Tenacity

I'd like to stop being punished for trying to take less damage as a tank.

Thanks.

DRK literally have the best short-CD defensive ability in the game. Use that better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieneskaSanura

DRK literally have the best short-CD defensive ability in the game. Use that better

---

Short burst of offense power too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieneskaSanura

DRK literally have the best short-CD defensive ability in the game. Use that better

---

That whoosh sound was so loud I thought a plane flew over me.

You're not being punished. Tenacity is perfectly fine to meld if that is what you like. There isn't a massive dps gap between dhit and tenacity builds, but you will lose a bit a damage for more mitigation. That's just the trade off. Unless you're in world first races, it doesn't matter what you meld anyways.

Quote:

---

You're not being punished. Tenacity is perfectly fine to meld if that is what you like. There isn't a massive dps gap between dhit and tenacity builds, but you will lose a bit a damage for more mitigation. That's just the trade off. Unless you're in world first races, it doesn't matter what you meld anyways.

---

The bigger heals are compared to HP pools, the worse the defensive value of tenacity is. The actual amount of damage reduction you have to have to alter how healers heal is beyond what tenacity can provide, which means you're better off with one of the other options instead.

Its one of those great ideas that, in practice, doesnt work the way it should.

I like tenacity personally. It might not be BiS by any means but even if the actual mitigation it provides is minute, it makes me feel safer overall since I'm a pretty meh Tank when it comes to CD management. So everything that helps make me tankier is welcome in my book and to hell with everything else. Better then going unmelded, that's for sure.

I wish tenacity wasn't as much of a bad meme as parry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malmstrom

I'd like to stop being punished for trying to take less damage as a tank.

Thanks.

---

Ignore em bro. I've melded Tenacity for as long as I can remember and have Tanked Savage and countless EX Primals without any issues at all. There's a lot of poisonous individuals and extremists who play this game, just gonna tune em out ;)

I meld tenacity when I am leveling tanks in dungeons. Often I'm either a little undergeared, or the healer is, or the tank class hasn't gotten all its defensive CDs, so I find tenacity helps for that

They need to remove Det from tanks and make it a healer only substat. Tenacity needs to improve heals RECEIVED instead of heals done by yourself. That's a pretty glaring issue.

Make tanks take tenacity as their substat dump when they have nothing else to dump on.

Tenacity certainly isnt parry levels of bad, but its still pretty bad, unfortunately. Its only real use is for Ultimate prog as there is the infinitesimally small chance that you might survive something with it just barely, but otherwise its useless everywhere else, especially in dungeons and extreme trials where the damage is rather minimal and proper cooldown management (Read: being good at your class) should be the solution and not melding tenacity.

It is however, simply just the way its designed. It increases self healing, damage, and reduces damage taken, so understandably its weaker than DH or crit...But i mean, the game is designed in such a way that means that the only real threatening damage to tanks is tank busters, thats why healers can dps so much of the time.

One thing they could do, is removing tenacity as a substat built in to gear, and only have it available to meld, and beef it up a bit so then atleast there would be some decision making as to if it should be melded or not. They could also remove the extra damage done part, and make it a purely defensive stat...But that'd be very easy for it to fall in the same pitfalls parry did.

It was a good idea, Tencity, but as it currently is, it simply wasn't meant to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

They need to remove Det from tanks and make it a healer only substat.

Make tanks take tenacity as their substat dump when they have nothing else to dump on.

---

Why make tanks worse instead of tenacity better?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malmstrom

That whoosh sound was so loud I thought a plane flew over me.

---

Oh wow this was goooooood..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Tenacity certainly isnt parry levels of bad, but its still pretty bad, unfortunately.

---

There is like a 2% difference in dps between dhit and tenacity builds. That's a very small difference and you make it sound way worse than it actually is. Basically meld what you like, it doesn't really matter for 99% of the player base. This is obviously different for world firsts and everyone should be min/maxing the best they can on those.

Quote:

---

There is like a 2% difference in dps between dhit and tenacity builds. That's a very small difference

---

You lose damage, and gain enough mitigation to save your healer the equivalent of 1 heal every 13 casts, AT BEST. Which means chain pulling enough things to be hitting you 100% of the time, and ignores the reality of benediction, assize, regen ticks, asylum, scholar faerie, and other things that arent only direct heals.

If 14 used EQ or WoW's boss mechanics, tenacity would be great. I would trade significant amounts of damage to gain 8% more mitigation in EQ (thats the equivalent of 2-3 expansions worth of tank AA's) or during the first half of wow's lifetime. It does very little against tankbuster, wait, wait, melee, wait, wait, wait, ae, wait, wait, melee, wait, wait, ect. 14 doesnt stack boss tankbusters as an instant-cast ability it uses while hitting you 2-5 times a second for half your hp. It doesnt have raid bosses that can accidentally curbstomp your tank through a 50% mitigation cooldown when it crits them 6 times during your heal cast.

Tenacity isnt very good because you dont have to worry about random spike damage. If you can live through a tankbuster, or sometimes a tankbuster + 1 melee, congrats, you have enough hp and mitigation for that fight to never kill you.


IF you could stack enough tenacity to not need single target heals (at any time that time couldnt be better used) at all, and could be covered fully by AE's, regen pulses and incidental ae healing, it would be significantly better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheForce

Ignore em bro. I've melded Tenacity for as long as I can remember and have Tanked Savage and countless EX Primals without any issues at all. There's a lot of poisonous individuals and extremists who play this game, just gonna tune em out ;)

---

No one has ever said that you can't clear Savage or Ex with tenacity melds in the history of ever. Problem with tenacity is though does not give a big enough boost to defence and offence combined to make it worthwhile for most people.

Some good reads about tenacity can be found in a couple reddit posts from this year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_breakpoints/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...to_be_avoided/ (the comments sections)

And a quote with a couple good questions:

Quote:

---

• Will it reduce incoming damage to the point where healers gain enough GCDs to offset my loss in personal DPS?
  
• Will it reduce damage enough to stop me from dying?

---

I would go for tenacity myself if I found it worth it but instead I meld DH and Crit to help meet DPS checks since a lot of random DPS can't play their jobs at even a decent level as indicated by the boss hitting enrage. Most fights don't have difficult DPS checks to make if all the DPS played at a decent level but most random parties will have one (maybe two if lucky) superb DPS while the other DPS will have far below acceptable DPS levels. Been a fair few fight where we barely beat the boss by the skin of our teeth, a few times actually party wiping as we killed the boss but still counted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thamorian

No one has ever said that you can't clear Savage or Ex with tenacity melds in the history of ever. Problem with tenacity is though does not give a big enough boost to defence and offence combined to make it worthwhile for most people.

Some good reads about tenacity can be found in a couple reddit posts from this year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_breakpoints/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...to_be_avoided/ (the comments sections)

And a quote with a couple good questions:

---

I wish you were right about that, but I've met some individuals who unfortunately do believe that.

I feel like part of the reason tenacity doesn't add more to damage mitigation is the majority of the game appearing to be toned to hold people's hands. The enemies damage is scaled back in party duties because they don't want the squishy non tank people running the risk of getting 1 shotted when they stand in something they shouldn't or run off ahead when they shouldn't drawing aggro. Because of this more people get to the point they look at nothing but their DPS and don't bother with anything else. That said it hasn't stopped me from running skillspeed/tenacity melds with DH as the backup if I cant get full materia bonus on the first 2 stats. It just feels better to me. Then again I don't run a parse and don't really care about dps unless I'm in a situation where I can visibly see I am doing more damage as the tank than the DPS in my party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barraind

You lose damage, and gain enough mitigation to save your healer the equivalent of 1 heal every 13 casts, AT BEST.

---

Calling your bias, and requesting calculation on how many GCDs that 2% difference in damage makes.

If extra Tenacity only maybe saves the very occasional heal cast, I'd be willing to suspect extra Direct Hit only maybe saves you an occasional extra attack.

Basically, if your claim were flipped around, would it still hold just as true? "You gain mitigation, but lose enough damage to maybe require an extra hit from time to time to compensate."

Or, shorter, "The difference is minimal and rarely effects any outcome in the majority of content."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Calling your bias, and requesting calculation on how many GCDs that 2% difference in damage makes.

If extra Tenacity only maybe saves the very occasional heal cast, I'd be willing to suspect extra Direct Hit only maybe saves you an occasional extra attack.

Basically, if your claim were flipped around, would it still hold just as true? "You gain mitigation, but lose enough damage to maybe require an extra hit from time to time to compensate."

Or, shorter, "The difference is minimal and rarely effects any outcome in the majority of content."

---

2% is pretty big.

For context - Everyone in a party gains an extra 1% main stat gain for having one of each role in a party - Tank, Healer, Ranged, Caster, Melee. If you took 8 of the best players in the game, that 5% difference (1% for each role) would mean about 30-40 seconds in kill time.

So...2%, on a tank, sure, its not going to prevent you from clearing content, but it is simply silly to meld something sub optimal when you KNOW that tenacity is by and large a worse stat to meld and to priorities.
At the end of the day, Vitality, and by extension general ilvl is whats going to get you your biggest eHP increase. The difference between lvl 80 AF gear (ilvl 430) and raid gear (ilvl 470), 40 ilevels, is about...30k-40k flat health...However, the difference between ZERO tenacity and have as much as you can possibly have in game right now? It doesn't even breach 4 digits in terms of eHP as far as im aware.

So to summarise, having an extra few hundred eHP will not prevent a healer to have to heal you, the whole point of mitigation, and so it's just flat out better to take that 2% especially when you consider both grade 8 tenacity, and grade 8 dh/crit is bought for the same token, Cracked Stellaclusters...Not like there is much else to spend gil on in the game anyway, so even if that wasnt in the game it still wouldnt matter. If, for example, Tenacity allowed the healer to have to heal you a noticable ammount less, it'd be worth it, but it simply isn't.

It's also worth noting that tanks have 100% uptime on the boss, or atleast as much as is possible in any given fight. Healers, meanwhile, are casters and have to aoe heal the group and thus dont have 100% uptime. a 2% increase on tanks is simply vastly more valuable than even an equal 2% on healers, would that tenacity provide that.



....Also, Why is this thread in the General discussion, and not the tank roles subforum? Someone light the batmod signal.

If you fail to use your CD for tankburst in Savage you will die. Having 100 more tenacity or less will not change that.
Meanwhile you will get higher damage using DH over tenacity.


tenacity and det can be usefull in ultimate for prog when you're learning where the damage spikes are and such but there too you will die if you fail to use your CD. When going for the kill it's best to use your BiS materies anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

2% is pretty big.

---

Ok, but this is still largely framed from the perspective of "this doesn't really change the number of heals that will be needed." The closest you came is referencing how much difference this would make with the best most optimal players, across the entire party.

All I'm saying is, taking a step back, instead of looking at the heals, asking, for that one particular tank, and only the tank, with a "2% damage increase" for taking dhit over tenacity, what will be the difference in time or dps or apm or whatever you want to measure? Like, even just from a pure striking dummy attempt, SSS style. Pick a dummy, test each build, compare time, compare number of actions, gcds, whatever. Something tells me the difference will still be within margin of error, so to speak. Minimally influential, either way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Calling your bias, and requesting calculation on how many GCDs that 2% difference in damage makes.

If extra Tenacity only maybe saves the very occasional heal cast, I'd be willing to suspect extra Direct Hit only maybe saves you an occasional extra attack.

Basically, if your claim were flipped around, would it still hold just as true? "You gain mitigation, but lose enough damage to maybe require an extra hit from time to time to compensate."

Or, shorter, "The difference is minimal and rarely effects any outcome in the majority of content."

---

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...on-vs-Tank-DPS.

It's actually 1 in 17 heals at best.

Because of how mitigation stacks in this game:

In terms of raid tanking: A hit that does 160k pre-mitigation will do 128k to a tank. It will do 89.8k to a tank that uses a cooldown. It will do 85.1k to a tank that has stacked tenacity and popped a cooldown.

The actual effect of the most tenacity you can stack in this patch is, in practice, 15% of the value of the tank passive.

It takes roughly 700k base damage incoming to a tank using a single cooldown for the maximum amount of tenacity currently available to save one 700 potency heal.

This also ignores all incidental healing the tank will be taking. It also ignores heals that heal differently than x potency heal. It's the best case scenario for when tenacity is good.

I'm not saying the idea of tenacity isn't good. My tank in EQ takes 700k pre mitigation damage every 5-15 seconds when tanking. Id take 14s tenacity over half the stats on his gear. I'm saying it's not good in this game because damage packets dont work the way they need to for it to be good without significantly more mitigation on it.

If it doesnt realistically affect how a healer heals you, or how 2 healers time their cooldowns, its worse than just taking the damage boost.

@Whole thread: Translation: Tenacity sucks.

/thread?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Ok, but this is still largely framed from the perspective of "this doesn't really change the number of heals that will be needed." The closest you came is referencing how much difference this would make with the best most optimal players, across the entire party.

All I'm saying is, taking a step back, instead of looking at the heals, asking, for that one particular tank, and only the tank, with a "2% damage increase" for taking dhit over tenacity, what will be the difference in time or dps or apm or whatever you want to measure? Like, even just from a pure striking dummy attempt, SSS style. Pick a dummy, test each build, compare time, compare number of actions, gcds, whatever. Something tells me the difference will still be within margin of error, so to speak. Minimally influential, either way.

---

2% damage will be considerably higher than 2% mitigation because we attack far more frequently than any boss does. Regardless, damage will always be preferred over mitigation due to the latter having a threshold. Having more of the latter isn't going to accomplish anything whereas damage might. Even if it's by small margins. That can be the difference between a higher parse. And that matters more to most people.