All healers need to have a corresponding (maybe limited) job just like SMN/SCH.

Going through solo content as healer is disgustingly boring. There's almost 0 engagement. Only benefit may be that you can enjoy the scenery of a new area better when you're busy spamming that 1 button.

SCH & SMN has a pretty awesome 2 for 1 deal imo, since you could perhaps do solo content (going through expansion for example) with SMN and switch to SCH whenever you need to do an instance. Only potential downside would be that you need different gear for the jobs, but this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I was wondering if perhaps the other healers could also benefit from a 2 for 1 deal? Maybe have PLD merge with WHM, AST with... idk dancer? Or have completely new dps/tank jobs (next expansion perhaps) that level together with corresponding healer job. Necromancer with White Mage would be cool, and Time Mage with Astrologian. OR they could perhaps release them as limited jobs just like blue mage (without level cap) which can't be used in instanced content. So you could use the corresponding limited job in solo content and then switch to the main job for instances (of course I'd prefer them not being limited jobs).

Healers arguably need more complex dps rotation in general, but it will likely never be as engaging as tanks and dps, so they are destined to have a lesser experience in solo content.

Other MMO's like WoW have the specialization system as a solution, wherein every healing class also has a dps spec they can switch to while leveling the same class (gear also adjusts itself when switching between specs IIRC, at least when you are leveling). In ESO every class can be built for each role. In FFXIV you can play all jobs on 1 character which is perhaps the superior system according to most. The problem is that you level each job separately (except for SMN/SCH), which is a good thing of course, except for people who want to main healers.

Leveling 2 jobs at the same time while you are for example going through an expansion would probably be awkward. You could I guess go through whole expansion with a dps/tank and then at the end level the healer (you wanted to main), but that will mean that your first experience in some trials and dungeons won't be played by your favorite role.

What do you think? Would the game benefit for having corresponding jobs for all healers? If so, which jobs (ingame or yet to be released)? How should it work?

SE has already stated that they wouldn't do another SMN/SCH type job. The reason they even could do that is because they have arcanist as their base class and then you can unlock the job SMN and/or SCH. SE doesn't make classes anymore (that was a holdover from 1.0). They just make jobs, so there wouldn't be anything to split from.

As for my own personal preference, I rather like having jobs be their own and not shared. I got SCH leveled along with my SMN that is true, but I have no interest in it nor do I even know how to play it because I just didn't have to level it up. It was a freebie I got along with SMN.

Pretty sure Yoshi-P said that combining SMN and SCH was a mistake and they’re never doing it again.

We used to have cleric stance, which swapped your MND and INT stats and allowed healers to DPS, but it led to a meta the devs didn’t like where healers were expected to stance dance and manage the party’s health bars while maximizing DPS.

I used to main healer and partway through I decided that MSQ was a pain, so I just leveled a DPS on the side. Spend a couple days in PotD/HoH and it will be all caught up.

idk maybe a stance switch which turns some of their heal buttons into more dps spells. That can be their dps spec. Make it so you can't change stance during combat if they want to lock people into healing for party content. Cure III can become the old Aero III. Stuff like that. Tetragram becomes a dps nuke ability with a cooldown, etc

It's not awkward leveling 2 jobs at the same time as long as you're not trying to speed run to level cap. I do it with one of my characters. Instanced content I use WHM (including the solo duties because most of them have greatly reduced DPS requirements for the healer roles) and RDM for everything else. In SB both jobs hit 70 within 5 minutes of each other. This expansion they hit 80 same day a few hours apart. Roulettes, side quests, FATEs and hunt bills all added additional XP to what I was getting from MSQ.

There's no need for 2 for 1 jobs when you can already have multiple jobs at the same time.

Make sure you're using your chocobo companion in the non-instanced content. Its DPS contribution is noticeable once you get it to about rank 8 and only gets better as it continues to gain ranks.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

idk maybe a stance switch which turns some of their heal buttons into more dps spells. That can be their dps spec. Make it so you can't change stance during combat if they want to lock people into healing for party content. Cure III can become the old Aero III. Stuff like that. Tetragram becomes a dps nuke ability with a cooldown, etc

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That seems like a pretty good and easy solution tbh

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

SE has already stated that they wouldn't do another SMN/SCH type job. The reason they even could do that is because they have arcanist as their base class and then you can unlock the job SMN and/or SCH. SE doesn't make classes anymore (that was a holdover from 1.0). They just make jobs, so there wouldn't be anything to split from.

As for my own personal preference, I rather like having jobs be their own and not shared. I got SCH leveled along with my SMN that is true, but I have no interest in it nor do I even know how to play it because I just didn't have to level it up. It was a freebie I got along with SMN.

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Summoner/Scholar weren't hold overs from 1.0 though, nor was Rogue. It's a mystery why they did ROG after ACN other than that this job started at level 1 and they felt a need to maintain the base class BS because of cross-over skills.

Combining the two wasn't a mistake either to them, they may regret it but it was done very purposefully to be lazy and rush the development process. They'd do it again all things considered because they wanted to release the game more quickly and designing 2 separate classes + class quests + unique skills would have taken more time.

Long story short, classes that split into 2 unique jobs is not happening again it was just a situation where they thought it was the best for their development time to release FFXIV ARR quickly.

edit:

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

idk maybe a stance switch which turns some of their heal buttons into more dps spells. That can be their dps spec. Make it so you can't change stance during combat if they want to lock people into healing for party content. Cure III can become the old Aero III. Stuff like that. Tetragram becomes a dps nuke ability with a cooldown, etc

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They nuked cleric stance for good reason, this game already suffers from major issues with what's expected of a healer. Which is DPS, not so much its healing.... well ok, a healer must not let people die but if you ever look up endgame info on a healer it's all about how to heal in between doing DPS as if it's your main job and healing is your side gig. SCH is a great example as we're expected to only heal using the ogcd heals inbetween DPS casts.

Either way, I only get bored of healer for the same reason as OP but that's because healers have so little else to do in realistic leveling/dungeon/endgame situations.

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Originally Posted by Zsplash

Summoner/Scholar weren't hold overs from 1.0 though, nor was Rogue. It's a mystery why they did ROG after ACN other than that this job started at level 1 and they felt a need to maintain the base class BS because of cross-over skills.

Combining the two wasn't a mistake either to them, they may regret it but it was done very purposefully to be lazy and rush the development process. They'd do it again all things considered because they wanted to release the game more quickly and designing 2 separate classes + class quests + unique skills would have taken more time..

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I didn't mean SMN/SCH was a hold over from 1.0, sorry if it sounded like that. I mean the class system was a holdover from 1.0. And that's why they were able to combine SMN & SCH like they did. It was because the class system existed then. And SE did say they thought it was a mistake to do it that way and why they said they wouldn't do it again. It may have been because they were rushing to make 2.0 in only two years time and it was a way to try and get two jobs out of one class, because again they were working with the old class system from 1.0. Personally at the time I didn't mind that they did that, but SE themselves said they would never do it again.

Back then, Scholar and Summoner sharing the same class in particular was a mistake because it was a nightmare for them to balance both. It's why each expansion since then, they've been replacing the class skills they shared with job skills that essentially do the same thing.

Anyway, if you want healers to be more engaging in combat, just simply ask for more DPS skills. Healers only have 1 DoT, 1 spell and 1 AoE you spam and it's not fun. That and healers, particularly White Mage, is bloated with healing abilities which it doesn't need plenty of. They should replace that clutter with something for offense.

Just simply adding DPS attacks to spend the blue lilies on would already make White Mage feel better to play.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Back then, Scholar and Summoner sharing the same class in particular was a mistake because it was a nightmare for them to balance both. It's why each expansion since then, they've been replacing the class skills they shared with job skills that essentially do the same thing.

Anyway, if you want healers to be more engaging in combat, just simply ask for more DPS skills. Healers only have 1 DoT, 1 spell and 1 AoE you spam and it's not fun. That and healers, particularly White Mage, is bloated with healing abilities which it doesn't need plenty of. They should replace that clutter with something for offense.

Just simply adding DPS attacks to spend the blue lilies on would already make White Mage feel better to play.

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At this point, there's literally only one class skill that both jobs share. Resurrection.

As of this expansion, they've set up the jobs so that they can completely separate them if they want to, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Just make it so once you get any job to level 30, you can go the marauder's guild and unlock scholar as a stand-alone job.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

At this point, there's literally only one class skill that both jobs share. Resurrection.

As of this expansion, they've set up the jobs so that they can completely separate them if they want to, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Just make it so once you get any job to level 30, you can go the marauder's guild and unlock scholar as a stand-alone job.

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That is just needless effort at this point. How they decided to separate them is effective without actually making the two stand-alone.

I like the benefit of leveling two jobs at once, anyway.

I get where you're coming from but I want to give you a different (my) perspective.

I never play dps because I find the very thought very boring. It doesn't matter for the fun factor whether I have to play finger twister getting my rotations right or whether I only have to spam my two dps spells.

That healers have no dps rotation to speak of fits me just right in that regard because I have to put the least possible effort into the thing I care about the least. In fact I would even prefer it if dungeons became tough enough that healers don't have time to dps.

I also like the thought that the roles that a party depends on the most, are the roles that require the most dedication exactly because solo content can drag on like this. It fits and making the role more accessible just waters down its identity if you ask me.

That's just my view on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Belgianbeer

That healers have no dps rotation to speak of fits me just right in that regard because I have to put the least possible effort into the thing I care about the least. In fact I would even prefer it if dungeons became tough enough that healers don't have time to dps.

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I get you. (Sadly) Though in this game, even in high end content you'll be dpsing at least 60% of the time and healing has almost become redundant in older instances. So whether you'll be doing solo content or any kind of instance, you'll be dpsing most of the time as healer so I can't really see you having a good time in this game gameplay wise.

astrologian has diurnal sect and nocturnal sect

I am never bored as a healer. Guess I’m in the minority

SCH are already the easiest and most prevalent healing job. We don't need another. Alot of sch healers you get are SMN's that just wanted a faster queue. Next healer probably wont be as super easy where almost every single spell has no casting time.

This game allows you to level and play multiple classes. Use it.

You don't have to play the entire game on one job, if that's boring to you. Leveling alts is a big part of the game and you can do that at the same time as the story if you prefer healing in duties. A limited dps job for healers would be pointless because of their lower level cap.

Not to burst your bubble but if you don't find the stuff engaging as a healer, it's honestly not much better as a tank or dps.

I would love more split jobs like SCH/SMN but not simply for the sake of healers having more of an "engaging" experience in solo instances.

If they addressed the healer complaints instead then this wouldn't be a needed solution and if they did, they'd have the double whammy of healers not being boring in 95% of the game's content, where, experienced healers especially, are getting higher downtime and less to do. And they could achieve this with less work versus the OP's solution.

Although on paper it looks like they've shifted to a more healing focus, but the DPS focus is there and if anything, it's stronger than ever but DPSing as a healer nowadays is dull as hell because they've stripped it down. It's kinda counter productive, on the one hand they've increased DPS focus, and the other decreased how much you do to DPS and makes it boring. Thus going against anything beneficial to either side of the "green DPS" debate.


Giving more to do in our downtime like a proper DPS rotation would solve a lot of complaints without raising the skill floor. Because when the content pushes you to heal more then you DPS less. Our current healing toolkit is overpowered for a lot of content, but useful for stuff that pushes us more.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Pretty sure Yoshi-P said that combining SMN and SCH was a mistake and they’re never doing it again.

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Indeed he did, and indeed they won't. The irony about it though, is this system would actually function well in the game today. It didn't previous to 4.0, when we still dealt with allocating stats and Cleric Stance swapping MND with INT. Now, you swap out your stone, and swap out your gear, and it's a done deal. All this really means though is that since it's not broken, they don't have to fix anything.

However, I do agree with his decision for the most part. It's an antiquated system that honestly is very XI-esque.

My first leveled characters was the SUM/SCH classes - and frankly I think having that as an option on a newbie is a BAD idea. I struggled keeping both classes geared all the way up the MSQ. Not to mention, becoming competent at either at a reasonable rate suffered as well.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

My first leveled characters was the SUM/SCH classes - and frankly I think having that as an option on a newbie is a BAD idea. I struggled keeping both classes geared all the way up the MSQ. Not to mention, becoming competent at either at a reasonable rate suffered as well.

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You decided to keep both jobs geared and learn both jobs simultaneously, when you can do only one of them instead, and struggled from it. That's entirely your doing, it's not the class design's fault.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

You decided to keep both jobs geared and learn both jobs simultaneously, when you can do only one of them instead, and struggled from it. That's entirely your doing, it's not the class design's fault.

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troll much?

Didn't YoshiP say the only reason SMN and SCH have shared exp is related to an 'issue' with the coding?
the thing isnt intended to be happening to begin with.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

troll much?

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Lol...what?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not awkward leveling 2 jobs at the same time as long as you're not trying to speed run to level cap. I do it with one of my characters. Instanced content I use WHM (including the solo duties because most of them have greatly reduced DPS requirements for the healer roles) and RDM for everything else. In SB both jobs hit 70 within 5 minutes of each other. This expansion they hit 80 same day a few hours apart. Roulettes, side quests, FATEs and hunt bills all added additional XP to what I was getting from MSQ.

There's no need for 2 for 1 jobs when you can already have multiple jobs at the same time.

Make sure you're using your chocobo companion in the non-instanced content. Its DPS contribution is noticeable once you get it to about rank 8 and only gets better as it continues to gain ranks.

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Have recently started Shadowbringers and honestly I think I agree now. I think I even prefer going with 2 jobs cause I feel like you're leveling too fast. I prefer having to grind a little before reaching required level for MSQ, and currently I'm overleveling if I do all sidequests, not leaving room for doing some fates and dungeons for leveling because I don't want to overlevel too much so my level matches the area. Going with 2 jobs might be the way to go actually.

Ooooorrrr, I know this is completely mindblowing and will probably require an extraordinary amount of ressources but bear with me: They could make healer DPS more engaging... Omg I said it

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Healers arguably need more complex dps rotation in general, but it will likely never be as engaging as tanks and dps, so they are destined to have a lesser experience in solo content.

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When I quest as a dps nothing stays alive long enough for me to feel like the act of dpsing is engaging.

Do I find it more engaging than questing as a healer? Not really because in both cases I can just auto pilot in combat. For me it's the story and the solo duties that make questing engaging. Not the combat in normal solo quests when I have to kill 5 things or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

When I quest as a dps nothing stays alive long enough for me to feel like the act of dpsing is engaging.

Do I find it more engaging than questing as a healer? Not really because in both cases I can just auto pilot in combat. For me it's the story and the solo duties that make questing engaging. Not the combat in normal solo quests when I have to kill 5 things or whatever.

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The issue with healer is that some stuff takes quite a while to kill and it's a lot of time spent spamming one button. Especially some solos are just absolutely horrid.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

The issue with healer is that some stuff takes quite a while to kill and it's a lot of time spent spamming one button. Especially some solos are just absolutely horrid.

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Yes this one I agree with, there is definitely a very noticeable gap between the time it takes to kill something as the different roles. But this isn't an "I need more buttons" issue. This is a numbers issue.

But at the same time we have to remember that we are healers. Our kit is intended for support, so this is where our strengths lie. It would be nice to have a damage increase but the line between a balanced buff and making healers an op solo role can be very thin.

I'm personally okay with solo questing how it is. The combat isn't super engaging most of the time but it doesn't bother me because the story keeps me interested, the music is wonderful and the zones look amazing.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

When I quest as a dps nothing stays alive long enough for me to feel like the act of dpsing is engaging.

Do I find it more engaging than questing as a healer? Not really because in both cases I can just auto pilot in combat. For me it's the story and the solo duties that make questing engaging. Not the combat in normal solo quests when I have to kill 5 things or whatever.

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I see what you mean but I disagree. Healer dps just doesn't feel engaging in general, like on a dummy for example. It's the same animation and same button over and over again. It feels monotone. Even if healer would get a 1-2-3 combo instead of 1 button, which doesn't really add any complexity, it would feel more engaging, heck even if just the animation would change after each dps it would imo feel more engaging even though you're still doing same "rotation". With dps/tank jobs there is first of all variety of dps animations and you also have to to be on lookout for your cooldowns/dots/procs, and kind of feels good when you gotta kill 1 mob and you can pop all your dps cooldowns for burst.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I see what you mean but I disagree. Healer dps just doesn't feel engaging in general, like on a dummy for example. It's the same animation and same button over and over again. It feels monotone.

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Which is how healing on smn and rdm feels. Even if they had the mana to sustain doing it for a long time, it would be super boring. I don't expect healing on those classes to be interesting, much like how I don't expect dpsing on a healer to be interesting.

However I do note the difference that the opportunity for healers to dps does arise all the time, unlike healing as a rdm or smn. I am merely pointing out how things look when you flip the argument on to dps classes with healing built in.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Even if healer would get a 1-2-3 combo instead of 1 button, which doesn't really add any complexity, it would feel more engaging,

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This would only work if casting support abilities wouldn't break the combo, and if the period in which you have time to finish the combo is fairly long to allow for periods of time when the healer must heal a lot, otherwise it would feel punishing to play your main role and that is not a good thing. If all this was the case I would welcome something like your suggestion.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

With dps/tank jobs there is first of all variety of dps animations and you also have to to be on lookout for your cooldowns/dots/procs, and kind of feels good when you gotta kill 1 mob and you can pop all your dps cooldowns for burst.

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I feel that to go as far as giving healers major dps cds for personal burst similar to the other roles would be going into the realms of becoming a hybrid. Which would be OP. It would be fun, but I don't see it happening ;)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Which is how healing on smn and rdm feels. Even if they had the mana to sustain doing it for a long time, it would be super boring. I don't expect healing on those classes to be interesting, much like how I don't expect dpsing on a healer to be interesting.

However I do note the difference that the opportunity for healers to dps does arise all the time, unlike healing as a rdm or smn. I am merely pointing out how things look when you flip the argument on to dps classes with healing built in.



This would only work if casting support abilities wouldn't break the combo, and if the period in which you have time to finish the combo is fairly long to allow for periods of time when the healer must heal a lot, otherwise it would feel punishing to play your main role and that is not a good thing. If all this was the case I would welcome something like your suggestion.



I feel that to go as far as giving healers major dps cds for personal burst similar to the other roles would be going into the realms of becoming a hybrid. Which would be OP. It would be fun, but I don't see it happening ;)

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No those were arguments against saying that all roles are equally unengaging in solo combat, I wasn't at all arguing for healers to have all that.

Which is also why I wanted all healers to have a corresonding job so you can use another role in solo content and switch back to healer for instances. Now I do personally wish healers had a more complex dps rotation, but didn't make arguments for that in this thread.

Edit: upon rereading your reply, could be that you're just giving your thoughts on what I posted instead of countering them, my apologies if that was the case and you can ignore this reply then.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

No those were arguments against saying that all roles are equally unengaging in solo combat, I wasn't at all arguing for healers to have all that.

Which is also why I wanted all healers to have a corresonding job so you can use another role in solo content and switch back to healer for instances. Now I do personally wish healers had a more complex dps rotation, but didn't make arguments for that in this thread.

Edit: upon rereading your reply, could be that you're just giving your thoughts on what I posted instead of countering them, my apologies if that was the case and you can ignore this reply then.

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Yes I was only giving my thoughts, not really presenting an argument as such. Don't worry about it :)

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

You decided to keep both jobs geared and learn both jobs simultaneously, when you can do only one of them instead, and struggled from it. That's entirely your doing, it's not the class design's fault.

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More like I wanted to main SUM, but the DPS cues sucked and I realized the game needed healers.

You're welcome.

I low key still wonder what the game would be like now if they had continued down the split class/job road. I think this could have opened up a lot of possibilities for jobs we don't have. White Mage and Geomancer, Summoner and Scholar, Astrologian and Time Mage, Warrior and Berserker, Bard and Ranger, Machinist and Medic/Chemist, Black Mage and Necromancer. If done correctly we could see similar themes with different sides from every job. I think it would have been a really interesting idea to expand on, however I know it will never happen, and probably for good reason. Though, I can't help but wonder what could have been.