AST should have one default and one toggled sect

Since neither of the three Astrologian abilities which are affected by the "Sect" stances are enhanced in any way when no Sect is active, I propose that the Regeneration effects of Diurnal Sect are made the default effects of these 3 abilities, which become overwritten by the Nocturnal Sect Shielding effects when it is toggled on.
Ideally this would be achieved by turning Diurnal Sect into a Trait unlocked at Level 30

The positive effects resulting from this alteration would be:

• Less margin for error for absent-minded AST players who forgot to turn one sect on at the start of a duty
• One freed up skill slot in the hotbars/crossbars for no negative effect since the job's full strength is preserved

"Why should the Regen effects be the default?"
The Astro's Healing-Over-Time effects do not overwrite a White Mage's HOTs, but their Shielding effects overwrite a Scholar's Adloqium shield.
Going in line with my point about reduced margin for error it would only make sense to make the Astrologian's default state one where their inattentiveness results in suboptimal synergy when paired with a White Mage, instead of harmful dissynergy when paired with a Scholar.

Hey Chris,

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Since neither of the three Astrologian abilities which are affected by the "Sect" stances are enhanced in any way when no Sect is active, I propose that the Regeneration effects of Diurnal Sect are made the default effects of these 3 abilities, which become overwritten by the Nocturnal Sect Shielding effects when it is toggled on.

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The thing is that the Hots not overwritten by shilds. And the All shilds are stacking like all HoT. Only Nocturnal Field is not stacking with SCH shild the rest is stacking. And dont delete the Hot.

The Balance expalint it well that you make stance dance at a start of a fight:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...86/unknown.png

The great explain from the Balance discord tells everthing
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...35/unknown.png


In Diunal you have shilds aswell now with the neutral shilds so. And in Nocturnal you have extra hot. The shilds have not that Problem.

If you make in Nocturnal asp. Benefic you get a hot with neutral, BUT if you make asp. Helios aswell you overwrite the HoT from the Benefic (this HoT is weeker.). In Diu the neutral shild only overwritte if the shild is stronger.

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The Astro's Healing-Over-Time effects do not overwrite a White Mage's HOTs, but their Shielding effects overwrite a Scholar's Adloqium shield.

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Why you want this if AST have it (every 120s) with Neutral shild in Diunal (+20% boosted)? That question could be SE to lower the CD from Neutral to 60s or 30s? The answer would be impossible becuase seraph and Temperance have to lowerd aswell for balance reason.

The issue with the opener you posted from the balance is that this forces double regens if you have a whm cohealer. A recent foray watching my friends try to clear e7s they were having damage mitigation issues (people died) from a lack of shields. At one point their whm died from the empty wave raidwide from full hp. Double regens are a powerful tool, however with the comp of whm/ast you only get partywide shields under neutral sect.

Openers aside, I agree that ast should default to diurnal sect in level 30 and above content (when they would learn diurnal) so as to avoid a party where you forget your sect. As to why not default to noct that’s because you don’t learn noct sect until level 50.

You shouldn't need shields for empty wave if you're at full health though, what. Maybe if you're going in at minimum ilevel, but not at a decent level, at least, not so long as it's being reprisaled by the tanks, like it should be.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

You shouldn't need shields for empty wave if you're at full health though, what. Maybe if you're going in at minimum ilevel, but not at a decent level, at least, not so long as it's being reprisaled by the tanks, like it should be.

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My apologies it wasn’t empty wave, it was the post adds raidwide damage that killed the whm, they had 103k total hp roughly.

Hey Eclipse,

In Nocturnal you have to start with Diu and make the same rotation. So you get neutral shild (asp. helios and for main tank asp. benefic) + CI (for the maintankt) than switch in Noct + noc field (asp. helios and for main tank asp. benefic) + CO + and the bubble short. The bubble medigation holds 20s. So have not to heal.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...00/unknown.png

The neutral shild and the noc. field has a 20% buff.

Yep if you play diu ast + whm the midgation is not so great. Than you have to play in Nocturnal and that stance is not bad after the hugh buffs and change from patch 5.1. CO+ Noctunal field stacks. The bubble have min. 20s -10 dmg Buff (that can extended to ~40s with a 60s CD. But found no reason for it). The positiv thing in Noc is that CI is a hot tht cost nothing and is ocd heal.

I know hat a lot of the AST player wants to play in Diu. But in Savage Raid you have to look that the Raid do not wipe from aoes or tankbuster. The Noc AST has great tool and with helios/ Benefic II great tools to heal, if the the OCDs are not there -> in the best case you dont need if the WHM makes a good job^^.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

Hey Eclipse,

In Nocturnal you have to start with Diu and make the same rotation. So you get neutral shild (asp. helios and for main tank asp. benefic) + CI (for the maintankt) than switch in Noct + noc field (asp. helios and for main tank asp. benefic) + CO + and the bubble short. The bubble medigation holds 20s. So have not to heal.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...00/unknown.png

The neutral shild and the noc. field has a 20% buff.

Yep if you play diu ast + whm the midgation is not so great. Than you have to play in Nocturnal and that stance is not bad after the hugh buffs and change from patch 5.1. CO+ Noctunal field stacks. The bubble have min. 20s -10 dmg Buff (that can extended to ~40s with a 60s CD. But found no reason for it). The positiv thing in Noc is that CI is a hot tht cost nothing and is ocd heal.

I know hat a lot of the AST player wants to play in Diu. But in Savage Raid you have to look that the Raid do not wipe from aoes or tankbuster. The Noc AST has great tool and with helios/ Benefic II great tools to heal, if the the OCDs are not there -> in the best case you dont need if the WHM makes a good job^^.

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Diurnal AST + WHM can definitely mitigate enough for every fight in this tier. It worked for my static for 5-7 even when we had people below i475 (some people didn't buy crafted gear). E8S is a bit tighter, but apart from Absolute Zero at 0:16 there's nothing that needs shields after around i490.

Diurnal is a 45% increase in oGCD healing potency over Nocturnal. People being too lazy to use their mitigation tools isn't a good reason to give that up.

Making Diurnal the default sect if one isn't selected is a great idea. It's ideal for all content up to and including Extreme trials. For content above that it doesn't matter if there's a default Sect or not because people will almost never forget to use them as part of their prepull actions.

I'm not sure how a suggestion for having Diurnal be on by default unless you manually select Nocturnal turned into a discussion about AST party composition, openers, and shield stacking in a single post since the suggestion would have zero impact on any of that. Misunderstanding the suggestion? Going off on a tangent?

I agree with the OP that it would be a nice QoL and one I support.

Pragmatically, I also don't think SE will do it even though I think they should. Every job that has some sort of mode has to activate it and making Diurnal be on unless Nocturnal is on would remove an action which despite the recent action streamlining is something SE appears to really like to have for stuff. The only precedence I could see come into play here would be RDM with their always on Dualcast, but that's such an integral part of their gameplay that I don't think it counts as a true precedence when compared to a toggled stance like the Sects.

I really don't get the above discussion either. There's no downside to only press a button functioning as a toggle instead of two buttons.

I think it would be a great idea to have diurnal sect on automatically upon switching to AST. Then to get into nocturnal sect you press the sect button (and see the nocturnal sect animation), if you press it again you switch back to diurnal sect (with the diurnal sect animation). Frees one button and makes sure you have a stance instead of none. No downside at all!

I'm just not sure if it's even possible to implement like that though... are there any jobs that automatically get an ability activated when switching to them (other than gatherers, they may be special in that regard)? Or they would really have to make it into a trait, but then we would probably lose the diurnal sect animation.

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Originally Posted by Limonia

I really don't get the above discussion either. There's no downside to only press a button functioning as a toggle instead of two buttons.

I think it would be a great idea to have diurnal sect on automatically upon switching to AST. Then to get into nocturnal sect you press the sect button (and see the nocturnal sect animation), if you press it again you switch back to diurnal sect (with the diurnal sect animation). Frees one button and makes sure you have a stance instead of none. No downside at all!

I'm just not sure if it's even possible to implement like that though... are there any jobs that automatically get an ability activated when switching to them (other than gatherers, they may be special in that regard)? Or they would really have to make it into a trait, but then we would probably lose the diurnal sect animation.

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If people really want to keep the animation, they could make Nocturnal Sect animation when Diurnal Sect is active, and Diurnal Sect animation / Skill when Nocturnal Sect is active. Though I'm all for this QoL, it frees up one slot without losing anything - people can still jump into Nocturnal Sect and prep shield while jumping back into Diurnal Sect after if it's a toggle outside of combat.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If people really want to keep the animation, they could make Nocturnal Sect animation when Diurnal Sect is active, and Diurnal Sect animation / Skill when Nocturnal Sect is active.

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The problem is that if diurnal is the default, there would be no animation for it. You could have one for activating nocturnal, but deactivating it (to get back to stanceless = diurnal) would probably have no animation.
But we lost so many nice animations already that it doesn't really matter anymore anyway.

I think it's a good idea to make Diurnal default stance.
And while we're at it I think it's also time to get rid of that awkward 5sec cooldown on stances. I never got the point of it because you can only switch out of combat anyway. Why add a cooldown on top of that? It only makes stance dancing between pulls more risky as it increases the chance to get locked into the "wrong" stance and plenty of AST stay away from it because of this.
And if they want to avoid people accidentally turning off their stance altogether because they spam-clicked it: 1sec cooldown is enough.
I sort of got it with old cleric stance because it was meant to be risky and force you to plan ahead. But with something that can only be changed out of combat anyway? Meh.

And regarding the off topic discussion:

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Originally Posted by Eclipse12187

The issue with the opener you posted from the balance is that this forces double regens if you have a whm cohealer. A recent foray watching my friends try to clear e7s they were having damage mitigation issues (people died) from a lack of shields. At one point their whm died from the empty wave raidwide from full hp. Double regens are a powerful tool, however with the comp of whm/ast you only get partywide shields under neutral sect.

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If people die to raidwides on e7 and e8 that has nothing to do with the AST playing in Diurnal.
Raid mitigation is team effort, not a "healer only" thing. You are not meant to survive many aoes on e7 and e8 without at least one type of mitigation up. e5 and e6 are pretty forgiving and you don't get one-shot if you're somewhere near full HP at ilvl 480 but that ends with e7 where you get completely wrecked even in near 500 without mitigation.
Melee DPS: Feint, Second Wind, Bloodbath
Physical Ranged: Addle, Second Wind, Shield Samba/ Tactician/ Troubadour
Caster: Addle, Manaward (BLM)
DRK: Reprisal, Dark Missionary, TBN
GNB: Reprisal, Heart of Light, Heart of Stone
PLD: Reprisal, Pasage of Arms, Divine Veil, Intervention
WAR: Reprisal, Shake it Off, Nascant Flash
That's a lot of mitigation and emergency heals and it doesn't even cost them anything except for one lousy weaving slot compared to AST blowing MP + a hardcast on a raid shield. If they had to rely on Noct Asp. Helios/ Succor pre-shielding to survive mechanics they were doing something seriously wrong.
You can Reprisal pretty much everything and between Temperance, Neutral, CU and two tank raid mitigations you have enough even without a physical ranged to spread it evenly on top of Addle/ Feint.
But it's astounding how many dps say something like "just a sec need to put it on my hotbar" when you ask them to use Addle/ Feint or how many tanks reply with "it's just 10%, you can just heal it" when asked to use raid mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Limonia

The problem is that if diurnal is the default, there would be no animation for it. You could have one for activating nocturnal, but deactivating it (to get back to stanceless = diurnal) would probably have no animation.
But we lost so many nice animations already that it doesn't really matter anymore anyway.

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You know how Standard Step for DNC turns their other skills into dance skills - but aren't hotkeyable? However Standard Step and Standard Finish both swaps the effect of the Dancer skills.
There can be a skill called 'Sect Stance' that works like [Play] which has a different skill icon, but because Diurnal Sect is the sect trait (like auto-hide for Gatherers), The 'Sect Stance' turns into Nocturnal Sect with Nocturnal Sect animations when added to the hotbar. Similar to how [Play] becomes [Spire/Ewer/Balance/Spear/etc.] whenever a player uses [Draw] and gains the card buff indicating they are holding a card.
When using Nocturnal Sect, the Sect Stance skill turns into the non-hotkeyable 'Diurnal Sect' skill that when used, plays Diurnal Sect animation, disables Nocturnal Sect skill buff, and gives the Diurnal Sect buff, changing the Sect Stance skill into Nocturnal Sect.

It works similar to DNC's Standard Step buff where Standard Finish removes Standard Step - but different in which there's no timer associated with the buff.
So Auto Diurnal Sect (Standard Step) -> Nocturnal Sect (Standard Finish) -> Diurnal Sect (Standard Step)

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

You know how Standard Step for DNC turns their other skills into dance skills - but aren't hotkeyable?

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Oh, I haven't even thought of that!
Though when changing zones or dieing it would probably default back to diurnal... I'm really not sure if the game code could manage it. But maybe there is a way.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

And while we're at it I think it's also time to get rid of that awkward 5sec cooldown on stances.

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This is another great idea. The cooldown on AST sects only makes it too risky to switch between sects in dungeons. It doesn’t do anything for raids, it only makes it annoying to use when running dungeons, so they could just make it 1 second.

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Originally Posted by Limonia

The problem is that if diurnal is the default, there would be no animation for it. You could have one for activating nocturnal, but deactivating it (to get back to stanceless = diurnal) would probably have no animation.
But we lost so many nice animations already that it doesn't really matter anymore anyway.

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This is easy enough to handle as follows.

Lv30 Trait: Sect Mastery
Automatically activates Diurnal Sect when changing your job to astrologian.

[Precedent: Auto Prospect (MIN), Auto Triangulate (BTN), Auto Fathom (FSH), Auto Sneak (MIN BTN FSH), One with the Mountain (MIN), One with the Forest (BTN), One with the Ocean (FSH)]


Lv30 Action: Diurnal Sect
Adds Regen to certain actions and removes Nocturnal Sect.
This action shares a recast with Nocturnal Sect.
This action cannot be used while in combat if you are under the effect of Nocturnal Sect.
Activating Diurnal Sect a second time does not remove the effect.

[The last line becomes moot at Lv50 because Nocturnal Sect replaces Diurnal Sect when Diurnal Sect is active.]
[Even though Sect Mastery would automatically activate this ability, it must still be available to use manually at Lv30 so it can be turned back on after unsyncking from a lower level.]


Lv50 Trait: Sect Mastery II
Changes Diurnal Sect to Nocturnal Sect while under the effect of Diurnal Sect.

[Precedent: Nascent Chaos (WAR), Enhanced Kassatsu (NIN)]


Lv50 Action: Nocturnal Sect
Adds a damage-nullifying barrier to certain actions and removes Diurnal Sect.
This action shares a recast with Diurnal Sect.
This action cannot be used while in combat.
This action can only be used while under the effect of Diurnal Sect.
※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.


Then Diurnal Sect is the default, and at 50 the Diurnal Sect button becomes a sect toggle button, with animations.
Also, if while syncked below 50 you forget that you don't have Nocturnal Sect, pressing the button to switch won't dispel Diurnal Sect and leave you wondering why none of your Aspects are working.

Not sure why anyone would have a problem with this. Nocturnal stance would be still fully available at the click of a button, you'd simply have Diurnal up by default -- so no more possibility of not having all abilities available when starting a mission because you forgot to turn on a sect. And by making Nocturnal a toggle, you free up a toolbar button.

I agree to put both sect at one button.
Moreover, we should get Noct Sect at level 30/35.

I wish we can also put Draw + Play as one button too.
Draw CD time start when you draw a card, not when you use/play the card (not like the old draw system).

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

I agree to put both sect at one button.
Moreover, we should get Noct Sect at level 30/35.

I wish we can also put Draw + Play as one button too.
Draw CD time start when you draw a card, not when you use/play the card (not like the old draw system).

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The current Draw starts going on cooldown the moment you draw a card and not when you play the card.
Some players rather have the ability see Draw's CD to time how much they have left before clipping Draw's cooldown and whether they can hold the card and weave the next card in a Divination window.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

I'm not sure how a suggestion for having Diurnal be on by default unless you manually select Nocturnal turned into a discussion about AST party composition, openers, and shield stacking in a single post since the suggestion would have zero impact on any of that. Misunderstanding the suggestion? Going off on a tangent?

I agree with the OP that it would be a nice QoL and one I support.

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Seriously. The very simple fact is one sect doesn't play well with SCH's and one does. And the one that plays well with SCH can play with either AST or WHM as well. So the one that can play well with any combination should be the Default Sect.

How is this even controversial?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Seriously. The very simple fact is one sect doesn't play well with SCH's and one does. And the one that plays well with SCH can play with either AST or WHM as well. So the one that can play well with any combination should be the Default Sect.

How is this even controversial?

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One potential issue, to play devils advocate as it's technically a slippery slope fallacy, is that by making Diurnal the default sect, Nocturnal sect becomes irrelevant to the point that it gets removed.
They could conclude that Diurnal already has a shield via Celestial Intersection and Neutral Sect, and that Nocturnal Sect is no longer necessary. Stripping yet more identity away from AST.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

One potential issue, to play devils advocate as it's technically a slippery slope fallacy, is that by making Diurnal the default sect, Nocturnal sect becomes irrelevant to the point that it gets removed.
They could conclude that Diurnal already has a shield via Celestial Intersection and Neutral Sect, and that Nocturnal Sect is no longer necessary. Stripping yet more identity away from AST.

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'Being able to shield' isn't much of an identity if you ask me, since 2/3 of the healers can do it. And if we can strip out a load of bogus identity crap to make way for actual job identity, that would be pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

'Being able to shield' isn't much of an identity if you ask me, since 2/3 of the healers can do it. And if we can strip out a load of bogus identity crap to make way for actual job identity, that would be pretty nice.

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I agree that healer identities need to distance away from being either regen or shield healers, but this is a fundamental part of the AST's indentity, and removing Nocturnal sect would just fuel the concept of AST merely being a WHM clone even further.
I think all healers need to be able to do both to some degree, and the sects is ASTs way of doing this evenly.

I think Nocturnal sect should be made more relevant personally, and perhaps this could be forced by simply making Diurnal Benefic and Regen unable to stack or something like that. Therefore WHM+AST forces you into Nocturnal sect just as much as SCH+AST forces you into Diurnal.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I agree that healer identities need to distance away from being either regen or shield healers, but this is a fundamental part of the AST's indentity

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It's been there since the beginning, but I disagree. Aspected Benefic and Helios have always been footnotes in AST's healing identity. What I think of instead is Earthly Star's delay and timing, Essential Dignity's low% HP mechanic, The ability to extend regen effects by 3 to 5 ticks (which did nothing for shields by the by).
Those have always been the memorable parts of AST's kit. Changes in ShB have brought the sects more into general usage (CO/CI), but that's not what I think when someone says 'AST healing identity'

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

removing Nocturnal sect would just fuel the concept of AST merely being a WHM clone even further.
I think all healers need to be able to do both to some degree, and the sects is ASTs way of doing this evenly.

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Could it be that AST feeling like a WHM clone is actually because WHM itself is a boring cardboard cutout baseline of a healer instead of DiuAST being similar? Because their only similarity is their GCD skills.
Don't get me wrong, WHM works in its current state but its skills are almost entirely just +HP or +HP over time. The more interesting skills being assize, which the on-cooldown demand makes rather dull, and Asylum, whose healing buff could make for interesting teamwork potential but its high potency results in basically just another +HP skill.

If anything, AST's raw healing tools of Earthly Star and Essential Dignity, with their more engaging mechanics, make for more an evolution of WHM's concept than any skills attributed to WHM itself.
Is it really AST's fault for being 'samey' with WHM, when WHM boasts a base kit and little more?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think Nocturnal sect should be made more relevant personally, and perhaps this could be forced by simply making Diurnal Benefic and Regen unable to stack or something like that. Therefore WHM+AST forces you into Nocturnal sect just as much as SCH+AST forces you into Diurnal.

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The skills not stacking won't force Nocturnal. Nocturnal fails because shields aren't necessary in 90% of encounters, especially with allies who avoid avoidable damage.
If you don't need shields, then having them is worthless. So the sect that boasts higher healing numbers wins.

Nocturnal can't be forced unless shields are forced, and forced shields are eventually circumvented with tank cooldowns and gear progression. AST just needs a singular healing kit, with some regens and some shields, and no bogus 'dichotomy' shoehorned in.
The same with WHM, and SCH, and the next healer.

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The skills not stacking won't force Nocturnal. Nocturnal fails because shields aren't necessary in 90% of encounters, especially with allies who avoid avoidable damage.
If you don't need shields, then having them is worthless. So the sect that boasts higher healing numbers wins.

Nocturnal can't be forced unless shields are forced, and forced shields are eventually circumvented with tank cooldowns and gear progression. AST just needs a singular healing kit, with some regens and some shields, and no bogus 'dichotomy' shoehorned in.
The same with WHM, and SCH, and the next healer.

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I think SE make this in this addon well. That OP, CI and neurtal sect.. For my person I like it to have a doubled asp. Helios and the play with the stances.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...56/unknown.png

In an Opener you see that you can have strong shilds. So shilds are not a problem here. You get till shiva no much dmg for the first group buster. Same it you do not use noc field and a spreadlo form SCH.

Neutral makes a great Job and would like to tempt me to use GCD healing in the event of severe damage to groups without a guilty conscience.

This Healer Kit from the AST is powerful, BUT you have to understand how to play with this power. And I agree Yusi Kha in her thread that "Remove the GCD cost from on-demand healing". The AST has a great GCD healing Kit but it punnishes the DPS part.
I think its okay to use this Kit but than give the AST something for use a Asp. Benefic or Asp. Helios.

Atm you get punnished because using much GCD healing bruns your mana down, but CDs like Horocop or synastry force you to use them. And here is the problem in the Kit which is going to hold as "weakness" or special way to heal.

I liked the SHB healing kit because SE care about the CDs in Noc and found a way to make Diu in the pure hot stance.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

The Noc stance make his Job great to participate inc. dmg. I watch a person with gthe name "Barlow" and he told his viewer that "Bring the Player and not the class".From my point of view, this philosophy stands out for the astrologer, which is certainly contestable.

I would be painfully touched if SE change these two strong forms in a 0815 healing direction. Just because the opinion prevails that a stance does not promise "sufficient" healing.

P.S.: For completeness I made a screenshot to reflect the shields and buffs in Nocturnal, which is not bad compared to the SB Nocturnal healer. And trust is a way to show how tall shilds can be on our friends^^

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...46/unknown.png

Synastry and Horoscope don't "force" you into anything.
Horoscope is a nice free aoe heal without charging it and Synastry is a sort of support tool IF you know oGCDs aren't cutting it anymore. Astro currently has the highest rDPS with a good chunk of it coming from buffs. They lose far less dps than a SCH or WHM while getting a ton of value out of a single hardcast. What more could you want, really?
Temperance and Asylum also increase healing done by GCD heals but nobody forces a WHM to GCD heal when those buffs are up. Same with SCH Fey Illumination. It's an added bonus in case you DO have to hardcast.
Neutral is the only skill that kind of "forces" you to GCD heal and with AST having the highest rDPS plus insane oGCD heal potential it's only fair that there's a tiny tradeoff tied to it because it's the only one they have.
Lilies are a always net dps loss over Glare even with Misery (unless you dump at least one during transition). Any oGCD from SCH is a dps loss unless solely used during dot refresh or Ruin II's 2nd weaving slot after having it used for ED anyway.
AST gets a free weaving slot with every single Malefic and that's way more than they need for cards. The rest of the time they're free to do whatever they want with it. So talking about "getting punished" as AST is rich. It's by far the least punished healer for using a GCD heal.
It's every healer's challenge to minimize GCD heal; take that away and you don't have to think about anything when it comes to optimizing. So removing the GCD cost from spammable heals would imo be a terrible idea.

Nocturnal is a nice choice for prog as it serves as a safety net if your party isn't yet sure how much they need to mitigate at which points. Regens not stacking WHM regens would largely be inconsequential. You neither spam Regen/ Asp. Benefic nor MedII/ Asp. Helios. And the only time when it's unavoidable to hardcast is during Shiva add phase and the party is split anyway.
Even for cases like back to back aoes during e7 tornardo it's easy enough to take turns with your aoe heals because both using them is overkill anyway. Diurnal would still win. Diurnal wins because it gets higher value out of every single oGCD and GCD and "unlimited" shields on demand are not neccessary. That the regens stack is nice for inexperienced healers but completely irrelevant once you get better.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Nocturnal can't be forced unless shields are forced, and forced shields are eventually circumvented with tank cooldowns and gear progression.

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there is another way to force shields, and its used in exactly 2 fights in the entire game: make something bad happen when a party member takes ANY sort of damage from a specific attack

the two fights are a5s, where the boss rushes to a party member and gets a damage down if they took damage; and uwu, where ifrit pushes back everyone if they take damage from vulcan burst

what i dont understand is, if the devs love this false shield/regen dichotomy so much, why are these 2 the only mechanics where shields are relevant when not in minimum ilv

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Originally Posted by Eclipse12187

My apologies it wasn’t empty wave, it was the post adds raidwide damage that killed the whm, they had 103k total hp roughly.

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You should still be able to live that. Maybe you'll need a tank CD there but I'm pretty certain it doesn't one-shot if the White Mage with that ilvl. It could be their healing cast went out at the same time, and because XIV registers damage first, they were snapshot with less HP than what their HP bar actually showed.