Goodbye Ingenuity

Well, that's how they're making the recipes harder. Removing Ingenuity as a skill.

Inner Quiet got a buff allowing it to exceed 3,000.

Innovation got split into Innovation and Veneration. Boosting Touch and Synth skills repsectively by 50%. Wonder if the costs have changed.

Groundwork added- basically Preparatory Touch for Synth. Need to have a certain durability to get full effectiveness. Basically Rapid Synth III returned to the game.

No more Reuse.

Removing ingenuity is hardly a challenge. Unless delicate synthesis and prudent touch get nerfed (they won’t), then it’ll be easy.

I honestly hate that even more crafting skills are being removed and changed. I'm thinking fo really dropping crafting altogether now.

The massive buff to Innovation, the removal of the 3000 Control buff cap, as well as the change to the difficulty penalty for doing higher level recipes (which is what starred recipes are) and the reduction of quality requirements across the board will likely make crafting significantly easier than before. Ingenuity wasn't removed so much as its underlying reason for existing was nerfed (lowering recipe levels) and its effects rolled into Innovation/Veneration. Just more simplifying of the crafting system, for better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

The massive buff to Innovation, the removal of the 3000 Control buff cap, as well as the change to the difficulty penalty for doing higher level recipes (which is what starred recipes are) and the reduction of quality requirements across the board will likely make crafting significantly easier than before. Ingenuity wasn't removed so much as its underlying reason for existing was nerfed (lowering recipe levels) and its effects rolled into Innovation/Veneration. Just more simplifying of the crafting system, for better or worse.

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I didn't notice that they lowered the difficulty on higher level recipes. Ok, so it definitely won't be that bad. Really surprised they did that, though. I wonder what kind of mechanics the Ishgard recipes will have to actually make us have to think about what we're crafting. It would have to be significant to make them difficult and more than just increasing difficulty to unreachable levels.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I didn't notice that they lowered the difficulty on higher level recipes. Ok, so it definitely won't be that bad. Really surprised they did that, though. I wonder what kind of mechanics the Ishgard recipes will have to actually make us have to think about what we're crafting. It would have to be significant to make them difficult and more than just increasing difficulty to unreachable levels.

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We'll have to see of course, but my personal theory is that we'll be crafting less for brute force completion, and more for getting certain conditions to proc. Once they proc then we use the relevant skill to complete quality or synthesis. Or perhaps the proc itself does something. That's honestly the only reason I can think of for them to add more conditions besides poor, normal, good, and excellent.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

I honestly hate that even more crafting skills are being removed and changed. I'm thinking fo really dropping crafting altogether now.

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No need to do that. Keeping your DoH/L leveled up to max is beneficial or at least a QoL boon.

Certainly looks like it'll be even easier now.

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"Due to changes to the crafting system, the required progress and maximum quality of certain recipes have been reduced."
"It is now easier to increase progress and quality for recipes higher than your current level"

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Basically it seems the removal of Ingenuity is being fully accounted for. Add to that an uncapped Inner Quiet (this is an insane buff) and a buffed Innovation and we could end up seeing much higher Quality increases.
I cap around 5591 Control with max Inner Quiet and NQ vendor food. After the patch, I'll reach 7771 with max Inner Quiet, plus a 50% Innovation boost. This makes something like Great Strides -> Innovation -> Prep Touch -> Great Strides -> Brygots, look rather crazy.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Certainly looks like it'll be even easier now.



Basically it seems the removal of Ingenuity is being fully accounted for. Add to that an uncapped Inner Quiet (this is an insane buff) and a buffed Innovation and we could end up seeing much higher Quality increases.
I cap around 5591 Control with max Inner Quiet and NQ vendor food. After the patch, I'll reach 7771 with max Inner Quiet, plus a 50% Innovation boost. This makes something like Great Strides -> Innovation -> Prep Touch -> Great Strides -> Brygots, look rather crazy.

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https://imgur.com/a/jvf9mb0

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

No need to do that. Keeping your DoH/L leveled up to max is beneficial or at least a QoL boon.

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Goodn thing that stopping playing a class doesn't suddenly delevel it then.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Goodn thing that stopping playing a class doesn't suddenly delevel it then.

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If the relatively minor changes we're getting to actions is enough to make you stop crafting, I'm really surprised you're playing this game at all. The revamps to combat jobs have been more extreme than the relatively minor changes we've had with crafting.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If the relatively minor changes we're getting to actions is enough to make you stop crafting, I'm really surprised you're playing this game at all. The revamps to combat jobs have been more extreme than the relatively minor changes we've had with crafting.

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It's easy. If they change a class in a way you don't like it anymore, you just put that one class aside and play another, since all combat classes changes are different.
All crafting classes share the same skills, so it's pretty different.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Goodn thing that stopping playing a class doesn't suddenly delevel it then.

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When I said, "Keeping your DoH/L leveled up to max is beneficial", I meant from expansion to expansion. It's worth leveling and moderately gearing up for the quality of life perks, the ability to help out a friend, learn about economies, etc.

If anything, it may end up making crafting less of a time sink (I'm not going to be assuming anything until patch day - that just leads to pointless babble).

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The revamps to combat jobs have been more extreme than the relatively minor changes we've had with crafting.

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Are we playing the same game?

Almost half the entire toolkit has been deleted, exp pretty much tripled, materia rains from sky, rotations massively simplified. It's a fairly major rehaul overall.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Are we playing the same game?

Almost half the entire toolkit has been deleted, exp pretty much tripled, materia rains from sky, rotations massively simplified. It's a fairly major rehaul overall.

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If Whistle rotations were the main crafting experience we were being forced to leave behind, I would understand why people would be up in arms over the simplification, but the majority of people use a fairly similar rotation every single craft. Are people more upset they are no longer gatekeepers of the markets?

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

If Whistle rotations were the main crafting experience we were being forced to leave behind, I would understand why people would be up in arms over the simplification, but the majority of people use a fairly similar rotation every single craft. Are people more upset they are no longer gatekeepers of the markets?

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I really don’t understand why people are projecting their hatred and thoughts onto other crafters with the same cliche “u mad u don’t control the markets m8”? Or the typical “u just wanna hoard Gil all to ur self, u elitist”, it is honestly old at this point.

Is it really so hard to imagine that there are a lot of players (some who actually quit playing the game during Stormblood) that just enjoy the self fulfillment from completing tasks/crafts that take a lot of effort and time to get through? Is it really so hard to imagine that there are people who don’t like things that were once difficult, time consuming, and tedious, (which raises its value) to be turned into a snooze fest where anyone and their mother can do such tasks with ease? (which de values everything)

I honestly cannot understand this part of the community, at all. It’s like, hardcore players try to compromise and be reasonable, etc, but the players who enjoy casual things just do not want to compromise or agree. Just argue, demonize, come up with the same arguments:

“ur elitist”
“cRaFtInG wAs nEvER hArD”
“rNg iS bAd”

And it is honestly sad. That is why I have no hope for these expert recipes. Things will just be the same as always once Stormblood started. I’ll always miss the golden era of ARR + HW crafting, and I will always despise/not respect the new 4.0+ era because of the above mentioned points. Final Fantasy XIV is literally, the only game in existence, with a community, that has an overwhelming majority of players that want anything hardcore related to be pushed out/removed, with no care in the world for those who enjoyed it. And heck, the developers listen to this? Really tired of this nonsense. This is why I sincerely hope to God, that FFXIV has a life span of 5 more years left, and whatever mmo Square has planned next, Yoshida has 0.0000% involvement in. And if he does, do not make him the director. Or it’ll be the same cycle all over again.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

I really don’t understand why people are projecting their hatred and thoughts onto other crafters with the same cliche “u mad u don’t control the markets m8”? Or the typical “u just wanna hoard Gil all to ur self, u elitist”, it is honestly old at this point.

Is it really so hard to imagine that there are a lot of players (some who actually quit playing the game during Stormblood) that just enjoy the self fulfillment from completing tasks/crafts that take a lot of effort and time to get through? Is it really so hard to imagine that there are people who don’t like things that were once difficult, time consuming, and tedious, (which raises its value) to be turned into a snooze fest where anyone and their mother can do such tasks with ease? (which de values everything)

I honestly cannot understand this part of the community, at all. It’s like, hardcore players try to compromise and be reasonable, etc, but the players who enjoy casual things just do not want to compromise or agree. Just argue, demonize, come up with the same arguments:

“ur elitist”
“cRaFtInG wAs nEvER hArD”
“rNg iS bAd”

And it is honestly sad. That is why I have no hope for these expert recipes. Things will just be the same as always once Stormblood started. I’ll always miss the golden era of ARR + HW crafting, and I will always despise/not respect the new 4.0+ era because of the above mentioned points. Final Fantasy XIV is literally, the only game in existence, with a community, that has an overwhelming majority of players that want anything hardcore related to be pushed out/removed, with no care in the world for those who enjoyed it. And heck, the developers listen to this? Really tired of this nonsense. This is why I sincerely hope to God, that FFXIV has a life span of 5 more years left, and whatever mmo Square has planned next, Yoshida has 0.0000% involvement in. And if he does, do not make him the director. Or it’ll be the same cycle all over again.

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With the tools and information thats out, pretty much any crafting system SE tries to put in place will get gutted and turned into a joke eventually by the community. Its accept whats being given to you expert recipes or accept that the difficulty of crafting you enjoy is forever dead. To clarify when I say the community will turn it into a joke I mean by the tools and information that ends up being provided and currently on hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgfYIE38LtY This is the start of information and tools turning crafting into a joke..

Note: *eye twitch*..do other things not messing up his macro

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

I really don’t understand why people are projecting their hatred and thoughts onto other crafters...

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I was asking a question, I wasn't projecting :confused: or assuming anything (especially hatred). All I do in-game is craft and gather, but I don't see the point in lying to myself that it's ever been difficult.

- The old system was the essentially the same as we have now, it just required a longer sequence of key presses.
- The most used rotations are and have been mostly static, not to mention solved and shared on patch day.
- Since ARR, the community has created tools for sharing information and learning the trade, which has been one reason I consider crafting to be "easy" for everyone.

I had crafting macros in ARR.

I lived through Rath's rotation.

I will adjust.

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

Are people more upset they are no longer gatekeepers of the markets?

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The "veteran crafters just want to control the market" thing is a myth. It's been overused as an argument far too much here.

In Stormblood, I remember making anywhere between 100-300k each making Gazelleskin and Twinsilk DoL/DoH white gear in 5.1 when it was outdated. Yes, basic white recipes with mats a retainer gathered that any amateur lv80 could churn out in scrip gear. Same on furniture and other items. If you enjoyed crafting and worked at your gear, there was potential for even bigger profits too. It was a nice time to be both a veteran and an amateur.

In ShB? The best gear in the entire game, Master Recipe 2 star, Facet is about 100-200k, using scrip mats, tome mats and timed nodes. You can't earn more, the pinnacle of crafting is less profitable than making casual stuff in SB. The basic white gear is like, 30k.
The reason is the casual crafters in SB weren't happy with making tens of millions with a little effort. They saw the veteran guy put tens of hours into gear, melds, theorycraft and earn a hundred million and they wanted a slice of that pie, without the work. So Yoshida did it. He handed the pie over to 10000 casual crafters to divide evenly, the market is flooded with competition and you all get crumbs.

The veteran crafter? They still own the market. They're a veteran, they know where the profit is and how to play marketboards. They moved to a new pie and the casual is left with an empty shell of crafting due to their greed. They will never be rich.

My current new macro for crafting 100% hq on new 3 star 35 durability mats. I believe it can be done using nq mats, but I always had at 1 least one HQ. Not really the most efficient, but it worked for me with only 2481 craft and 2281 control. Requires Blood Bouillabaisse and 600ish CP. If anyone has something more efficient, please share. So many prudent touches.

Macro 1:
/ac "Reflect" <wait.3>
/ac "Manipulation" <wait.2>
/ac "Innovation" <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Innovation" <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Manipulation" <wait.2>
/echo <se.3>

Macro 2:
/ac "Innovation" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Veneration" <wait.2>
/ac "Careful Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Veneration" <wait.2>
/ac "Careful Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Synthesis" <wait.3>
/echo <se.7>

Alexa, Play "Time of your Life". Honestly, I haven't checked with the changes, but looking forward to once I have time to settle into MSQ, beast tribes, raids, etc!

These new recipes are pretty easy, and the new practice mats made figuring out a rotation before the simulator sites were updated super quick. I already have a 100% HQ/no HQ mats/no specialist rotation down for the new gear. It uses some pretty tight stats though. My stats before food are 2538 Craft/2501 Control/533 CP and it uses every last CP and pretty much every last point of craftsmanship and control(won't know the exact lower threshold until I can plug the numbers into a sim). The food I use is Popatoes au Gratin NQ since with Ingenuity gone it seems we have a good bit more CP to work with now and I don't need CP food at all!

Rotation is remarkably simple:

Reflect
Manipulation
Innovation
Veneration
Delicate Synth x4
Veneration
Innovation
Delicate Synth x3
Prudent Touch
Great Strides
Innovation
Byregot's Blessing
Veneration
Basic Synth x2

And that's it. Quite possibly the easiest it's ever been to 100% HQ the newest gear.

For those with max melds, this is my current rotation:
Minimum is 537 CP, 2494 Craft and 2529 Control, No Food, No Specialist.
Yup, we don't need Food, Syrup or any HQ mats to craft endgame now.

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/ac "Reflect" <wait.3>
/ac "Veneration" <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not" <wait.2>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Groundwork" <wait.3>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Manipulation" <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Observe" <wait.3>
/ac "Focused Touch" <wait.3>
/echo Macro #1 finished <se.1>

/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Innovation" <wait.2>
/ac "Observe" <wait.3>
/ac "Focused Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Synthesis" <wait.3>
/echo Craft finished <se.3>

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

For those with max melds, this is my current rotation:
Minimum is 537 CP, 2494 Craft and 2529 Control, No Food, No Specialist.
Yup, we don't need Food, Syrup or any HQ mats to craft endgame now.

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Could have told you that someone like yourself with max melds would have no issue crafting 3 star. SE did say they were not making 3 star anymore difficult then 2 star, expert recipes are going to be your endgame. I really hope expert recipes are incredibly hard to HQ, hard as in your going to fail more then you succeed.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

For those with max melds, this is my current rotation:
Minimum is 537 CP, 2494 Craft and 2529 Control, No Food, No Specialist.
Yup, we don't need Food, Syrup or any HQ mats to craft endgame now.

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I completely forgot Groundwork was a new skill. Will have to adjust my rotation.

I also can't believe how much mats are going for on the MB. I crafted a full 480 set for my Sam and had some phantasm mats left over to make some beads, leather and ingots. They were selling for 250k each for fairly easy crafts.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Could have told you that someone like yourself with max melds would have no issue crafting 3 star. SE did say they were not making 3 star anymore difficult then 2 star, expert recipes are going to be your endgame. I really hope expert recipes are incredibly hard to HQ, hard as in your going to fail more then you succeed.

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Even so, it has never been the case where even a max melded crafter could do the current recipes with no food and no HQ mats day one. I've been a more-or-less max melding crafter since HW days and this is the first time I've ever been able to forego all HQ mats and now all food day one of a new crafting tier. I mean, I like easy crafting for the stuff I'm going to be crafting a TON of just as much as everyone else, but these expert recipes better be some crazy bonkers stuff to make up for it. Even the mats that go into the recipes have been toned down considerably this time around with a lot of the chafe cut out like no more whetstones for samurai blades, no more firesand for guns, no older mats used at all, no gems, less alkahests being used for weapons, LEATHERS NOT RELYING SOLELY ON TOME MATS (sorry I just had to shout this because it's about damn time). All in all the recipes are just simpler and more streamlined, just like the crafting itself. As a person who likes efficiency and does have other things to do in the game I like all this, but as a hardcore crafter I do hope we get our asses kicked with expert recipes too.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Could have told you that someone like yourself with max melds would have no issue crafting 3 star. SE did say they were not making 3 star anymore difficult then 2 star, expert recipes are going to be your endgame. I really hope expert recipes are incredibly hard to HQ, hard as in your going to fail more then you succeed.

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If I remember correctly, in Stormblood you couldn't macro the Ala Mhigan set 1-100% even with max melds. You needed a HQ mat or two in there and HQ food, maybe Tea. The mats were harder to obtain, timed nodes took high melds to even attempt HQ, we needed a special fish and Gyr Abanian Alchemics were costly. And max melds were miles harder to get, I sold grade 6 materia for between 1-2 million each back then. We were still theorycrafting and discovering new rotations a month in. And all that was considered easier than HW.
However, like I've said before, it was great for the casual crafter too because the basic lv80 set and furniture sold for more than endgame Master Craft does today. It was rewarding for everyone.

As for max melds, everyone can get them. It's no secret. You simply stockpile the mats for Cunning Craft Syrup and Tinctures with Retainers. When they're starred on Collectible turn ins, spam as many as you feel up to for that day. Repeat any other day they're starred. When patch day finally comes, you're sitting on hundreds of each, completely free. And now we have Extract Materia so you get even more materia just for crafting those collectibles. There's no excuse besides being too lazy.

Remember too my rotation is No food, no specialist, no syrup. Add a NQ vendor food, barely 1-3k each, or make your Alkahest HQ using Ryaz's rotation and the requirements shoot down.

Expert recipes should not be an endgame. It's a little minigame at best.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's a little minigame at best.

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This....just...this. A mini game with pointless rewards, at that. I don’t think I’ve ever in my life had such low amounts of respect for a developer like I have for Yoshida. I mean, Konami is even worse but.....wow.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

This....just...this. A mini game with pointless rewards, at that. I don’t think I’ve ever in my life had such low amounts of respect for a developer like I have for Yoshida. I mean, Konami is even worse but.....wow.

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Guy turns around an entire mmo and makes it one of the most popular MMOS out there, yet he's not worthy of respect because he doesn't satisfy your crafting needs. I means seriously... talk about entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Guy turns around an entire mmo and makes it one of the most popular MMOS out there, yet he's not worthy of respect because he doesn't satisfy your crafting needs. I means seriously...

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Posts like yours are exactly what I’m talking about....the guy basically becomes a sellout during 4.0 and turns one of the most impressive and innovative crafting systems of all time into a casual snooze fest. Look, I’m not here to argue. We clearly disagree and don’t like each other, please stop lol.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

Posts like yours are exactly what I’m talking about....the guy basically becomes a sellout during 4.0 and turns one of the most impressive and innovative crafting systems of all time into a casual snooze fest. Look, I’m not here to argue. We clearly disagree and don’t like each other, please stop lol.

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ignore him lol let him worship his daddy yoshida in peace UwU

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

Posts like yours are exactly what I’m talking about....the guy basically becomes a sellout during 4.0 and turns one of the most impressive and innovative crafting systems of all time into a casual snooze fest. Look, I’m not here to argue. We clearly disagree and don’t like each other, please stop lol.

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Buddy, this game hasn't sported anything more than WoW crafting with extra steps, ever.

Games 7-8 years older have sported more innovative systems.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Buddy, this game hasn't sported anything more than WoW crafting with extra steps, ever.

Games 7-8 years older have sported more innovative systems.

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So that justifies over simplifying it to WoW’s extent?

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

So that justifies over simplifying it to WoW’s extent?

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No.

But it does show the limit of one's scope.

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Originally Posted by LostCroisanf

ignore him lol let him worship his daddy yoshida in peace UwU

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Grow up, kid. I don't worship Yoshida. I just recognize he did something that had never been done before by rebuilding a failed MMO from scratch and making it successful. Just because one or two parts of the game don't live up to my expectations doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to ignore those achievements and act like he's the worst thing ever. I'm not that self-absorbed.

@Nandrolone: I don't feel one way or another about you honestly. I don't know you and you don't know me outside of this forum. *shrug* I don't even have a problem with you having a different opinion. It's the condescending attitude towards others with different opinions I don't like. But you're right. Let's stop.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Games 7-8 years older have sported more innovative systems.

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What games and what made their crafting systems so interesting/innovative compared to what we have in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

So that justifies over simplifying it to WoW’s extent?

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It's not even close to being as simple as WoW's crafting system. Crafting in WoW was get mats, press a button, done. You could do it completely naked. Blizzard made it harder to get recipes than to do the actual crafting (frequently you had to be a raider on top of being a crafter).

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

What games and what made their crafting systems so interesting/innovative compared to what we have in FFXIV?

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Star Wars Galaxies.

Resources had varied stats and temporary windows to gather - This meant "Iron" was more suitable for different crafts based on what it rolled. Part of the crafting game was the search for good materials instead of playing whack a mole. Pushed players out into the world and to explore it.

Everything decayed and wore down, and eventually needed replacing,even gear.

Crafting was both manual and automated, and in the system as it was designed, a crafter designed item attributes and colors to their own specifications, and not a binary "useful/ useless" scale. Manual crafting was done with special materials, or to create a blueprint to be used in automated crafting. Both manual and automated crafting were parts of the process.

For example - Some recipes required ten "identical" components, and you cannot manually craft identical components. You made a blueprint to do that even if you manually craft the final product.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Guy turns around an entire mmo and makes it one of the most popular MMOS out there, yet he's not worthy of respect because he doesn't satisfy your crafting needs. I means seriously... talk about entitlement.

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So far this expansion for me he's:

-Wrecked the Hunt completely, turning it from a server community activity into this business-like mess where trolls thrive, everything below ShB isn't worth doing and you rarely make friends or get to meet others on your own realm.
-Simplified tanking to a very basic melee dps and healing to an extremely basic 2 button caster that occasionally heals.
-Wrecked crafting.
-Has set a hard stance on any sort of performance gauging tools, even for personal improvement use in high level raiding.
-Removed a dungeon per patch, failed to deliver on BLU, failed to add a new healer, refused to add a third free retainer, won't deliver the Relic until 5.3 and has no plan for a Deep Dungeon.

So while FF14 is my preferred MMO, I've lost some respect for the developer and will continue giving my personal feedback and opinions.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Buddy, this game hasn't sported anything more than WoW crafting with extra steps, ever.

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No.

All I'll say there is I left WoW entirely to join FF14 just because the crafting was that much better. WoW's crafting is pathetic. It's beyond terrible.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

No.

All I'll say there is I left WoW entirely to join FF14 just because the crafting was that much better. WoW's crafting is pathetic. It's beyond terrible.

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It's a mini-game, with one puzzle per tier, and that puzzle gets solved within an hour of release, and after that puzzle is solved, it's just WoW crafting that takes longer.