Creation Magic and Summoning

So we have the Amaurotine society using Creation magic, which is described as the ability to form physical objects out of aether based on a template you hold in your mind. We know crystals can be used to supply the aether for this, since in a sidequest we receive a few crystals from an Amaurotine image to help us Create an Ascian robe for ourselves.

Now we have the surviving Amaurotines, the Ascians, teaching the Eorzean beast tribes and others to use aether to summon Primals using crystals, based again on templates that they are familiar with - the Gods that they worship, in this case.

Seems to me a fairly safe assumption that the summoning arts that the Ascians are teaching are actually just latent Creation magic, right? This also explains Emet-Selch's designation of Zodiark and Hydaelyn as Primals, since they were presumably Created in the same way.

What are the implications here? If the Beast Tribes (and Thordan, and Iceheart, and Yotsuyu, and Louisoix, and Ilberd, and ...) can all do this thing, does that mean that everyone on the Source has the latent potential to perform Amaurotine Creation magic? Does that ability increase as additional Shards are rejoined, bringing the Source's inhabitants closer to their perfected Amaurotine selves?

They are the same thing. The only difference is that the fractured people of the source and shards don't have the aether internally to do it so they need vast amounts from outside sources.

They are the same thing yeah.

It's worth noting that it seems to be the same thing Omega did too. I wonder if creation magic is the norm for the universe, and the people of Hydaelyn are the exception because of their sundered existences.

Since the early days of the story, we've had this idea that the summoning spell taught by the Ascians must somehow be deliberately flawed for it to always go so horribly wrong.

I am under the impression that the sundered races not being able to do it "right" and lacking the aetherial wellspring from which to dedicate enough for the creation to remain manifest unaided is how specifically that spell has been flawed "all along".

Teach it to them without any knowledge of what they're doing (creating over-powered unteathered arcane entities which wear their beliefs as a costume and drain the land to maintain their corporeal form while the psychospiritual weight of their psyche overpowers lesser minds) and this is the inevitable result.

That's one theory, Moose, and I can definitely see it. I have another, though. Emet-Selch tells us that the Finals Days were brought about because something (our famous "sound") caused the Amaurotines to lose control of and ultimately be destroyed by their own creation magic. Even Zodiark, the supposed solution they Created, immediately mind-controlled everyone who summoned it, which I doubt was in the template, you know? Either way, creation magic run amok certainly well-describes the Primal threats we've faced. Is it possible the Amaurotine doom is still colouring the Summoning arts?

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Originally Posted by HamiltonCalder

does that mean that everyone on the Source has the latent potential to perform Amaurotine Creation magic? Does that ability increase as additional Shards are rejoined, bringing the Source's inhabitants closer to their perfected Amaurotine selves?

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But isn't it the case that there are many people who are not fractured Ancients? Presumably, there were some finite number of Ancients at the time of the Sundering, and in the many ages since the Sundering, despite the calamities, the world population should have increased? And even if the Source's population is still comprised only of reincarnated Ancients because calamities have kept the population down, wouldn't it almost surely be the case that the Reflections that are still intact have high enough populations that there must be new souls? Isn't the confirmation that we are one of the Ancients reincarnated unusual? Surely we wouldn't think the Rejoining is so evil if we knew everyone would survive it in restored-Ancient form. It seems to me this must imply the birth of non-Ancient souls in the last several thousand years.

Am I misinterpreting things or overlooking some bit of dialog?

If I'm not, then I have more questions... Does everyone on the Source have latent Creation magic, even if they're not a reincarnated Ancient? Or have all the people who have performed summonings just been lucky to be reincarnated Ancients? What does this mean for beastmen and their summonings?

Presumably, anyone capable of manipulating aether is capable of Creation magics, but most people don't know how to do it. The amount of aether the creator pours into it seems to determine how long the creation can last on its own without consuming external aether; primals need a constant supply of crystals and faith (which, itself, may just be another way of focusing aether into the target), while Emet-Selch's recreation of Amaurot continues to endure after his death (not to mention releasing Archeotania to roam the Tempest).

I kinda wonder how these revelations play into Fray and Myste from the dark knight job quests. Especially with Myste, who would seem to be a summon who can create more summons, like a primal creating adds to fight for them.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Presumably, anyone capable of manipulating aether is capable of Creation magics, but most people don't know how to do it. The amount of aether the creator pours into it seems to determine how long the creation can last on its own without consuming external aether; primals need a constant supply of crystals and faith (which, itself, may just be another way of focusing aether into the target), while Emet-Selch's recreation of Amaurot continues to endure after his death (not to mention releasing Archeotania to roam the Tempest).

I kinda wonder how these revelations play into Fray and Myste from the dark knight job quests. Especially with Myste, who would seem to be a summon who can create more summons, like a primal creating adds to fight for them.

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Oh neat, the actual Final Fantasy Twintania from FF5 is a fate boss I've never seen :o

As far as Amaurot recreation goes, to me it's clear that Emet-Selch remade the place in a way that is self sustained, because otherwise he wouldn't have been able to fight us at his fullest. Course, maybe he needs to juice his creation every now and again too.

As far as Myste and Fray go, they are reflections of the WoL's soul and psyche, so in essence part of him. It's kind of like Multiple Personality Disorder/Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're all still the WoL, but they have their own whims and egos and wills.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As far as Myste and Fray go, they are reflections of the WoL's soul and psyche, so in essence part of him. It's kind of like Multiple Personality Disorder/Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're all still the WoL, but they have their own whims and egos and wills.

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Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question of how they manifested physical bodies. (Fray's presence is somewhat ambiguous during most of the 30-50 quests, until the final one where he uses the original Fray's corpse before abandoning it to manifest as a copy of the player, but he does appear in the flesh in the 70 quest, right in front of Sidurgu and Rielle, so it's still relevant.) Are they more-or-less primals? Is it Creation magic? We don't really know.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question of how they manifested physical bodies. (Fray's presence is somewhat ambiguous during most of the 30-50 quests, until the final one where he uses the original Fray's corpse before abandoning it to manifest as a copy of the player, but he does appear in the flesh in the 70 quest, right in front of Sidurgu and Rielle, so it's still relevant.) Are they more-or-less primals? Is it Creation magic? We don't really know.

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Well it would seem to be fairly similar. I mean, Myste takes half of the WoL's aether to create the simulacra of the loved ones in the early 60s quests, and then Sidurgu and Fray's father figure mentor in the 65 quest, complete with wickedly powerful abilities, supposedly exacerbated by Sidurgu's memories of his mentor/adoptive father being unbeatable. But they're unlike primals or creation magicks in that they exert no will of their own, rather the perceived will of the person whose memory was drawn upon, and some of them know they are simulacra. They can't temper, and they are more or less real people until they dissipate since Myste can't manifest them for very long.

Also when they do dissipate you get to take your aether back, it doesn't disperse back to the planet or anything. If anything they're most similar to the Memoria solo instance entities that we fight in Cid's memory. Only they are brought out of memory and made tangible in what's considered the physical plane of existence. It's probably attributable to Creation Magic, in the same way that Emet-Selch recreates a vision of his past, his memories, they are the same as that.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Presumably, anyone capable of manipulating aether is capable of Creation magics, but most people don't know how to do it. The amount of aether the creator pours into it seems to determine how long the creation can last on its own without consuming external aether; primals need a constant supply of crystals and faith (which, itself, may just be another way of focusing aether into the target), while Emet-Selch's recreation of Amaurot continues to endure after his death (not to mention releasing Archeotania to roam the Tempest).

I kinda wonder how these revelations play into Fray and Myste from the dark knight job quests. Especially with Myste, who would seem to be a summon who can create more summons, like a primal creating adds to fight for them.

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Just a personal theory but I think it has to do with us being sundered, of course, amount of aether is an important matter as well but during the Amaroth questline, we were tasked with weaving an item into existence, not only did we need to gather aether, but npc also mentioned how it felt like we were imcapable of mentally casting the magic.

I think that is why summoner summons aren't indefinate. We are using a less perfected version of creation magics, downed from primal summoning which ascians taught beast tribes to sow chaos and imbalance of aether. (Hence primals feeding on aether constantly)

My theory is that is exactly why summoner needs runes and symbols to guide their magics, or the combine faith of a whole group. It is because we do not have the mental understanding and instinct to weave such interacate rules for aether purely within our minds.

Essentially our creations 'leak' aether and cannot hold a stable form without constant feed, unlike I imagine proper creation magic where creations are alive and well far after their creation.

We have even seen spriggans being created, a race of monsters that had far outlasted the race of ancients who created them. Cleary ancients creations do not require a constant feed of aether.

Creation magic seems to be a different 'tier' of magic. Creation magic - regular magic - no magic. Summoning appears to be the closest you can get to creation while still using regular.

Arcane entities still require an energy source for sustenance. That's why Hermes has us help out with feeding the lightning pneuma with aether near Anagnorisis. Anything that can move without consuming energy is by definition a perpetual motion machine of the first kind, which would violate the Ea's heat death theory.

An Amaroutian in one quest discusses the use of a 'matrix' to store his proposed creation and it is well established the complex entities like Carbuncle and Eos are generated using crystals, said to be ideal for 'data storage'. It could very well be that Creation magic beyond short lived conjuration was once beyond ancient humanity as well...is there any solid indication the unsundered Ascians were empowered by Zodiark? If so, Emet's recreation of Amarout on the ocean floor might not be a good metric for what the average Ancient was capable of achieving with their own two hands and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Cygnia

An Amaroutian in one quest discusses the use of a 'matrix' to store his proposed creation and it is well established the complex entities like Carbuncle and Eos are generated using crystals, said to be ideal for 'data storage'. It could very well be that Creation magic beyond short lived conjuration was once beyond ancient humanity as well...is there any solid indication the unsundered Ascians were empowered by Zodiark? If so, Emet's recreation of Amarout on the ocean floor might not be a good metric for what the average Ancient was capable of achieving with their own two hands and nothing else.

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Well, Emet-Selch was a member of the Convocation of Fourteen. Hythlodaeus, Chief of the Bureau of the Architect and thus the overseer of any and all creations that get submitted to it, says he knows of no mage more powerful. He was never going to be a measuring stick for the "average" ancient when he's consistently referred to as being exceptional compared to his peers.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Creation magic seems to be a different 'tier' of magic. Creation magic - regular magic - no magic. Summoning appears to be the closest you can get to creation while still using regular.

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Not quite a different 'tier', but definitely a different school making use of a very different amount of aether. Aetherically speaking, we are too tiny to use creation magi even if we knew how.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Not quite a different 'tier', but definitely a different school making use of a very different amount of aether. Aetherically speaking, we are too tiny to use creation magi even if we knew how.

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We actually do use creation magics of a sort. You learn while leveling disciples of the hand how, on a fundamental level, the way we create via crafting is alarmingly similar to the creation magics practiced by the ancients. The key difference is our need for materials, where they usually required no such assistance.

As an added note: some text in Emet-Selch's reproduction of Amaurot indicates clearly the ancients made allowances for individuals of lower aetheric density and/or skill, most notably children, by providing materials.

Everything indicates that crafting is largely a mundane process and outside of the use of elemental crystal and perhaps certain applications no actual magic is at play.

Use of catalysts as a means of overcoming arcane limitations was definitely a thing both in ancient times and the present, though.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Everything indicates that crafting is largely a mundane process and outside of the use of elemental crystal and perhaps certain applications no actual magic is at play.

Use of catalysts as a means of overcoming arcane limitations was definitely a thing both in ancient times and the present, though.

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Yeah, anyone who says the crafting classes are using creation magic of any kind are just proving how they didn't actually pay attention to the crafting storylines, and are giving what was basically a joke sidequest more weight than all of them. Every single crafting story actually explains that the most magic we're doing is stuff like using fire crystals to heat things up, or wind crystals to aid in cutting motions.

Hell, Leatherworker's stories just wouldn't work on a basic level if it turns out we were doing creation magic. Their stories are focused on calling out shoddy workmanship, producing mid-cost goods, and taxidermy; none of those really swing if it turns out every leatherworker is just some variety of wizard.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, anyone who says the crafting classes are using creation magic of any kind are just proving how they didn't actually pay attention to the crafting storylines, and are giving what was basically a joke sidequest more weight than all of them. Every single crafting story actually explains that the most magic we're doing is stuff like using fire crystals to heat things up, or wind crystals to aid in cutting motions.

Hell, Leatherworker's stories just wouldn't work on a basic level if it turns out we were doing creation magic. Their stories are focused on calling out shoddy workmanship, producing mid-cost goods, and taxidermy; none of those really swing if it turns out every leatherworker is just some variety of wizard.

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Well it's not creation magic but lorewise the method of crafting we use is synthesis, using the energy of crystals to perform the work you'd usually do in a fraction of the time. However it still requires that the crafter know what they're doing and be able to do it. Also it requires crystals and the general populace doesn't quite have the same access to crystals that we do.

I see some people didn't actually read the quest text as they leveled their crafters if they're just dismissing out of hand the multitude of indicators present through out all of the DoH questlines. There's far more than one "joke" questline.

I'd like to see some citations of the "multitude of indicators" as ALC and maybe GSM (For their work on mammet cores) are the only instances I can really recall where their work delves into elements that involve more then mundane crafting.