I miss the days when we didn't need foreknowledge to not die.

Remember the days when insta-death attacks gave you some kind of cue that you could see and understand what was about to happen, based upon what you could see?

Remember the days when you could Q up for a Normal Trial/Raid and not need to watch a video to avoid having to die to every mechanic to learn the hard way what a boss does?

I miss those days.

It seems like we are getting more and more cheap with insta-death attacks, where there's only a split second telegraph and you were supposed to somehow know what was supposed to happen ahead of time.

That kind of thing is fine in Savage, but do we really need that in Normal? Maybe I don't want the spoil the fight before even going in because I'm required to watch a video to actually understand what the boss is doing, when there's so little visual cues given.

I got Eden Ramuh today and I wasn't even really looking to go there, I just wanted a Roulette and it happened to be in my quest log, and I Q'd up as tank (I usually do newer content as ranged or healer so I can learn the mechanics easier), and of course... more instant-death attacks that have very little if any cues as to what you're supposed to do.

He throws down two spears, one's slightly shorter and one of them has a lightning bolt on it (not that you would SEE that with all the other junk happening at the time). By the time you notice everybody running to the end of the arena, you'll never make it in time because it covers 90% of the arena and kills you outright in one shot, no-matter-what. Later on, he throws down FOUR spears and you're supposed to somehow, within about 1-1.5 seconds, find the one that's shorter than the others with all the other stuff all over the place, and just hope you get lucky and it was the corner closest to you at the time.

Whatever happened to bosses that gradually taught you how to fight them during the course of a battle, where they would show attacks one by one and then combine these attacks as you had time to learn what was going on?

Whatever happened to bosses that did hard-to-avoid attacks that gave you vuln (rather than instant death), and if you kept screwing up, you would die to the regular AoEs?

I hate having to watch video guides before even stepping into newer trials/raids because it's downright impossible to know what you're supposed to do without looking like an idiot when you die again and again and again to cheap attacks you couldn't have possibly seen coming, where if you get a group where 3+ people are new to the fight, it's going to be a minimum of 5 wipes to actually win.

Like I said, that kinda thing is fine for Savage, but I hate how this stuff is creeping more and more into our Normal content.

It's not that I can't handle the mechanics... after 4-5 wipes, I was able to go the whole fight only getting hit by one... but the wipe after wipe after wipe process is not fun, and it just feels cheap, like there's no way you could have possibly known this stuff ahead of time.

EDIT: Before anybody goes "the older stuff was too easy!!!!" Um. That's what Savage and Extreme is for, kthx.

As someone who does things when they come out and cannot have foreknowledge about fights, I find it weird that you say you "need to watch a video" instead of just learning from a few deaths like everyone else did before?

Eden-Ramuh's mechanics, while brutal (Stratospears in the ground) are easily telegraphed for over five seconds, even in Savage (by telegraphed I do not mean the orange ground circles but rather the "safe spear"). To say you have to know within 1-1.5 seconds is a hyperbolic reaction and is simply not true. If you have trouble to find the right spear "with all the other junk happening at the time" I recommend reducing the visual effects of your party in your Character Configuration, because that is the only other thing going on besides potentially Stormclouds forming on two players.

While the fights get more and more lethal, the devs kind of expect players to gradually improve over time or learn from mistakes - which is commonly accepted in parties. I have yet to have an Eden-Ramuh (Normal) run where a player ragequits instead of learning from his mistake or, if he can't figure out the reason for his death, to just ASK the other players in the party about mechanics.

It isn't that older stuff was too easy, but players should expect content to gradually increase in difficulty within and / or between expansions as we level. The difficulty within Extremes and Savages increased as well, so if Normal mode were to stay the same difficulty as before (i.e. not scale accordingly) then the skill gap required would widen even further, making Extreme / Savage look like a distant goal when it actually really isn't.

I'll be humble in my opinion - I genuinely prefer the boss giving me instant-deaths when I don't have debuffs because then I can at least tell that I am NOT supposed to stand or do whatever I did there.

If your issue is that "dying makes you look like an idiot", that is a mentality issue, not that the players require you to know it since it IS normal mode after all.

Literally just be observant to your surroundings. The spear AoE is not 90% of the arena. Each tall spear covers maybe 50-60%, of the arena. Even in savage Ramuh gives you forever and a day to figure out what spear is the short one.

If you can't pick up the queue of everyone running to one side of the arena or lightning sparking on the taller spear, that's not the game's fault. It's your own and you should work at it. If you feel stupid for dying in new content, that's again, an issue with you, not the content.

You can either watch the guide or learn not to care, as its normal mode content. You think people who did it when it was first released never died?

But i gotta admit im gettin sick of oneshot stuff too, that and death walls/pits just suck...

Ever since Qarn (normal), Titan (Hard), and Tsukuyomi (normal) being mandatory for the Main Story beforehand, there shouldn't be surprises of seeing a few moves that are gonna instantly knock out a party member outside of extreme/savage/ultimate.

So is it a flaw that you might not clear a fight on the very first pull? 2-4 pulls for a first time run of a normal raid should be acceptable, especially if you aren't a serious raider

There isn't a fight in this game that requires a video to be watched first. How on earth would people be clearing this before the videos went up?
Just dive in! Take chances! Make mistakes. Get messy!

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Originally Posted by Maeka

He throws down two spears, one's slightly shorter and one of them has a lightning bolt on it (not that you would SEE that with all the other junk happening at the time).

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The short spear is significantly shorter than the other. Once you've seen what the spears look like, you don't have to look at both of them to tell which one is the short one. Look at one spear. Is it the short one? Yes: run to that side. No: run to the other side.

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By the time you notice everybody running to the end of the arena, you'll never make it in time because it covers 90% of the arena and kills you outright in one shot, no-matter-what.

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You have the space of about three GCDs to determine which side is safe. If you absolutely can't do this "with all the other junk happening at the time", then stop everything you're doing and just handle the spear mechanic.

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Later on, he throws down FOUR spears and you're supposed to somehow, within about 1-1.5 seconds, find the one that's shorter than the others with all the other stuff all over the place, and just hope you get lucky and it was the corner closest to you at the time.

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The two spear version should have prepared you for this. When you see he's casting "Stratospear", you should expect that you will suddenly have to run to the safe spot. But he telegraphs four landing points for spears this time. Since you have no idea which corner will be safe, maybe stand in the middle when the landing points appear so you're equidistant from all four corners? Then you'll have time to choose a corner and sprint there before the arena blows up, no matter which corner is the safe one.


None of this "requires" a video or foreknowledge. The first Stratospears mechanic that drops only two spears is a mechanic anyone should be able to figure out after just seeing it (or dying to it) once or twice. The two spear version teaches you everything you need to know to handle the four spear version.


This game doesn't just throw super instant death mechanics at you with no warning in non-Savage/non-Extreme content. Every mechanic is a reuse or adaptation of an old mechanic, and when a particular fight has unique mechanics, they start out by giving you a simpler version of the mechanic first before throwing the hard version at you.

The validity of that example aside, I agree with the sentiment. Almost all of the mechanics in the game are about standing in the correct spot but with various amounts of mess to make it hard to quickly discern where that spot is.

On fights that make it less obvious what you're supposed to be doing I call it being stabbed by the invisible man. Something happened and we died. Hopefully one of us glimpsed whatever thing we were supposed to be looking at so we can learn for the next attempt.

I think the best fights are ones that make it plain to everybody what you're supposed to be doing but still manage to be challenging on some level without needing to confuse people.

This was a fun fight on day one. My group had like 3 wipes as we figured out all the mechanics and talked to each other, then probly 2 more wipes because people were stacking the stormclouds(one of us figured it out, but either due to not paying attention or not being used to how much was going on in the fight it kept happening). The final pull they merged the clouds again(it was the 3rd or 4th time he drops them, so we had a few clean ones first), but he was under 10% and we powered him down before it ended us. As long as you remembered the orb thing from patch 2.3 ramuh, the rest of the moves were visual enough to figure out as we went. Long and short spear? The long one will be hit by lightning, get to the far side. Charging guys in obvious lanes? Dont stand in front of them. Ongoing thunderstorm with telegraphs? Those are probly upcoming lightning strikes.

considering most of Eden is rehash primals from ARR alot of there mechanics have been around for ages or are in other fights that too have been around for ages
dont really need to look up anything

Usually people critique difficulty being too mind numbing and easy not the opposite.

If your doing Eden NORMAL mode of all things you shouldn’t be surprised by stuff like this. The game shouldn’t be a freaking cakewalk. I haven’t wiped in a dungeon in like 2 years because of how inconsequential the mechs are let’s not make the only type of content left that poses a remote challenge to be diluted because people don’t pay attention or don’t wanna wipe. This is game is not for kids and it’s been slowly cutting off its balls because people want a theme park ride ie “it’s a small world after all” not a interactive video game where your roles and actions make a difference.

But agree to disagree

I feel a lot of people in this thread are speaking through the eyes of people who are already experienced with the fight, and/or they watch videos to see what people do, etc.

And to the person who asked "how did the first few people clear the fight?" well.... obviously the first people to get there are savage raiders who are used to wiping and wiping and wiping... and they get through and make guide videos and then everybody is expected to go watch them.

The thing about the spears?

You have about two seconds-ish to figure out that one of the spears is shorter than the other and lacks a lightning bolt, before you run out of time to move out of the way. Maybe 3 seconds depending on where you were on the battlefield at the time. Any longer than that, and you will get caught in the AoE and die instantly.

To the person who said that these mechanics were present in the original Primals..... um, no? There were no spears covering most of the arena in Lv50 Ramuh, unless you mean Extreme Ramuh, which I never had reason to do.

The clouds? Yeah, they give you no clue what will happen if the two clouds merge, or even what the purple marker actually means. Even if you ran away from the group to dump the purple markers, unless the two so-marked knew to go to opposite ends of the Arena.... well, you're screwed. How would you know that ahead of time? You wouldn't, quite frankly.

And to the person who goes "is it a flaw to have to die multiple times to clear a normal fight?" .... I'd argue that yes, requiring several deaths to learn a fight is a bit cheap. It makes the whole thing feel cheap, like there's no way you could have known that before going in for the first time.

I think back to more interesting and fun fights like some of the Omega fights back in the day, and some of those were quite reasonable, but yet could still kill you dead rather quickly if you ate the mechanics. (though others were more obtuse)

I don't mind mechanics that are challenging to deal with, but it would be nice if you could SEE what is going on, and have a decent chance of guessing what you should be doing based solely on visual/audio cues, and have enough time to actually react to it without needing movement abilities (which not every class even has outside of Sprint) to get out of in time because they cover nearly the whole arena.

I'll use another example:

The First and Second Eden Fights.

Lots of movement, plenty of instant death... but the mechanics were readable, and if you paid attention, you could guess what was meant ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I feel a lot of people in this thread are speaking through the eyes of people who are already experienced with the fight, and/or they watch videos to see what people do, etc.

And to the person who asked "how did the first few people clear the fight?" well.... obviously the first people to get there are savage raiders who are used to wiping and wiping and wiping... and they get through and make guide videos and then everybody is expected to go watch them.

The thing about the spears?

You have about two seconds-ish to figure out that one of the spears is shorter than the other and lacks a lightning bolt, before you run out of time to move out of the way. Maybe 3 seconds depending on where you were on the battlefield at the time. Any longer than that, and you will get caught in the AoE and die instantly.


The clouds? Yeah, they give you no clue what will happen if the two clouds merge, or even what the purple marker actually means. Even if you ran away from the group to dump the purple markers, unless the two so-marked knew to go to opposite ends of the Arena.... well, you're screwed. How would you know that ahead of time? You wouldn't, quite frankly.

I don't mind mechanics that are challenging to deal with, but it would be nice if you could SEE what is going on, and have a decent chance of guessing what you should be doing based solely on visual/audio cues, and have enough time to actually react to it without needing movement abilities (which not every class even has outside of Sprint) to get out of in time because they cover nearly the whole arena.

I'll use another example:

The First and Second Eden Fights.

Lots of movement, plenty of instant death... but the mechanics were readable, and if you paid attention, you could guess what was meant ahead of time.

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So, you think that only savage raiders did the fight the first 3 or so days after the fight was released? Everyone else waited for guides? I have to laugh.

The first time ramuh drops the spears, he quite literally vocalizes that he's going to hit one of them with lightning. The time between him dropping them and the cast for them exploding completing is eight seconds. You can run from on edge of the arena to the other in half that time.

The purple marker has been around in tons of dungeons and trials since at least heavensward, in various colors. It means you are going to drop something that will linger and possibly deal damage (e.g. Gubal Library). No, it doesn't tell you what happens when they are too close before you drop them, but failing that part of the mechanic doesn't instantly kill you in normal mode. I've healed through "the Parting Clouds" tons of times, the worst it does is give a nasty damage down debuff.

I havent done a savage raid this expansion. I dont often go past the odd (Ex) trial in terms of difficult content. Instead, i look at this fight as one that i cleared during the afternoon of the tuesday that the patch went live(my goal was to get all 4 in before the schools let out, i didnt finish E8 until about dinner time). Random DF group, no one had gone looking for a guide and no one had done the fight before. We watched the mechanics, we died, we talked to each other. By the third pull we had seen all his moves and figured them out, we just needed to put a clean run together to move on. For the spears, maybe youre right that its 3ish seconds that they explode after the telegraph appears. But his casting bar and vocalization tells you whats coming. If youre in a corner(not a good idea anyway for this fight) that gives you time to move toward the center. Then the spears fall and sit there for a few seconds before the telegraph goes out. Thats time to identify the safe side before the telegraph appears. And if youre in the middle area like you should ideally be, even running once the telegraph appears will usually be possible since you only have to cover about 1/3 of the platform to reach safety from there. You had a rough first run, but youre attributing more difficulty to the fight then it actually has. Ramuh has like 5 moves, most of which can be dodged for 0 damage if you do it right.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I feel a lot of people in this thread are speaking through the eyes of people who are already experienced with the fight, and/or they watch videos to see what people do, etc.

And to the person who asked "how did the first few people clear the fight?" well.... obviously the first people to get there are savage raiders who are used to wiping and wiping and wiping... and they get through and make guide videos and then everybody is expected to go watch them.

The thing about the spears?

You have about two seconds-ish to figure out that one of the spears is shorter than the other and lacks a lightning bolt, before you run out of time to move out of the way. Maybe 3 seconds depending on where you were on the battlefield at the time. Any longer than that, and you will get caught in the AoE and die instantly.

To the person who said that these mechanics were present in the original Primals..... um, no? There were no spears covering most of the arena in Lv50 Ramuh, unless you mean Extreme Ramuh, which I never had reason to do.

The clouds? Yeah, they give you no clue what will happen if the two clouds merge, or even what the purple marker actually means. Even if you ran away from the group to dump the purple markers, unless the two so-marked knew to go to opposite ends of the Arena.... well, you're screwed. How would you know that ahead of time? You wouldn't, quite frankly.

And to the person who goes "is it a flaw to have to die multiple times to clear a normal fight?" .... I'd argue that yes, requiring several deaths to learn a fight is a bit cheap. It makes the whole thing feel cheap, like there's no way you could have known that before going in for the first time.

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I've yet to clear a savage raid (still trying), but Eden Normal really isn't that hard. You may wipe a few times, but that doesn't mean its too hard. There's nothing wrong with wiping when learning a new fight as long as you are paying attention and learning from the wipe.

I remember when I did Ramuh, we basically wiped to stratospear the first time. After that we cleared it on the second pull. And this was with randoms.

It took longer to get first clear on later fights, I think it took about 30 minutes to get my first Shiva clear. And you know what? That's just fine. We learned, we got better at mechanics, and then we cleared. There was much more satisfaction from clearing Shiva than from if we had cleared first run.

Don't take wiping a couple times as the content being too hard. If you hit lockout on a normal fight, THEN maybe you have issues, but if a fight takes more than 1 or 2 pulls, that doesn't mean its too hard. Just pay attention and learn from your wipes.

When I did Edenverse Ramuh normal mode day 1, my random DF group was able to one shot it, albeit with a lot of deaths. You also do get vuln stacks in that fight if you get hit by the telegraphed lightning storm spam AOEs.

As for how you're supposed to know things, well it's an inherent part of the game's design that you will die or be hit by a mechanic the first time that you see it. If you aren't, then you are either lucky, skipped it, or the mechanical tell was obvious enough that you mostly did the mechanics correctly.

Even in Savage raids there are very forgiving mechanics. I am on hiatus this raid tier, but last tier a perfect example is the aoes that target DPS and leave a gravity puddle in E1S. They were tuned to do enough damage to kill the DPS if two overlapped, but only from full HP of i450 entry gear. With shields and some mitigation, you could double stack the puddles, letting two melee DPS continue with their rotation instead of deal with the mechanic. You should always keep in mind that all forms of the battle content are designed to be beaten. There is always a way to win, though learning the path you have to tread varies fight to fight.

They haven't yet released a normal mode raid that wasn't possible for some group to beat first try, not counting original raids Binding Coil, before Savage was an idea. What you need to chock your discomfort up to is not the fight design, but your nervous state about being on a role you did not want to be on in there. Change your mentality. It is ok to die while you are learning, that is part of how you learn what mechanics are dangerous and what mechanics aren't. Plus, you can't control what people think of you. You could be one of the best players in the game, and people will think you're an idiot cause of the race you play or the glamour you have or the things you say. Focus on what you can control.

I believe that content shouldn't be too easy, even in story mode, and that it's ok for people to progress on normal content. It's not like there are actual dps requirements on the fights, you can essentially zombie through. But if the majority of people fail to understand the mechanic I do feel that a wipe and retry should be warranted. Learn, adapt, and overcome!

I one shotted my way through the normal raids. Only tried the first savage last night, set up a learning party, and wiped 5 or 6 times before my dogs decided they needed to go crazy at a bird outside (thought someone was breaking in). I find things that are difficult for the sake of being difficult aren't fun, but decided I would give it a shot to see if I could hang. As a "casual" I don't think things are so bad I can't learn it, I was doing fine with being mele DPS and baiting the hit and soaking in the cloud.

I think people are missing the OLD "story mode" primal fights that 4 people can handle. None of the new primals have NM, HM, EX., it's just HM and EX. Please note, I'm fine with the way things are. I don't want it to change, I just think this is what they are missing.

Some like to learn the theory before doing practicals; others prefer jumping right into the practicals.

Either way is fine.

The larger problem is how to explain mechanics to a group that may or may not understand the language you use.

You can't possibly convey everything through the in-game translator.

You'll just get ressed anyway. As long as 1 tank and 1 healer lives in normal you can recover from anything.

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Originally Posted by Kaiten_kenbu

The larger problem is how to explain mechanics to a group that may or may not understand the language you use.

You can't possibly convey everything through the in-game translator.

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Yes, I hate them for not adding mob attacks to the auto-translation...

Just yesterday i had a MM ex party where the GNB MT wanted to use metorfall for the first TB and the OT kept sharing it after every wipe bc he didnt really understand him xD

Uh, I'm confused by the OP's example. The first move where Ramuh drops 2 lightning rods IS the learning mode for that move. Every time after that, the move either occurs simultaneously with other mechanics or occurs in a multiple of 4 with very little room to stand out of the AoE. That first one with just the two rods is there to teach you that the small rod equals the safety zone.

All of the Eden bosses are like this, with each of the opening moves occurring solo or in simpler forms before being unleashed in tandem or with larger effects.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

All of the Eden bosses are like this, with each of the opening moves occurring solo or in simpler forms before being unleashed in tandem or with larger effects.

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Except for Flamewing mans' 270° cleave, which is telegraphed but still killed many of my groups xD

The only dungeons I do are the ones to complete the MSQ. Hate em.

I can understand the frustrations of the OP, I've never liked mechanics where the outcome is completely binary (as in you either do it right or die) outside of Savage mode. Mistakes should be punishing and you should want to avoid them but I always preferred debuffs like damage down/vuln stacks where continued mistakes increase the likelihood of death/wipes rather than one mistake causing a death/wipe.

I'm fine with it in savage mode as dying over and over again until you master everything is what progression raiding is all about but that is fight dependent for me. Mastering E8S to get my clear was rough, meanwhile I actually enjoyed mastering E4S.

is this a trollthread? One day 1 plenty of blind groups were able to kill his within 2 or max 3 pulls

theres literally nothing difficult about it >.>