Is it official? Are we tempered? (5.2 spoilers / speculation)

With the revelation that the echo is merely, as described by Elidibus, a remnant of the power the ancients had... And as we witnessed how an illusion could awaken this remnant of power even on the fragmented souls in the first.

Consider this: the ancients that summoned Zodiark were tempered by him.
That means the echo =/= temper-proof, considering even the 'real deal' couldn't protect them from zodiark's influence... Therefore, could it be this whole time we thought we were immune to tempering was just correlation, in the sense that we aren't protected from tempering, as much as it might be that we simply already were tempered?

Could it be that when we attain the echo, we are tempered by Hydaelyn? (Hear, feel, think...) And now that we know tempering by Zodiark still allows his subjects (the ascians) to retain such a grand level of autonomy and reasoning, it no longer stands impossible to reason that we are likewise tempered by her.

I know it's old old stuff, but don't forget Ifrit's shock when he first tried to temper us and fails, only to exclaims in realization that "we've been claimed by another" (paraphrasing there).


Thoughts?

That theory falls a bit flat though (not to mention is contradictory) by how 1.0 showed plenty of people at the Waking Sands who had been awoken to the Echo, and not one mentioned anything about supporting "the Mothercrystal" or "Hydaelyn" (hells, Hydaelyn's name was not even mentioned at all in 1.0 period). Most were not even fighters, but regular people, merchants, housewives and husbands, even children, all they said is that they had experienced a vision of a "starshower" and then started to have "visions", they were just confused about why they had been given this 'gift'. Where as those shown to be tempered by Primals immediately devolve into Primal-worshipping zealots throwing up their arms in devotion to their new false god.

So I don't know, the "Echo is tempering and we're tempered by Hydaelyn accordingly" idea is an old theory that the game unfortunately continues to enjoy teasing without actually confirming or denying it outright, and has given more traction with the recent patch story. I still hold to the "no it is not" idea, because of the aforementioned references, but I do have to at least admit now that the possibilty cannot be dismissed completely, but we will find out more soon enough I guess.

*imagines a certain ahriman at his desk grinning* ;)

Ifrit didn't say that. Here's what actually happened:
https://imgur.com/a/04b8i8G
It's Temugg Zoh that gets shocked and says you must belong to another. Ifrit says that's usually how it works, but says he can't smell the taint of another on you. Therefore he he thinks you must be of the "godless blessed's number" that the Paragons warned him of.

The Ifrit scene in ARR was recycled from the Ifrit scene in 1.0, where he said...

Quote:

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Ifrit
You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid.
To which do you kneel, mortals?
[Path Companion says some form of, "No primals for me, thank you."]
Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune.
[Path Companion says some form of, "If I had protection, would I be here with you?"]
Your blindness is born of ignorance.
I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda...or Titan? Perchance...Leviathan?
[Path Companion says some form of, "No primals for me, remember?"]
Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed.
There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked.
Yet the Paragon has entreated that I spare you, and so I shall─on one condition.
Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins will be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity.

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If you compare this to the ARR version, you can see some definite story evolution happening behind the scenes.

Just food for thought, the Warrior of Light doesn't just have the Echo, doesn't just have a shard of the Mother (Crystal of Light) capable of Her divine intervention being cast through it as the blessing of Light, but also has additional powers granted only to "Hydaelyn's Champion," including the ability to interfere with the aetherial realm directly so that the crystals of Light as a complete set are drawn to our strength and remain "charged". Comparing us to other Echo users or other Crystal Bearers isn't always 1:1.

Isn't saying "Hear, feel, think" the opposite of being tempered ?
Up until now, Hydealyn's blessing if more a tool to achieve our own goal.
At least, that's my point of view.

1. The starshower in the Crystarium was an illusion created by an Ascian, but Elidibus confirms that Hydaelyn herself uses the starshower illusion to awaken the Echo in people.
2. Primals can usually only temper you if you're in close proximity... but the whole world is named after Hydaelyn. She's sort of everywhere already. It's perfectly reasonable to think that the starshower visions are accompanied by tempering, even if the Echo and tempering are fundamentally different processes.
3. The immunity to tempering that is associated with the Echo can have two explanations:
i) Only super-primals like Hydaelyn and Zodiark have the power to temper Ancient or Echo-awoken souls.
ii) Everyone we know with the Echo who is confirmed to be immune to primal tempering has already been tempered by Hydaelyn. Including us.
4. Considering that Zodiark's tempered retain a lot of autonomy, and that Hydaelyn's whole raison d'etre is to stand up for the rights of the non-Ancients who arose in Zodiark's restored world... it's reasonable to think that being tempered by Hydaelyn may involve no more than being immune to tempering by others. Hydaelyn just wants nothing more from us. Perhaps that was the strategy of her summoners all along - to protect people from the tyranny of primals like Zodiark, by creating a primal whose only goal would be to protect people from being tempered by primals.

If we're able to question whether or not we're tempered (as Ardbert does in one inn scene of Shadowbringers), we probably are not.

Even if we are, it's had no observable effect on our behavior.

Consider the fact that Ardbert and co. were anti-Hydaelyn when we first met them.

When they were super angry at her because they thought that she didn't care about them because the Flood of Light was happening. So much so, that they sought the aid of Ascians and then gave up their mortal bodies in order to then go to the Source and cause a Rejoining with reasons that are mostly for the preservation of their worlds souls, but also partially just to spite Hydaelyn.

IF being a "Warrior of Light/Darkness" means to be Tempered by Zodiark/Hydaelyn, then how would it be possible to actively go against said entity that Tempered you?

Further to this, if there's this global "Tempering" happening due to Hydaelyn being the "Will of the Star" and thus ever present... Then surely ALL Ancients would have been Tempered by Zodiark (Who was also the "Will of the Star") and thus there wouldn't have been potential for the sect to appear that decided to summon Hydaelyn in the first place.

I still doubt we are tempered. First these words come from Elidibus (that Hydealyn uses this to get her WoLs) so I remain skeptic and honestly it makes no sense. Seemingly quite a few people have gotten the echo (according to Elidibus) and a few of those heard Hydealyn too but only two left. The rest was convinced by the exarch to stay. So the echo itself cant be tempering and I doubt that hearing Hydealyns voice alone tempers people. We only became a Wol ourselves after getting crystals of light and we never changed our behaviour.

We see how tempered people behave, even someone like Emet who knew us kept on this plan. There is no indication that someone that is tempered can go against the will of the primal. Even if they have still some ways to act on their own this fact seems to remain.

But we already know of WoLs (so those that truly have her blessings) that went against her. That even became corrupted and tried to do things that hurt her. Heck even Ardbert and his groups were out trying to kill us. How can they do that if we are tempered? How would they be able to even think about betraying her?

Then we have the case with Zenos and his echo. People say that echo is a tempering on his own which is why we cant be tempered but how can the resonant echo be it too if its not a natural one? I guess that echo grants you a protections against losing your mind to the influence of others but with Zodiark they may have specifically created him with the wish of bringing order since their creation magic was going wild. So of course order for the mind is done by controlling them..and a lot of the primals that were summoned by beast tribes are done after the teaching of the Asicans. Of course those would include tempering too.

We dont know for sure if Hydealyn follows the same way. Heck we dont even know if she is summoned right now or if its just her essence that exists in the lifestream right now. Maybe she would also be tempering people unwillingly if she would exist in the real plane but since she does not then she may not have it? Or maybe her tempering is just simply giving people the will to feel, think and hear for themselves which is kinda free will.

If we are not tempered, is it really the Echo that protects us? Of course, it might be that the Echo can be overpowered of by extremely powerful primal, but what if it is something we have not heard about yet?

On the other hand, if it is the Echo, will it protect us from Zodiark?

I guess it depends on if you take Emet-Selch at his word when he told us that he and the other members of the Convocation were tempered and slaves to Zodiark's will. Personally, I kind of like to think that what he said was a lie to help him distance himself from his guilt over killing billions over and over again.

Of course, some people allude to Zenos's interpretation of the Echo/Resonance allowing you to contest the will of a Primal, and go as far to assert your control over it. Primals themselves are kind of like a perverse form of creation magic, and for the most part I assume they do not really possess souls, only physical aether and the will imparted on them by their summoners' beliefs. Though, Zodiark and Hydaelyn differ by having Ancients as their hearts/cores/base, so they did possess souls and rather strong full ones at that. With that being the case, it'd be easy to see that they have the stronger form and soul, with part of the primal's will being to subjugate other Ancients. So it makes sense that the Ascians could be tempered.

I think that tempering is basically the corruption of someone's soul, which is why remedying it is so difficult/impossible. Basically standard and even extreme versions of primals can't temper those with the Echo, because we have strong souls and the ability to use our soul and directly combat the wills of other.

I don't think Hydaelyn tempers people, because her entire point was to counteract the dictatorship of Zodiark. If anything, since her attacks were designed to split and enervate her opposition, then it stands to reason that she removed Zodiark's heart as well as his total control by also enervating his tempering effect.

Also in 2.0 our WoL picks up a Crystal of Light, hears Hydaelyn's voice, and is then shown the falling stars. She refers to us as crystal bearer, and tells us we must journey to find the other crystals. Once that concludes, the next we hear from her, is when she directly intervenes in the fight Ultima Weapon in Praetorium. She enervates it and removes its armor's integrity. Then she also allows us to combat Lahabrea without killing Thancred.

After that it's at 2.55 when she takes Minfilia, which we learn about in 3.x in the Antitower, where Hydaelyn has weakened considerably and had to take in Minfilia to save herself. As of now, that torch was passed to Ryne, with Minfilia's consciousness dying more or less, sorta similar to how Ardbert merges with us. Even they, Minfilia and Ryne, had/have wills that are completely their own. Though if I remember right, Hydaelyn was speaking through Minfilia the first time we talk to her after Antitower. It's fun to think about, but also mildly confusing.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Though if I remember right, Hydaelyn was speaking through Minfilia the first time we talk to her after Antitower. It's fun to think about, but also mildly confusing.

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From memory, when we get the six crystals together in 3.4 and are drawn to the aetherial sea, Minfilia specifically says that the energy given to Hydaelyn from the crystals has made Her strong enough that She can set Minfilia free again. So it seems that She was on the absolute verge of fading altogether to absorb Minfilia in the first place. She certainly doesn't seem to have waited to be at full strength again before releasing her - rather has let her go at the first possible chance.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

If we are not tempered, is it really the Echo that protects us? Of course, it might be that the Echo can be overpowered of by extremely powerful primal, but what if it is something we have not heard about yet?

On the other hand, if it is the Echo, will it protect us from Zodiark?

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Seeing how Arenvald, Zenos and other people have only the echo and they can fight primals just fine it kinda hints that its the echo that does that.

Some of the questions and word choices seem to suggest that this might be a good time to mention:
The game doesn't often take the opportunity to remind us that the Warrior of Light has a whole basket of gifts.

The Echo
The jailbreaking of the soul. It's not necessarily the addition of new powers, but the removal of common limitations. It makes the walls of the soul more sensitive and permeable, allowing them to "resonate" with other souls while deepening the aetherial wellspring. Elidibus has recently revealed that this is a small fragment of the power the "true humanity" once possessed, reclaimed upon remembering the Final Days, a memory forever etched into spiritual aether of those who bore witness.

The Blessing of Light
A result of a mysterious connection with Hydaelyn, often evidenced by hearing Her voice, receiving Her gifts (Crystals of Light), and being granted divine intervention as She casts Her influence through those crystals into the corporeal world at great personal cost. Elidibus has recently revealed that Hydaelyn is always reaching out, and that those who awaken to the Echo are thus immediately swept up in Her call, receive Her blessing, and become Her followers. If anything about is is akin to being "tempered", this is likely to be the source. However, as others have noticed, the Hydaelyn's followers have acted against Her in the past, both indirectly in ways they didn't know would harm Her but She surely would have tried to prevent and deliberately, overtly working against Her.

The "Champion Factor"
Hydaelyn has chosen the Warrior of Light as her "Champion" - a boon we do not understand. Those who realize we have it inevitably have a strong reaction. Lahabrea resolves to toy with us to speed up his plans and destroy us before we can become a threat; Lahabrea and Elidibus both remark that it has been millennia since they have seen one of our kind. Midgardsormr, on the other hand, is furious when he realizes that he is bound to help us - the insignificant ant with no concept of history who just asked him to call off Nidhogg. Though Midgardsormr later admits his misjudgement, he believed we drained Hydaelyn with the "Champion Factor" to pretend to be a hero. Whatever this is, it allows us to interfere with the aetherial realm directly. To draw Crystals of Light to ourselves and keep them radiant. To call upon Midgardsormr and enforce his covenant. I'm rather hoping it's some kind of bitter-sweet hail-mary. Hydaelyn awakening a fragment of an Ancient that She once knew and throwing them into the bedlam hoping that, somehow, they would make the impossible possible.

Just to clarify a couple bits a little more:

The Echo, as revealed in 5.2, is calling back to the power of the Ancients. It allows wielders to bypass the boundaries of the soul and glimpse the memories of others, as well as augments their will so as to withstand attempts at Primal branding. This power, presumably, is limited to those possessing an Ancient's (fragmented) soul, awoken by a starshower triggering memories of the Final Days.

The Blessing of Light is the power bestowed upon those who heed Hydaelyn's call, proportional in strength to the number of Crystals of Light they have manifested. The Warrior of Light (PC) is shorn of this blessing by Midgardsormr during the 2.5 questline and gradually regains it over 3.0's story. It should be noted that not everyone with the Echo is afforded any measure of Hydaelyn's blessing; neither Minfilia nor Krile appear to have manifested any crystals, and thus remain "just" Echo users. Likewise while Elidibus' nascent Echo users from the Crystarium do have the Echo, calling them "Warriors of Light" or saying they have Hydaelyn's blessing is inaccurate (thus far).

Hydaelyn's Champion, if anything official, is likely a title limited to the PC due to their manifesting Crystals of Light of all six elements. While there are others with Hydaelyn's blessing to some degree or another, nobody else has been shown to manifest even two, let alone all six. This is what makes the PC unique and contributes to their consistent victories in the face of impossible odds (in addition to their own over halfway compleat Ancient soul, the Echo, their Soul Crystal(s) granting preternatural combat prowess, and their own talent and training).

As far as tempering goes, again, if we're able to question whether or not we're tempered we probably are not; and even if we are, it's had no observable effect on our behavior. As a primal Hydaelyn should be able to temper people, but due to her anti-primal raison d'etre, isn't likely to influence the behavior of those she tempers. The only person I'd consider truly tempered by Hydaelyn would be Minfilia (as "The Word of the Mother") due to the physical and psychological effects Hydaelyn's influence had on her. (Even then, she is released from such compelled service not too long afterward, though her devotion and the physical changes remain.)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Some of the questions and word choices seem to suggest that this might be a good time to mention:
The game doesn't often take the opportunity to remind us that the Warrior of Light has a whole basket of gifts.

The Echo

The Blessing of Light
A result of a mysterious connection with Hydaelyn, often evidenced by hearing Her voice, receiving Her gifts (Crystals of Light), and being granted divine intervention as She casts Her influence through those crystals into the corporeal world at great personal cost. Elidibus has recently revealed that Hydaelyn is always reaching out, and that those who awaken to the Echo are thus immediately swept up in Her call, receive Her blessing, and become Her followers. If anything about is is akin to being "tempered", this is likely to be the source. However, as others have noticed, the Hydaelyn's followers have acted against Her in the past, both indirectly in ways they didn't know would harm Her but She surely would have tried to prevent and deliberately, overtly working against Her.

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So we know that the echo is something from the old time that awakens if sundered ancient souls see their memories of the final days (which means that the Sahagin priest had the soul of an Amaurotine too) which then could mean that everyone else is a new soul, but of course we know that other cities existed and the people there died before the final days of the world so maybe everyone is an ancient soul but those with the echo are from Amaurotine.

But I believe that Elidibus is not telling the truth with saying that Hydealyn already gives people the blessing just when they receive the echo. We know that not everyone has even heard her yet quite a few people seemingly got the echo now. I am not sure if its ingame but Ardbert and his group also only received those crystals later in their adventure and not at the same time. Yet I doubt that Ardbert only got his echo and crystal at the end. They seemingly traveled together for quite a bit so how would they not see the star shower together that woke up their echo? And if they had the echo and only later got the crystals of light through very great deeds then that goes against what Elidibus said. Also didnt we too had the echo first and the very first crystal much later? And Arenvald seemingly has no crystal as far as we know.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

So we know that the echo is something from the old time that awakens if sundered ancient souls see their memories of the final days (which means that the Sahagin priest had the soul of an Amaurotine too) which then could mean that everyone else is a new soul, but of course we know that other cities existed and the people there died before the final days of the world so maybe everyone is an ancient soul but those with the echo are from Amaurotine.

But I believe that Elidibus is not telling the truth with saying that Hydealyn already gives people the blessing just when they receive the echo. We know that not everyone has even heard her yet quite a few people seemingly got the echo now. I am not sure if its ingame but Ardbert and his group also only received those crystals later in their adventure and not at the same time. Yet I doubt that Ardbert only got his echo and crystal at the end. They seemingly traveled together for quite a bit so how would they not see the star shower together that woke up their echo? And if they had the echo and only later got the crystals of light through very great deeds then that goes against what Elidibus said. Also didnt we too had the echo first and the very first crystal much later? And Arenvald seemingly has no crystal as far as we know.

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I don't think what you're saying is the case either.

As it's been stated Zodiark rewrote the laws. Yet we still haven't found out what those laws were exactly. We also don't know how the new life appeared. Was it similar to how the Empty is being restored by Eden? Did the new life suddenly appear by a Primal that became the will of the star? Did it evolve, were Ancients giving birth to Ancients after the laws were rewritten? Did they become barren after the Final Days? Were they giving birth to "inferior" beings?

EDIT: It appaers an existential crisis occured on the aftermath.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...t?usp=drivesdk

As eventually life did come to pass as Zodiark sowed the seeds for life to begin again. Preservation of their species, or allowing the new to take over.

Also Aumaurot is a CITY, there were Ancients inhabiting the whole planet. The Sahagin priest has part(s) of the soul of an Ancient which the lifestream at least how it worked before Zodiark took souls to the Underworld once they served their purpose. We presume what happens to them is they break apart to form new souls and new life.

The memory of the starshower - was it viewed by EVERY Ancient? I mean if you looked at the dialog from the Cabinet of curiosity, the librarian was only TOLD about it and did not witness the event firsthand. With Ancients all over the world - would not be surprised if not everyone witnessed the event due to various circumstances. Like say sheltering children for example...


As far as Elidibus goes did he say "already" or more like she does the call to see who is worthy of said blessing? She's basically doing "interviews" - till people prove their creds?

I, personally, do not believe that Hydaelyn is tempering people. The Ancients created all manner of things without becoming enthralled to them - Zodiark was the first example of this changing. Because of this, I believe Zodiark to be an abnormality in this regard, one that the Ascians capitalized on when they taught the mortal races how to Summon. So, unless the Dissenters deliberately baked Tempering into Hydaelyn, it's not something she does.

However, if Hydaelyn DOES temper, I suspect that "hear, feel, think" and all that is her command to all of her Tempered. In the words of Elisa Maza from Gargoyles, "I order you to act for the rest of your life exactly as you would if you were not under a spell." This would have the benefit of making her chosen immune to the attempts by others to Temper them, while also ensuring that her chosen have entirely free wills.

Given how many of Hydaelyn's chosen have acted directly against her interests, either she's not Tempering, or she's allowing completely free rein for those she has tempered, or she's engaged in some of the most labyrinthine, wheels-within-wheels plotting imaginable! ("Yessss… By having Saint Ajora summon Ultima, another training ground will be in place for my ultimate pawn, the Warrior of Light, thousands of years from now!" *Steeples fingers and chuckles to herself.*)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I, personally, do not believe that Hydaelyn is tempering people. The Ancients created all manner of things without becoming enthralled to them - Zodiark was the first example of this changing. Because of this, I believe Zodiark to be an abnormality in this regard, one that the Ascians capitalized on when they taught the mortal races how to Summon. So, unless the Dissenters deliberately baked Tempering into Hydaelyn, it's not something she does.

However, if Hydaelyn DOES temper, I suspect that "hear, feel, think" and all that is her command to all of her Tempered. In the words of Elisa Maza from Gargoyles, "I order you to act for the rest of your life exactly as you would if you were not under a spell." This would have the benefit of making her chosen immune to the attempts by others to Temper them, while also ensuring that her chosen have entirely free wills.

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I'm thinking that tempering is a little more complex to just bowing to a primal's power and being enthralled by it. I think it affects the nature of being. Even in Tales from the Shadows it does seem like Emet earnestly at some points of his life decided to just settle down only to life give him some harsh reminders. He's also said so in MSQ. Does it justify killing/sacrificing a portion of the new life or doing what he's doing now? No. But it is to show that there is some resisting to be had or going against the directive. Whether or not is this due to Zodiark being sundered is rather debatable.

So I think the argument about people going against Hydaelyn needs more...specifics since she's also been weakened as well. I say this because the WoD(L - the First counterparts) went against her will but this was after the flood of light happened. Regardless of the Ascians involvement in having a way to siphon the flood that became their advantage for the calamity, I do feel there is something to be said about having "too much" in any aspect.

As far as tempering, not sure if it's done at the moment or later. Since we have learned Echo is separate from her blessing. The nature of the tempering is probably more aspected to the primal and its element.

If Elidibus isn't lying - what he's showing is the signal is always on. What WE are learning is she is being specific in her choosing. I mean he basically forced the connection to cause havoc. That doesn't mean Hydaelyn does it willy nilly. I mean okay, he could be lying, but he could have just made an entire world illusion with the Starshower as far as I know to get people to become heroes I guess. It's interesting his demo was mostly the Crystarium enough to cause troubles, but like I said in another thread, I don't think it's *that* simple (cuz if it is, I'm gonna have a big stink about how downhill the writing has gone for something that could have happened at ANY time).



Hydaelyn as a system was designed to be a failsafe. It makes sense to use certain individuals - ie Ancient souls to help accomplish this. Hear Feel Think it's just about individualism, it's a sort of awakening of our ancient selves. If said signal is always on...why do we need to ALWAYS hear it if tempered or not? "Totally (Hear). Not (Feel). Tempering You(Think)" every time we have a conversation. I mean I guess an argument can be made that she has to do it EVERY time to make sure.

Summarily almost forgot to say, I guess another argument can be made that if she already tempers, she wouldn't need to say it again. Though we're apparently reincarnated multiple times so I wonder why have the signal on all the time if supposedly tempering sticks - ie the Ascians?


As far as everyone being able to hear the voice? I don't believe everyone did. It does show that the population of Ancients is a bit bigger than just the city of Amaurot.


I think she's targeting people with heroic qualities so if the case happens she does Temper it's not exceptionally bad due to her aspect/temperament and aligns with the goal of defeating the dark. It would also make sense not to do it willy nilly, as it's a checks and balances system.

But I guess while I can lean towards no she's not tempering. I can't write it off entirely that she is being selective.

And finally I did also do another batch of screencaps if people don't want to go back and forth to the Inn - the only problem though is the lack of "audio" since there's the scene where people hear her voice and they didn't bother to subtitle it.

https://imgur.com/a/w0C2Wlw

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I'm thinking that tempering is a little more complex to just bowing to a primal's power and being enthralled by it. I think it affects the nature of being. Even in Tales from the Shadows it does seem like Emet earnestly at some points of his life decided to just settle down only to life give him some harsh reminders. He's also said so in MSQ. Does it justify killing/sacrificing a portion of the new life or doing what he's doing now? No. But it is to show that there is some resisting to be had or going against the directive. Whether or not is this due to Zodiark being sundered is rather debatable.

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Did he really thought to settle down? It seems more to me like for a bit he felt hope that maybe some of the new souls can go beyond their restrictions since his son grew up quite big. I honestly see nothing in there that made him think about stopping what he was planning to do, it sounded more like he thought that maybe not everyone was a lost cause.

About Hydealyn: We are not just talking about Ardbert and his group but also WoLs from older times where the crystals of light were also stronger. And we see it with other primals, even if that primal is not summoned at all they still continue to work for their will, even for someone like Ramuh who only wants them safe. I cant just see someone being tempered and then turn around and trying to attack their primal. No tempered ever showed any signs of going that much against their primal and even Emet Selchs plan was always meant to be a win for Zodiark. He outright states that he will kill us if we can contain the Light and if we cant then we are a monster that he can use for rejoining.

Of course Hydealyn can work on a whole different way and her tempering could give us some kind of free will..but then: Why would you even introduce her tempering people if it does not matter at the end at all? That would just be strange.

About us being reincarnated multiple times: Is there evidence for that? We do know that souls can be reborn but I dont remember any cases that WE also lived a couple of lifes since the sundering. Of course our shards may have lived at different times but I dont remember that any of the past WoL are us. Ramza and for example could not have been us because he was keeping Ultima in check, the same with Tenzen. Is there a possibilty that we already fought in the past? Sure! And maybe I forgot those clues but right now I doubt that we have been reborn that often.

Its also still possible that we are tempered, its just that Hydaelyn stands for the value of freedom and thinking for yourself... which in effect would mean that we are acting of our free will, while having the beneficial effects of being un-temperable by others.

Being tempered doesn't take away your free will per say. Just makes you want to do your god's will.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Its also still possible that we are tempered, its just that Hydaelyn stands for the value of freedom and thinking for yourself... which in effect would mean that we are acting of our free will, while having the beneficial effects of being un-temperable by others.

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Of course that could happen but honestly I would find it to be a bad solution. Tempering for the whole game had been something scary and horrible. Seeing the effect it had on people, transforming them into the slaves of the primal, doing everything they can for him.

Saying that Hydaelyn does temper but that her tempering is giving us some other kind of free will just feels too easy and kinda pointless in my eyes. Either go full out and make her temper us with all the consequences it normally has. Or simply show that there can be primals that dont temper thus showing that it was all the work of the Ascians.

There are a few people that say that we are tempered and that also want us to kill her. And I honestly wonder how that would ever be possible because that goes against any cases of tempered people.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Of course that could happen but honestly I would find it to be a bad solution. Tempering for the whole game had been something scary and horrible. Seeing the effect it had on people, transforming them into the slaves of the primal, doing everything they can for him.

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That actually may be the answer for why she sunders then erases people's memories.

As it stands the Ascians that are sundered don't remember being tempered if I remember correctly

That said, if Echo helps us be resistant to it, perhaps a better tolerance afterwards since, in our case we have more of our Ancient soul. Where someone who has less of their ancient self hear the call has less resistance as an Ancient? I mean why are those awakened to the echo more resistant to other primals?

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There are a few people that say that we are tempered and that also want us to kill her. And I honestly wonder how that would ever be possible because that goes against any cases of tempered people.

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I find the former bad reasoning - so what if people want to kill her cuz she's a primal in that sense. People want to kill Alphinaud or other characters for whatever reasoning.

The latter however
This is a more interesting question, though I would say there's something to be said to the personality and will of the primal.

It also may set up for de-powering arc of our Ancient self, could possibly be a nice reset development wise as well so we don't have over inflated ilevels and crazy HP.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

It also may set up for de-powering arc of our Ancient self, could possibly be a nice reset development wise as well so we don't have over inflated ilevels and crazy HP.

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That reminds me, we have that stat-squish scheduled for 6.0 don't we.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

...Tempering for the whole game had been something scary and horrible. Seeing the effect it had on people, transforming them into the slaves of the primal, doing everything they can for him.
...

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I mean, it would be still a pretty harrowing revelation. It would just mean that there are different shades to the process, most primals using - either by design, or of their own will (Ramuh kinda contradicts this though) - the most extreme version, fully overwriting the will of the recipient.

They could also play around with the definition of free will. Are we truly free, if we are forced to be free by Hydaelyn?

It might also open up the door to tempering being reversible... which is a pretty horrific thought, given how many we've killed by default.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

It might also open up the door to tempering being reversible... which is a pretty horrific thought, given how many we've killed by default.

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Not that horrific; it's the sort of thing that's happened time again throughout history. A disease is cured, but that does no good for the folks that died even minutes before the cure was found.

Right now, the Tempered are slain because even when locked up, their prayers strengthen the Primal they are tempered to (just like the imprisoned dragons on Dalamud supported and powered Bahamut). They are incurable by any known methods, so cannot be rehabilitated. Execution, while a sad and regrettable thing, is absolutely necessary.

Discovering a cure doesn't really diminish that necessity (unless, perhaps, the cure is something stupidly obvious that folks reasonably should have tried). "This was how we had to deal with Tempering in the past, but thankfully, those days are now behind us."

Probably more tragic is the fact that we might need to kill more Tempered even AFTER a cure is found, out of simple self-defense. If a Tempered is trying their best to stab us to death, subduing them non-lethally simply may not be an option. The same justification we use to kill Garlean conscripts - they may be in a bad place, but self-preservation comes first.

So, what happened to the heretics of Shiva - since they were also involved with the summoning, though Iceheart was the "core" or vessel.

I know this may seem like a separate question, but it's related to the discussion about the behaviors of those tempered.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

It also may set up for de-powering arc of our Ancient self, could possibly be a nice reset development wise as well so we don't have over inflated ilevels and crazy HP.

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If we even get huge powers from the blessing. When Middy took away the blessing we seemingly still beat up everything that was in our way. And we only got stronger since then. We are powerful but other people are also powerful even without any blessing (or even the echo) so I would find it strange if that is suddenly the reason for most of our strenght.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

It might also open up the door to tempering being reversible... which is a pretty horrific thought, given how many we've killed by default.

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Is it really that horrific? Of course in hindsight (if there was a cure) we might have just saved all of them but thats the thing about hindsight. Its something we only know when it happens and then cant be used to change the past. Its like after war when you are able to fully oversee the whole battles and say: Well that leader did a horrible mistake here and could have saved their people if they just did x. While its different in the situation itself, where actions are done fast and not everything is known.

These tempered are a huge danger. They will always try to further the goal of their primal. Unlike other prisoners they wont feel regret and will do anything to get free. This is a huge risk. Keeping them around will just endanger even more people for a solution that might never come.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

snip.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

snip.

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A neccessity? Absolutely. Hindsight? Yep. Would it still wreck most well adjusted peoples minds with guilt? Most likely.

The difference in the examples you provided, is that here, we are actively killing people who may or may not have become tempered willingly. Compartmentalization and raitonalization is nice and all, but even trained people have issues dealing with psychological issues akin to this.

It would probably weigh on the Scions mind for a spell, if not the players themselves.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

If we even get huge powers from the blessing. When Middy took away the blessing we seemingly still beat up everything that was in our way. And we only got stronger since then. We are powerful but other people are also powerful even without any blessing (or even the echo) so I would find it strange if that is suddenly the reason for most of our strenght.

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We do know that the Blessing is different from Echo. As far as we know the Blessing could be tempering. If Middy took away our blessing then we are no longer tempered.

But if we are tempered, then it seems the only way to get rid of it is to "sunder" "die" or have a memory wipe done.

As it stands we are 9/14ths of our Ancient self, and if we indulge in the FUD argument. If we're still that weak - then we pretty much have nothing to worry about in regards to Zenos...yes?

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Is it really that horrific? Of course in hindsight (if there was a cure) we might have just saved all of them but thats the thing about hindsight. Its something we only know when it happens and then cant be used to change the past. Its like after war when you are able to fully oversee the whole battles and say: Well that leader did a horrible mistake here and could have saved their people if they just did x. While its different in the situation itself, where actions are done fast and not everything is known.

These tempered are a huge danger. They will always try to further the goal of their primal. Unlike other prisoners they wont feel regret and will do anything to get free. This is a huge risk. Keeping them around will just endanger even more people for a solution that might never come.

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Asking again, what actually happened to Shiva's heretics?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

So, what happened to the heretics of Shiva - since they were also involved with the summoning, though Iceheart was the "core" or vessel.

I know this may seem like a separate question, but it's related to the discussion about the behaviors of those tempered.

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Arrested by Ishgard. Or at least turned themselves in. What the Ishgardian justice system plans to do with them is uncertain, but given the "kinder gentler Ishgard" post-Heavensward, it may be more like prison work than straight execution. (Obviously still very unpleasant, but not directly killed.)

None of them were Tempered, which was a point made when they turned themselves in, and apparently a surprise to the Ishgardians sent to bring them in as well.

EDIT: Double-checked, and the heretics got a general amnesty. So no actual punishment, assuming they laid down their arms.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Arrested by Ishgard. Or at least turned themselves in. What the Ishgardian justice system plans to do with them is uncertain, but given the "kinder gentler Ishgard" post-Heavensward, it may be more like prison work than straight execution. (Obviously still very unpleasant, but not directly killed.)

None of them were Tempered, which was a point made when they turned themselves in, and apparently a surprise to the Ishgardians sent to bring them in as well.

EDIT: Double-checked, and the heretics got a general amnesty. So no actual punishment, assuming they laid down their arms.

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Thanks.

I asked since there are some interesting parallels

Also seems to be repeating a bit in the Eden raid with Shiva/Hydaelyn

between the elements closely aspected to the dark/light.

Ramuh himself isn't "evil" but his summoners can't help to be tempered. Then you have Shiva which was born out of protection/(peace for the dragons) from the thoughts and prayers of Iceheart and her cult.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

We do know that the Blessing is different from Echo. As far as we know the Blessing could be tempering. If Middy took away our blessing then we are no longer tempered.

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But we do know that people like Arenvald dont have the blessing (they dont have the crystals) and are still able to resist tempering. And Zenos 100% has no blessing and his echo can also resist primals and even control them. This is quite some evidence that its the echo that helps. I also doubt that Middy would block something off that keeps us from being tempered. He wanted to test us not sent us out to die. And since he could not know if we do face a primal in that time it would be a bit stupid to take that protection away from us. Also none of the Ascians tried to take over our body while we had no blessing which implies to me that they simply could not because the echo was sitll there preventing them from doing it.

Is there evidence that memory loss takes away tempering? Of course if they died once then it could be that they need to be tempered again which would mean that Zodiark still has enough influence to temper someone. Which makes it a bit strange. Because the people that he wants to temper would have the echo since they got awoken again. Of course it could be that these shards then lower their guard and be tempered on their own free will but again that would mean that Zodiark is still in some way able to temper.