PLD VS WAR (main tank)

I come from FFXI as a MNK , but I always focused on what ever class i did and learned the mechanics of every job aspect and ability to finely tune my abilities as wich ever class i decided to master. In XIV I have decided to master the "Tank" role. Going to cut strait to the chase. Bottom line, PLD needs improvment even after todays patch, hate control aside, pld is missing one very essential ability to its baic mechanics. PLD lacks the ability to regen its own MP. Without this crucial ability I belive Warior has a wide open door to take PLDs only place in the game realy, Single boss mob / main tank. It is my belife that WAR was intended to be a crowd controler and was given ample def, HP regen ability, hate control and AOE damage ability. However there was no govenor to keep these abilities tied to a "crowd controll" situation only. Soo the result we end up with WAR as the new perfered tank, this leaves PLD in the cold. Suggestions on how to fix this: Holy Veil already beats PLD's 15 minute abilty , "Sacred Ground" should replace Sacred Ground with an ability that would regen PLD's MP to full bar, or increase the duration of the Invunerabilty and expand its range to magic attacks as well. Even tho this may be a bit over powering would be nice to see a mp regen effect acording to damage absorbed by Holy Ground (converts damage absorbed to mp gained)

I wouldn't mind seeing something like Chivalry from XI, which converted TP to MP at a certain ratio. That might assist MP problems PLD's could potentially have.

However their MP isn't necessarily the problem. WAR does a ton of damage, has higher HP, and is a beast in Rampage mode. With the accessibility of crit rate+ gear and the HP you can gain from Mogaxe, WAR is a self-sustaining powerhouse right now. PLD isn't going to ever do that amount of damage so they've gotta give it something so good that people will want them over WARs for another reason.

well Wariors are built for crowd controll, ample opertunity for that in cc. MP regen would help termendously tho, Tanks shouldnt worry bout dealing damage thats what your DDs are for, they simply should just keep hate and stay alive . Self heals are the most efficient way to do both (soo long as the heals are powerfull and frequent enough)

If you're referring to the old school idea of a "tank", then I agree--they should not concern themselves with dealing damage. Unfortunately dealing damage is a way to make tank jobs appealing. It can also be included in the balancing act of a class. There is no rule that says you cannot do this, it is merely how SE desires to envision a tank. Furthermore, the most efficient way to keep hate is using a taunt ability. The most efficient way to stay alive to avoid damage, not healing yourself. So heals are just what you compromise on (thus not mutually exclusive), they're not necessarily the most efficient way to do anything other than "cure HP". Think about this for a hot minute and you'll see my point.

Ask yourself this: What was the most significant patched addition in for PLD in XI? The addition of Atonement. The other was owning an Excalibur. Both of these allowed PLD to deal damage (one earned hate, the other did not, but still damage nonetheless). People desire their tanks to be DPS classes to some degree. The idea is modern and has taken flight in many MMOs to date.

Turtle tanks are nice and all, but it really is an outdated concept.

I disagree, a tank who can focus on their MAIN purpose frees the healers to do more then just focus on the tank. a WHM has more DD potential then a PLD, and arguably the same as a WAR, and a BLM or DRG has more DD potential then all 3. Soo if heals are less needed to keep the tank alive and the tank can still manage hate then more damage can be added to the party then if your tank half assed his/her job and wanted to score more damage to the mob, besides , when a tank becomes distracted with trying to parse high on damage they can easly forget their MAIN purpose , and that is to keep hate and stay alive. Party mechanics have and always will rely on each member doing their particular task to the best of their ability , or like we say in the Army, scan your zone. in wich to say to not bardge on your buddy's, your doing more harm then good, becuase if your not watching your zone cuz your too busy trying to take your budies target , your target has all the time in the world to focus aim on your dome. Soo would i add ATK or VIT to my sword? the obvious answer should be VIT, but if you wana be a jack of all trade you will never be an expert at any one.

You just said WHM arguably has the same potential "DD" as a WAR. I probably should have stopped reading there.

Look, get on WAR, turn on Rampage, wear lotsa crit gear, and go Steel Cyclone things to death. WAR can keep itself alive quite well without anything ever casting a spell. Is it as controlled? No, but you also can't interrupt my weapon skills with melee attacks. Not one target nor the 8 that get facerolled by SC.

Also if you're looking to keep hate, I think you'd be better off with Enmity on your sword. You could go with VIT though I suppose, but I've never seen the rationale with that.

well to each their own, and i have had double stacked emnity on my sword, parsed better with vit, just saying, there is how a job makes you feel like a bad ass and how a job actaully performs as its intended purpose. I have seen WAR take on Ifrit, and I watch the HP bar drop FAST, all that 1k hp dose is buy the mage enough time to keep the WAR alive. Not saying war shouldnt tank Ifrit, just saying its by no means superior to PLD or GLD for that.

WAR is a superior tank to PLD on Ifrit too. Ifrit can be tanked by a mage anyway.

Lols, ok buddy, just gona classify you as troll now. if it wasnt for 2x whm in a party war would wipe before first rage, I can solo Ifrit b4 first rage (by wich i mean no heals or buffs) and there have been many a time I have had no healers after hell fire for periods of and more then 30 seconds, I GARENTEE, your WAR wouldnt last 15 seconds in that position. I know cuz i have seen FAIL after FAIL after FAIL when a WAR tanked on a PUG group. soo Belive what you want, PLD is far superior in boss fights.

So PUG groups are your way of gauging if something works well or not. Got it.

edit: which part was I trolling with btw? I can clarify all those points if you'd like.

You can indeed tank Ifrit with just about any class, including a CNJ if that's your cup of tea. Prior to the over-curing fix in 1.21 the fastest Ifrit kills with with CNJ tanking to due over-curing with Sacred Prism Cura.

No offense, but the most noticeable aspect or your parser samples (from other thread) in my opinion is the kill time. I'm not going to bash just anyone that takes 10+ minutes on Ifrit because hey you're getting the job done and having fun doing it; but to a "min-maxer", 12 minutes is extremely sub-par. Since you're talking about PLD being better than others I think I should be allowed to submit a "min/max" argument here.

I have no doubt that in various "oh my god healers are all dead" situations, PLD will be superior to WAR on Ifrit, but if we're talking just normal setups optimizing for kill speed and hate control, WAR wins in the vast majority of setups. You can make a PLD work, but it will fall short of a min/max argument if you even hint at caring about speed.

Any lastly, if we're on the topic of the:

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there have been many a time I have had no healers after hell fire for periods of and more then 30 seconds, I GARENTEE, your WAR wouldnt last 15 seconds in that position. I know cuz i have seen FAIL after FAIL after FAIL when a WAR tanked on a PUG group. soo Belive what you want, PLD is far superior in boss fights.

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If we're talking pure survivability with no help on Ifrit, CNJ again wins. I've had fights as CNJ healing where the tank DC'd, everyone else wiped, and I just held Ifrit for about 2-3 minutes and slowly started a raise chain during triple dash. CNJ simply cures for more damage than Ifrit deals when built correctly so you just cure back whatever he does to you.

I normally don't reply in these sorts of threads, but I just found it incredibly funny that a PLD is proclaiming superiority... on Ifrit of all things. You're hear talking about how you can survive 30 seconds without a healer when the healer himself can survive indefinitely alone lol. I wish PLD was the amazing tank we all thought it would be but it is what it is.

I cant agree, Never seen cnj tank Ifrit, maybe kite/tank but i wouldnt consider that effectivly tanking, now i will say its not impossable I just dont find it very probable, aside from weak def , constant attacks would interupt vital heals. I would however love to see it done. As far as PLD supiriority , yes, I firmly belive in a real, difficult fight, one worth noting and taking some pride in winning, PLD would be the superior tank soo long as the fight dosent require any crowd control. As far as my parse gose, thats just and avg fight 2 outa 5 of those members had never had an Ifrit win b4 that fight. in a speed run 9:30 is bout avg somtimes less realy depends on what Ifrit decides to throw at us. in most cases where the fight takes less then 10 mins , my PLD with my DEF gear (756 DEF no buffs) takes about 22-25k damage on avg, I fully suspect this to go down with this current patch. (note ,sheild has 39 def, not a bad use of a meteria slot :) ). As far as Ifrit being easy, obviously i would have to agree, its on farm mode as far as im concerned. In a situation where the WHM is actually put in a position where they must be on their toes, the PLD is undoubtly the tank of choice. To argue such would require evidence in my eyes , other then , "WAR is just better , mmm kay?" like i said, I will post parses , damage taken, damage delt, and heals casted/hp regened i will provide only raw data, and if anyone wishes to challenge said data when its provided may do so, but i would suggest maybe some real data instead of "well i can tank the world solo on my WAR" as your only testamony.

For a situation in which speed is a factor: WAR > PLD. Otherwise PLD > WAR (which still pretty much says WAR > PLD.)

/thread

depends on the group if your pld can handle things with just one healer that frees up a spot to bring in a heavy duty dps, increasing speed of the fight, realy depends on the group tho, what each individual player brings to the fight. I have several very good BLM/THMs in my LS if i can allow 6 of em in and only take one healer and myself as tank, that would be the fastest fight I personally have ever been in.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I cant agree, Never seen cnj tank Ifrit, maybe kite/tank but i wouldnt consider that effectivly tanking, now i will say its not impossable I just dont find it very probable, aside from weak def , constant attacks would interupt vital heals. I would however love to see it done.

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I don't have a video of CNJ tanking Ifrit, but here's me tanking it on THM. Only did it once so while it looks sloppy, it gets the job done and could be refined a lot. CNJ is much easier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFIGTtsO7JI

Seeing is believing with you it seems.

lols in what game is seeing not believing. Anyways good job, and great use of the abilities. Curious tho, pretty sure this was pre jobs patch? Reason I ask is cuz spell casting is far more frequently interupted now . Not sure how easy this fight would be after patch. Either way good job. Dose raise another question. If you can learn to tank like this on THM why is it you have issues learning to tank better then a WAR on PLD? Granted we just got a hell of a boost on hate controll and damage reduction. The biggest advantage WAR has over the PLD on hate controll would be its ability to use it at any given time , where PLD has to block to get off its best hate tool. But other then that , WAR vs PLD hate control is equal now (not including plds AOE heals , an ability that WAR dosent get) After some testing its abundently clear WAR dose in fact take more damage then PLD will post Parse results once i test it further. DD , WAR is most definatly the victor over PLD, and even tho they lack the AOE vokes that PLD has their AOE attacks offer more consistant crowd controll as well as a viable DD for that situation. As far as overall survivabilty, PLD (as of now) undisputably takes top. The only thing keeping WAR a viable option for boss fights now is that they lack challange. As you clearly demistrated, almost anyone can tank in a boss fight. the next stage of my testing I intend to tank lvl 60-70 mobs on both jobs, if those prove to be too easy i will slowly progress up the lvls but once i find a mob worthy of the challange and deals consistant Magic and physical damage then We will test on that mob. But for now being able to afford two or more healers in a fight to keep an otherwise unqualified tank alive simply cuz the boss is a realativly easy fight dose not constitute staking a claim on that jobs as the "best" Tank, like i said each job has its arena, and thus far Main tank position on a 1v1 tank style fight gose undoubtly to PLD. Numbers dont lie. Please stay tuned for an extensive post with pure numbers and facts. On a side note, I think I am slowly finding that GLD may still hold the lead on main tank situation. PLD has some very usefull abilities no doubt, but the ability to regen full mp in a matter of seconds and taking minamul damage in the process , I think, will prove to be an asset that will be invaulable. (hint hint SE)

Um, I've tanked Ifrit on WAR and PLD and it's still more efficient on Ifrit. Just did an Ifrit in 6:20 today while tanking on WAR actually, never lost hate, and was able to contribute some decent DPS as well. BTW I also tanked Ifrit on WHM today. Yes, WHM, and I fraps'd it but a large chunk of the fight clipped out and I basically only got 5mins of fight and then me exiting the instance. It took a lot longer than the usual setups but it does work (not gonna lie, lacking provoke really sucked). To answer your question, yes this was done before this most recent patch and spell interruption rate is entirely irrelevant if you understand Ifrit's attack pattern and use Sanguine Rite appropriately (as well as having it cast on you).

CNJ is probably as if not more effective than PLD and WAR on something like Ifrit. If you want to talk single targets, CNJ tank is pretty much winsauce for many encounters out there. So if you want to talk about undisputed champion of tanking a single target, it's not PLD right now, ever.

Oh so you're just finding out that GLA takes the cake over PLD. Wow dude, when did you start playing this game? And have you glossed over every post that says the same thing in the half dozen threads you've posted your "findings" in? You place far too much emphasis on parse results. You fail to realize that said results are relative. All your experience comes from PUGs, not from organized, high-end linkshell activity. In your little parse, your PLD tank might do 15% of total damage and you think "wow that's amazing!" but when your party setup is a bunch of terribly geared players who spent more time dying than fighting, how is that any kind of accurate test? (Please note I am not generalizing all PUGs are terrible, only that they are far less consistent than parsing yourself with the same 8 players repeatedly who are skilled, well-geared, understand fight mechanics, and don't die ever.) What I am saying is that these parses you do are irrelevant. They provide poor points of reference for your argument and are subjective at best.

You know what though... you can go out there and fight level 60-70 mobs and just keep increasing the levels. You'll find there comes a point in that where the dLvL will be a much larger difference in the damage you take than your defense. The HP you have will be the only buffer between you and death and it won't really matter what job you're on because none will be able to sustain themselves for any viable amount of "testing time" you'll want to throw at it. It's gonna be a waste of time anyway since it's not a controlled, rewarding situation that you'll ever find yourself in at the end game. In other words, there's nothing to gain from such empty knowledge when the game itself does not implore you to battle in such unwinnable scenarios.

no actually my experiances come from LS events, as far as our gear, not many compete with our core group. soo your conclusion is not only speculative but it couldnt be any further from the truth? at what point did i ever mention i get my results from a pug, I simply indicated and ocasion in wich i witnessed a WAR tank ifrit and get HP drained fast as hell in full AF gear..
Further more, testing on high lvl mobs that pose more challange becuause they actually hit hard enough to put a dent in your theory that WAR rules supereme is not only not wasted time but is what you should expect from true end game content. You realy think a fight in wich a job like whm can tank the main boss is worth of "end game content" title? give me a break. Defend your precious WAR all you want bottom line is when people want a tank that can survive a true test of Tanking ability and not just simply contribute to a easly won speed run, then WAR will be put on the back burner , because war in fact DOSE NOT have the survivabilty that PLD or GLD do, and for the record you tanking on WHM has more to atriubte your team then you. If you honestly think for half a second , with a lesser team you could acomplish the same feat , your wrong, make the fight a challange, gimp it on purpose if you must, but dont come at me with 6 minute speed kills and claim thats sufficent evidance to proclaim anything but the fight is a cake walk. I guess you forgot about the 2 hour boss fights back when endgame content meant shit was hard and your tank had to have endurance and trully be able to TANK a boss , or maybe this wave of easy "endgame" content has made everyone forget the value of a tank that not only didnt take away from the party but enhanced it. WAR may do decent damage but THM/BLM is clearly the victor in that arena, not only that but war take 2 healers in most aplications. And god forbid the day when se brings back a boss in wich a tank can not use attack enhanced abilities to stay alive (Batrall). Troll all you want budy. But if SE ever throws a real fight at us, I hope you dont get out of practice with your PLD cuz your gona need it.

Seems like anyone who disagrees with you is a troll. You clearly have an undisputed case of tunnel vision.

It's official now. You're hopeless.