We need to blackball people who pull S Marks too early.

Seriously can we start a list of rude people who pull and kill S marks when they know people are on their way?

That's really the only way that we can stop this sort of thing. :mad:

there is no early pulling. there is only getting there too late.

It'd be nice to eliminate them, but the official SE stance on hunt marks is that they're open world content and whatever you do with them is kosher unless it involves actively killing people using the hunt mark in question or resetting the thing to let more people arrive. Heck, we've even had someone with so little of a life that they have to self-destruct on Forgiven Gossip spawns to ruin SS rank attempts.

Until something about the system or SE's stance on it changes, the best we can do is to keep our chins up, control the flow of information so that the most possible people can make it there, and endorse hunt strategies that make it possible.

Folks shouldn't join in on early pulls either, is the thing! It takes five minutes for them to solo an ARR S rank and twenty-five for an HW S, so it should by all rights be a cooperative effort that involves people not swinging on the things until the established pull time or until it drops low.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

It'd be nice to eliminate them, but the official SE stance on hunt marks is that they're open world content and whatever you do with them is kosher unless it involves actively killing people using the hunt mark in question or resetting the thing to let more people arrive. Heck, we've even had someone with so little of a life that they have to self-destruct on Forgiven Gossip spawns to ruin SS rank attempts.

Until something about the system or SE's stance on it changes, the best we can do is to keep our chins up, control the flow of information so that the most possible people can make it there, and endorse hunt strategies that make it possible.

Folks shouldn't join in on early pulls either, is the thing! It takes five minutes for them to solo an ARR S rank and twenty-five for an HW S, so it should by all rights be a cooperative effort that involves people not swinging on the things until the established pull time or until it drops low.

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If Squeenix is going to sit on its hands, that's all the more reason the community needs to step up and blackball these idiots.

As soon as there are enough people to kill a mark, it's not "too early" anymore. Waiting for others to share is friendly courtesy and not an obligation. I hate it too when they pull instantly, but if you can't get there in 2-3 minutes after the first call it's more or less your own fault. And this is okay, because you also have to respect people's time: Nobody wants to be sitting around a target for half an hour until everyone finally decided to show up.

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

but if you can't get there in 2-3 minutes after the first call it's more or less your own fault.

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Yeah no one rational in the history of the game has ever been disappointed that they didn't wait 15 minutes to pull and kill an S rank- the bit we have grievances with are the guys who did nothing to affect a spawn then rock up on the result of someone else's work and deny them their ability to share it because they have problems with them sharing it. We can express frustration with the fact that selfish individuals exist without having anyone play devil's advocate about it.

As said, it sucks if people pull instantly. I don't like it, I don't do it and I think it's rude. I'm totally with you at this. At least give people a call and a chance.
But OP just stated they were 'on the way' without letting us know how long it has been since the S-mark was spotted. I've seen people complaining in-game because we didn't wait 5 more minutes for them to finish up first whatever they were doing and that's the line I'm personally drawing: Give people enough time to come to the mark right after the call (usually a few minutes), then pull. If they want to finish up crafting, gathering, questing or whatever, it's their lost. Not going to waste people's time either.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

there is no early pulling. there is only getting there too late.

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This.
There'll always be someone who got a call to arms late, their network of hunters being a little sluggish or they simply had a long load time.
There'll always be someone arriving late, and from their point of view, seeing a hunt engaged seconds before they even show up is "early pulling."
Someone who shows up and pulls the mark without delay isn't early pulling, it's just pulling. If you're there, you are free to engage in combat as well. If you missed it, oh well be faster on the next one. It's not like there's a limited number of spawns.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Seriously can we start a list of rude people who pull and kill S marks when they know people are on their way?

That's really the only way that we can stop this sort of thing. :mad:

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Not really a fan of anything that publicly list people's names and makes them a potential Target for harrasment and witch hunts and I'm sure neither is SE.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

there is no early pulling. there is only getting there too late.

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this is spot on

Last time I was "late" to an S mark, I was there not even 60 seconds after the call out and it was already dead. You're an idiot if you really think I'm sauntering in 15 minutes after the call out.

When I get to a mob or spawn it, I always wait for as many people as possible. It's called common courtesy, which is something most jackholes who roll up on S marks don't have.

That's up to the community to handle. If the community doesn't want them involved, they get blacklisted. Eventually, they'll catch on. I don't feel SE should intervene in the hunt.

What annoys me most is when you are in the zone working to pop it and it is killed before you can get there. Fortunately that hasn't happened to me yet in shb but it probably will once power creep sets in.

It's funny, how this concern grips people.

I haven't done a hunt in months because I got my mount and was just done. And in the grand scheme of XIV, it seems like such a small percentage, even less so than raiding. No one is obligated to wait, it's not a FATE either so there's no time limit to consider either. Just kill it yourself with friends or respond faster.

You can't name and shame on the forums so the blacklist would have to be on your hunt discords and enforced by the group leader. That is highly unlikely to happen due to the ability of everyone to make a PF. I stopped going to xworld high level S ranks and only do trains. As far as my world S ranks, I occasionally do the ShB ones but stopped doing the older world S long ago due to pullers.

Honestly, the only real issue is the ARR hunts die way too quickly for how rewarding they continue to be. Just a geared level 80 tank can burn off around 15% of a ARR S rank's health with their opener and DPS even more then that.

It doesn't matter if people "early" pull ShB S ranks because they take so long to die that anyone who's interested them has plenty of time to get to them.

Nowdays, it's entirely possible for you to spawn an ARR hunt then have it get picked off before you can even locate it. A group of vultures from across the DC routinely wait for the locals on my server to spawn the gathering-related S ranks (Because the crossworld restrictions prevent them from doing it themselves) then try to kill them before anyone can locate or relay them and it's frankly really obnoxious.

They really just need to implement some form of scaling if they're going to continue making the "outdated" hunts drop relevant currency. They've stated that making the S ranks into FATEs would not be a realistic option, but there are alternatives that could be used, such as giving them a special buff that lowers their damage received from overleveled players to make it so that all players attacking them are only hitting about as they would at the hunt's level.

Early pullers who do it consistently are reported as griefers. It's up to the S rank spawners to pull, not anyone else. It's pretty bad when people show up and immediately pull despite others waiting patiently. Japanese servers have unofficial public blacklists. It's against the rules to do it in the forums here though obviously.

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Originally Posted by Eriane_Elis

Early pullers who do it consistently are reported as griefers. It's up to the S rank spawners to pull, not anyone else.

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As much as you want to believe otherwise, that's not true. Early pulling is not against any rules, nor does SE consider it griefing. As far as SE is concerned, once something is spawned it is fair game to any players regardless of who did the work to spawn it.

What they do consider griefing is resetting a mark once it's already engaged by players.

You can create blacklists all you want but it doesn't prevent players from pulling early if they want to.

To be honest, I see as many accidental early pulls as I see intentional ones. Someone showboating who accidentally aggros because the mark decides not to ignore them for a change. A curious new player who strays too close trying to get a better look. Someone misclicking and then going "sorry, sorry!" in shout chat.

The best response the community can have is to keep their heads and not go gung ho attacking if something gets pulled early. Not much good in the case of ARR S ranks, they melt too fast, but effective on the rest. Let the early puller solo it for a minute or two before everyone else joins in. It works if the community doesn't give into fear of missing out and waits.

If your talking about just shaming a person then I can tell u from seeing that method applied on my home server,Goblin, that does not work cause there is a lot of people who care less what other players think of them.

I also hate it when people early pull cause it screws us who have to wait through load times over, especially if your going to another server for a hunt.

Only solution I can think of is turn the ARR,HW and SB S ranks health up to that of SHB ones.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

Only solution I can think of is turn the ARR,HW and SB S ranks health up to that of SHB ones.

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Which SE won't do because those are content intended for level 50, 60 and 70 players, not level 80 players even if level 80 players are the primary ones engaging them.

What SE should do is apply some sort of damage resist buff to the S ranks that limits how much damage they can take per attack. Right now, I've got a L52 ilvl 117 DRG that does 1676 damage on a Full Thrust (530 potency) buffed by Life Surge. Let's round that up to 2500 to create a bit of leeway for higher potency attacks and ilvl on level 50 jobs. You then give level 50 S ranks a damage resist buff that will allow it to take the first 2500 damage from an attack but ignores the amount over 2500. I could land a 30k Forbidden Chakra on that S rank with my monk - the S rank takes 2500 damage and ignores the remaining 27500.

Now the S rank can't be melted in 30 seconds by a full party of level 80s (or faster with more). It's still going to die faster that it would have when level cap was 50 but not so fast that players at the other end of the zone or teleporting in won't have time to get there. The level 80 party would still be able to kill it even if no one else showed up. A mechanic that hits for 3k is still a serious chunk of damage for a level 50 player but a level 80 player isn't even going to notice it (assuming they don't dodge it in the first place). Debuffs applied by mechanics are a lot more likely to be resisted at level 80 while a level 50 player would still take the full effect. It's just going to take a lot more time - unless more of the community shows up to help kill it.

Level 60 S rank? Increase the damage taken per attack cap to 12k.

Level 70 S rank? Increase to something appropriate for level 70 damage (I don't have any jobs around level 70 right now to test for a good number).

Next expansion comes around - give the level 80 S ranks a buff appropriate to the highest level 80 ilvl damage.

It keeps the S ranks accessible to all players those S ranks were intended for instead of turning them into current end game only content like your idea would.

Unfortunately it is only a courtesy and not mandatory to wait a few minutes for S ranks OR for any mobs. Unless you live in a bubble, you know how many "rudes" are in the real world hehe, gotta deal with it because they are way worse hidden behind a screen.

One solution would be to require to sync the same way is done in fates.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Last time I was "late" to an S mark, I was there not even 60 seconds after the call out and it was already dead. You're an idiot if you really think I'm sauntering in 15 minutes after the call out.

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And who decides the arbitrary amount of time that needs to pass so it's not early pulling? The hunt committee? As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as pulling early. It's not like marks don't respawn.

What is "blackballing"

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Originally Posted by rxantos

One solution would be to require to sync the same way is done in fates.

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That has been brought up in the past and SE's reply at the time was that they would not do it because of the amount of time and effort it would take to change the programming for the Hunt. There's been nothing to indicate their feelings have changed since then, nor would I expect them to since they don't see early pulls as a problem. They always intended hunt marks to be pulled on sight, not for players to wait for a large crowd to form.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

What is "blackballing"

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I'm certain "blacklist" was intended but it's not something that works well in a MMO due to the huge player populations, nor is it even possible with open world content like The Hunt. Blacklists only work when a group can control who can be present to participate. Excluding players from linkshells/discords doesn't stop them from being present.

I'd like to see a global call to arms that be selected and checked off for the different ranked bosses that you are interested in. Depending on a hunt discord is not only broken but a pain for the people that always call out in channels. IMO, no game should ever have to depend on a 3rd party platform to seek out or play regular game content.

Report for Obstruction.

Seriously. They are obstructing your gameplay.

Otherwise, you have no right to play the content, and are at the mercy of these players.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And who decides the arbitrary amount of time that needs to pass so it's not early pulling? The hunt committee? As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as pulling early. It's not like marks don't respawn.

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Here's the stupid part, though: An S gets announced elsewhere to try to send people to the area -- it's dead long before you even zone in.

So what, then, is the point of the announcement?

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

there is no early pulling. there is only getting there too late.

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Pretty much this. It's a hunt. You find it and kill it. When people wait for the whole server to gather for a hunt, that's a courtesy, not an expectation or requirement.

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Originally Posted by Wrestlefire769

Report for Obstruction.

Seriously. They are obstructing your gameplay.

Otherwise, you have no right to play the content, and are at the mercy of these players.

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I think I'm having a stroke. lol
For a second I thought you said you should report players who pull an enemy [too early]. Or am I just reading this wrong?

On lamia if someone pulls early.. like I mean they pull as soon as it spawns while others were had just finished the minions for thr SS ranks or just the S in weaker spots.. people will keep a target on the enemy an see who takes aggro and shout out the name of the person.. they get removed from all hunt link shells an blacklisted so they don't see calls anymore

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

On lamia if someone pulls early.. like I mean they pull as soon as it spawns while others were had just finished the minions for thr SS ranks or just the S in weaker spots.. people will keep a target on the enemy an see who takes aggro and shout out the name of the person.. they get removed from all hunt link shells an blacklisted so they don't see calls anymore

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There's always some linkshell that doesn't care. There's also Discord, which the hunt community is relying on more and more because it doesn't have the small member limit that linkshells do.

You can't prevent players who want to be there from finding out and getting there.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

What is "blackballing"

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"My blacklist is legendary!" ahahaha

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Last time I was "late" to an S mark, I was there not even 60 seconds after the call out and it was already dead. You're an idiot if you really think I'm sauntering in 15 minutes after the call out.

When I get to a mob or spawn it, I always wait for as many people as possible. It's called common courtesy, which is something most jackholes who roll up on S marks don't have.

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This is an MMO, what is this common courtesy you speak of????

This already happens with certain discord / CWLS. The rules of those places are their own and it's follows rules of the game. BUT, if the instance is already full, don't expect people to wait 10 more minutes when you say "pulling in 10 minutes". Nobody is going to wait that long, someone is going to pull within 30 seconds guaranteed.

When you're the one who spawned a Hunt and it gets killed before you can even find it in the zone yeah, it was pulled early.

For hunts like The Garlok that spawn without player interaction I'd agree with you - luck of the draw. But when players take the time to spawn a hunt and then don't even get credit for the kill something is wrong.
At the very least I'd implement something along the lines of an S-rank being immune to damage until either the person that spawned it attacks or 15 minutes pass. (for the ones where player actions cause the spawn)

It's pretty stupid that in the present state of things the automated relays from certain apps go out so quickly that you can realistically end up with a hunt's instance so crowded within about a minute's time that manual relays won't even have time to circulate before locals get locked out of their own hunt.

I feel like they need to do something to actively curb the efficacy of these programs somehow because they're probably the single biggest detractor from my enjoyment of hunting.

There are a handful of Conductors that have the sense and savvy to allow a minute or 2 for a meeting place close to the instance aethter and allow party members to get through the congestion of SE's fail system. I salute them for their hard work, tyvm!

May I share the experience of a new player? I accidentally pulled an S-Rank in the Black Shroud yesterday. Saw the coords posted somewhere and went to have a look, saw a crowd and assumed it was time to fight. The hunt community / etiquette was a complete unknown to me. Someone politely pointed me at the hunt discord, so I understood the issue. I don't imagine anyone would suggest blackballing new players for stumbling across hunt content I suppose. But this is going to happen for marks in early areas.

I respect the hunt community and the time it takes to spawn some of these marks, but the discovery that all the elite marks that I might want to meet are going to be surrounded by lvl90 players who will kill it in a moment - this has removed all interest in the hunt for me. I had hoped for some challenging boss fights but now I know that will never happen on the marks I can find. Now because I respect your community I'll simply leave the hunt content out, but I can understand why some people decide that the game was not intended to be played like this and go mark-hunting outside of your etiquette.

I assume the rewards for early marks are paltry for end-gamers so I guess they are hunted for achievements? It's a shame it had to work like this.

So blackball people for poor game design eh... ya know the Devs could simply add a mechanic that causes the boss not to engage for say 1 min when touched , during that time a broadcast message could yell though the zone that the T Rex or whatever will engage in 1min. You expect too much of a uncoordinated mob.

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Originally Posted by A-Mahle

I assume the rewards for early marks are paltry for end-gamers so I guess they are hunted for achievements? It's a shame it had to work like this.

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The rewards on older expansion hunts actually remain useful even for end game players. That's why the hunt has become so popular. Aphorism is used to buy end game crafting materials. Poetics can be used to buy gear for additional jobs the player is leveling, or other items if they don't need the gear (I use Poetics to buy topsoil for gardening as an example). Allied and Centurio Seals are used to buy Aetheryte Tickets so the player doesn't need to pay teleport fees. It's a relatively small percentage that are attending for the achievements.

Open world content is generally not the place to be looking for a challenging boss fight because it is open to everyone who shows up for it, plus the mechanics tend to be relatively simple (regardless of what some people will try to tell you).

The community is mostly organized around S ranks and current expansion A ranks. Sometimes trains are getting run for Shadowbringers A ranks as well, though that's happening less frequently now players have multiple gear options at level cap.

S ranks are usually intentionally spawned (there are occasional exceptions) so it's extremely unlikely you'll run into one randomly or that you'll be left alone with it if you do. The community does have a policy of waiting to give others time to arrive since S ranks cooldown timers lasting a few days before there's a chance to spawn them again.

A ranks have much shorter timers (longest wait is 6 hours) and respawn on their own. If you run into any A ranks in ARR/HW/SB zones, they're fair game as the community does not organize trains for ARR and HW, and SB trains are getting rare due to those A ranks being fairly easy to solo at current level cap. Feel free to take them on if you encounter one. Zone shouts that you're going to pull are considered courteous in case others want to join in but there's no obligation to do so.