DF EX is no where near "expert" difficulty. Difficulty needs to be increased, and same goes for Eden normal. It's too much of a jump in difficulty when entering Eden Savage. Eden normal should be at a difficulty where you feel comfortable jumping into savage.
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11-01-2019, 01:51 AMSaranadeDF EX is faceroll, Eden Normal is Faceroll and then savage gates players
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11-01-2019, 01:56 AMLacan
You make normal too difficult and you make the people asking for difficulty options for msq fights upset. Are you trying to give them anxiety OP?
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11-01-2019, 01:57 AMJWag12787Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
No. Eden Normal should be at a level that most players should be able to complete if they want to. SAVAGE should not.
Extreme Roulette is simply the 80s dungeons. Nothing more, nothing less. They just aren't in the standard roulette at this time.
Just my 2c. -
11-01-2019, 02:12 AMReinhardt_Azureheim
The bridge between Ex and Savage is there, its just that a lot of players do EX with minimum effort requirements only to get shocked when they can't do so in Savage.
The thing with savage as a whole is that it generally is unforgiving with mechanics when people are dead on the floor due to required presence of usually 8 players. Damage and healing requirements aren't as steep on floor 1 and 2, so there is plenty of room for error, while floor 3 and 4 generally expect you to know your role. -
11-01-2019, 02:21 AMFynlar
Savage isn't for everyone, so no.
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11-01-2019, 02:24 AMRoda
The gateway to savage is extreme primals. I'd say they're close enough for a beginner to gain confidence in the skills they need to learn savage.
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11-01-2019, 02:24 AMTheMightyMollusk
There is no Extreme roulette. Expert just means "current level cap dungeons".
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11-01-2019, 04:29 AMSerLukeI dunno there is getting extreme trials in mentor roullete ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
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11-01-2019, 06:44 AMGranyalaDefinitely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
It should be (and is) like this: Normal Primals -> Eden normal -> Ex Primals -> Eden savage.
Within savage you have a difficulty progression as well. The first one should be possible if you know how to play at, say 75% of a classes' potential. Esp later in the patch when you overgear stuff to a rather significant degree.
If you make normal harder, randomly thrown together DF groups would fail to clear it and all you'd have accomplished would be the pointless addition of another difficulty setting for organized groups.
BTW: It is savage. You are not supposed to feel comfortable when you are inexperienced. The mobs are supposed to wipe the floor with newcomers. -
11-01-2019, 08:40 AMDadbod
The place ether really need to add some mid tier difficulty is in 4 man content... there is simply no challenging 4 man stuff in the game and I think it would be content the highest % of the playerbase would enjoy who run out of stuff to do because they don’t savage.
I can totally agree there should be some level of difficulty between how easy 4 man dungeons are and how hard savage 8 man is.. -
11-01-2019, 08:45 AMDogempire
Normal is fine, it's meant to be a source of gear for people who don't do savage and don't have full tome gear, plus it's plenty difficult enough for people who aren't used to playing content at the savage level.
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11-01-2019, 09:26 AMNedkel
We should really have more difficulty levels and not like today where you have baby level and hardcore levels next to each other.
There should be normal > hard > savage -
11-01-2019, 09:34 AMNiyuka
The player base has been crying for nerfs to every piece of content, thats why everything is laughably easy and outdated on release except for a tiny handful of fights. I totally support giving the entire game a normal, well-designed difficulty curve, but apparently there are tons of max level players who feel its too much of a burden to press 1,2 AND 3 in that order. I mean, why do we even HAVE dungeons when they are autowin?
Savage is fine, the first fight actually could be harder IMO, and Eden in general is a very tame savage tier. Also, the FFXIV playerbase has regressed a LOT in terms of skill and determination (ARR and HW were so much better for their time than SB and ShB in terms of raid content), and the game is nerfed every single patch.
IMO, the training for rougher stuff needs to start at lvl cap dungeons. Mt. Gulg is actually a decent dungeon at normal gear levels for its level, and I think SE generally hit a good spot for the 71-79 dungeons. 80s dungeons shouldnt suddenly be faceroll afk runs, and I think we could go up the difficulty of Eden Normal a little too. People WILL learn, and they WILL get better. But if you train people to just wait for the next nerf, you are stuck with popoto players, and the rest will slowly leave the game, making you wonder where all the subscriptions went. -
11-01-2019, 09:47 AMLosara
The way I see it Savage raid > EX Primal > Normal mode raid. There is a noticeable gap between skill level required for each level so EX Primals do help with that gap.
I'd like the 24 player raids to be made harder if anything, my random PUG cleared the Nier raid in a single attempt no wipes. I really hope the next 24 player raid is alot more difficult. -
11-01-2019, 09:47 AMEnla
Normal raids are there to give mild raiding content to those who are primarily here for the story and whom want a low-investment way to gear up their classes. It has not, nor will ever be a measuring stick by which to judge your ability to jump into Savage. What does judge that to some extent is the Extremes, not the Expert Roulette which honestly should be renamed for how often people think it involves actual skill. It's just the newest dungeons to give people a roulette to get both tomes and gear upgrades in the quickest manner possible.
I also absolutely agree with Niyuka that the first fight in Eden could be 100% harder. Right now it's the odd man out of the tier. Though by that same token having an introductory first level to a tier isn't a bad thing. If people want to train to do better at Savage, it's the best place to start right now. -
11-01-2019, 11:12 AMSaranade
What I am trying to say is Eden normal in no way what soever prepares your for savage. I am sick of entering savage (in every single patch) and being asked "did you watch a video?" No. I didn't and I'm not going to. Like any other video game, you should be able to play perhaps a 'medium' or more difficult version of the normal tier of the raid to prepare you for what is savage.
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11-01-2019, 11:14 AMValkyrie_LennethThats more on the community than anything. You have to start with a raid tier if you want to avoid those. Or make your own parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
Plus, normal does show you a lot of the mechanics for savage, just not all of them. -
11-01-2019, 12:54 PMAomine1992
Well since E1s is just as easier as it’s normal counter part I fail to understand lol, your jump in difficulty is at E2s and that was only during week one cause knowing your rotation was absolutely necessary where is you can just slide by in E1s. Savage looses its novelty after the first couple of weeks.
Not even E4s is difficult so now is the time for uncomfortable people to get comfortable with savage so that they can jump in early during the next tier. Also patience is key I find casuals lack that one thing that sets them apart from the savage players. -
11-01-2019, 01:00 PMHyoMinParkAre you talking about Duty Roulette: Expert? Because that’s not supposed to be “extreme” difficulty; they’re just level-capped dungeons. It’s never been a difficult roulette—actually, level-capped dungeons are usually easier than the leveling dungeons due to how high gear scales in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
The difficulty for endgame content is usually something like this:
Expert dungeons > normal mode 8-man raids/24-man alliance raids > Extreme primals > Savage >>> Ultimate
If you’re wanting an entry into Savage content, start with Extreme primals. Not Expert dungeons or normal mode raids.
That’s because normal mode is not meant to be a stepping stone directly into Savage content—there’s content that exists that’s harder/more demanding than normal mode. It’s basically just another way for people to get budget gear if they don’t craft/don’t want to buy crafted gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
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11-01-2019, 02:09 PMGranyalaI'll be blunt: Well you should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
No one in a PuG wants to wait around for YOU to understand how it works, esp when 7 other people already accomplished the work and want to kill stuff.
If you want to go in blind, you need a guild group in which all 8 are okay with that / go in blind together. -
11-02-2019, 12:33 AMSaranade
I am not talking about going in 'blind' necessarily. The necessity of having to 'watch a video' just to play end game content brings unsatisfactory gameplay imo. Finding or joining a guild group where all 8 are okay with going in 'blind' isn't what im after either. The content should be progressive in a way that when you enter savage, you at least have a decent enough understanding of the mechanics that 'watching a video' should absolutely not be necessary.
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11-02-2019, 12:37 AMLacan
Just watch the video.
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11-02-2019, 12:43 AMHyoMinParkIf you want the full, blind experience, you’re about 14 weeks too late for that. Best time to get that experience in Savage is to PF the content Day 1. After the first week or so, PFs tend to ask for experience and knowledge to make the experience easier for the entire party. Sometimes you can find a blind prog PF, but they are not as common as the ones that ask for you to have knowledge of the fight—which is not a bad thing to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
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11-02-2019, 12:47 AMSaranadeI actually agree with you, and its actually what i am trying to point out as sort of a downfall of the game. Not everyone is jumping in savage day 1 (me for example). I very much enjoy difficult battles, but the 'go watch a video' or 'you need to know up to this phase' (even on day 2) is just not a good experience, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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11-02-2019, 12:50 AMHyoMinParkWell, that’s the mentality that NA Party Finder tends to have; personally, I stop running stuff blind after Week 1 because I don’t want to burden a party by being unknowledgeable. If you really want to guarantee late progression that’s completely blind, people have already suggested to you ways to find that: join an FC that is all about blind progression, or seek out a static that wants to do blind progression. But you’ve said you don’t want to do that, so I really don’t know what to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
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11-02-2019, 01:01 AMSaranadeI think im just honestly looking for a happy medium, that doesn't involve nerfing or echo. As I have stated, Eden normal really is a complete face roll, yes I agree with the above post that everyone should be able to beat it. I am just trying to suggest adding a difficulty tier right below savage that would help players feel confident or prepared for it whether or not they have watched a video.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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11-02-2019, 01:14 AMValkyrie_LennethI don't know that that is possible, other than making that tier savage but "doesn't kill you and boss has less hp but with all of the same mechanics". Which, from a raiders standpoint, would make the fights kind of boring. You would see an even bigger decrease in time to kill, as world first groups would run through the easier mode, learn all the mechanics, then go kill savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
Sure, those players learn mechanics quickly anyway, and it may not save that much time, but it would make savage less.... Well savage. The point isn't to know all of the mechanics before you do them.
You either A, have to know the mechanics ahead of time, which they'd have to show you in a lower tier, or B, still be stuck learning new mechanics cuz it's a harder fight. -
11-02-2019, 02:27 AMNedkelThere should be a hard mode where people could play savage difficulty but without enrage timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
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11-02-2019, 02:30 AMHyoMinParkThe difficulty tier below Savage is Extreme primals, not the normal mode. I already stated this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
Expert Roulette > Normal Mode Raids/24-man Raids > Extreme primals > Savage >>> Ultimate
That’s the difficulty tier in this game.
As long as it offers no rewards. Though, I see very little reason why people can’t go and actually practice the fights WITH the enrage. If you can’t kill the baby version within the Savage version’s enrage timer, you won’t clear the Savage version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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11-02-2019, 02:39 AMSaranade...You're completely missing the point though. Extreme primals while they are a fun and difficult do not progress you towards the mechanics involved in Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I also agree no rewards should be given with this different difficulty tier. -
11-02-2019, 02:55 AMForteNightshadeYou're essentially asking for a toned down version of Savage as an intermediate, which defeats the entire purpose of learning the fights in Savage itself. Normal exists both for story progress and a showcase of what Savage will offer without revealing everything. Adding a "practice" mode would make Savage even easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
EX Primal are the intended gate way into harder difficult for those wanting to go into Savage with more confidence. If you can do EX Primals, you're pretty much set for the first two Savage fights. -
11-02-2019, 02:59 AMHyoMinParkExcept, in a way they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
Speaking for this tier, E1N is virtually the same as E1S minus the orb phase is actually far easier to do in the latter. E2N has the same mechanics that are present in E2S; E2S just has more adds and more randomness in how they can spawn, Flare mechanics, and the final Quietus phase (which good groups don’t even see). E3N is virtually the same as E3S for the first half of the fight. The only things different between it and normal mode are the Tsunami mechanics, Stormy Horizon (which is basically just repeated AOE damage on the party), and Black Smokers (which good groups skip entirely). E4N has mechanics present in E4S, but E4S has Titan Maximum, which is a Savage-exclusive phase; in addition to a few additional mechanics in Phase 1 and Phase 3, but the normal mode mechanics are in there. There’s just more, harder mechanics you have to learn because this is harder content. That’s kind of the point of the content.
Last tier (Alphascape) was also a really good example of normal mode mechanics being present in the Savage equivalent. O9N and O9S were virtually identical—you just handled orb phase a bit differently. O10N and O10S were exactly the same, except Midgardsormr had a third pattern (2 flips formed an intercardinal cross). O11N had mechanics that O11S had, but O11S had back-to-back Starboard-Larboard (in addition to Pantocrator, and there were no Duty Actions in Savage). O12N, same thing.
When the developers design the normal mode raids, they actually design Savage first, and then remove mechanics and scale down damage for the normal modes. By this design, normal does prepare you for some of the mechanics involved in Savage; just not all of them. And I think that’s the way it should be: just like the old raids and Primals can prepare you mechanically for things you might see in the Ultimates, but not entirely.
And you actually can sometimes find EX mechanics in Savage—there is a mechanic in E2S that came from Sophia EX (a primal back in HW). The tumults and Earthen Fury in E4S come first from all the Titan iterations before it (Titan HM, Titan EX), as does Landslide: it just looks different in E4S, but serves the same purpose of “don’t stand in this or you are deader than a doornail”. They also prepare you for Savage content by being the only other content with things like enrage timers, making players understand the importance of DPS checks and personal damage output: if you cannot beat an Extreme primal’s enrage, you won’t beat a Savage boss’s enrage. So you probably shouldn’t discount the Extremes as much as you are. -
11-02-2019, 04:17 AMGranyalaThen no one will do it becase it is not worth their time when they can just watch a video as prep work and do the "real thing".Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranade
Seriously, either open PF groups yourself, so you can set the rules and find like minded folks, or get a static.
My static does it like this: first raid evening on a new boss we go in blind. After that, we expect people to know the general layout of the fight (personally I prefer written stuff over videos), so we can save time and work on specifics. We're having a hard enough time as is, beating stuff in a timely manner and figuring out every obscure mechanic for ourselves is beyond us and we accept that fact.