Casters in FL?

If you enjoy playing a caster in FL right now (particularly BLN and SMN), what playstyle is fun to you? I try to stay at range but a large number of my casts are interrupted by the target going too far away or dying. When possible I try to stand over a group of enemy players but that is highly situational. So I just take pot shots from the edge to get some assists here and there and the lucky KO. Or get frustrated, move a little closer, then hit Bolt when I'm focused. Is there a better way? :confused:

Skilled casters are often the #1 damage dealer in FL right now, though good DRGs and BRDs are decent competition. What makes casters special is we have spammable ranged AOE, where as other roles often requires proximity and risk for their AOE. This is the main feature of our entire role when it comes FL, and our primary contribution to a fight. Compared to melee our ability to score actual kills is a mixed bag with our best gimmick usually coming in the form of Phantom Dart burst sequences, but what we are doing is dealing thousands and thousands of damage with every GCD if we target clusters of players. Raw damage count alone is not inherently impressive, but what happens is we exhaust enemy resources: potions, CDs, heals, etc., forcing a retreat or outright getting people killed.

As a caster in FL, your main focus should be getting as much AOE damage out as possible, switching to ST for targeted pressure or to secure kills. Your main target: enemy ranged and healers, who often cluster in the backline, pressuring them to get them out of the fight. As you said, our chase is our biggest weakness. Ranged physical and melee have superior mobility, so let them handle pursuit of targets. As an aside: a single Red Mage can lock down up to four enemy players in rapid succession so it's not that chase is nonexistent, though you have to be reeeeaally careful with this since it's very easy to die without the 30% DR melee and tanks get.

Anyway, while all three casters have some great CC that can help lock things down, you kind of accept that we are much more finicky about who we can target versus our physical counterparts. You are going to carefully balance positioning and change targets often to secure as much damage as you can with every cast. Don't fuss too much over people getting out of range and just readjust.

Edit - Since you specified at the start: I play mostly SMN but I will play RDM if our alliance needs more lockdown and healing. For my credentials: I consistently perform highly for my alliance on Primal, so I'd like to think I know a thing or two about the role. I am not perfect but I think I am experienced enough with these two jobs in FL to speak for them. While I don't play BLM a lot of my best competition does and I have a good idea of what they are capable of. All three are amazing in their own ways.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Skilled casters are often the #1 damage dealer in FL right now, though good DRGs and BRDs are decent competition. What makes casters special is we have spammable ranged AOE, where as other roles often requires proximity and risk for their AOE. This is the #1 feature of our entire role when it comes FL, and our main contribution to a fight. Compared to melee our ability to score actual kills is a mixed bag, but what we are doing is dealing thousands and thousands of damage with every GCD if we target clusters of players. Raw damage count alone is not inherently impressive, but what happens is we exhaust enemy resources: potions, CDs, heals, etc., forcing a retreat or outright getting people killed.

As a caster in FL, your main focus should be getting as much AOE damage out as possible, switching to ST for targeted pressure or to secure kills. Your main target: enemy ranged and healers, who often cluster in the backline, pressuring them to get them out of the fight. As you said, our chase is our biggest weakness. Ranged physical and melee have superior mobility, so let them handle pursuit of targets. As an aside: a single Red Mage can lock down up to four enemy players in rapid succession, though you have to be reeeeaally careful with this since it's very easy to die without the 30% DR melee and tanks get.

Anyway, while Red Mage's CC and SMN's stun is incredible, all that aside you kind of accept that we are much more finicky about who we can target versus our physical counterparts. You are going to carefully balance positioning and change targets often to secure as much damage as you can with every cast.

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Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I've found caster gameplay so far in Frontlines to be heavily situational. People in my groups who play BLM (which I'm leveling at the moment), for example, say Fire IVx3 -> Dart -> Xeno for single target but that can be hard to land standing in the back. Most of my casts get interrupted by targets moving out of range or dying, so I only feel slightly useful at mid in Onsal Hakkair when people clump together. Yet even then often there are no tanks or melee dps pushing in a little and giving cover for me to move in a bit, so many clumps are out of range. There is some clumping around other ovoos now and then, but again, if my GC is charging in most targets die or flee before I can finish casts. If they don't charge I have to take a big risk to ilm in to be in range of an enemy clump. During a single cast bar for AoE I can find that the allies next to me now a few yalms behind and I'm getting targeted.

The actual part of being useful (pounding clumps to scatter foes and break enemy lines) doesn't seem to happen often or last long. Being a glass cannon with cast times and a shield with a 45 second cooldown doesn't seem to match the reality of FL play as well as the other combat jobs, but maybe the other jobs just have a lower skill floor in PvP? Mostly I just hit people with Fire when I can't use AoE since it's instant cast and look for ways to try to do AoE on the occasions I can.

I tried SMN a couple of matched this past week as well after queuing in for something else, but it felt similar to what I describe above for BLM. I loved SMN in PvP near the start of Stormblood in those 8 vs 8 training Feast matches. Not the same at all now. So far for the BLM, I've done 11 matches, all tonight in a row, and it feels clunky with the fluidity and movement of the battlefield. Obviously I'm new but I'm not sure what else I can do besides the above.

Yeah I think experience with FL is going to be important in that after a few hundred games you develop a sort of sense for when you are drawing attention, when you need to move back, when you can play aggressive, etc. Like, for example, weaker players often panic when tanks are on them, and feel the need to attack them. However, a more experienced player will know that tanks are not inherently threatening and can be ignored, and the majority of their danger only comes if their CC can put you in jeopardy.

Spell casts are such that you are, as you've noted, stationary while doing them, but the payoff is also delayed. This means prediction is huge, and being able to read a lot of data quickly in advance is critical. You have to know when an enemy alliance is being distracted by your tanks and melee. You have to when an enemy formation is falling apart and you can start to move forward. You have to when your presence here will be enough to force them to retreat.

No matter what role you play, you have to be able to check your surroundings and map frequently to get an idea of when your teammates have your back or when you are overstaying your welcome. Casters and healers are privileged in that we can check the map or swerve our camera around while we cast; during a 2 sec period of a spell cast, you can be gathering information or changing to a new target. Just like any other role, you will have to know when you are subject to attack, and since you can't zone with as much fluidity as a ranged physical you'll have to combine slide casting with instants to reposition.

I'd say casters (especially RDM) and non-NIN melee are harder to play well than tanks, ranged physical, and healers, so if you find your general game sense in FL is lacking, it can be worth it to play something more forgiving until you get more games under your belt. I've noticed a lot of the people who consistently play mages and melee well are people who have played a lot of FL, where as I feel if our best players are, say, a tank or healer, their talents are not being utilized as well.

Also, there's plenty of situations to get value on AOE, as there's quite a bit of geometry to work with. The centre of Onsai Hakair is obvious, but other key features are:

• Bridges
• The easiest point of reaching elevation
• Corners
• Near nodes
• Any time a team pursues another, as people will inherently take the path that will most quickly get them in range of a target

I would say on average my AOEs get at least 3 targets. Of course, with good geometry, much more, though that should be the minimum you are looking at. A well-placed Painflare on 5+ players can realistically be the deciding factor for a node, and there is a huge component of patience in knowing when the time is right.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

I'd say casters (especially RDM) and non-NIN melee are harder to play well than tanks, ranged physical, and healers, so if you find your general game sense in FL is lacking, it can be worth it to play something more forgiving until you get more games under your belt. I've noticed a lot of the people who consistently play mages and melee well are people who have played a lot of FL, where as I feel if our best players are, say, a tank or healer, their talents are not being utilized as well.

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I've only played 517 FL matches (compared to the thousands some have played), but I think I can generally sense risk, which is why I stay so far back and am quick to flee as a caster. Yet it is a little different on casters. I just had a match where I got to be at mid for several minutes and was doing well, but bridges and other nodes often go quickly one way or another and then there are the loose open field skirmishes. Will keep practicing and looking for openings. Have more levels to do on BLM and then onto RDM. Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness. Your insights and those of my teammates have been very helpful in understanding how gameplay changes using magic ranged dps. Always appreciate it.

On tanks - they can kill me really easy either in a group battle or 1 v 1, and, as mentioned before, I don't see tanks and melee distract or harass people too often. Some do sure, but a lot of times it's more like when 5 year olds are playing sports and the coach tells them to play their positions but then they all run to the ball anyway :p So I just make do with what I get in terms of team composition, experience, priorities, etc. :) Patience is an issue for me because on other job roles it feels like I always have an opening ready to go, so I guess it makes casters feel slow by comparison. Will take time to acclimate.

Here are all my BLM matches, running from April 24th through the 26th:

April 24th
1-0-13
0-0-12
1-2-11
2-1-5
0-3-7
2-0-16 (really good group)
[forgot to check stats but something like 0-3-9]
1-5-11
1-4-10
0-1-12
0-3-13


April 25th
2-2-17 538712 (13th in total damage) <-- loss
1-2-15 229533 (19th) <-- loss
2-3-29 51656 (near or at bottom) <-- loss
0-2-2 34110 (not sure, really bad group) <-- loss
1-2-17 235010 (21st) <-- loss
2-0-8 95474 (35th) <-- loss
1-3-28 169674 (23rd) <-- loss
1-1-15 150987 (43rd) <-- loss
3-1-15 151880 (42nd) <-- win
1-1-12 64967 (36th) <-- loss
break
3-0-18 444610 (9th) <-- loss
2-2-4 92920 (51st) <-- loss
1-1-13 148967 (35th) <-- loss
2-2-11 135545 (39th) <-- win

April 26th
0-0-5 17916 (67th), but we dominated for a super quick win
5-0-34 368005 (17th) <-- win and got Battlehigh V (good group; before died too much to go beyond I or maybe II)
1-2-17 67695 [interrupted by glitch/crash] <-- win but missed part of match
2-3-21 122808 (34th) <-- win
3-1-24 128843 (38th) <-- win
0-1-16 103984 (43rd) <-- win
2-0-33 206981 (26th) <-- win
1-2-13 80169 (46th) <-- win
1-1-16 216685 (29th) <-- loss

Cleave and never ever play RDM.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

I've only played 517 FL matches (compared to the thousands some have played), but I think I can generally sense risk, which is why I stay so far back and am quick to flee as a caster. Yet it is a little different on casters. I just had a match where I got to be at mid for several minutes and was doing well, but bridges and other nodes often go quickly one way or another and then there are the loose open field skirmishes. Will keep practicing and looking for openings. Have more levels to do on BLM and then onto RDM. Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness. Your insights and those of my teammates have been very helpful in understanding how gameplay changes using magic ranged dps. Always appreciate it.

On tanks - they can kill me really easy either in a group battle or 1 v 1, and, as mentioned before, I don't see tanks and melee distract or harass people too often. Some do sure, but a lot of times it's more like when 5 year olds are playing sports and the coach tells them to play their positions but then they all run to the ball anyway :p So I just make do with what I get in terms of team composition, experience, priorities, etc. :) Patience is an issue for me because on other job roles it feels like I always have an opening ready to go, so I guess it makes casters feel slow by comparison. Will take time to acclimate.

Here are all my matches from April 24th and 25th (all my BLM games through April 25th):

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Hmm. While you can get games where damage is low because you mostly win on caps, when you average those out, those damage numbers look a little low. Like, even on the fastest or most passive games possible, sub 200k damage dealt is a little low for a BLM or SMN. I want to say you have to be playing a lot more aggressively, but if you find yourself dying a lot, you might not have developed the killer instinct to know when you can position more aggressively. Like, not counting the games with like 34k damage, some of these are still less damage than you should be getting in a single battle, nevermind a full game.

With regards to the tank thing, we really don't do that much damage outside of GNB burst sequence, though usually if they are on-top of me, they immediately expose themselves to too much of my alliance to survive long enough. If this isn't happening, it could be a positioning problem. We reeeallly want some big meaty blokes nearby to get the most of the caster experience.

The 1v1 thing doesn't matter much. For the most part if you find yourself fighting tanks, melee, or healers 1v1, a tactical error was made. Should have been out of there a minute ago.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Cleave and never ever play RDM.

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Ha ha. Awww. But we have good CC, and can heal well in a pinch!..

... Okay, yeah, RDM is still not quite where it needs to be in FL. The melee component is almost completely incompatible with the environment which is a huge part of our burst.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Hmm. While you can get games where damage is low because you mostly win on caps, when you average those out, those damage numbers look a little low. Like, even on the fastest or most passive games possible, sub 200k damage dealt is a little low for a BLM or SMN. I want to say you have to be playing a lot more aggressively, but if you find yourself dying a lot, you might not have developed the killer instinct to know when you can position more aggressively. Like, not counting the games with like 34k damage, some of these are still less damage than you should be getting in a single battle, nevermind a full game.

With regards to the tank thing, we really don't do that much damage outside of GNB burst sequence, though usually if they are on-top of me, they immediately expose themselves to too much of my alliance to survive long enough. If this isn't happening, it could be a positioning problem. We reeeallly want some big meaty blokes nearby to get the most of the caster experience.

The 1v1 thing doesn't matter much. For the most part if you find yourself fighting tanks, melee, or healers 1v1, a tactical error was made. Should have been out of there a minute ago.

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Yeah I know the damage is low, but I take what I can get as I practice the life of a PvP caster. That is also dependent on how my allies play though, which can be frustrating. I added yesterday's data above and it isn't totally different but has some better matches.

The 1v1 isn't by choice, but sometimes when my side gets routed and people scatter in different directions I get isolated. Or sometimes a melee or tank runs our spawn area to camp it. I am, though, very good at the early exit in all PvP games with a largish map. The coward's retreat is one thing I do well :p

"Nope... nope... nope... nope..." can be heard fading into the distance.

In any case, I'm almost to 70 so after a Main Scenario or Alliance Raid in roulette much later today I will be swapping to RDM for a bit in my bid to get the DPS jobs to 70.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Cleave and never ever play RDM.

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Uhhhh...

:) You can always swap to another job when you get into PvP. So you can queue as RDM, and if you find it's not working out for you, you can PvP on a different job. You can change anytime you are in spawn and you'll get XP on whatever you queued as. I got BLM to 80 despite barely playing it this way.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

:) You can always swap to another job when you get into PvP. So you can queue as RDM, and if you find it's not working out for you, you can PvP on a different job. You can change anytime you are in spawn and you'll get XP on whatever you queued as. I got BLM to 80 despite barely playing it this way.

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True, but I really want to experience all jobs in PvP and find something I like about all of them. I did notice a couple of times that I may have helped push people back from a node on BLM, and I enjoy the visual display for each target hit with Freeze and the sound effect, especially when it was 5 to 10 at a time. I'm sure there will be something redeeming about RDM :)

{Oh and I like your new signature with a more powerful girl saving the other girl from a beast, but I haven't been able to watch much anime in a long time so I have no idea what it's from.}

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

True, but I really want to experience all jobs in PvP and find something I like about all of them. I did notice a couple of times that I may have helped push people back from a node on BLM, and I enjoy the visual display for each target hit with Freeze and the sound effect, especially when it was 5 to 10 at a time. I'm sure there will be something redeeming about RDM :)

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That's good! And completely valid. You should give them all a chance; while some are better than others I don't think there's a bad job in FL right now. Not a lot of people with familiarity with the game play RDM in FL, so wisdom on the job is scarce right now. That said, it's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.

The first of the two major downsides of RDM is the lack of accessible instant casts. The other two casters have spammable instant spells you can throw out on the move, which is really important to your overall contribution, especially on the hunt. RDM can only do that through dualcast or spending metre. The other downside is, as mentioned, RDM's melee while combo powerful can be difficult to use in FL. Unlike actual melee jobs, RDM don't have that 30% DR. Even with the shield on Engagement it's very easy to die extremely fast in FL if a 15k HP squishy gets cheeky.

All that said RDM has a lot going for it. Dualcast helps a lot with its mobility and flexibility. Being able to reposition while you put out your strongest spells is huge, and the ability to proc it with Vercure and stuff is great. Also, the CC RDM gets is amazing at chase. When you get better at the job you start to get an idea of when you can pounce on enemy battle highs when they over-extend or retreat, locking them down for an extended period of time.

While it can be difficult to use the melee combo, it does still come up often enough in small engagements. What is more is you can do the combo sequence on something like a tank or melee that has over-extended, adjust your target, then drop the Verflare/holy and Scorch onto something in the backline; with BH and Phantom Dart this is practically two-thirds of a ranged DPS HP bar just gone. Even when you can't use the melee combo, Enchanted Reprise is a spammable 2k damage 1.5 sec GCD death machine that's great to throw at weakened targets. With how fast you can build Mana this isn't bad at all.

When everything is settled, RDM tends to not perform as well as SMN and BLM in terms of numbers. It's not a bad choice if you want to play DPS but you think your alliance could use a little backup healing or additional lockdown. It's just really hard to play right now to its full potential, and when you do, it's okay but not particularly stellar.

Signature is from the opening of Etrian Odyssey Untold: The Millennium Girl. Fun series.

Stats for RDM since I already have them for my BLM debut as well:

4.27.2020
2-1-10 30484 (win)
0-3-5 70297 (bad group, loss)
2-2-10 159999 (loss)
3-1-30 226966 (loss, good group, battlehigh IV)
2-1-13 102625 (loss)
0-2-20 210755 (loss)
2-2-7 97647 (bad loss, zero most of the time and ended with 62 team score)
0-0-11 66194 (easy win, lots of help with utility but less so damage)
0-3-12 89937 (close win, dink and dunk utility and damage)
4-1-18 385471 (nice team, lots of new players, most of match just pew pew at mind, loss)
3-1-7 55978 (rough fight, all over map loss in 2nd after comeback)

4.28.2020
2-1-4 88673 (loss)
5-0-27 257391 (loss, battlehigh v)
3-0-17 239584 (win, battlehigh iii)
2-1-26 215331 (loss but cool k.o. with displacement)
1-1-16 149087 (loss, bad organization)
0-1-9 37737 (early lead, no battle highs for team, 3rd place loss)

4.29.2020
0-3-11 115496 (loss)
1-0-19 150849 (loss)
1-1-15 30093 (loss)
2-2-12 128537 (loss)
1-2-8 110295 (loss)
2-2-11 110534 (loss)
0-1-10 81718 (loss)
2-2-10 96685 (loss)

4.30.2020
1-0-5 172090 (loss)
1-2-6 94208 (loss)
3-0-9 231612 (win! after 14 losses; battlehigh iv)

After that with other activities I hit 70 :)

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

I'm sure there will be something redeeming about RDM :)

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If you're in a small skirmish, you're fine, anything outside of that (and given that they are few and far in between) and you are gimping yourself playing RDM vs any other range option. Actual melees are better than you in melee range, and some of them even range better than you do as well (hey Dragoon). "Yeah but CC and we have the option of both, also vercure!" - yeah 4 vercures is an entire mana bar and heals for less than a ranged HP bar if you use all 4 outside of Battle High; which by the way, is the lowest hp pool in the game further strengthening the case to just not play it unless you're content casting scatter/impact and enchanted reprise all game, removing your two biggest nukes from the equation in the process.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

If you're in a small skirmish, you're fine, anything outside of that (and given that they are few and far in between) and you are gimping yourself playing RDM vs any other range option. Actual melees are better than you in melee range, and some of them even range better than you do as well (hey Dragoon). "Yeah but CC and we have the option of both, also vercure!" - yeah 4 vercures is an entire mana bar and heals for less than a ranged HP bar if you use all 4 outside of Battle High; which by the way, is the lowest hp pool in the game further strengthening the case to just not play it unless you're content casting scatter/impact and enchanted reprise all game, removing your two biggest nukes from the equation in the process.

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That's a bit reductive. I think it is better framed at RDM having good healing, but bad sustain. That is to say, dropping a very fast burst of 6k+ healing is huge, and powerful, since that is often all that's needed to get someone out of a sticky situation. It's obviously not a job that is going to keep the whole alliance topped off, but considering they have a lot of the fundamental benefits of a DPS while having this capability, that's not bad. It is tempting to want to frame it as only having 12k HP on a full tank, but in practical terms that's usually not what's important. You usually don't run out of MP since you are usually done healing before that happens, since you are fundamentally a DPS and you are usually only healing when you really want to help out one of your battle highs that have over-extended or something. If a RDM is having to use their full MP bar in Frontline regularly, they are not playing their job right.

RDM for what it's worth probably has my favourite of the raw GCD AOE options since it's easy to proc the conditions to land those juicy Impacts. I think they are looking a lot better than the way they looked when they tried to streamline their CC. That said, while there are some really great RDM unicorns on Primal and Aether, I would agree with the overall idea that they are the weakest of the mages in Frontline right now, due entirely to their lack of good damage on the move and the inability to regularly access their melee kit. I wouldn't try to knock on their utility since that's the one area they seem to be doing alright in. They could probably use some oGCDs and more instant casts, but adding oGCD attacks to RDM would make their burst in Feast broken, since they share kits across environments.