Thoughts on class changes?

Since oddly enough there is no discussion about it yet, and the patch notes are out.

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.
BLM and WHM AoE nerfed for less than 4 targets. Yuppy.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Since oddly enough there is no discussion about it yet, and the patch notes are out.

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.
BLM and WHM AoE nerfed for less than 4 targets. Yuppy.

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Ummm. You misread those. BLM and WHM were buffed, not nerfed...

The reduction of potency is fixed to 25% of max potency after the first mob. aka the skills do 75% damage to all additional enemies. Not 25% dmg to all additional enemies.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Since oddly enough there is no discussion about it yet, and the patch notes are out.

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.
BLM and WHM AoE nerfed for less than 4 targets. Yuppy.

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From what I read, those changes were buffs. Unless I somehow misread it, tbh everything seems really meh to me.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Ummm. You misread those. BLM and WHM were buffed, not nerfed...

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No. It's a fixed reduction of 25% after the first enemy. So "10% less for the second, 20% less for the third," now becomes 25% less. Only from the 4th target on it's a buff.

I actually read it as a buff too at first, but someone made me notice it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Since oddly enough there is no discussion about it yet, and the patch notes are out.

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.
BLM and WHM AoE nerfed for less than 4 targets. Yuppy.

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RDM changes are honestly a joke. +20 potency to 2 CDs and +20 potency to aero/thunder. This won't be enough to bring them even up to BLM, or SMN (post nerf) And then SMN being too strong... So cut 5 potency off the 2 dots. I honestly don't know where they even get their information when it comes to the balance. But I guess RDM is probably intended to suffer cause they bring the instant cast raises and heals as needed for 'support'

The changes seem pretty inconsequential.

Meh.

That's it.

I STILL think they're going at it from the wrong perspective with Red Mage.

The Base Potency for Jolt + VerSpell combos is the wrong way to go about it. That affects the base power of the job all the way up through the levels and ends up making RDM overly powerful on the way up the levels, but ends up doing little for the job at the upper levels.

I've been saying for some time now the key to increasing 80th level RDM damage without affecting the lower levels is to increase the amount of Black and White Mana gain. At lower levels the Melee Combo is too insignificant to show a vast improvement. But at 80th level where you're talking the full Melee Combo and Verholy/Verflare + Scortch it is significant enough to make a difference with more of these combos.

PLUS it allows RDM to use Enchanted Reprise more often as one of the problems with Red Mage is that many times you can't stay in one place long enough to build your gauge and being able to use Enchanted Reprise long enough to get to a more stationary spot would be a huge help.

That said...

The change to Contra Sixte no longer having depreciating damage per target will do wonders for RDM AoE. That part is HUGE.

The changes are so minor I just...don't even understand? Were WARs upset with SiO? I've never heard of anyone complaining about it, the RDM "buffs" (I use this sarcastically) again very inconsequential I was really looking forward to dust off my RDM and blow everything up. As for the SMN nerfs...that's a nerf? They're still obscenely over powered unless I'm missing something?

I woke up with low expectations and time to go back to bed, these changes weren't even a bandaid they were just thrown at the wall with a tiny tiny dart and they said "yes we must not upset the balance" I'd like to know what world they're living in.

That's light adjustment for a patch with a new raid cycle

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Originally Posted by AsukaAsakura

RDM changes are honestly a joke. +20 potency to 2 CDs and +20 potency to aero/thunder. This won't be enough to bring them even up to BLM, or SMN (post nerf) And then SMN being too strong... So cut 5 potency off the 2 dots. I honestly don't know where they even get their information when it comes to the balance. But I guess RDM is probably intended to suffer cause they bring the instant cast raises and heals as needed for 'support'

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Will have to see how it plays, but yeah they're never going to let RDM get even remotely close to BLM numbers, lol. It needs to be on par with SMN though, rough similar utility and such. Guess we will shall see if those SMN nerfs are enough, may seem small but we keep those dots do add up on the long run since we keep them up all the time.

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Originally Posted by Awful

The changes are so minor I just...don't even understand? Were WARs upset with SiO? I've never heard of anyone complaining about it, the RDM "buffs" (I use this sarcastically) again very inconsequential I was really looking forward to dust off my RDM and blow everything up. As for the SMN nerfs...that's a nerf? They're still obscenely over powered unless I'm missing something?

I woke up with low expectations and time to go back to bed, these changes weren't even a bandaid they were just thrown at the wall with a tiny tiny dart and they said "yes we must not upset the balance" I'd like to know what world they're living in.

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As a Warrior main, I didn't have a huge problem with SiO but I did feel it lacked a little in comparison to DRK's Blackest Night and PLD's overall defensive buffs. It's a nice small change.

No I can't say that.

Honestly Red Mage utility is vastly superior to SMN in utility. Having tried to pull off the same kinds of things with Summoner that I can with Red Mage is an exercise in futility.

Embolden is way stronger than Devotion as it starts off more powerful and it lasts longer. Healing with High level SMN is an exercise in futility... but dual casting VerCure as Red Mage does actually work well. Its a 350 potency heal but dual casted its 700, and even though its not as strong as a full Healer. Its way better and actually works to keep a tank alive in an emergency situation... SMN Physic does not.

I can Raise 5 people in a party with RDM very quickly. 3 of them instantly because all of the RDM VerRaises are instant. Then with a Super Ether and Lucid Dreaming two more.

I can't even approach that level of efficiency with SMN, I can only quick cast one of then its... whip out Titan to Stoneskin myself and hard cast Ressurection for an excruciatingly long casting time.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

As a Warrior main, I didn't have a huge problem with SiO but I did feel it lacked a little in comparison to DRK's Blackest Night and PLD's overall defensive buffs. It's a nice small change.

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I can understand that but Divine Veil is only 10% of their max HP vs SiO which was 12% baseline now it's gonna be 15% which is quite an increase, it didn't need to be touched but it's nice to get it for free. My only complaints with WAR is Onslaught using gauge, Storms Eye having it be refreshed since no other tank has to do it, and Nascent Flash requiring a target, I was hoping they'd add some QoL to WAR in these departments but ah well SiO buff is always welcome, not asked for but nice.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.

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The AoE buff is actually fairly large due to Contre Sixte no longer having any damage fall off. It used to be 380 potency on the primary target and only 50% of that on additional targets, now it's 400 potency on all targets. Against a conservative 3 targets that an increase of 440 potency per use, and it increases in potency by a whopping 210 potency for each target past that. Against 4 targets that's a 650 potency increase from before, against 5 targets 860 potency increase, and so on. If you can get an 8 mob pull that's a massive 1490 potency more than we were getting before. Dungeon DPS for RDM is going to go up fairly decently with this change especially with full pulls, since Contre Sixte is already typically my third highest dps source in a dungeon, only beat out by Impact and Enchanted Moulinet.

I'm not super versed in calculating expected dps outputs based on potency changes, but from my napkin math this change to Contre Sixte looks to put it roughly on par with Enchanted Moulinet in terms of how much damage it will output during a run. I calculate based on some of my most recent runs that once you include the changes to Fleche, Verthunder and Veraero it's roughly a 6-7% increase in DPS during dungeons.

Against single targets like in raids or trials you're correct, since it won't be as much since it's only a 20 potency increase for Contre Sixte in that case. I still figure it will be about a 2% increase to our dps in that situation once you include the other 3 spells as well.

- Red Mage buffs are... okay but may still be too little given how laughably insignificant the "nerf" to Summoner was.
- Of all the things Warrior needed, buffing Shake was not even on the list.

Perhaps the biggest slap, though not one unexpected, is nothing for the Range DPS. They're far too weak given how little their mobility actually gets utilized in a fight. Machinist is supposed to be the selfish DPS of the role yet even Red Mage slaps it around. While I still maintain their should be some max for their mobility, it shouldn't be the ridiculous amount it is now.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

- Range DPS. They're far too weak given how little their mobility actually gets utilized in a fight. Machinist is supposed to be the selfish DPS of the role yet even Red Mage slaps it around. While I still maintain their should be some max for their mobility, it shouldn't be the ridiculous amount it is now.

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Another loud mouth without a clue, sure our dps is trailing at the moment due to lack of buffs but guess what? changes are possible. Just because someone has a faster car than you doesn't mean your life is ruined.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I can understand that but Divine Veil is only 10% of their max HP vs SiO which was 12% baseline now it's gonna be 15% which is quite an increase, it didn't need to be touched but it's nice to get it for free. My only complaints with WAR is Onslaught using gauge, Storms Eye having it be refreshed since no other tank has to do it, and Nascent Flash requiring a target, I was hoping they'd add some QoL to WAR in these departments but ah well SiO buff is always welcome, not asked for but nice.

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10% of a Paladin's Max hp is about a 14.6k shield. A dps or healer would need 97k hp to get the same from 5.2 SiO versus 121k from 5.1 SiO.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

No. It's a fixed reduction of 25% after the first enemy. So "10% less for the second, 20% less for the third," now becomes 25% less. Only from the 4th target on it's a buff.

I actually read it as a buff too at first, but someone made me notice it wasn't.

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I mean, yes, but I find that generally I'm either targeting one thing with Misery during a boss fight (in which case this changes absolutely nothing) or I'm targeting one of about eight mobs all huddled into a pile trying to chew on the tank's face after a wall-to-wall pull, in which case this ends up being a net buff in terms of damage to the entire cluster. In the scenario where you have only a handful of mobs, yeah, it's a nerf, but I think in common use cases—at least in my common use cases—it's going to work out as worst-case a total wash, and best case a buff.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Since oddly enough there is no discussion about it yet, and the patch notes are out.

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.
BLM and WHM AoE nerfed for less than 4 targets. Yuppy.

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At least RDM got one. SE just sealed BRD to being the lowest dps, and not by a particularly narrow margin, for another full raid tier.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I can Raise 5 people in a party with RDM very quickly. 3 of them instantly because all of the RDM VerRaises are instant. Then with a Super Ether and Lucid Dreaming two more.

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I cant think of a situation where raising 5 people in a row was a good sign...

The description for the Whm/BLM changes felt a little ambiguous.
Is it that it now does 100% damage for the first enemy and 75% for the rest?
Which would mean a buff after a couple of enemies.

Or it is that its 100% then 75% then 50% then 25%? Because that would be a nerf.

RDM and SMN I don't know the maths well enough to see how much of difference these changes make and will wait for the actual raid averages.

I didn't expect to see anything positive healer side as SE have yet to comment on the complaints. I'm just hoping the white mage this is a buff not a nerf, because they love nerfing its DPS as they have done to holy several times over already.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I cant think of a situation where raising 5 people in a row was a good sign...

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I think I’ve seen that alliance in Copied Factory runs once or twice...

(Side note: your character avatar briefly confused me from on my phone, and I thought “wait, I don’t remember posting that”. Clearly, you have excellent aesthetic taste when it comes to character design!)

I had few expectations and yet SE still managed to disappoint me. The Red Mage buffs are a joke. SE proving again and again how horrible they are at class balance. Guess I will continue to just sub for 30 days and unsub for the remaining time till the next story patch. The story and raids/trials are the only good thing about this game.

There is nothing to talk about. Devs really are showing their unwillingness towards job adjustments. No AST changes, and put no effort to bring physical range jobs' gap closer to the rest DPS jobs.
The RDM change is like adding a 1 to your damage number, while the SMN nerf is like minus 1 to your damage number. Both serve little to no impact. WAR change is basically saying, "Um yeah, here is tank adjustment that changes nothing; but it's a buff, so shut up now."

While RDM is lowest among casters, physical range jobs are even lower than that. I think I will have to switch to melee or SMN for high end.

I'm not sure if the balance team had some kind of grudge against players dislike adjustment in the past few years or what. It feels like they are trolling hard because this is zero effort.

I like how random that shake it off buff is, like wat do they even mean by that.
Why not give warrior a nascent flash self cast only i dont understand, why they have not changed this annoying ability.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I cant think of a situation where raising 5 people in a row was a good sign...

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No disagreements here,

I just happened to have been in "those" parties in Copied Factory before. You know the party full of first timers? You do kind of expect it since they're new, but sometimes they really get wrecked a lot. I've also done it in Ridoranna Lighthouse and Orbonne as you tend to see it there too.

Sure your DPS goes into the tank on those runs, but what else can you do?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I like how random that shake it off buff is, like wat do they even mean by that.
Why not give warrior a nascent flash self cast only i dont understand, why they have not changed this annoying ability.

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Yeah seriously, I guess they don’t want to make warrior self efficient? My guess they really don’t want to go back to the days of HW where Warrior was a monster with blood bath.

I miss blood bath so much.

Calling the Foul change a "nerf", is disingenuous. It's about an 8% potency loss for 2-3 monsters, 4% for 4, equal at 5, a 5% buff at 6, and then it continues to grow larger from there. So it's a nerf to smaller groups, but it ends up being a sizeable buff for larger groups. Now on to RDM.

RDM has more utility than the majority of DPS classes, especially during progression (and ESPECIALLY if you do pugs). If the dev team's goal is to have decent balance while also retaining the uniqueness of the various jobs, then RDM shouldn't ever have super competitive, single-target DPS with a job that has limited utility. That means that limited buffs are probably the best avenue of approach. Buffing Fleche and Veraero/thunder by 4-5% was probably enough to bring them close to what the dev team wanted. Also, as someone pointed out earlier, removing the falloff from Contre-Sixte is a significant buff to RDM AoE, but that's more of a niche/dungeon buff.

None of which particularly matters, imo. There are certainly some classes that could do with some love, but shifts to the meta should really only affect people aiming for world firsts. Everyone else can play whatever they want and are able to clear any content, assuming that they know the fight and how to play their class well.

Long story short, if you're someone that's gonna have a cow about every single change, then please at least know what you're talking about.

EDIT: typos and stuff

Thank god they had the foresight to not tell us the class changes ahead of time.
I don't think I could have handled this level of changes without more time to mentally prepare myself /s

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Sure your DPS goes into the tank on those runs, but what else can you do?

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https://media0.giphy.com/media/wKiZe...&rid=giphy.gif
Let it burn

RDM main here. Our damage will never be on the level of BLM or SMN. And it shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by AsukaAsakura

RDM changes are honestly a joke. +20 potency to 2 CDs and +20 potency to aero/thunder. This won't be enough to bring them even up to BLM, or SMN (post nerf) And then SMN being too strong... So cut 5 potency off the 2 dots. I honestly don't know where they even get their information when it comes to the balance. But I guess RDM is probably intended to suffer cause they bring the instant cast raises and heals as needed for 'support'

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But RDM shouldn't ever be close to BLM. It has group actions/utilities. As far as the distance behind SMN - thats because SMN is still OP.

I truly feel RDM should've gained more, on a lot more skills.
While yes it shouldn't be edging next to BLM in damage, but it 100% should not be just as weaker(but slightly stronger) that the range DPS, who already have their own issues as is.
Then again, MNK is still in a insanely clunky spot as well and SE basically ignored them outside of PvP(where hilariously, they are pretty damn great and fluid).

Now I'm not number cruncher, but I feel that they should do something for some classes in a mid patch update or something.

Need more fight design where each job can outshine the other than just a simple DPS metric imo than just beating up the boss and not that "well you got this trash fight or 1 sub boss for each party" I know it's easier said than done.

I do think the ranged disparity is a bit too big, especially if a person messing up on another job is still getting higher than the ranged.

But other than that it just feels like "everything is passable" rather and leaving it at that than adding in "we're gonna let X job REALLY enjoy this fight" And it shouldn't be like for example "ranged have mobility so let them be the mechanic monkey" that seems to be the way for some of the encounters in raid.

It would also have to let go of the idea X job has to be at the top of every encounter. But yeah...like said easier said than done.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

At least RDM got one. SE just sealed BRD to being the lowest dps, and not by a particularly narrow margin, for another full raid tier.

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This. I've never been a fan of the ~1% passive rDPS relative damage, as it effectively just punishes Bard for unfortunate jump timings or banking songs for AoE opportunities or the like; I'd have much preferred that song choice become more flexible and influential, rather than even less nuanced. What's worse to me, though, is how large the direct damage nerfs were relative to the pittance of indirect damage provided. I can't help but think they could have forgone the nerfs outright, applied the MCH and DNC buffs, and had closer parity between Ranged jobs and all jobs in general.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Since oddly enough there is no discussion about it yet, and the patch notes are out.

RDM buff is so tiny, I don't know what else we could have expected.
BLM and WHM AoE nerfed for less than 4 targets. Yuppy.

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I think the reason they didn't want to release the changes to the public is because.. they didn't actually DO anything. No one's issues were addressed.

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Originally Posted by gman1311

Yeah seriously, I guess they don’t want to make warrior self efficient? My guess they really don’t want to go back to the days of HW where Warrior was a monster with blood bath.

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But Warriors already have that capacity, but with a further half to their healing and a 10% mitigation benefit to another, in any content that matters?

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Another loud mouth without a clue, sure our dps is trailing at the moment due to lack of buffs but guess what? changes are possible. Just because someone has a faster car than you doesn't mean your life is ruined.

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Who looks at this, though, and says "Hrm, RDM definitely needs buffs while Bard need none," seriously?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Who looks at this, though, and says "Hrm, RDM definitely needs buffs while Bard need none," seriously?

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Because they don't look at all jobs together, they take each role and look at them in isolation.
Phys Ranged have a perk in having the least downtime of any jobs, and least affected by mechanics, which is very useful in blind runs and initial prog.
Sure it levels out once everyone's learned the fight properly, but until then, they come out on top, such as my FC's initial E1-4S runs where our MCH was by far the highest damage.
Sure you can buff them at their lull (after initial prog) but that also buffs them at their peak, and then you'd end up with way more Phys Ranged in world firsts.
Unless their buffs were purely to rDPS (which rules out MCH) that is.