words, I was stuck on progression for years and "quit" the game several times thanks to that system.

(Really time-consuming mission that I already did and will probably wipe at for hours because these new people don't know how to do it, and for which there is absolutely no reward for me) (Help me out!)

I shouted about a CoP mission but I have a feeling this is how my shout appeared on their screen.

(Job AF Quest that I already did 3 times for close friends, which I have absolutely no motivation to do and is now being shouted by a stranger) (Help me out!)

(Task that requires me to spend 45 minutes traveling and waiting on other people to show, spend my gil to get there, receive a durability penalty for wiping with the group until they learn the fight, which they may never be skilled enough to learn, and having to use my own gil and dark matter to repair) (Can I have it?) (Help me out!) 1/8

Okay I've made my point. For a certain amount of time after new content is released, like Zilart, CoP, TOAU, AF quests, etc, people are in a race to do it right away and it's easy to swim downstream. After a while the current dries up and all that's left is a few stragglers. I was a straggler in FFXI because I started late, and I'm turning into a jaded douche in FFXIV already because I started early.

What's the incentive to help stragglers in this game? Where is the incentive for me to put my hard earned gil, time, experience, and leadership forth to some straggler or noob when I'm having a consuming enough time using my play time toward progression with drop rates that are intentionally low? Let me spell it out for you. I'm never going to help anyone unless it's a close friend or I like their name or something random, they seem extra nice, or I'm really bored (why would I be logged in then?). And let's not kid ourselves. That's what's been going on in FFXI for 8 years or more. No case study needed.

This was one of the biggest flaws in FFXI and it's looks like no one's noticed that it's going to lock people out of FFXIV. Yes, I'm talking purely about the job quests. There are people that already have to wait an agonizingly long time to do them and they've only been out for a couple weeks. It's going to get much worse as time goes on.

Fortunately, I don't come to ask questions but also to present answers.

Not to get too intellectual about it, but games like WoW don't have this problem since the only group-progression requirements are obsolete through planning with every new patch. Old group content is experienced primarily through the Achievement system in that game, and guess what? Massive amounts of people go through that old content just for the "badge". I really like FFXI's / FFXIV's adventurous group-restricted content. I think it's a great strength for the game to have it, but a great weakness also because it alienates too many customers and forces them to quit the game.

My answer is simple. There should be a reward system that automatically keeps track of completed quest objectives, done in a full group, and the only condition is that someone in the group got the win for the first time. In that condition, a point is created which can be redeemed for something valuable. That's it. One simple change that will turn all of the Selfish Bastards of Eorzea into Kind Caring Doctors With Good Bedside Manner.

You're welcome dev team. If you want me to get more specific I'll be glad to.

Aw, who am I kidding they don't even read the English forum.

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Dude. This comes from heart...

I did not read your entire post. Its way too long. Doesn't get to the point.

However I did read this:

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There should be a reward system that automatically keeps track of completed quest objectives, done in a full group, and the only condition is that someone in the group got the win for the first time. In that condition, a point is created which can be redeemed for something valuable. That's it. One simple change that will turn all of the Selfish Bastards of Eorzea into Kind Caring Doctors With Good Bedside Manner.

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And I think its a great idea. I suggest deleting the rest of the post and keeping something of that size, if not just that paragraph.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

If you do a good deed juts for the reward.... don't you cease to be a good person for doing it? You're just doin it for self-gain.

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Well though I disagree with what the OP wants, how is anyone a "good person" under this definition to begin with? Nothing is done completely through selfless means, just that some people are better at hiding their selfish intentions.

Very nice. At first I thought it was just a complaint thread and was about to respond with something but when I got to the end I actually realized your point. When you lag behind it's harder to get stuff done. I've even seen it in an LS I'm in. Somebody will go "Can I get help for x?" and if I'm free I'll just offer and go along. Meanwhile others stay silent and won't even respond. A few do, but numerous times their requests for help go unanswered. Having some sort of reward system to encourage people to redo content isn't a bad idea at all. They added that feature in for Grand Company seals and drops from dungeons so that was a good step in the right direction. Now if they'll only do it for the rest.

I help people who are shouting randomly just to help them. I've been there in a few games and its a terrible place to be. If you're talking about things like "I help them to derive a sense of satisfaction because I feel I've done something good", then I'm prone to believe you're just trying to provoke people by splitting hairs about selfish intentions.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

That's why it's so important to find a nice Linkshell in FFXIV.
They will help you out when you can't find enough players for your stuff, help you with strategies, etc.

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Then I hope you don't end up in one of my linkshells. There are hundreds of people in my linkshells, most of whom I've never played with or done 1 run with and never talked to. They are no different than people shouting in the streets of Ul'Dah. If I get to know someone in LS it is more likely that I'll help them just to have fun, if I like their personality, but the idea of some linkshell "loyal" to its members is a very scarce thing in this community. In the end the people at the top are only interested in progression, and if they're not interested in progression, it's unlikely that they have the skill to really help, although it might be enough to get you past the AF quests.

I like the idea of the kind of linkshells you're talking about but just the fact that you bring it up shows your uncertainty about the subject. You are well aware of the reality of playing this game, and it's unkind to suggest to new people that they "find" a "good" linkshell because they may never find a good one, and they'll be out on the streets of Ul'Dah like a bunch of dog damned urchins shouting for help.

Or there could be a reward system.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

If you do a good deed juts for the reward.... don't you cease to be a good person for doing it? You're just doin it for self-gain.

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Yes it is purely for self-gain. Does it make you a good person in the eyes of God? Who could say? But who cares, because in the eyes of the Almighty Noob you are as good as a saint, and that's what I mean by "good person". A good person from the straggler's perspective.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Then I hope you don't end up in one of my linkshells. There are hundreds of people in my linkshells, most of whom I've never played with or done 1 run with and never talked to. They are no different than people shouting in the streets of Ul'Dah....

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There are more often than not EGLSs that are relatively small. I've done the 100+ person thing, typically a purely social LS, it's really just about as useful as you said since you do only know 10ish that're on around the same times as you. But a "good" EGLS will typically help when you ask, and of course they also tend to have planned events and things to continue peoples progression. Of course you won't get an EGLS w/o being ready for EG content and being capable of doing it well.

OT.
This is a great idea to get people up and about, and motivated to help others, that includes players from different LS from your own. It also gives players a goal to look out for in the future. If SE implement this right only good can come out from this.

Most people don't want to waste time doing anything for nothing you know.

FFXIV already has some annoying blocks in place which make it hard to get enough people to help you. For example the mog fight if people are shouting for it they want you to of beat the NMs required to do the fight. If you send the people shouting a tell they won't take you because they already done them. If you miss the boat on getting clearance for something makes it pretty hard to get a group together.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I help people who are shouting randomly just to help them. I've been there in a few games and its a terrible place to be. If you're talking about things like "I help them to derive a sense of satisfaction because I feel I've done something good", then I'm prone to believe you're just trying to provoke people by splitting hairs about selfish intentions.

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Its true though. Everyone is motivated by a degree of selfishness, which isn't a bad thing at all. Being philanthropic feels good, ergo you decide to be a philanthropist. Being a jerk causes you guilt, supposedly, so you decide not to be a jerk. Its not splitting hairs, nor provocation, its honesty. If you were never motivated by selfish intentions you would be miserable, because you would never pursue anything that gave you pleasure.

Ya, provoking like that. And it is indeed splitting hairs, as no action you could ever take is done with no motivation in one way or another. As a whole people don't break it down to that point unless they're trying to be asses.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

FFXIV already has some annoying blocks in place which make it hard to get enough people to help you. For example the mog fight if people are shouting for it they want you to of beat the NMs required to do the fight. If you send the people shouting a tell they won't take you because they already done them. If you miss the boat on getting clearance for something makes it pretty hard to get a group together.

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This is a great case-in-point, and something that's current and fresh to talk about.

It may seem like people are being unkind by not offering to help people clear the NMs in A Feast Of Fools, but surprisingly enough I've heard people on the other side of that situation make comments that show me they would think it's unkind for people to want to join a group that's forming to kill the Moogle. Weird, huh? But it's just how the game is designed.

Because the quest takes so much time, groups expect players to do what they can to minimize the amount of time required of the other players in the group, because there's no reward for that time. People are pretty smart. They don't need a thread on the forum to explain what is a waste of their time and what isn't. The only part of the quest that offers a reward is the actual fight, not the NMs leading to it.

Now imagine if there was some incentive for experienced players to help newer players progress through the quest.. you'd see shouts actually offering help to other players to kill the 5 NMs.