Paladins should use Hallowed Ground more often in dungeons

You can use Hallowed Ground at least twice in a dungeon for mega pulls and you could gain on some significant healer dps if you do (unless healer refuses to dps). Don't just keep it for emergency, make sure cooldown will reset for a second big pull.

Edit4: striked through the following cause I've read compelling argument against it

(edit2: please don't comment on everything below here without taking the stuff in BOLD into consideration)

Say, you and/or healer are undergeared, you can still do mega pulls with paladin and manage it pretty well by starting with Hallowed Ground and then only if needed requiescat + Clemency, and also low blowing + shield bashing mobs. 2nd and 3th part only if you don't think healer can handle it. You basically have guarantee with Hallowed Ground + rq clemency to not die for 20 seconds.

(Don't start with hallowed ground if there's a WHM to take advantage of stuns)

Edit1: To clarify, I meant the clemency + shield bash only for when you know for sure you are overpulling and probably won't survive even when healer spams heals (bc you and/or healer are undergeared), it is definitely not meant for healer to simply do more dps.

Edit3: Here is a concrete example of a situation wherein I think this method saved me. Take note I didn't played optimally (e.g. oGCD timing). Brandwidth was filled cause I'm no PLD expert, just one of the jobs I was leveling.
https://gfycat.com/largelegalcoypu

Absolutely no. What? Clemency? Are you out of your mind? No. Just no.

If you're not capable of healing a dungeon, don't heal. You're telling me to miss out on over 350 potency per holy circle and over 1200 potency from Confiteor because some piece of human garbage healer can't use their bloated super stuffed healing kit to keep me alive in an expert roulette? Gtfo lol no.

We have plenty of cooldowns to use. SHIELD BASH? That's on the GCD, and breaks combos. Nope.

Arm's Length, Reprisal, two charges of sheltron, rampart and sentinel...we have plenty with native block chance as well.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Absolutely no. What? Clemency? Are you out of your mind? No. Just no.

If you're not capable of healing a dungeon, don't heal. You're telling me to miss out on over 350 potency per holy circle and over 1200 potency from Confiteor because some piece of human garbage healer can't use their bloated super stuffed healing kit to keep me alive in an expert roulette? Gtfo lol no.

We have plenty of cooldowns to use. SHIELD BASH? That's on the GCD, and breaks combos. Nope.

Arm's Length, Reprisal, two charges of sheltron, rampart and sentinel...we have plenty with native block chance as well.

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^ Meh. I disagree with this guy. I use Clemency and Hallowed Ground whenever I want to as long as I ensure it's available when I need it most. "Blah blah blah but what about mah deeps, the dungeon will take forever blah blah blah."

This is a perfect example of the difference between people who get their panties in a bunch if a dungeon run takes 60 seconds longer than they wanted, and people who really just don't care if a dungeon run takes a little longer.

So let me get this straight, you want the tank to lose some of his dps, use his (somewhat) long oGCD hallowed ground, on top of use requiescat + Clemency (i suppose just for emergencies) just so the healer can set off more dps? i don't get why that would make much of a difference, you'll have to explain that abit more.

(not trying to be a jerk or anything, i'm honestly confused to the logic, please explain a bit further if possible lol)

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Originally Posted by SamRF

You can use Hallowed Ground at least twice in a dungeon for mega pulls and you could gain on some significant healer dps if you do (unless healer refuses to dps). Don't just keep it for emergency, make sure cooldown will reset for a second big pull.

Say, you and/or healer are undergeared, you can still do mega pulls with paladin and manage it pretty well by starting with Hallowed Ground and then if needed requiescat + Clemency, and also low blowing + shield bashing mobs. 2nd and 3th part only if you don't think healer can handle it. You basically have guarantee with Hallowed Ground + rq clemency to not die for 20 seconds.

(Don't start with hallowed ground if there's a WHM to take advantage of stuns)

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Hallowed Ground use makes perfect sense, which I already do make use of personally, you can indeed get two uses in dungeons as you said.

...But then you lost me on the Clemency part, and especially the Shield Bash part (who keeps that on their hotbars lol), you should never give up DPS for the sake of healer dps, Tank AoE damage is significantly more than Healer AoE damage, especially under Requiescat past 72 in Paladins case, though overall, tanks get a boost to their AoE kits at 72.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

If you're not capable of healing a dungeon, don't heal. You're telling me to miss out on over 350 potency per holy circle and over 1200 potency from Confiteor

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It can be worth it. This is AoE and party DPS > personal dps. More targets is more dmg for you and the DPS in your group.

If you have to shield bash each ennemy and Req+Clemency yourself, I think there is something else to fix or do the dungeon differently.
As for HG, of course it should be used.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Absolutely no. What? Clemency? Are you out of your mind? No. Just no.

If you're not capable of healing a dungeon, don't heal. You're telling me to miss out on over 350 potency per holy circle and over 1200 potency from Confiteor because some piece of human garbage healer can't use their bloated super stuffed healing kit to keep me alive in an expert roulette? Gtfo lol no.

We have plenty of cooldowns to use. SHIELD BASH? That's on the GCD, and breaks combos. Nope.

Arm's Length, Reprisal, two charges of sheltron, rampart and sentinel...we have plenty with native block chance as well.

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No only the hallowed ground is for healer to do more dps. The clemency + shield bashing is only if you know for sure you are overpulling and don't think healer can handle it. I guess this isn't relevant for endgame so arguably my post is kind of pointless (I wanted to delete it shortly after I created it but found out you can't lol so I'm stuck with this embarrassment).

I'm currently leveling PLD and am at lvl 69 and I can show you a vid in which I'm pretty sure I saved myself with clemency + shieldbashing at lvl 68 (both me and healer were undergeared) and me dying there would likely have resulted in wipe. I wasn't supposed to pull that big in the first place cause it was obvious we couldn't handle it, but still did and made it with HG + clemency + shieldbashing. Let me know if you want to see the vid, cause I think it shows that this strategy was the best way to handle that situation, although I'm still not entirely sure (maybe my dps was better to kill mobs faster) but am convinced I would have died if I didn't.

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Originally Posted by Blackheart

So let me get this straight, you want the tank to lose some of his dps, use his (somewhat) long oGCD hallowed ground, on top of use requiescat + Clemency (i suppose just for emergencies) just so the healer can set off more dps? i don't get why that would make much of a difference, you'll have to explain that abit more.

(not trying to be a jerk or anything, i'm honestly confused to the logic, please explain a bit further if possible lol)

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No not at all. Only the Hallowed Ground would be for extra dps. The Clemency + shield bashing only if you know for sure you are overpulling (bc you or healer are undergeared) and don't think you can survive. Now, with having this in mind, you could potentially decide to sometimes overpull (even though you're undergeared), knowing that you might survive by this method.

Like I've said in another reply, this likely isn't relevant for endgame so arguably this thread is pointless.

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Originally Posted by winsock

It can be worth it. This is AoE and party DPS > personal dps. More targets is more dmg for you and the DPS in your group.

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This is what I had in mind. Sacrificing my own dps so I could do a bigger pull (which me and healer are not ready for gear wise), which could then result in more total dps. You can argue this might barely make a difference (making this thread might have taken more time than the difference between all those specific large/small pulls lol) but it's more fun imo to take those risks sometimes and feels rewarding when you manage to pull it off and effectively save time.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

No not at all. Only the Hallowed Ground would be for extra dps. The Clemency + shield bashing only if you know for sure you are overpulling (bc you or healer are undergeared) and don't think you can survive. Now, with having this in mind, you could potentially decide to sometimes overpull (even though you're undergeared), knowing that you might survive by this method.

Like I've said in another reply, this likely isn't relevant for endgame so arguably this thread is pointless.

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I can see where you're coming from, most often then naught an underpowered tank would just pull small and just go through the instance normally, but if you're a high risk (and if you're lucky) high reward type that could possibly be interesting lol, you'd have to put some high faith in the dps in the dps and healer or watch them go:

dps1: d-did the tank just hallow ground?!
dps2: OMG KILL THEM!! KILL THEM FAST!!!
healer: WE'RE ALL GONNA DIIIIIIIE!!!
All: AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!! /panic

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Originally Posted by Blackheart

I can see where you're coming from, most often then naught an underpowered tank would just pull small and just go through the instance normally, but if you're a high risk (and if you're lucky) high reward type that could possibly be interesting lol, you'd have to put some high faith in the dps in the dps and healer or watch them go:

dps1: d-did the tank just hallow ground?!
dps2: OMG KILL THEM!! KILL THEM FAST!!!
healer: WE'RE ALL GONNA DIIIIIIIE!!!
All: AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!! /panic

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the dps and the healer will be doing the exact rotation they would be doing otherwise why would anyone panic

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Originally Posted by SamRF

This is what I had in mind. Sacrificing my own dps so I could do a bigger pull (which me and healer are not ready for gear wise), which could then result in more total dps. You can argue this might barely make a difference (making this thread might have taken more time than the difference between all those specific large/small pulls lol) but it's more fun imo to take those risks sometimes and feels rewarding when you manage to pull it off and effectively save time.

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If you're talking time efficiency, all the more reason for PLD not to use clemency.

Any tank+healer combination has all the tools needed to go full dps on big pulls.

The only time, imo, that PLD should even consider using Clemency is under strict emergency situations where its usage is required for either their own survival, or the survival of a party member whose death will lead to a wipe (read: primarily only in EX/Savage/Ultimate). Outside of those rare scenarios Clemency shouldn't be touched, as the damage you lose from Holy Spirit/Holy Circle and Conf is just far too immense for those extra 4-5 healer DPS GCDs to come close to making up for it.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

If you're talking time efficiency, all the more reason for PLD not to use clemency.

Any tank+healer combination has all the tools needed to go full dps on big pulls.

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This is the case when tank and healer are either in endgame or/and properly geared, I've mentioned in previous replies that you should only do it when you know for sure you are overpulling and will likely die if you only rely on oGCD + healer.

I agree on hallowed ground thing, it does increase the team dps if healer is willing to use dps skills.
Well however anything else is false.

Shield bash is never used by PLD, if you need stun or silence there are 2 oGCD that fits in better for example when stopping big mob from executing aoe.
Paladin should never been asked to use clemency to heal himself, why? Because healers have more than enough tools to deal with paladins health, most of their skills are supportive or healing abilities they could use on PLD, if they cant handle it then let them learn their own job and know they are doing mistakes.
I am more willing to let healer kill me than i healing myself, he made a mistake and he should know about it.
There is no such thing as "overpulling" now in this game, all new dungeons are super easy to go through, and the ones that used to be hard are easy due to the ilvl and stats increase.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I agree on hallowed ground thing, it does increase the team dps if healer is willing to use dps skills.
Well however anything else is false.

Shield bash is never used by PLD, if you need stun or silence there are 2 oGCD that fits in better for example when stopping big mob from executing aoe.
Paladin should never been asked to use clemency to heal himself, why? Because healers have more than enough tools to deal with paladins health, most of their skills are supportive or healing abilities they could use on PLD, if they cant handle it then let them learn their own job and know they are doing mistakes.
I am more willing to let healer kill me than i healing myself, he made a mistake and he should know about it.
There is no such thing as "overpulling" now in this game, all new dungeons are super easy to go through, and the ones that used to be hard are easy due to the ilvl and stats increase.

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I can't speak about endgame but there definitely are leveling dungeons where you can overpull, especially if you/healer are undergeared.

OP has a wonderful message that CAN'T be stressed enough. The number of PLDs that view their invuln as this sacred jewel that is to be reserved strictly for emergencies is TOO DAMN HIGH!

Mitigation is best appreciated when incoming damage is at its absolute highest. When is that? At that start of the pull when all things are alive! Just POP it!

I understand where you're coming from but I personally think that if you are wanting to prioritise dps over healing when playing a healer role, you shouldn't be playing the role in the first place. Not every tank you encounter can guarantee that something wont go wrong later on that a Hallowed Ground could've saved the party from.

With a tank player you can trust, maybe. But otherwise, no.

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Originally Posted by Vinutus

I understand where you're coming from but I personally think that if you are wanting to prioritise dps over healing when playing a healer role, you shouldn't be playing the role in the first place. Not every tank you encounter can guarantee that something wont go wrong later on that a Hallowed Ground could've saved the party from.

With a tank player you can trust, maybe. But otherwise, no.

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I want to point out a flaw with this line of thinking: we're talking dungeons here.

If hallowed ground isn't going to be used at the start of a big pull, when incoming damage is at its most lethal, then by default you're suggesting that it should be reserved for boss mechanics.

Those aren't savage bosses. Those are casual bosses. There is SO much lenience in those fights, the idea HG may be needed sounds like wishful thinking to fulfill some hero complex. If you were to follow that line of thinking, the poor button would gather dust and see use once a blue moon, if at that. Incoming damage from those fights is so low, it is a waste by comparison to large pulls. Even assuming that hallowed ground could be used in a ~*dire situation*~, 10 seconds is not going to make or break a bad situation if it wound up there in the first place. You'd be far better off spamming clemency.

You may as well be preaching that all PLDs should reserve their mana and requiescat strictly for clemency under the pretense that if "they want to prioritize DPSing over staying alive, they shouldn't be playing the role."

Hallow on adds? Yes, please do, as soon as possible and at the very end.
Clemency?????
CLEMENCY???????
The only reason I would touch that if my healer was DEAD.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Hallow on adds? Yes, please do, as soon as possible and at the very end.
Clemency?????
CLEMENCY???????
The only reason I would touch that if my healer was DEAD.

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Alright you're like 5th person or something making the same point while disregarding my arguments for when and how it would be used

In Dungeons Hallowed Ground, Living Dead, Superbolide and Holmgang should be treated as any other cooldown. I agree. Most tanks dont touch them for the full run at all - Its such a waste when they can last for 1/3rd of a packs time alive, saving you other cooldowns for other pulls and bosses, allowing the healer to do more damage overall for quicker runs.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

In Dungeons Hallowed Ground, Living Dead, Superbolide and Holmgang should be treated as any other cooldown. I agree. Most tanks dont touch them for the full run at all - Its such a waste when they can last for 1/3rd of a packs time alive, saving you other cooldowns for other pulls and bosses, allowing the healer to do more damage overall for quicker runs.

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Living Dead I entirely disagree with, unless the healer in the dungeon is a WHM. If it's a Scholar or Astro, however, unless I know the healer personally and know what they're capable of I don't have any confidence in them to solo heal back to full HP to cure Walking Dead.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

In Dungeons Hallowed Ground, Living Dead, Superbolide and Holmgang should be treated as any other cooldown. I agree. Most tanks dont touch them for the full run at all - Its such a waste when they can last for 1/3rd of a packs time alive, saving you other cooldowns for other pulls and bosses, allowing the healer to do more damage overall for quicker runs.

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Plz dont use superbolide in dungeons, its always end up badly

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

In Dungeons Hallowed Ground, Living Dead, Superbolide and Holmgang should be treated as any other cooldown. I agree. Most tanks dont touch them for the full run at all - Its such a waste when they can last for 1/3rd of a packs time alive, saving you other cooldowns for other pulls and bosses, allowing the healer to do more damage overall for quicker runs.

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imo, using holmgang for dungeon pulling seems a bit hard to do as healers never dare to make the tank's hp that low, but I can see it happening

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Plz dont use superbolide in dungeons, its always end up badly

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The healers in your dungeons are kinda bad, huh?

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Living Dead I entirely disagree with, unless the healer in the dungeon is a WHM. If it's a Scholar or Astro, however, unless I know the healer personally and know what they're capable of I don't have any confidence in them to solo heal back to full HP to cure Walking Dead.

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Just abyssal drain the pull during walking dead and you've done half their job for them, lol.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Plz dont use superbolide in dungeons, its always end up badly

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The only ways Super ends badly is if you get server ticked and die during the time after it puts you to 1 HP but before you're given the invuln (which is rare, but still can happen, I've had it a couple of times) or if your healer is straight up asleep and leaves you at 1 HP for the entire duration of Super and then allows you to die to autos once the immunity wears off. In fact, the only cooldown safer than Super in dungeons is Hallowed.

i generally use Bolid and hallow in dungeons a bit
most the time they sit there and collect dust in dungeons so why not.
ill use clemency if i feel its needed in Req window normally not like one less Holy Circle is gonna kill me.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Plz dont use superbolide in dungeons, its always end up badly

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Bolide only ends up messing things up when there is no communication
or both WHM and GNB have a fear moment and the GNB is just a little too slow on the bolide

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Plz dont use superbolide in dungeons, its always end up badly

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I see no issue with superboilde if you are at already low HP. If you use it when you are full, sure, you are an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

The healers in your dungeons are kinda bad, huh?

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Because a ton o healers actually let our HP go down on purpose just to use their best healing on low tank hp to prevent overhealing.

taking the risk of sounding like a broken record.use your HG for massive pulls never use you clemency unless its an emergency (healer dead,avoid death) using clemency unwarranted will break your rotation therefore expanding pulls times,straining your healer, as he/she will spend resources healing you when not needed. the only rare exception i,thati can think of,you and healer agree before hand they will be mostly dpsing but then again even with that you are just taking your damage and flushing down the toilet and the healer will not make up for that.so dont do it ever.i do main the pally and from personal experience you really dont want to do that

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Because a ton o healers actually let our HP go down on purpose just to use their best healing on low tank hp to prevent overhealing.

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What exactly does that have to do with superbolide causing wipes in your groups? That's just standard healer play.

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Originally Posted by Ramzakristos

taking the risk of sounding like a broken record.use your HG for massive pulls never use you clemency unless its an emergency (healer dead,avoid death) using clemency unwarranted will break your rotation therefore expanding pulls times,straining your healer, as he/she will spend resources healing you when not needed. the only rare exception i,thati can think of,you and healer agree before hand they will be mostly dpsing but then again even with that you are just taking your damage and flushing down the toilet and the healer will not make up for that.so dont do it ever.i do main the pally and from personal experience you really dont want to do that

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Good point I think I agree now, thanks for your good argumentation.

Talking efficiency. Yes, don't save Hallowed Ground just to use for emergencies. Also I don't think one cast of Clemency will hurt your DPS too much to matter. In dungeons at least.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

In Dungeons Hallowed Ground, Living Dead, Superbolide and Holmgang should be treated as any other cooldown. I agree. Most tanks dont touch them for the full run at all - Its such a waste when they can last for 1/3rd of a packs time alive, saving you other cooldowns for other pulls and bosses, allowing the healer to do more damage overall for quicker runs.

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Hallowed, yes.

Superbolide, I would not recommend this with randos. You'll end up in about the same place if your healer panics and tried to dump heals into you.

Holmgang, you won't get much out of it in a dungeon. This is almost exclusively an anti-tankbuster invuln.

Living Dead, best off pretending this doesn't exist when doing the party finder with randos.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

You can use Hallowed Ground at least twice in a dungeon for mega pulls and you could gain on some significant healer dps if you do

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This part is good advice. It's a cooldown, there's no such thing as an emergency skill - rotate it like you would anything else.