Tanks Not Using Emnity Skill.In Dungeons

A friend of mine who started playing in the autumn when I returned after taking a break at the end of Heavens Ward has found several times times in the early leveling dungeons that tanks at sync level aren't using their emnity boost skill (Iron Will, Defiance, etc.) even after being asked more than once, or sometimes they turn it on the off again.

He just left a party as healer because emnity was all over the place and healing a nightmare due to the tank refusing to use Defiance. This was in Tam-Tara but he's had as high as Halatali at least.

I've not done any low dungeons for a long time so haven't see it myself. Apart from being a jerk, is there any valid reason for this, it certainly wasn't a 'thing' when I was playing last time.

Newbies who don't understand how it works. I've seen tanks who seem to toggle it on/off with each pull, apparently thinking it's an ability they need to use every pull.

I have seen a few cases where a tank who's level synched forgets that the synch turns off the stance. A friendly reminder is usually enough.

IF they're refusing to use it at all, then they might still be operating on the idea that the stance reduces their damage. That was removed in 5.0, but a returner might've missed the note.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

A friend of mine who started playing in the autumn when I returned after taking a break at the end of Heavens Ward has found several times times in the early leveling dungeons that tanks at sync level aren't using their emnity boost skill (Iron Will, Defiance, etc.) even after being asked more than once, or sometimes they turn it on the off again.

He just left a party as healer because emnity was all over the place and healing a nightmare due to the tank refusing to use Defiance. This was in Tam-Tara but he's had as high as Halatali at least.

I've not done any low dungeons for a long time so haven't see it myself. Apart from being a jerk, is there any valid reason for this, it certainly wasn't a 'thing' when I was playing last time.

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It’s kind of sad that even after Square dumbed down Tank aggro about as far as it can go people are still finding ways to botch it. Ahh well that’s just people I suppose.

Some new players who never played tank before might just be ignorant.
If someone turning stance on and off, it's probably a missclick — saw that a few times, and if not, then just tell them they don't need to press this skill all the time.
I've met one newbie Gladiator in Sastasha who was pretty much oblivious about stance, despite finishing Hall of Novice for tanks (could tell that from her gear). Told her about Iron Will, and things went pretty good from here.
Just ask tanks after first pull, and if it doesn't work, elaborate why they need to turn stance on. That's it. 2 minutes of typing or 20 minutes of suffering — it's an easy call.
Problems starts when it's a level 50+ dungeon, tank don't know what a stance is and just doesn't understand any of 4 languages in autotranslate. There, I'm afraid, only option is either leaving or kicking said tank.

Well, there are few possible reasons:

1. They are newbeyers and don't know yet what is this stance even yet;
2. They forget that the stance drops down when level is synced and should re-enabled manually.

Both can go in combination or separately. As for them ignoring messages in chat... next time this happens check their interface language. Considering you are at Phoenix, you can just bump into French/Deutsch players who doesn't know English. Or can bump into somebody who's from neither of "localized" countries and still doesn't know English. The painful reality of EU servers.

The only weird part is your mention about them turning on and turning off the stance... this sounds like trolling tbh, though there is a possibility they geniunely don't understand what they're doing wrong.

square can remedy this by adding a new trait to tanks that automatically turns tank stance on when your lvl 15 or above and make it so you cant turn it off

Not sure if it's people who are returning and aren't aware that tank stance dancing is not a thing anymore, tanks that forget that going into a dungeon (synched) removes their tank stance or people just being new and not knowing tank stance is a thing.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

square can remedy this by adding a new trait to tanks that automatically turns tank stance on when your lvl 15 or above and make it so you cant turn it off

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That wouldn’t work sadly, it would cause multi tank fights to digress into constant aggro dancing due to both tanks not being able to stop generating threat towards the target. I guess it might work if they retooled shirk and and gave it a smaller cool down, but I think it works pretty well as is.

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

That wouldn’t work sadly, it would cause multi tank fights to digress into constant aggro dancing due to both tanks not being able to stop generating threat towards the target. I guess it might work if they retooled shirk and and gave it a smaller cool down, but I think it works pretty well as is.

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they could make it work for duty finder only, premade groups can turn it off and on for the highend raids

They cant make it to where you always have it on because you cannot shirk a tank who is not in your party so imagine how Alliance raids would go with 3 tanks fighting over aggro.

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Originally Posted by Derio

They cant make it to where you always have it on because you cannot shirk a tank who is not in your party so imagine how Alliance raids would go with 3 tanks fighting over aggro.

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The same as now, but with an excuse?

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

A friend of mine who started playing in the autumn when I returned after taking a break at the end of Heavens Ward has found several times times in the early leveling dungeons that tanks at sync level aren't using their emnity boost skill (Iron Will, Defiance, etc.) even after being asked more than once, or sometimes they turn it on the off again.

He just left a party as healer because emnity was all over the place and healing a nightmare due to the tank refusing to use Defiance. This was in Tam-Tara but he's had as high as Halatali at least.

I've not done any low dungeons for a long time so haven't see it myself. Apart from being a jerk, is there any valid reason for this, it certainly wasn't a 'thing' when I was playing last time.

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It could be for any reason. From my personal experience as a tank, it is from syncing down and forgetting it gets removed.

This isn't a really big trend and as your friend goes throughout the game and goes through dungeons multiple times, they will almost never run into it again. Maybe once or twice more.

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

That wouldn’t work sadly, it would cause multi tank fights to digress into constant aggro dancing due to both tanks not being able to stop generating threat towards the target. I guess it might work if they retooled shirk and and gave it a smaller cool down, but I think it works pretty well as is.

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Naw, just change Shirk to "Trade Places," allowing the MT to shift their currently aggro'd targets to the OT, and vice-versa.

I've seen some newbies confused about how it works or by people calling it by the wrong name but that was easily remedied by a quick explanation. I don't think either situation is remotely common enough to be a widespread issue though.

"Alright guys, here's how it works. You click it." Boom.

Its understandable if the tanks are newer players, but i have seen tanks with old account who were not using their tank stance.
I have met few tanks like these in MSQ, they were not a sprouts, when asked they turned it on for a while then turned it off making run an unbearable and slow mess.
We should be able to report these players who intentionally refuse to commit their role and troll entire team.

I can account for the single time i turned it off but was by accident, my action bar did not toggle when i pressed. At least i noticed it and turned back on.
Toggle it multiple times though could be a variety of things like some have said.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Its understandable if the tanks are newer players, but i have seen tanks with old account who were not using their tank stance.
I have met few tanks like these in MSQ, they were not a sprouts, when asked they turned it on for a while then turned it off making run an unbearable and slow mess.
We should be able to report these players who intentionally refuse to commit their role and troll entire team.

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Might be someone who didn't see the 5.0 aggro changes, and think that keeping his tank stance all the time is bad, really bad for his dps.

He might even be thinking "uh, you never use diversion and want me to stay in tank stance to compensate for your lazyness ? If you are not using your aggro related skills i will not use mine !" XD

Forgot tank stance one time due to sync and I got flamed super hard by a guy in the chat for it. 's not hard to just drop a quick "tank stance" as a reminder, no need to start a riot in the first minute of the dungeon ._.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

We should be able to report these players who intentionally refuse to commit their role and troll entire team.

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There's a kick feature and a report button. I would probably qualify it under harassment and mention that they are keeping the party hostage if they bring a buddy that denies the kick.

When I am healing and I see this, I ask them to leave tank stance on as it's not a toggle.

If they continue, I ask one more time (usually by this time the DPS say something).

If it continues, I eat the 30 minute penalty and go fishing. Not worth my time or frustration.

I've job changed to tank from a non tank job for something like expert roulette and ran through grabbing the first large pull before noticing I forgot to turn on tank stance.

I think its more disturbing I've done this on occasions and not noticed tank stance was off until the pull was dead because I wasn't actually loosing enmity to DPS. Makes me think they aren't doing their job since my name isn't Maple and I haven't sunk all my stats into defense to the point I'm immune to any damage a boss deals and can kill it by eating it... >.>

I've definitely slipped on not enabling it after sync turns it off once or twice. Both times I just got "tank stance" in chat and turned it on replying "thanks". Pretty amicable and smooth after.

I have a tank enmity-related question that I suppose here is as good as anywhere, and may sound horribly noobish, as I'm not a tank player, usually. Say I am the off tank in a trial, and the main tank obviously has their enmity on. Do I bother turning mine on at all during the fight, save for any adds that appear? I only ask because I've been told in trial to do so by some, and not to do so by others, leaving me somewhat confused and second guessing myself. >.<

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

I have a tank enmity-related question that I suppose here is as good as anywhere, and may sound horribly noobish, as I'm not a tank player, usually. Say I am the off tank in a trial, and the main tank obviously has their enmity on. Do I bother turning mine on at all during the fight, save for any adds that appear? I only ask because I've been told in trial to do so by some, and not to do so by others, leaving me somewhat confused and second guessing myself. >.<

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You can easily just turn it on when needed and provoke if the other tank dies. Very few bosses in this game have a mechanic that targets the top two enmity, rather than purely tank roles.

Otherwise you can leave it off if you're not actively tanking.

That's what I thought, but just wanted to be sure. Thank you! :3

Also remember while it has changed. What about all the old guides floating around about proper tanking and making sure you don't lower your dps by having it on. It is not like those guides are updated every expansion. Or the glass is half empty and they are trolls.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

I have a tank enmity-related question that I suppose here is as good as anywhere, and may sound horribly noobish, as I'm not a tank player, usually. Say I am the off tank in a trial, and the main tank obviously has their enmity on. Do I bother turning mine on at all during the fight, save for any adds that appear? I only ask because I've been told in trial to do so by some, and not to do so by others, leaving me somewhat confused and second guessing myself. >.<

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Depends on the fight. Some mechanics have a tank buster that will target the person with the second highest emnity (aggro) in the list. If it's the off tank you pop a cooldown, if you let a DPS take it they'll probably get badly hurt. I like to start the fight without tank stance and turn it on after a few attacks have been used.

When i'm with randoms i sometimes try to build as much aggro as possible so i can shirk to the MT since you never know with random tanks and I figured any help giving them an emnity lead would be nice. However this is still very much debatable since me and my friends are constantly debating this. A lot of people consider it a ahole move to rip aggro off the MT straight off the bat despite the intention being to help them generate a bigger emnity lead in the long run. Probably an old fashioned mindset from when shirk was first introduced and keeping tanks off the tank stance was the main goal if you wanted to push dps in end game content /shrug

Keeping it on as the off tank is okay to do, assuming you go a few rounds without it to let the main tank build up a buffer so you don't accidentally pull hate when you don't want it. Keeping it on like this makes it marginally easier to pick up hate if the main tank happens to die, since it will likely automatically turn to you. That said, it's not necessary by any means since it takes at most a single GCD to get hate if that happens when you haven't been using it. There is some content that requires both tanks be at the top of whatever enmity lists there are, but most don't.

tl;dr - use tank stance as OT or don't, either works for most content.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I have seen a few cases where a tank who's level synched forgets that the synch turns off the stance. A friendly reminder is usually enough.

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I'm guilty of this. Though the reminder usually comes by way of seeing a bunch of green dots in my enmity list ;p

But I agree, a nice reminder that their stance is off should be more than sufficient. It's not something I have to do too often though since I normally tank my roulettes. It has come up on occasion though, and it's never been an issue. They normally say something along the lines of "whups lol" and we carry on.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

square can remedy this by adding a new trait to tanks that automatically turns tank stance on when your lvl 15 or above and make it so you cant turn it off

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Or... Just kick the tank who doesn't want to tank? Reading the skill tooltips it's a player's responsibility anyway. If that player doesn't turn on His/her tank stance after being told 3 or more times, then no one should suffer from It. Just kick It and wait for someone who actually knows it's role

All tanks have, by default, in the HUD, a big ass gauge with an extremely obvious colorful way to tell you if your tank stance Is on. There's no fucking way a player can miss that. And if it does, then we can't really expect too much from It (especially when the game itself explains what It is when we unlock that skill)

I had to move where i have my stance as I'd end up pulling big groups and accidentally turning it off during my aoe combo spam. The only time I've had other tanks steal hate from me is if they go out of their way to use provoke or they have better gear than I do even synced down. Now the thing I tend to see is tanks doing is not using cool downs or using provoke at odd times like on bosses when they clearly should have hate, but it's a boss that acts like the 2nd boss from Quarn. Or a boss that turns around to do a targeted move. That and never using reprisal like ever.

SE can't do much to make it even more idiot proof than it already is. It's already taught in the hall of the novice. Just tell anyone who doesnt understand how it works...how it works. They dont listen? Then kick them, simple as that.

Thats a horrible idea for content with 2 tanks...

Okay, I get it that new players sometimes don't know about the enmity skills even though the Training quest chain should have taught them, that's why I noted that the players doing this are not at the base level for the instance, they're at the sync level so likely this is not their first or second dungeon.

Also, I agree that the dropping of buffs when synced means you can easily forget to re-enable them at the start of a dungeon, I've done that myself at times, but that doesn't explain why the tank in the run my friend left turned it off after turning it on when prodded.

Thanks for the comments, I posted this in case there was a good reason why a tank who after turning this skill on would turn it off, or at times refusing to do so after being asked more than once, would turn it off; the answer seems to be the obvious 'no'.

I run tons of content and this rarely happens. When it does it's usually a new to tanking person. Generally when that happens they'll turn it on after being told they should.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_Lo

I have a tank enmity-related question that I suppose here is as good as anywhere, and may sound horribly noobish, as I'm not a tank player, usually. Say I am the off tank in a trial, and the main tank obviously has their enmity on. Do I bother turning mine on at all during the fight, save for any adds that appear? I only ask because I've been told in trial to do so by some, and not to do so by others, leaving me somewhat confused and second guessing myself. >.<

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Generally what I do if someone else wants to main on these is turn mine on after they do 2-3 enmity rotations. Aside from that there really isn't any reason for either tank to turn it off due to provoke and shirk since it no longer penalizes damage output.

It has to do with how searches work.

If you're new to tanking and search "how to tank better in ff14" all but 2 results on the first page say to go into tank stance to pull threat and then drop tank stance. The two from post-shb dont say the skill changed, and the only one that mentions tank stance at all is buried in a reddit comment. If you're actually wanting to be prepared going in, you'll get significantly outdated information that was all correct for it's time, but isnt now.

What would be fantastic is if tank stances didnt drop on level sync.

I don't tank much anymore, but I'm absolutely guilty of going through entire dungeons with tank stance off because I always forget that syncing lower toggles it and, unlike when I'm playing astro and half of my abilities depend on having a sect on, there's nothing dependent on it to remind me that I don't have it on unless someone says something to me lol. I always try to double-check but sometimes I get too excited and just...don't, rip