Good direction with SMN!

Now, next patch kill the Egi as permanent summons and give SMN a rotation based on summoning and using Egi attacks!

This though.

I've been saying for years that SMN's attacks should poof mini primals into existence for one-off attacks, with the actual summoner being less involved in the attacks.

I like this idea, it would make forgetting to summon the egis a thing of the past, and they could just put the auto attack power into their egi assaults, it would also open the door to new egis since the egi would be tied to the spell executed.

The only thing I would like if they take this approach is to make the egis a tad bigger 20%? And their egi assaults a bit flasher. Which shouldn't be such a big deal since they would only be in the field for their one attack and automatically be dismissed after.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

This though.

I've been saying for years that SMN's attacks should poof mini primals into existence for one-off attacks, with the actual summoner being less involved in the attacks.

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Sometimes I wonder how different it would be if they just replaced all Egis with Carbuncles full-time, and desynch'd Egi Assaults from your current summon.
Just 6 cooldowns with 2 charges apiece, 3 of each having shared CDs, each having different effects.
Give each a different Demi-Primal visual effect like Deathflare. 1 in each set for single-target (Shiva burst, Ifrit DoT), 1 in each set for AoE (Ramuh cleave, Garuda GTAoE), 1 in each set for utility (Levi shield, Titan stun).

Mechanically I don't see it being too different beyond hotbar space, and yet I also imagine the playerbase would complain less about SMN. Aside from those lore nuts, of course.

Or at this point completely yeet Egis and remplace them by demi ifrit/garuda/titan

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Or at this point completely yeet Egis and remplace them by demi ifrit/garuda/titan

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And make the class primarily built around going into trances and having the trances augment the rotation of the class depending on which demi is out. The trance design is actually very interesting if you imagine the possibilities introduced when they added FBT, even if FBT is a relatively simple change to the rotation, it is just the first foot in the door towards an amazing future.

The only thing really holding the devs back on such a future is the time it would take to implement it, which includes rewriting a significant section of lore centered around those awful pets.

They can keep Egi lore as it is but function as a lesser version of Demi if lore is really that important. Temporary summons you use during Demi summon downtime, no requirements to summon them like Bahamut or Phoenix. They share the same mechanics and buttons.

I really hope they blend both pets into a single interface because it personally bothers me how we need two separate buttons for Egi and Demi commands.
Still, they need to fix the annoying pet ghosting and very short distance limit between the caster and summon for temporary summons to move forward.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

They can keep Egi lore as it is but function as a lesser version of Demi if lore is really that important. Temporary summons you use during Demi summon downtime, no requirements to summon them like Bahamut or Phoenix. They share the same mechanics and buttons.

I really hope they blend both pets into a single interface because it personally bothers me how we need two separate buttons for Egi and Demi commands.
Still, they need to fix the annoying pet ghosting and very short distance limit between the caster and summon for temporary summons to move forward.

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My idea was to just make the carbuncles and egis low-level trances that slowly replaced each other as you level up. So you start with Carbuncles as ARC, graduate from those to egis, from egis to demis of the same primals, and eventually to the powerful demis like Bahamut and Phoenix. In some future they could be further upgraded into Ultima or Alexander (assuming Ultima even is a primal), or Odin or Shinryu. Or if we're feeling fancy, the place that shall not be named.

Then mix in a splattering of oGCD and GCD abilities that partially summon these things and the class will feel a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Or at this point completely yeet Egis and remplace them by demi ifrit/garuda/titan

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Agreed yet those egis it would be easier for SE to deal with the Demi temporary summons then it is with a permanent blob of essence lol after they delete the egis then SE can make a pet dedicated job but honestly SMN ain’t it lol

The lore wouldn't change that much if the Egis we obtain become CDs and we have to rotate between them

Since the "pet system" in this game at this point is so busted to the point of not even resembling a proper pet system anymore... I'd rather if they converted the Egis into temporary summons like the demis, so the SMN could really pull back its classical FF feel... Hopefully in 6.0 they'll go for that?

Also a bit sidetopic but... I'm not a SMN player at the moment, and was trying to check on the changes of the xpac. Can someone elucidate why Physick survived the ability prune? I tested that and still heals for almost nothing... it really doesn't make much sense that they left it like that.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Can someone elucidate why Physick survived the ability prune? I tested that and still heals for almost nothing... it really doesn't make much sense that they left it like that.

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It's also a mystery to us who actually play it. 5.0 SMN has a lot of questionable design choices.

Kill actual SMN and make it an Egi Trance gameplay wise class.

I like egis though. :(
And I don't particularly find tacking on endless, nearly identical demi phases every expansion to be all that interesting.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I like egis though. :(
And I don't particularly find tacking on endless, nearly identical demi phases every expansion to be all that interesting.

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Ideally you'd find a way to diversify the trances more in a way that fits the theme of whatever primal is out. Kind of like how DWT is just ruin spam, whereas FBT is a combo where you rock between 2 abilities.

Take that idea and just start running with it. Each trance can have its own mini-rotation, it just needs to be the actual focus of the class.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

It's also a mystery to us who actually play it. 5.0 SMN has a lot of questionable design choices.

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As a SCH main, it frustrates me a bit. SMN got to keep physic, which is literally useless on them,but SCH couldn't keep anything from ACN? Really?

As for SMN changes themselves. Will have to try them when I get home.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

As a SCH main, it frustrates me a bit. SMN got to keep physic, which is literally useless on them,but SCH couldn't keep anything from ACN? Really?

As for SMN changes themselves. Will have to try them when I get home.

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Incorrect. They share energy drain, ruin 2, and bio as well

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Incorrect. They share energy drain, ruin 2, and bio as well

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Incorrect. Scholar uses a unique scholar-only version of all of those spells.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Incorrect. Scholar uses a unique scholar-only version of all of those spells.

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Has done for multiple expansion now tbh, you only had to look at SMN physick doing no healing but SCH's ruin 2 doing decent damage to realize something was going on behind the scenes.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Ideally you'd find a way to diversify the trances more in a way that fits the theme of whatever primal is out. Kind of like how DWT is just ruin spam, whereas FBT is a combo where you rock between 2 abilities.

Take that idea and just start running with it. Each trance can have its own mini-rotation, it just needs to be the actual focus of the class.

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I've been trying to visualize the traditional SMN of FF and it's rotation but was having difficulty. Mini-rotations really clicked with me though and I think that can really work well. The Phoenix's single to AOE combo was a step in the right direction. So, just a thought, Phoenix could later be upgraded to a 3 or 4 tier combo (not counting Enkindle), allowing it to stay out longer. Or maybe it would work where the summoned primal takes even more precedence, replacing a majority of your rotation temporarily. Almost as if you became the summon itself for a bit. Say, for example, for 30 seconds you are going through a 5 or 6 tier rotation AS Bahamut, sort-of. So instead of Bahamut changing back into an egi, it would change back into you, or at least give you back control of your normal hotbar.

Sort of joking, sort of not, I hope when they get rid of Egi's they give them to us as minions.

No. That's a terrible idea and you and anyone who supports it should be ashamed of yourselves. A lot of us are coming off of Final Fantasy XI's summons, and this FINALLY takes us a step in that direction. Quit trying to screw that up with stupid suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

No. That's a terrible idea and you and anyone who supports it should be ashamed of yourselves. A lot of us are coming off of Final Fantasy XI's summons, and this FINALLY takes us a step in that direction. Quit trying to screw that up with stupid suggestions.

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Then go play FFXI. Some people actually like XIV's incarnation. Wow its almost like people have different opinions. That's amazing. Who could have ever known?

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

No. That's a terrible idea and you and anyone who supports it should be ashamed of yourselves. A lot of us are coming off of Final Fantasy XI's summons, and this FINALLY takes us a step in that direction. Quit trying to screw that up with stupid suggestions.

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Yeah check yourself dude. Their are plenty of viable reasons of why certain mechanics need to be pulled away from summoners, and egis being the biggest pain point of the class and massively over shadowed by Demi's makes them a prime target to either be a) removed entirely or b) become a low level only ability. The fact of the matter is that summoner needs to have the fat trimmed from some areas and then added to present mechanics and linked so that their kit feels more cohesive and builds upon itself. This doesn't mean egi's need to be the one to go. It could be the Demi's, it could be the dots, it could be the aetherflow mechanics, it could be the oGCD's, it could be the utility. It could be a combination of several. But it has to happen, SMN in it's current state has the most disjointed kit of any Damage Dealer in the game. Half of it's mechanics literally have nothing that actively works together and builds upon each other. The jobs is trying to cram the very different identities of 4 separate expansions into one and it is suffering because of it. 5.1 has certainly made the job playable, but of all the DPS no other job is in as desperate need of a top down rework.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

No. That's a terrible idea and you and anyone who supports it should be ashamed of yourselves. A lot of us are coming off of Final Fantasy XI's summons, and this FINALLY takes us a step in that direction. Quit trying to screw that up with stupid suggestions.

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uh this isn't FFXI

I used to be pretty in favour of keeping the egi, but I could get on board with replacing them with trance/demi combos:

Inferno/Vortex/Crag trance, share a cooldown timer. Channel Ifrit while demi-Ifrit does his thing. (or Garuda, or Titan.)
into
Firebird trance.
into
Dreadwyrm trance.

Sorry guys, you're never going to convince me Phoenix is an upgrade from Bahamut.

Is it bad that I'd rather the aetherflow mechanics be removed? Or at least changed into more pet centric mechanics? At this point Aetherflow feels more like a SCH thing then a SMN thing.

Smn is at its best its ever been, gameplay, eggi & command responsiveness, overall Dps etc..

sure, every class can be improved on, but atm (aside of Bahamut / Phönix moving and not shooting), Smn feels good and strong

I don't think it is possible to remove egis, as that would require rewriting and remaking some of the SMN quests that involve or explain egis. If you change egis to temp summons, that means the 62+ quests that involve those SMN trainees and their egis would need to be redone to fit the new concept/mechanics.

Since I am a fan of redesigns when things don't quite fit and like to fantasize, I'll give some suggestions for a SMN design:

- Core of the design being SMN + Carbuncle: Carbuncle persists and acts as a source of supplemental damage and a way the SMN can protect themselves (for example, they'd get an ability to temporarily dismiss Carby to gain a substantial damage resistance buff, not unlike how SCH can dismiss the fairy to get a boost to healing output).
- Egis are connected to specific abilities: Much like the summons in the console FFs, egis appear only to perform a specific task and then vanish. Unlike the console FF summons, the abilities are not high-damage AoEs, but instead vary in effect and utility. For example, SMN might get a skill called Searing Wind that summons Ifrit-egi to cast it on a mob, applying a less powerful version of the mechanic from Ifrit EX (debuff that deals AoE damage over time). Likewise they might have an ability called Icebrand that summons Shiva-egi to deal frontal cone damage (unless we want to give SMN Icicle Impact with its vulnerability debuff). These skills could have their own separate cooldowns, or could share cooldowns depending on how they're tuned. They could also cost Aetherflow stacks if that is a better way to control their use. In this regard, SMN would function more like how Ultima Weapon uses primal abilities.
- Egi "abilities" could be upgrades to existing ACN/SMN skills: You could have something like Fester be replaced by Thunderspark (Ramuh-egi) after a certain point in the questline, which much like Fester gets a bonus on targets affected by Bio and Miasma and deals higher single-target damage. My approach would be 3 egi abilities as upgrades to existing ACN skills, and 3 egi abilities that are something brand new.

This would be designed in tandem with the trances currently in place, helping delineate the "tiers" in summoning. That said, it would take a colossal amount of work to make something like this happen.

Love SMN. Good job SE!